User talk:Lar/Archive 24

An old contibutor is back
Hi Lar

Sorry to bother you with this, but it looks like Commanche CPH has returned, this time as an IP account. The same IP edited his own userpage months ago and he has already started smearing both User:Inge and myself in both cases accusing us of POV-pushing (see the edit history of Normans and my talk page.) Do you have any good suggestions? Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 08:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems highly likely to me that User:Comanche cph is back editing under User:194.255.124.250 contributions. Problems have started arising sourounding the usual topics and several warnings have been issued from multiple users, among other thing for two cases of vandalising a user page history of that page. I really don't want us to have to go through that old mess one more time... What do you suggest? Inge 11:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoops! Now I see others too look to you for help in this matter. I used the + button. Sorry for duplicating the above post. Just delete mine if you want. Inge 11:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries and need to delete. I just squished the threads together :) I will take a look but it may be a while before I get to it. For faster results, if it's urgent and ongoing, you may want to write this up at the Administrators noticeboard, using the info you've both presented here. Meanwhile I'd suggest just remaining calm and collegial as you have been. And, meanwhile... by all means if the material the IP is leaving on your talk pages is objectionable you ought to feel free to just revert it away without comment. Sorry if that's not more immediate help. I will look at this in a few hours and if it's as bad as you say and the IP isn't already blocked, the IP will be shortly, regardless of whether it's Comanche_CPH or not. ++Lar: t/c 12:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry to jump in out of nowhere, but Valentinian and Inge left me a note about this particular IP, too. I reverted a vandalism edit done to Valentinian's page and he noticed I was an admin, too.  Do you mind if I defer to you for resolution about this to you since I'm not familiar with Comanche cph? -- Gogo Dodo 18:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at all. I'll look into it. ++Lar: t/c 00:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Lar. Terribly sorry about not noticing that Gogo Dodo had referred this one to you. I've left a few more details on Gogo's talk page which you mind find interesting. Best. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries about that... I have been looking at this IP's contribs, but haven't actually done anything yet... will try to either tonite or early tomorrow morning. Do you know if anyone has yet written this up at WP:RFCU or WP:AN/I??? the CU may not be doable, the edits from Comanche are stale I think, they need to be in the last 30 days. ++Lar: t/c 00:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pattern of edits matches, I agree. No need for a check user. Rolf is a dead giveaway. However, here's the funny thing... Comanche is not currently blocked and could edit if he wanted to. So if this IP gets blocked it would not be for sock-ery, it would be for the vandalism, tendentiousness, and trolling... Right now this IP is at "last warning" so I'll watch and will act if needed. Ping me if I'm not on the ball about it. Thanks for the research. ++Lar: t/c 00:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS (again) note that some of this IP's edits are at least OK... for example the edit to Laudrup. It had spelling mistakes and non native english word choices but was a sound edit. That was the last edit from that IP. ++Lar: t/c 00:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to find a solution to this. I got a preatty good hunch as to who we were dealing with after the edit summary to this diff. I had not been warned by anyone of such a thing except from Comanche when he got fed up with the warnings he got. The edits to Once Upon a Time in the West aren't too bad either if they are correct. This fits in with the same old pattern. The Comanche acount also gave some usable edits, but the disruption isn't worth it in my view. It ranges from this to this and just isn't helpful. (I feel this essay might have some good points.) Inge 00:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 24h. his talk and Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. Let's see if that does the trick. If not, we'll block for longer I am sure. It's an anon only block, so Comanche (or whoever) can still log in and edit. ++Lar: t/c 14:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Terribly sorry to waste your time with this nonsense. I hope you're right but I wouldn't bet good money on it. We know for a fact that the IP is 1) interested in the definition of Scandinavia, 2) ditto in the story about Hrolf Ganger / Rollo, 3) resents Inge and me and smears us both, and 4) speaks Danish. All in all, there is no reason to doubt that it isn't indeed Comanche. The Danish community on this Wikipedia is very small, and the pattern isn't even close to fitting anybody else. If he continues to mess with my user page, I'll ask somebody to semi protect it. Btw, I reserve the right to remove the more trollish comments from my talk page. As I understand policy, doing so is allowed, if it isn't please drop me a note. Have a nice weekend.  Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 17:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We tend to block IPs for shorter times due to the collateral damage aspects. We can reblock if necessary. If your userpage is messed with further I'll be happy to semiprotect, just let me know. It certainly is allowed by policy. ++Lar: t/c 17:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pattern recurred so I reblocked, a week this time, anon only, account creation not prevented. ++Lar: t/c 04:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pattern recurred, plus penis vandalism, so I reblocked, this time for a month. As before, anon only, account creation not prevented. ++Lar: t/c 18:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Response from
You cannot just follow me around, attack me personally, blanket revert all my painstaking editing work, and just feel you can intimidate me any time you want. I am reporting administrator abuse to the noticeboard.--- EnglishEfternamn  talkcontribs 01:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I always welcome review of my actions, and usually post there myself after a block. ++Lar: t/c 01:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, you can find a solicitation for review of my actions (after a block, as it turns out), on this WP:ANI thread. ++Lar: t/c 03:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

EnglishEfternamn and WP:POINT
Hi Lar. I've just reported EnglishEfternamn to the administrators' noticeboard because of his unrelenting violation of WP:POINT. His last two edits to the socialism article, in which he again replaced all American English spellings with British English spellings for no reason, were the final straw for me. I thought that you'd like to comment given your involvement with him. -- WGee 02:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Very thorough report (see just above, you've done his work for him as he was just about to complain there, apparently) I will comment on AN/I. ++Lar: t/c 02:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your help! I especially appreciate that you are willing to monitor him after the block expires. -- WGee 04:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Notification of posting on WP:AN/I
This is a notification: I am just letting you know that I have just reported you on the administrator noticeboard for actions I have found to be adminisrator abuse. Take this time to talk in your own defense, etc. Have a good evening. EnglishEfternamn  talkcontribs 04:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw that, thanks for letting me know. I also saw the response to it. I also saw the response to the original report by WGee. (note that you probably should have followed up instead of starting a new thread.. following our norms gets people to think better of you in the long run) It, to me anyway, looks like consensus is there that the block was in order, since no one spoke out critisising my actions (extraordinarily patient was one of the phrases used to describe them, as I recall). Hopefully you will take the feedback on board going forward and be a more productive contributor. ++Lar: t/c 15:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Further disruptions
EnglishEfternamn is not off to a good start since his block has expired  . -- WGee 04:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. I saw your message on his talk as well. If I may advise, just point out the issues with the edits and leave the "or you will be blocked" out. I think he gets that point now. I've tried offering to help him be a better editor if he wants the help, so we'll see. ++Lar: t/c 12:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Since he relapsed into his disruptive behaviour immediately after the block expired, I was not convinced that he understood the consequences. But for now, you're right that I should be less confrontational in my messages to him, though sometimes I betray my frustration. -- WGee 17:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * WGee, I have found that that is the goal of most users who practice such disruption--to bait you into "betraying your frustration". (I speak from experience, having "lost it" once myself when dealing with this particular user). 172 gave some good advice] when he said "Don't abuse yourself by responding" to pure disruption.  Just relax, count to 10 and keep your discussion on topic and he'll move on or be dealt with by an admin.--[[User:WilliamThweatt|WilliamThweatt] 22:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not ready to write this user off, just yet, but what is great about that advice, WilliamThweatt, is that it doesn't violate the assumption of good faith, it works just as well whether someone is, or isn't, disrupting on purpose. So I sure do endorse it! ++Lar: t/c 22:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've received some good advice from all of you recently. Thanks. -- WGee 02:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:AlticorLogo.jpg)
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admin irc channel
I see you can give me an invite to the IRC admin channel? What do I need to do to get that from you? Thanks -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I need to validate you are who you say you are. There are several ways. Catch me on IRC and we'll discuss further. ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What is the best way to do that? what channel are you on most?  what is your IRC nick? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 22:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All my nicks start with Lar. find me when I'm around, as you did, is the best way. ++Lar: t/c 22:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your Great Work!
Looking at the different items on your talk page, it is obvious that you are a valued Wikipedian, as an Fantastic Article Writer and knowledgeable Administrator. But that just begins to scratch the surface regarding the important work you do. Several Wikiprojects benefit from your time and effort. Additionally you are active in assisting users by answering their questions about IRC, images, and many other topics. And you are also active on Commons, OTRS, and Meta. Lar, your work is Truly making a difference and helping make possible my dream to make all knowledge free to the world. Have a Great Day :) Take care, FloNight 06:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Beatles Newsletter 010...
...is ready for your contribution re "This May Be The Last (Beatle) Newsletter You Will Ever Receive" list thingy. Then sending. lummee, if its 'im then it must be... 22:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be a day before I get to do the delivery on this one (if you guys haven't quite sorted out how to do it yet.. :) ++Lar: t/c 03:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, us guys have not sorted this out... I have left a space at the end of Project News if you want to say anything about the removing of people from the mailing list; otherwise it is ready to go. If you don't want to say anything just delete it. I really would be grateful if it could be done by the end of this weekend (?!). LessHeard vanU 21:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC) "I would hassle Jimbo if I thought it would get things done..."
 * I'll see what I can do about delivering it soon. I put the explanation about the lists and pruning and suchlike in where you left me the spot for it, cheers for that. I also fiddled with the column widths a bit to make it balanced and tweaked a word here and there. Who's lead? you need to sort that before it goes. I say you, I detect your hand in it strongly (the bit about not getting a nFish was a dead giveaway, mate...) so unless you sort it, I'll just stick you with it just before delivery (maniacal cackle) ++Lar: t/c 22:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * On a serious note, I really do not like the appellation Lead. I've just put the editors in the order in which they contributed. If other editors are so la zy x as to let me wibble on... Oh, and thanks (yet again)! LessHeard vanU 22:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair'nuff mate. ++Lar: t/c 22:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

New Notification
Please go here. You may be pleasantly surprised.-- EnglishEfternamn  talkcontribs 03:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw it, and I was indeed pleasantly surprised. I will comment, if those comments would be welcomed... ++Lar: t/c 03:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a quick question, Redvers stated in the edit review that my block record and history or disputes does not preclude adminship. Does this mean I can never become an administrator?-- EnglishEfternamn  talkcontribs 20:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it does not mean that. (Preclude may shed some light) What it does mean though is that you have some history to overcome first. You certainly can become an admin with a block record, people have started out in a rocky fashion and gone on to be admins, but you have to work harder than if you didn't have some of that in your past history. If you truly do turn things around to where you get lots of people giving you barnstars and praise... heck, I'd nom you myself. But you have a far road to travel first, I think. It's doable, but it will take thoughtfulness. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Sweden page
I would take a look at the history of the Sweden page. In the past few days, there has been a pretty considerable wave of WP:vandalism against it; this is making it very difficult for serious editors to contribute. I don't know if this is the right way to ask you, but do you think protecting the page would be a good idea? -- EnglishEfternamn  talkcontribs 00:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We tend to only protect if the vandalism is egregious. See above on my talk page, we have had some incidents in the past. I'd say if you spot what is clear vandalism (and not a content dispute) you should revert it yourself... Valentinian is very aware of this page and is a good person to rely on to tell where a good spot to revert to is. There does seem to be a fair bit of IP vandalism though. Perhaps a semiprotect might be warranted for a little while so I gave it 12 hours, let's see if that helps. As always my actions are subject to review. The "proper" place to have brought this would be the requests for page protection page, but I've had some awareness of problems on Sweden before, so this should be fine too. Hope that helps, happy editing. ++Lar: t/c 01:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Grove Dictionary
Have emailed you ref: access. - Foxhill 15:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I got it. You're aces. Will NOT hand this out to ANYONE, that's for you to do. ++Lar: t/c 16:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

More of Comanche's vandalism
I can see that you've already been there but I've had it with Comanche's vandal-only IP. I'm getting more and more convinced that his "Laudrup" edit was the only sane thing that came out of that account. To top everything off, his last message to my talk page is Danish for "suck daddy's cock"., and apparently he must find his behaviour amusing. And this edit to Inge's page means: "I've brought joy to your life. Without me you wouldn't have met your best friend, Valentinian. Love". Comanche's sole purpose on Wikipedia seems to be smearing me; one day by calling me a Catholic and pissing at my religion, the other day by calling me gay. What procedure do I have to go through to get that IP nuked permanently? Valentinian T / C 20:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there an edit I missed that needs reverting? I thought I got them all. As for the block length... It's at a month now, if there is a next time I block, it will be permanently. He left a little gift on my page too... He's not very bright, though, unless he's into some weird things, as my mother has been dead for quite some time. I just don't get why an anon is being used, Comanche isn't blocked!!! Don't let it get to you, you're a valuable contributor... and thanks for the calming words in the recent content discussions on Sweden with EnglishEfternamn... ++Lar: t/c 20:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear that, one of my good friends lost her mother today. Thanks for the other remark. Comanche's behaviour is very irrational, but I guess he must have lost his password or accidentally reset it. Anyway, you shouldn't feel the least guilty about blocking Danish IPs. A few years ago, Danish ISPs tried to make customers pay a few more bucks for getting a fixed IP but it was a complete failure. Effectively, everybody got a fixed IP address for free whether we asked for it or not, and from the looks of it, Comanche's ISP (Telia) must have the same policy. I have removed the edit you missed, but I'll do an extra check. Valentinian T / C 21:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Which one(s) did I miss? I did not revert any talk page comments, only article edits because I tend not to ever revert anything from my talk and figure others can make the call themselves (or not). Heck, I may put mine back :) (although it was thoughtful of Bishonen to spot it and revert... guess she knew what it meant too) ++Lar: t/c 21:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about the edits to the two talk pages. I've taken the liberty of also removing the crap on Inge's page. But I am rather impressed if both you and Bishonen understand Danish. Valentinian T / C 21:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I should take credit, but I cannot. I had help from someone on IRC in deciphering it :) (another thing IRC is good for :) )... Bishonen is Swedish, though, so that's not as surprising I expect. ++Lar: t/c 21:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That figures. Danes, Norwegians and Swedes understand the other two languages (although we don't always admit it). I was beginning to wonder if collecting LEGOs had anything to do with it, but last time I collected LEGOs - back in the early Bronze Age - the instructions contained no words. Valentinian T / C 21:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I knew that the three langs are pretty close in many ways (closer than some prefer since each country has been the boss of each of the others at some point :) ), and about the "don't always admit it" part :) LEGO sets still almost always contain no words at all. See, for example which is a pretty complex one. But sometimes they do. PS I've always wanted to meet a lascivious sow... ++Lar: t/c 22:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Your User Page Template
Larry, I really like the tabbed format you're using. I've been wanting to change up my User page for a while now. Do you mind if I "steal" your templates? I'll try to differentiate them as much as possible so you can maintain at least a semblance of originality here and, of course, I'll credit you. Thanks.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 22:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a wiki, dude!!! Of course I don't mind, that's the whole point! (grin)... Please credit Jossi and Phaedriel too, as my work is based on the work Phaedriel did for Jossi's page... the tabs are a bit different there but it's where I got the idea. ++Lar: t/c 23:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Although it's true that "it's a wiki", I've seen some users get really touchy for the smallest reasons. I know you're not like that, but just thought I'd ask as a courtesy.  Thanks.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 23:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Your courtesy, although not necessary, is much appreciated. You should start by looking at User:Lar/HeaderTabs and if you have any questions just give a shout. Where I differ from how Jossi's is done is that which tab connects to the rest of the page (with the darker color) is determined automatically within HeaderTabs based on the pagename (using magic words and parser functions), rather than needing to be hardcoded in. It makes for double inclusion and the inner templates are gobbledgook, but it works... it lets me add and remove tabs fairly easily when I reorganise pages. ++Lar: t/c 00:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject The Beatles Newsletter, Issue 10, February 2007

 * Want to help on next month's newsletter? Don't want to receive these in future? Don't want it subst'd next time? – It's all here.

delivered by ++Larbot - run by User:Lar - t/c 03:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi there!!!! This may be the LAST The Beatles project newsletter you receive!

Why? Because we believe you are inactive or possibly inactive. If you want to move yourself back to active, and get copies going forward, please remove your name from WikiProject The Beatles/Outreach/Newsletter/PossiblyInactive and add yourself to WikiProject The Beatles/Outreach/Newsletter/Active. Thanks for your interest in the project. This may be the last notice you will receive, it depends on whim. ++Larbot - run by User:Lar - t/c 03:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC) (snort!)
 * Good game, good game! I did check to make sure I wasn't actually in the possibly inactive list... I had best check that I am not in the deffo inactive list whilst I am at it! ;) LessHeard vanU 13:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Snort. Glad you liked it. ++Lar: t/c 14:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

GA nom'ed for deletion
Articles for deletion/California State Route 37! --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I had nothing to do with this one, and i've commented on my talk page about the recent flare-up. I hate flare-ups.DGG 05:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not fond of flare ups either. Everyone should remain calm if at all possible. ++Lar: t/c 05:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Admin IRC channel
I have been promoted to sysopness, how do I join the IRC channel? Thanks. ~ Arjun  18:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Catch any one of a number of people with 10 or better in IRC and they can take it from there. To have ME add you I will want you to validate your identity using a method I will specify. ++Lar: t/c 19:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject The Beatles/Policy
I have gone ahead, been Bold, and amended the Project policy to reflect that the lowercase 't' in the Beatles argument has won the day. No opposing argument was put forward despite a comment in Newsletter 9 and a reference in Newsletter 10, and the authorities provided for lowercase were compelling. As co-Founder, and an Admin to boot, you may be asked to intervene should editors have their gruntleship disturbed. I will copy this to Kingboyk, even though he appears dormant regarding the Project.LessHeard vanU 22:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I missed commenting on this, I could have sworn I said we should keep the uppercase T. ++Lar: t/c 22:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That was then; when I got the opinion of some Anglo&ndashAmerican Language Wikipedians. The other side later countered with Guardian and Times styleguides. This was documented in Newsletter 9 and comments requested. It was again noted in Newsletter 10 (I don't only do silly comments, y'know?). Still no response. Since the proponents have been playing it by the rules, I have applied said rules in their favour. It is all in the talkpages (which you commented in late last year regarding civility).
 * There is nothing to stop an editor finding a more up to date, or august, authority; and then we can have the debate all over again. I personally find capitalising the T more natural, but I also use the words whilst and thereapon. Wikipedia has to reflect current good practice, and that means lowercase it seems. LessHeard vanU 23:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

How to add bookshelf?
How to add on the bookshelf? Wooyi 20:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, could you repeat your question? I did not follow it. Perhaps a link might help. If you are referring to how to add your own choices to this page, it's pretty easy. Just start editing someone else's section and copy it exactly, and then change what you copied into your stuff. I of course recommend that you do your entry in alphabetical order. If you flub up, someone will fix it, not to worry. If that wasn't what you meant, try asking again? Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 21:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was exactly asking that. Sorry for the poor wording of my question. Wooyi 22:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oustanding. Glad to be of help then. Give a shout if you need any further help once you have your entry in there (didn't see it there yet...), good luck. ++Lar: t/c 17:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I made an entry there. Thank you! Wooyi 02:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Totally random hello
Something just reminded me that we haven't crossed paths much of late. Hope you're well, dude. Looks like you're still doing a great job there. Metamagician3000 07:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, long time no talk. Hope all is well with you as well... I'm still having fun, as for the quality of the job I do, well, sources differ. :) Thanks for the hello! ++Lar: t/c 17:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Free Republic
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Free Republic. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Free Republic/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Free Republic/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad 20:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

To close an incident
Hi Lar - I'm hoping you can help me out. I tried following the BLPN instructions to close a BLPN incident using article name and but could not figure out how to do it. Would you mind detailing the steps I need to take to use these two templates to close Frédéric Prinz von Anhalt. Thanks. -- Jreferee 02:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll try to take a look but I confess that I have no idea what you're talking about :) Is this to do with Biography of Living Persons? Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard (just a guess)... ... another guess. try editing the whole page, not just the Frederic section, as the opening template has to go above that section.... ok I had another look and I think I sorted it. If the resolution there is wrong please adjust. The trick was to just paste the blpt above the heading and the blpb at the very bottom. ++Lar: t/c 03:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I used your instructions and successfully closed my first BLPN incident and will work on the remainin 165 BLPN incidents now posted at WP:BLPN-- Jreferee 15:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good deal. Please smith my resolution description as needed on Frederic, I was trying to read your mind a bit. May not have been spot on. ON reflection, this template process for closing is a lot like, say, closing AfDs or TfDs etc in terms of where the template invocations go. Once I realised that I knew what to do. Maybe you could improve the instructions a bit? ++Lar: t/c 16:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)