User talk:Lar/Archive 27

Note: This is an unsual archive as it is not for a particular date. So items may get added to it as needed, but it is placed in the archive numbering sequence based on the latest activity date as of when it was archived.

Trentino-South Tyrol
Hi Lar, I'm just curious, how's the progress on the Trentino-South Tyrol mediation? Best regards, Markussep 20:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * not good! I need to buckle down and do all the reading needed. I do mean to do some work on this but have not made enough progress to even summarise the issues yet. Sorry for the delay. ++Lar: t/c 20:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a fast reply! If you need some help just let me know. Things seem pretty quiet around South Tyrol lately, apart from the occasional vandals who remove either the Italian or the German names from the articles. Markussep 20:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I could definitely use some help. If you're ever on IRC maybe we could plan out how best to do that. ++Lar: t/c 12:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * IRC 'fraid not, I'm pretty busy in the real world, so I'd rather just discuss ideas on your or my talk pages. IMO we can split the topic into three main issues: how to name the region, how to name the province/area, and how to name places/objects in the province. For the former 2 there could be sufficient usage in English, which is the most relevant IMO. For the places/objects I think the solution found at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol is a good starting point, might need some fine tuning. Do you know which naming conventions apply here? Markussep 16:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, those three areas of division on the issues sound good. I don't yet have a clear understanding of which naming conventions do apply. thanks for your help... ++Lar: t/c 17:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The most interesting guideline for this topic is this one IMO: Naming conflict. Some applicable naming conventions etc.:
 * Naming conventions
 * Naming conventions (common names)
 * Naming policy poll
 * Naming conventions (use English)

For what it's worth, I did some of the tests described in Naming_conflict for the region and the province:
 * Region
 * Google test: Trentino-Alto Adige 1.2M, Trentino-South Tyrol 79k, Trentino-Südtirol 14k.
 * Google news: Trentino-South Tyrol and Trentino-Südtirol 0, Trentino-Alto Adige 4.
 * Other encyclopedias: Columbia Trentino–Alto Adige, Britannica Trentino–Alto Adige, Encarta Trentino–Alto Adige.
 * Province
 * Google test: Alto Adige 369k, South Tyrol 494k, Südtirol 305k, Province of Bolzano 25k, Bolzano province 0.5k, Bozen province 0.06k, Province of Bozen 0.5k. The results for Alto Adige and Südtirol include clearly German and Italian language pages.
 * Google news: South Tyrol 18, Südtirol 2, Alto Adige 18.
 * Other encyclopedias: Columbia doesn't have a separate article for the province, but the articles Trentino–Alto Adige and Tyrol use "Bolzano province", same for Britannica, Trentino–Alto Adige and Bolzano use "provincia of Bolzano-Bozen", same for Encarta, Bolzano uses Bolzano Province.

I'd say that there is clear common usage for Trentino-Alto Adige, but for the province it's less clear. Markussep 19:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige
I see that no traction has been made in the mediation process. Just thought you should know...

I did some research and checked with some pretty credible sources as to what they print, in ENGLISH, for the name of this region (and province) in Italy.


 * Fodor's - a well recognized and respected name (and expert guide) has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".


 * Michelin - also expert in travel guides - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bozen".


 * Rand McNally (name speaks for itself) has world, regional, and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".


 * Streetwise Map's regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".


 * Dorling Kindersley or "DK" - by far, probably the best travel guides available - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".


 * Lonely Planet (the self-proclaimed largest independently-owned travel guide) regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".


 * Hammond Map - a subsidiary of Langenscheidt Publishing Group (a privately-held German publishing company) - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

As far as proof, I am quite sure that the above sources are credible enough, especially in the sense of geographical knowledge, expertise, and English-translation. Rarelibra 03:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige
Hello Lar, just wanted to check with you if you were still going to be able to (eventually) help us come up with a naming convention. My regards, Taalo 18:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes i very much want to help with this and realise it's been a while, which I'm sorry about. Rarelibra provided some data, above, that might be relevant to this. ++Lar: t/c 18:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Great! Note my only concern was that you might not have time, etc.  Is there anything a few of us (on both sides of the argument) can help in the grunt work?  regards, Taalo 20:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

MedCab case
Hey Lar, what is the status of this case? --Ideogram 14:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Stuck in the evidence phase, because I'm a slacker... I get periodic nudges, see above in my talk... I do intend to address it soon, honest. (but have said that before). ++Lar: t/c 14:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol
Yeah, if you still want to help us out, it would be much appreciated.. even begged for. :} Taalo 07:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-South Tyrol
Hi Lar, I am removing this case from the MedCab cases list since nothing is going on. It doesn't need to be there for you to mediate it anyway. --Ideogram 12:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine. If I actually manage to get anywhere with it I'll put it back. Just don't delete the page itself please. ++Lar: t/c 12:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * All closed cases can be found here. --Ideogram 13:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

motion to close mediation
hello there,

there was a mediation offer quite a while ago concerning the issue of Trentino-South Tyrol. I am happy to announce that the issue has been discussed, voted upon and settled. However the mediation offer still needs to be officially closed. Please take a minute to visit the page Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-10-20 Trentino-South Tyrol and put your signature at the bottom if you agree with the decision, thank you. sincerely Gryffindor  20:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A very important note. This mediation offer concerned the greater overall naming convention to use in this region, not just the name of the region itself.  We came up with a very good compromise for the regional name itself.  I for one am still looking forward for Lar to help us out. Taalo 21:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Since I was the mediator (who never accomplished anything...) I can't vote on the motion. but I am glad to hear that a name compromise for the region itself was arrived at. What of the other naming questions though? I seem to recall this was larger than just that. ++Lar: t/c 20:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Lar, we just came up with a name for the region itself. You are 100% correct, it was much larger than just that. I feel it is rather dubious that Gryffindor is attemping to do here. Taalo 21:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't feel that Gryffindor is doing anything dubious at all. The mediation started with the naming of the region - Lar took on too much with the assumption of a clean convention for names within the region. We can handle each situation as we did for the region... see if there is consensus, and go from there. The issue about the region was discussed, voted upon, and has been settled, but the mediation does need to be officially closed. As for further naming (such as the province, etc) we can handle it just as was handled with the region. Rarelibra 13:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am fine with whatever the participants want to do. May I suggest we discuss this at the talk page of the mediation rather than here though? ++Lar: t/c 13:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good enough, though I'd still hope Lar can find the time to help with an overall solution. I saw it is dubious mostly because it caught a lot of us off guard, which of course is rather unsettling. Taalo 17:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol
Lar, is there anyway you can find the time to try and put together a naming convention for this region. I believe most people involved in the debate right now have too much baggage and bias. Even for myself, I would like to see someone make a neutral decision rather than leave it up to whatever bias I have. Most importantly, and perhaps I'll get lambasted for it, but there are certain individuals involved who I believe have less than genuine intentions. Anyway, I could help you with any leg work you would need that you think I can do without influencing things. thank you. Icsunonove 18:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I will do my best to do something. But it has to have buy in from the participants. I'd say use the mediation page to propose the next area to tackle (let's try to do them not all at once),... if there is already discussion on the talk page of an area article note that, or else start it on the mediation talk. I am on wikibreak so may not respond really fast but I DO want to help. ++Lar: t/c 02:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Please Help
Hi Lar, please, please help key an eye on Province of Bolzano-Bozen. We had a great group of editors finally move this page to the multilingual provincial name, as cited in Brittanica (!!). Gryffindor is now having a hissy fit and saying this is the work of some "Italian" sham vote. Gryffindor is going back and reverting edits in mass. I've personally had enough of Gryffindor's abuses on Wikipedia. Please give advice on how we can have him investigated for the Administrative abuses he has been guilty of since 2005. Icsunonove 05:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What steps in dispute resolution have you tried so far? ++Lar: t/c 11:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
I've added a summary for you at the talk page Lar. As I said a few months ago, I would be more than happy to do the leg work for you if you could finally help mediate a neutral convention to use for pages of this region. From your past work I would trust you the most, of course regardless of which way you decide. talk to you later, Icsunonove 05:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Lar, I responded to your request for more information again. The past votes never really reached a consensus; they turned into national-biased vote festivals -- always becoming quite harsh.  To get away from the never-ending confrontation we tried a different approach to go with breaking off the history section and focusing the article on the present-day province.  The vote was then what to name the provincial article, and the bilingual name of Province of Bolzano-Bozen came on top (which happens to be cited through Brittanica, etc.).  This was the first discussion ever on this talk page where we had a significant group of editors across languages and nationalities come together and come up with a neutral solution that was acceptable to everyone.  The particular user who is steamed now has a particular history with these regional articles, and I'll just leave it at that. :-)  He did just post an accusation in the very section you asked for it to stop. :(  Anyway, a more detailed summary is at the talk page. Icsunonove 20:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, I can all but guarantee there is going to be a huge call of arms now to get people to come here and vote for South Tyrol. You know what, the multi-ethnic discussions were sure good while they lasted.  Knowing this particular user, he will be e-mailing and private-messaging a ton of people.  I'd like some advice from your side?  Point it out, or just watch this nasty game unfold again?  take care, Icsunonove 21:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You may have the best of intentions but I don't think these sorts of messages to me on my talk page are the best way to move forward. I'd rather try to focus on what has been agreed on and what can be done to move forward. I'd urge you to constructively seek common ground on the talk page itself. ++Lar: t/c 00:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I just don't know what to do if it just becomes a majority rule game again.  Do you think we should simply seek mediation, or do you want to formally participate in such a process? Icsunonove 00:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I tried mediation once before and I failed abjectly to come to grips, so if you go that route you'll need another mediator. It is a complicated and not easy to resolve question. Technically quite thorny compared to many of the ones mentioned in the place names style guide. I don't think the previous votes were, exactly, majority rule, but sometimes there is no other way. The USRD arbitration case was like that. Really can't you all just get along? Does it really matter that much that it's worth hurling invective? Redirects can point to wherever you want. ++Lar: t/c 00:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know dude, this particular debate is just a quite nasty. The current solution is based on Brittanica and is on top of that bi-lingual.  Still.. nope, not good enough! :-)  That is a shame you can't do the mediation for us though. :(  I guess we'll need to go through this process anyway. Icsunonove 00:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * USRD was WAY nastier. And it involved hundreds, if not thousands, of articles, went to arbitration, and ended up with temporarily modifying what consensus means, as a solution was imposed on the participants by 6 admins who rode roughshod over them all, including handing out a fair number of blocks during the course of a number of polls, which were binding (even when there were only slim majorities) without recourse or appeal, because that was what the participants agreed to. I hope never to see the like again here. It was all over whether something should be called State Route or Route or Massachusetts Route etc... Don't let it come to that. Be the first to set the sniping aside, turn a new leaf, reach out and work with everyone, yes everyone, to find a compromise that everyone can live with. Please. (Because I was the admin that handed out the most blocks during USRD and I swore I'd never do that again) ++Lar: t/c 00:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that sounds quite horrible actually. I'll certainly give it one more try.  I've really worked quite hard to push for just this sort of compromise; one that is all-inclusive.  The added difficulty with something that involves a certain degree of politics is it makes it that much more difficult.  We'll see, I was really impressed with  the group that worked on this article during the last month.  Hopefully this sort of compromise and collaboration can come back.  regards, Icsunonove 04:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen
Sorry to bug you Lar, but I'm now personally getting attacked by this Gryffindor (an Admin, on top of everything). Is this really civil? . I'm trying to ask PhJ what title he would suggest is more neutral than the one we selected. Is that not a fair question? :( I thought this would be a way to have a discussion rather than name calling -- as you suggested.  Then this "Admin" says stuff like this, for me to "stop rambling".  He makes claims and I simply refute them.  Instead of debating he just makes insults.  I know all editors should keep a high standard of civility, but do people who have been trusted with Admin priviledges need to lay out abuse like this? Icsunonove 09:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sharing your concerns. I'll take another look. ++Lar: t/c 12:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, thank you for taking (hopefully not wasting) your time to simply keep this discussion cool. I think if Gryffindor and PhJ can just join the discussion and begin by expressing their opinion on why this article isn't at a neutral location (and what they believe would be more neutral), that would actually help start a constructive dialog.  Obviously we aren't going to get anywhere by yelling "South Tyrol is right!".. no, no, "Alto Adige is right!".  We may or may not be neutral with our solution, I don't know... but, we really tried hard with the page split, etc.  But only constructive criticism is going to help, not accusations of being unethical.  We had this discussion for almost a month (and it was based on the idea of a split that was put forth a long time prior).  Anyway, "dont make me stop the car" is perfect.. got my first Wiki-laugh of the week or month...  I'm almost more curious now if this is a saying understood across cultures. :-)  my best regards, Icsunonove 21:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen/South Tyrol
Hello, and thank you for your mediation efforts on the discussion page about the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I would like to hear your opinion on a possible different disambiguation concerning the term South Tyrol. The naming dispute for the Province of Bolzano-Bozen has been exhausting and I think that the current compromise is fine, although I might have preferred a forward slash (Bolzano/Bozen) rather than a hyphen. Since the linguistic majority of the province is German (as Icsunonove correctly points out here), it might also be possible to invert the names (Province of Bozen/Bolzano). After all, this is the convention used for instance in the article Åboland, where the Swedish place name comes first, and the Finnish one after. However, the naming dispute has been so long and "acidic" that it seems useless and not constructive to flame it again. What I find unsatisfactory is the redirection from South Tyrol to Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I propose something as follows: South Tyrol (German: Südtirol) may refer to:
 * the areas of the County of Tyrol (part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire) south of the Alpine divide, including the Italian-speaking areas of Trentino, in past times also known as Welschtirol in German.
 * the German-speaking part of the County of Tirol that was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy in 1918.
 * the Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen, a political subdivision of the Republic of Italy, which is also known as Alto Adige (lit. "Upper Adige") in Italian and Südtirol (lit. "South Tyrol") in German.

I think that this suggested disambiguation is informative, balanced and reasonably neutral. This version relates to the current articles Tyrol, History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol and Province of Bolzano-Bozen, so any reader can find the information that matches his/her interests. This version also seems quite language-balanced. I would really like to hear your opinion. Best regards, FrancescoMazzucotelli 03:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This seems like a bit long for a disambig, those tend to be shorter and point to articles that people might be confused about that have similar names. But the intent is like a disambig, I agree. It seems reasonable enough at first glance. Have you proposed it anywhere yet? Was there resistance? I think it would be a good thing to create in place of the current redirect if consensus can be achieved for it as it adds information and steers the user in useful directions depending on what they seek. ++Lar: t/c 17:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply. I suggested my proposal to some of the contributors of the article and will post posted it on the talk page of Province of Bolzano-Bozen so that anyone can express his/her opinion. I'll let you know the outcome. I agree that consensus should be achieved before any move. Best regards, FrancescoMazzucotelli 23:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)