User talk:Lambiam/Archive 23

Proposed deletion of Google hit


The article Google hit has been proposed for deletion. The proposed deletion notice added to the article should explain why.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on |the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Laber□T 08:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive note (Hello, I'm Lambiam. I wanted to let you know that one) I am learning to edit and hopefully helping as time passes. You help is welcomed greatly. Thank you again. Orangecones (talk) 03:47, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Page mover granted
Hello, Lambiam. Your account has been [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=User%3A granted] the "extendedmover" user right, either following a request for it or demonstrating familiarity with working with article names and moving pages. You are now able to rename pages without leaving behind a redirect, and move subpages when moving the parent page(s).

Please take a moment to review Page mover for more information on this user right, especially the criteria for moving pages without leaving redirect. Please remember to follow post-move cleanup procedures and make link corrections where necessary, including broken double-redirects when  is used. This can be done using Special:WhatLinksHere. It is also very important that no one else be allowed to access your account, so you should consider taking a few moments to secure your password. As with all user rights, be aware that if abused, or used in controversial ways without consensus, your page mover status can be revoked.

Useful links:
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If you do not want the page mover right anymore, post here, or just let me know. Thank you, and happy editing! S warm  ♠  20:07, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Echoes of Cohen Cruse ruse?
Hey there- remember me? Well, I monitor the Cruse family page and happened to notice an edit (subsequently reverted) that changed "protestant family" to "Jewish family". Naturally, given past events, my ears perked up.

And what do you know, the user who made the original edit is from Florida, and has edited pages for NC synagogues: Special:Contributions/66.64.215.170. A brief review of the user's edits led me to think that most of them are OK, but I found one that is suspect: see this one, the unsourced addition of a Cohen banking family and a Cohen Count. Further poking around reveals that a different user, Special:Contributions/71.68.11.108 has added this same new Monegasque Count Cohen to the Court Jew page. (Diff here.) That same user has a number of edits that seem to attempt to link this Cohen to the Rothschilds. Moreover, the user also made this troubling edit, removing sourced material about the same Jonathan Cohen who was tied up in the ruse the first time.

So I fear we're back in business. I don't have time to deal with this right now, but I should in the next week or so. I am not deleting any of this just yet because it will be easier for me to track, but I figured I'd write it down, and writing you a note about it is a good way to record my thoughts. Luckily, I don't think our hoaxer is nearly as active or aggressive this time around. But - heads up. --Vivisel (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, it looks very suspicious. I'll also have a closer look but on the face of it this smells like the same fox being up to his old tricks. --Lambiam 22:20, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Zhongxing Railway Station (Dujiangyan) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Zhongxing Railway Station (Dujiangyan) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Zhongxing Railway Station (Dujiangyan) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Snood1205 (talk) 01:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Reference errors on 14 February
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. as follows: Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/RBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/RBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=ReferenceBot%20–%20&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * On the For Want of a Nail page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=765523304 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F765523304%7CFor Want of a Nail%5D%5D Ask for help])

Pronounce For Page
Hello User:Lambiam, just seen the great contributions you've made to Molyneux page. Could you do pronouciation for Maiorana page please? Would be a great benefit to page and I'd appreciate your help :) Here's a link that mentions Maiorana pronunciation, basically pronounced "My-er-ra-na", but is often mispronounced in Wigan and Lancashire as "May-er-ra-na". Here's a map for surname, can you add a small bit about it's stronghold in Wales and north England please, it's in the list of the top 200 Most Common Surnames in Wigan. Thanks--Theo Mandela (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Like most Italian words and names, the Italian pronunciation of Maiorana is exactly as you would expect, so I see little reason to include this pronunciation in the article. When an originally foreign name becomes entrenched in another country, its pronunciation will naturally be adapted to the local phonology, possibly influenced by the interaction with the local orthography, like the Peruvian pronunciation of Fujimori. I would not label that as mispronouncing. As to the prevalence of the name in Wigan, unless we have a reliable source explicitly discussing this, it does not seem sufficiently remarkable to me to warrant a mention. --Lambiam 12:21, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright, I trust what you think, but what about Gallagher (surname)? In the Etymology section it talks about it's original Irish pronunciation and the English mispronunciation. Gallagher (surname) has a much bigger article about it than Maiorana though, even has a map of it's prevalence in Britain. Being Wigan, I don't think you'll find much reliable sources for surnames, but so far could find these, , .--Theo Mandela (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The Gallagher (surname) article only compares the (English) pronunciations of the anglicised version of the name in Ireland and outside Ireland. Of the sources you mention, only The Grauniad counts as a reliable source, but the article does not discuss the name Maiorana; it only establishes that the name does occur – although in Wrightington, still some distance from Wigan. --Lambiam 21:43, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Re: Gebrochts
What I added was the Yiddish pronunciation. I just used a German template. I'll go and changed it to the Yiddish one. Heepman1997 (talk) 15:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Norman name
Hi User:Lambiam, could you make a contribution to Maiorana page please? That the name was first used by the Normans (see this Norman coat of arms with Norman symbol Fleur-de-lis and here ) because of the Norman conquest of southern Italy. Thank you 👍--Theo Mandela (talk) 10:51, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure ItalyHeritage counts as a reliable source in the sense of Wikipedia, in particular if it is the sole source. I saw no "About Us" or other information on who is responsible for the content of the site. A better source may be this: Della Calabria illustrata, which is a reprint of an 18th-century text. The description of the family coat of arms given there on p. 326 is in agreement with the image provided by the Roman Heraldrys Institute.
 * But why don't you add the information yourself? After all, it is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. --Lambiam 15:33, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Well User:Lambiam, I know you would phrase it perfectly, phrasing and where to put comas, etc. is not my strong point, I'd rather you, with a history of beneficial edits do it, so that it comes out perfect, if it's ok with you. Also I can't speak Italian, so could you tell me does the google books source say it's Norman? I figured "famiglia francese" means "french family". Thanks.--Theo Mandela (talk) 08:20, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Italian either, but I've had French at school. What I read on page 325 is that there have been two "waves" of Marogani migrating to Italy. The first, a lesser-known one, supposedly took place in the time of Charlemagne when he sent people to aid Pope Adrian I in his struggle against the Lombards, which would place this shortly after 772. (The book has 9th century, which can't be right.) The second wave was in 1260 when many feudal lords followed Manfred from France in his (ultimately unsuccessful) fight against Charles of Anjou.
 * The timing of either wave is not consistent with that of the Norman conquest of southern Italy, in which the Normans arrived in Italy at the start of the second millenium. The book does not use the term "Norman" and says nothing suggesting that the French Marogani were specifically Norman. If the book is correct with its (unsourced) claim that some Marogani came from France to Italy around 772, there must have been Marogani in France before the Normans invaded there: the first known Viking attack in France (on the Seine) took place only in 820, and the first land grant to Vikings, growing into the later Duchy of Normandy, is probably from 911. You mention de fleur-de-lis as being a Norman symbol, but as far as I know it is associated with the French monarchs as successors of the Frankish kings and in no way specifically Norman. Do you have a source for the family being of Norman heritage?
 * I think you should just muster the courage to add material yourself, as long as you make sure not to commit the sin of original research but provide reliable sources for all claims you insert. It doesn't have to come out perfect the first time. What has made and keeps Wikipedia great is that anyone can edit it, and that, provided your additions have encyclopedic value, other editors will step in and improve spelling, grammar and punctuation. --Lambiam 10:22, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Lambiam, so what I think you are saying is that in the same way the Manchester name Molyneux is really French, the Naples name Maiorana is also really French (but not Norman). Do you think this is a genuine origin for the name or you don't want to put it there? I also think it should be mentioned that the name is in the 200 most common surnames in Wigan list. As I've said It's really not right for me to do this kind of edit myself, but I see what you mean about anyone can edit if they have sources.--Theo Mandela (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't get why you feel it's not right for you to do this kind of edit. As the article already presents two theories for the origin of the name, it may be better to add a third paragraph to that section saying something like "A third candidate is that the name is French in origin." and that the name changed from Marogana (or Marogano) to the more easily pronounceable Maiorana (or Maiorano), possibly influenced by folk etymology (page 326). On that page the book also states that the fleur-de-lis in the coat of arms of the family also indicates a French origin.  --Lambiam 15:33, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Lambiam, I just don't do edits on that scale, because more than likely no one will edit the page for many months, leaving my mistakes (that become Wikipedia's mistakes) on show (not saying I never will). You've just shown me you can add the new info, please edit it into the page, but you'd have to add a French surname category and change "Maiorana is an Italian surname" to "Maiorana is a Norman French surname". I'd definitely appreciate it greatly, but if you really don't want to I've got to ask someone else like User:Ceyockey and would rather not.--Theo Mandela (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

How's it going?
By the way, User:Lambiam you've got the go-a-head to make that edit to Maiorana, how is it going? Please let me know. Molyneux and Banister (surname) are good examples of Norman name article layouts 👍--Theo Mandela (talk) 21:18, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm very busy with other things, some of which are much more important. If I get around to it at all, it will not be in the next couple of weeks. --Lambiam 20:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Well User:Lambiam thanks for letting me know. Just remember that you should blank what's there (since the Norman source contradicts it) and replace it with Norman French categories, etc.--Theo Mandela (talk) 17:21, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If several equally reliable sources contradict each other about certain facts, then it is generally best to report on all versions. But I'm not sure at all that ItalyHeritage is a reliable source, and no other source that I know of suggests a Norman origin. --Lambiam 18:56, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually ItalyHeritage does not suggest that either. They just say, "a French family". --Lambiam 19:43, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Lambiam Is that where it's from? ItalyHeritage? You showed me a Google Books source though. Again, if you need inspiration I think Molyneux, Banister (surname) and Turner (surname) are good examples of Norman articles.--Theo Mandela (talk) 23:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * ItalyHeritage was the second external link you yourself inserted in your posting above. I have no idea where the idea comes from this is a Norman name. As far as I know you are the sole source of this claim. --Lambiam 09:39, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * No, User:Lambiam, this is a well known fact that it is a Norman name (ItalyHeritage, Google Books) the sources mention fleur-de-lis and how it arrived with Norman conquest.--Theo Mandela (talk) 22:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Anyway, User:Lambiam, it looks like no one is going to make this edit and the Maiorana page will always be incorrectly listed as Italian, when it is, in fact, French.--Theo Mandela (talk) 23:01, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Turn into reference
Hi User:Lambiam, how would you turn this, into a reference on a page please? --Theo Mandela (talk) 20:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Like this (between  and  ):
 * --Lambiam 17:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that User:Lambiam.--Theo Mandela (talk) 20:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that User:Lambiam.--Theo Mandela (talk) 20:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Page review
User:Lambiam, I made an edit to Maiorana page and hope you can have a look at it and make changes if needed, not sure if links are need in "surname" and "Norman French" for example, but if you can correct any mistake I made, follow example of good surname pages please like: Evans (surname) • Howard (surname) --Theo Mandela (talk) 04:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Help a page
User:Lambiam, can you please take a look at Maiorana page and add/remove links, rephrase, sort categories and remove/rephrase sections (whatever you feel is necessary really), looked after like other articles (Howard (surname, etc.)? Thanks, --Theo Mandela (talk) 23:54, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Reading Italian
Hi again User:Lambiam, can you please tell me what that source said in Italian, and how you would phrase it as info? And are my edits to Maiorana page ok?--Theo Mandela (talk) 05:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Turn into reference II
Hi User:Lambiam, How can I turn this into a reference on a page?--Theo Mandela (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Faisal Arefin Dipan for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Faisal Arefin Dipan is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Faisal Arefin Dipan until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. ~ Moheen  (keep talking) 06:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)