User talk:Larry Rosenfeld/Archive 1

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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I'm not sure whether or not it's adviseable for you to use your e-mail address as your username; people generally don't. I guess it might attracted unwanted spam and such. If you'd like, you could easily have your user name changed to simply "Larry Rosenfeld".

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~&#126;); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! &mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As always, excellent advice Nat! Thanks, LarryR 12:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply to: Nirvana vs. Enlightenment
Thanks for your question about linking to Nirvana vs. Enlightenment. I don't mind in the slightest. I might have changed the link to "Nirvana" myself, but since the actual text didn't say "Nirvana" I didn't want to assume that you actually wanted to be more specific. --Iggle 21:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for your comment, I had a look at your user page and I also find I am often trying to make the distinctio between Mahayana and Theravada (and other schools) clear. Often it's a bit muddled up. Greetings, Sacca 15:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Skandha
Sorry to take so long responding to your comments on skandha. By the way, thank you very much for the work you've done on that article. You seem to have a real interest in and capacity for writing material that is not only factually accurate but uses good style and is fluid and comfortable to read. Sadly, the average Wikipedian, to be frank, is pretty bad at this; so, we are that much more lucky to have you around.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Good work
Thanks for your contributions to the Yama (Buddhism and Chinese mythology) article (as well as skandha and upadana). RandomCritic 12:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yama
Thanks, but I can't take credit for whatever merits that page possesses; my contribution was primarily extracting the material relating to Yama in Buddhism from a more general article on Yama. My only contribution to the content itself was the material on Yama in Theravada traditions, which (as you noted) was sadly undersourced. Similar problems arise with some of the other articles I am in large part responsible for (such as Buddhist cosmology and many of the articles in the same category) -- resulting largely from not having routine access to a comprehensive library of Buddhist texts and commentaries. RandomCritic 02:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Skandha
When I added the information I believe the article was a stub, the concept was undefined, and its usefulness or purpose entirely unclear. I added a clearly attributed POV that filled these holes. While I'm bothered that Wikipedia editors could not create an article structure that incorporated their personal beliefs or those of their tradition(s) and beliefs which conflict with those (such as the Trungpa quotes), I admit that the article has now moved far beyond my knowledge of the specific subject or Buddhism in general, and I leave the answer to your question to more knowledgeable editors such as yourself. I do request that you remove the quotes to the talk page and follow them by the reason for their removal (as may be your standard practice). Thanks for the note. Hyacinth 23:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I meant to get back to you earlier, but it slipped my mind before I got off the computer, and two weeks passed. Anyways, I'm not sure why an editor would remove a quote or citation by replacing it with more technical and thus harder to understand quotes, rather than using both to lend authority to and help explain each other. I assumed that this would be due to POV. Hyacinth 19:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * At the very least we could include a citation, without the quote. I don't remember the exact citation details (see also?)... I can never remember any of the specifics from Citing sources. Hyacinth 23:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, no problem. Hyacinth 15:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Article layout
Sorry I was too terse with the edit comment. I started simply to work on the categories and then noticed the end matter was not per standard. There is a layout standard which indicates that the end matter sections should be "second level" headings. See also the Annotated article. Actually, I like yours better. Maybe you should bring it up on the WP:LAYOUT talk page. Standard are known to change around here. :-) &mdash;Hanuman Das 03:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi!
Hi Larry :)

Thanks for your message - you were next on my list for press-ganging into the Zen collaboration, but you got me before I could get you!

I've had a look at the Householder article - I came across the idea of the various stations of life in the novel Siddartha I think, but other than that I don't know anything at all. In Mahayana sutras (I only read English incidentally) I don't recall any references to people other than as 'bikkshu' or 'upasaka'. The Vimalakirti Sutra, though, as you point out, may have relevant information - the right translation is important, btw, as some are quite severely abridged. The Charles Luk translation is the best (I have it scanned on CD, but haven't got round to using OCR software to turn it into text). It introduces Vimalakirti as a layman who makes his living as a grain (rice?) trader, and makes some comments about making profits. It also mentions Vimalakirti having sex only for the purpose of procreation. There are probably other points of interest and passages that could be quoted.

Another good source for Zen attitudes to lay life / how to live as a householder would be Zen Stories, eg in 'Zen Speaks' by Tsai Chih Chung there's a story about Mokusen and a miser (moral is about giving - most relevant to lay people).

I'll have a look at some things I could contribute in the next week or two - I have some RL hassles at the moment which are hampering my internet addiction :) . (Saying that makes me feel so important! :D )

Also Saposcat is a language expert and may have some input, and Nearfar is Indian and may also have something to add. Like your articles very much, btw. Take care :) Rentwa 18:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Larry! :)


 * By a bizarre coincidence I have the chinese for 'bull' (and 'beef', too, evidently, from menus I've seen) tattooed on my arm.


 * I've only been to sea in dingies. My interest in Butler came from a TV doc I saw about him, and I was looking for the article for a) nostalgic reasons and b) because I was wondering if there were any theorems about drag and hull shape.


 * 'Press ganging' - you must have heard the anecdotes about Royal Navy sailors getting people drunk and dragging them on board ship (forcible conscription into the navy)?


 * Don't worry about contributing to the Zen collab - no urgency for conscripts volunteers at the moment - the whole thing is a monstrous piece of bravado on my part.


 * I don't know a great deal about Theravada, but Zen has a particular appeal for me. I was raised Catholic, which (without any disrespect as I'm grateful for many aspects of it) can be an appallingly depressing and po-faced faith at times. Zen stories were like a breath of fresh air. As I come across more Theravadan stuff at WP I'm struck that the differences between the the two sets of writings become less important as one begins to see the dharma as part of daily life rather than words on a page.


 * I seem to have a similar career background to you (and some inaccuracies about my age may have found their way onto my user page :D ). I've worked with various 'client groups' , elderly mentally ill, young drug abusers and recently children with special needs, but frustration with bureaucrats has led me to quit (see numerous angry rants at the ref desk ). I'm writing at the moment and hoping to make a career out of it, although the Pulitzer still eludes me. Rentwa 08:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll get something together from Vimalakirti and Zen Stories in the next week or two, keep in touch :) . Rentwa 19:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I keep track of all debts etc. Don't forget the vig either :) . Rentwa 11:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Ariyena
Hi Larry. I read your query. In my humble opinion, the ariyenas and ariyāya are adjectival, hence one should read "noble discipline, noble knowledge and noble liberation". This chain of desirable things is also all in the instrumental (with / by), so I can't see how one arrives at the translation you quote. The atthakattha explains: ''Ariyenāti niddosena lokuttara-sīlena. Ñāṇenāti paccavekkhaṇa-ñāṇena. Vimuttiyāti sekha-phala-vimuttiyā''. ["With the noble ...": with the fault-free, supramundane discipline. "With knowledge": with the knowing that is thorough reflection. "With liberation": with the liberation that is the result of the training.]

Does this help ? --Stephen Hodge 03:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Useful Article
Saposcat has just written an article on Layman Pang which may be useful for the Householder article. Rentwa 14:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

householder
hello larry,

thanks for your comments, I feel the first line still needs some explanation on what is meant by 'renounce' the world, I think that 'as a religious practice of renunciation' would be a good addition to the first line.

Concerning the various categories, I think householder applies to any person, whatever believes they have, 'holding a house'. So a brahmin would also be a householder. As far as I know, there are both male and female lay devotees (upsasikas and upasok (this is a thai word)). These devotees would also be householders. Although in the (traditional) indian setting the man would be the owner of the house, nowadays this is not necessarily so, so there are female houdeholders also. laypeople is thus a better discription than 'layman'.

Then concerning the samanas, this includes the buddhist monks and nuns, and the jains, ajivikas, etcetera. Basically, at the time samana was used in a way comparable to the term 'monastic'. That's why I included the term samanas in the introduction; these two categories are mutually exclusive. The brahmanas were 'priests', they were householders, not monastics.

I believe monastic (samana), priest (brahmana) and lay are mutually exclusive, at least in the time of the buddha they were. I don't know about the usage in christianity. My usage of 'lay' might be influenced by the thai word 'yoom' which referes to anybody who is not a monk (or priest?). So I think the 'householder' category is composed of brahmanas and laypeople. I don't see this as polorizing (you mentioned this in your message to me), if anybody is happy as a monk, priest or lay existence what is the problem? I feel this is the true buddhist approach to these issues of ordination. If anybody feels they should have ordained but did not, or they regret being a monk or layperson, or they feel they are superior or inferior because of this, then maybe the issue becomes one of polorisation. This polorization is then a reflection of their inner struggle or probem. But the distinction is not inherently polorizing at all, they are just conventions and words.

samana - buddhist, ajivaka, jain monks. householders: priests (brahmanas) and laypeople (including upasika etc).

Anyway, I will let you find a way with the article, I just thought some of the normal usage was missing. I think it would be a good idea to make a template for connecting the various articles. sadhu... Greetings, Sacca 23:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Larry, thanks for our messages,

For me, I think the article is more about the concept of householder, in stead of just only the pali word gahapati. So I would think that gahattha, gahapati and also agārasmā are valid for expressing this concept of householder. I would think they are probably used interchangably in the Pali Canon. i remember agarasma and anagarika are used sometimes to express the idea of 'going forth' - agarasma = before and anagarika = after. So it seems to be just the same thing as gahapati. It would be interesting to see what the status of the anagarikas is. They are not householders anymore, but they are not true monastics either.

I saw the criteria in the article, but I must honestly say I did not regard these criteria as unchangeable, I thought: it's a nice example so it belongs here. I did find another sutta which mentions ghatikara: the [Ghatikara Sutta of the Devata Samyutta. So one criteria has been fulfilled. And although it uses a different pali word, this word has the same meaning (householder), so I would say it's good enough? I find his example quite inspiring.

Thanks for your previous message also, yes I currently live in Thailand, although I will leave soon and spend some time in India. There are monks everywhere here, and people keep becoming monks, with others leaving monkhood, Thai people have no problem with this, it's normal here. They typicaly give a party for friends and family the night before they ordain! In America it's not common to see monks walking on pindabat (almsround) in the morning I think? People are not used to it, especially people from a protestant heritage (there are no monks in protestant chiristianity). I can recommend you to spend some time (holiday?) in thailand, it's a nice place. Greetings, Sacca 03:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Larry, I like the introduction. I added more householder practices. Greetings, Sacca 02:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Your question about Layman Pang
Hello there. Sorry to be bothering you, but I noticed that you asked Rentwa this question: "Would you know if Layman Pang was a layman or a householder or both or there is no such distinction in the Mahayana canon as there is in the Pali canon?"

I'm not as well as versed in the Mahayana canon as I probably should be, so I can't—unfortunately—enlighten you on the matter of the layman/householder distinction there (though I suspect it doesn't quite exist, or at least not to the extent that it may in Theravada, as my suspicion is that the distinction is fairly particular to the Indian socioeconomics of the Buddha's era).

However, I can explain what the "Layman" in "Layman Pang" means: the words involved are jū (居) and shì (士). The first word, 居, means basically "to reside", thus giving the sense of a house or dwelling-place. The second word, 士, can mean "scholar", "warrior", or "knight" when by itself, but is often added to other words as essentially a deferential suffix; i.e., it shows respect, as in 護士 (hùshì, "nurse"; literally, "protect" + "scholar/warrior/knight") and 教士 (jiàoshì, "clergyman"; literally, "religion/teaching" + "scholar/warrior/knight"). So, essentially, the "Layman" in "Layman Pang" is simply a title of respect for a person who is the owner of a house.

I know this probably won't help in your quest to clarify the layman/householder distinction, but I thought you might be interested nonetheless. Cheers. —Saposcat 09:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, I'm glad that you got a kick out of the info I gave you. However, I'm a bit wary about "cutting and pasting [my] explanation of 'Layman' somewhere at Householder (Buddhism)", owing to the fact that 居士 (jūshì) is not—to the best of my knowledge, which is actually pretty slim—a term used specifically from a religious standpoint. In the context of Buddhism in China (or Japan, where I think it's pronounced hōji), I'm not even certain whether it's used outside of reference to Layman Pang specifically.


 * But I did find something via the Japanese Wikipedia (with the help of those wonderful Internet translation tools that we all love so dearly) that seems to uphold some of the distinction you've been making between "layman" and "householder". To wit:


 * 居士 is "layman" (as per this wonderful translation and its original), and seems to refer to someone who has not yet explicitly taken his or her first five little steps in the Buddhist way—or anyhow, that's what I make of the sentence "Origin of a word of the layman is 'the loyal retainer who stays in the house', the point which differs from the normal believer corresponds to the monk at the time of knowledge practicing of Buddhism study, or it is a match it is about to have ability" from the translation.
 * 在家 is "householder" (as per this particular piece of wisdom and its original), and quite clearly refers to upāsakas, upāsikās, and the Pañcasīla (oh my!).


 * As for your ideas about what to do with Householder (Buddhism), I'm simply not versed enough to make a definite statement in any direction. Both the idea of a "Laity (Buddhism)" article and the idea of moving the info to the "Upasaka" article seem good ones—but ultimately I'd say keep doing the research (which you're doing a great job on, by the way—it's windmill-tilting as admirable as that of Don Quixote himself), and hopefully something definite and clear will turn up in the end. (If not, hey, them's the breaks.) —Saposcat 20:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Buddhist pilgrimage and Mahaparinibbana
Hiya Larry. My source for the four holy sites is the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. As Gautama Buddha's health further deteriorated, he decided on his last discourse and chose the location of Kusinara/Kushinagar to finalize his dispensation; the Buddhadharma. This is according to the Theravada view, which I have adopted. One Thai monk, with medical experience, has given his interpretation of Gautama's passing here. And slight misunderstanding: my contribution actually reads "Although pilgrimage is not central to the path, Gautama Buddha spoke of four holy sites that followers may seek." In other words, although pilgrimage is not necessary to attain Enlightenment or Nirvana, still it has its merit and place in Buddhism. Metta! Usedbook 05:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Pali people template ...
Not as fast as you think: I'd spent a bit of time already working on the transliteration (i.e., them funny little marks above and below letters), finished, pressed "Save page"—and lo! it was an edit conflict, because you'd reorganized the table in the meantime. So, from there, it was just a matter of copy-paste (which doesn't take too long).

But I do appreciate the "good" appellation (and especially the italics it's cased in—yowza!). Cheers. —Saposcat 07:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * PS—I wouldn't mind if the Mets won the series, though I'm personally rooting for the Cardinals in that series (I'm from Chicago, the White Sox ain't in it this time around, and St. Louis is "local"). Overall, though, I'm rooting for the Tigers (despite the fact that they're one of the reasons my belovèd White Sox aren't there). We shall see ... —Saposcat 07:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for the congrats. I appreciate it. —Saposcat 08:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Has already been blocked (but for an hour only). It should be noted that I'm not an admin so I cannot block. With that, I'm signing off for the night. MER-C 14:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Barnstarred
Thanks for the star, you caught me unawares! Greetings, Sacca 03:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Sigalovada Sutta's inherent gender bias
Hi Larry. Thanks for asking about this. I wish I had a quick answer for you. But, I've none. Let me know if you don't come up with any references. I'm happy to help when I have time. Oh... and good on you for the barnstar to Sacca! Deebki 06:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Uposatha
Thanks for catching that. I had not noticed that the whole article is copyvio. I think that, more than simply tagging it for rewrite, we are required to tag the article for deletion, since it has been violating copyright since the first edit.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 18:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it definitely needs to be deleted, regardless of whether it's getting rewritten sooner or later. It's illegal.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 04:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:Peoplepalicanon
I restored the wikimarkup with the lines you complained about. I'm sorry they disappeared. If you'd like to learn how to use wikimarkup to build table, an extensive explanation can be found at Help:Table. Circeus 13:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I certainly see the lines, but I think I see exactly where the problem is. Your browser (mind if I ask what it is?) probably can't see borders applied to entire rows. How's it now? Circeus 14:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Uposatha
My compliments, it looks nice. I added a link to the Vinaya source for Uposatha. It's an old translation, but still usable.Greetings, Sacca 07:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:LayBuddhistPractices2 & Dana
hello larr, hanks for he commens, m keboard is no working ver well ;-) he emplae is nice, bu I miss he disincion Buddha made, of Dana, Sila, Samadhi. his are he pracices he ofen reommended for lapeople or householders. Sill in hailand his is used ver much b monks, as a kind of compac abbreviaion for he buddhis pracice for lapeople.

A nice word for dana is generosity

from accesoinsight:

''dana [daana]: Giving, liberality; offering, alms. Specifically, giving of any of the four requisites to the monastic order. More generally, the inclination to give, without expecting any form of repayment from the recipient. Dana is the first theme in the Buddha's system of gradual training (see anupubbi-katha), the first of the ten paramis, one of the seven treasures (see dhana), and the first of the three grounds for meritorious action (see sila and bhavana).''

have to go now, Greetings, Sacca 11:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

gradual training
hi larry,

thanks for your comments, yes i think the gradual training would be a very good article for wikipedia. I checked ATI and found majjhima nikaya 107 as an example of gradual training for monks, but i remember it's used in many discourses of the buddha. The one for monks is really gradual, because it's a real training which takes time and effort to do, and it brings more results over time.

The gradual teaching the buddha used a lot as a tool for 'enlightenening' people to become a sotapanna are the following (from ATI); Yasa (if i remember his name correctly) was the first person with whom the Buddha used this gradual teaching, and he became the 6th arahant (after the monks of the group of five). he was living in Varanasi and became distressed with life, and went to visit the Buddha, who taught him, taking about these six subjects in this order. The second to whom the buddha taught this teaching was yasa's father, and he too became a sotapanna. So it's a very powerful teaching.
 * Dana (generosity)
 * Sila (virtue)
 * Sagga (heaven)
 * Adinava (drawbacks)
 * Nekkhamma (renunciation)
 * Four Noble Truths

I think there's a difference, in that these six subjects are a teaching, and majjhima 107 (and other suttas) concern a real training. I don't know why this is translated as the same 'gradual training', personally I think the term 'gradual teaching' fits better with these six subjects.

Concerning dana sila bhavana: I remember some talks by ajahn chah and ajahn MahaBoowa with this teaching. I am sorry I think i made a mistake here before: it should be bhavana not samadhi. bhavana means (mental) cultivation or development, so it encompasses both samadhi and panya. I think the tripartite division would be done best along the lines of dana sila bhavana. And for sure thai lay buddhists meditate, but again it's up to the individual. It's an important practice, and there are many monasteries with teaching and practicing facilities aimed at meditation for laypeople. And not in thailand only, also sri lanka and myanmar have many of these kinds of facilities.

I am sorry I will leave it at this, internet is too slow for me. I will look at the templates later. Greetings, Sacca 12:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Larry, For the next three or four months I won't really have opportunity to do significant writing, but after that I should be OK I think (maybe, that is). So if it's not there in 4 months' time, I might start it. Otherwise, give me the link and i will have a look at it in the future when I have opportunity. I adapted the template in my talkpage a bit.
 * concerning the bhavana section; it is very broad, basically it covers samma ditthi, samma sankappa, samma vayama, samma sati and samma samadhi. intentional skillfull reflections on life and death, suffering and happiness, etcetera are a part of it, too. Now it's a bit too meditation-oriented I feel.
 * concerning anyone in contemporary Thervada society refers to the training in MN 107 (morality, sense-control, moderate eating, vigilance, mindfulness, hindrance vanquishing and jhanic concentration) as the "gradual training": I think there must be a lot, since it is used in ATI. But you'd want a specific name for refence I think? I' d have to look for that, and now I've got no opportunity for this (I'm in Kathmandu currently, will be moving around nepal and india for the next 4 months - you can expect some more pictures of the holy sites to appear on WP).
 * the dana, sila, bhavana is much taught to laypeople in Thailand, I think it is because of this that Thai people are so generous. Even if they do not always have good sila or bhavana, almost everyone practices dana pretty well, even kids will always share their candy, even if there's just a little bit. it's automatic to them. For monks, however, since they do not have much property and are dependent on alms in stead of almsgivers, it is not generally applied. But monasteries and monks contribute a lot to society as well, and this can be seen as a form of Dana as well. Maybe if you make a search in thai language you will get more hits ;-)
 * I am also very happy to have this resourse of the vinaya on internet, it's nice reading and easy accessible. The story of Yasa closely follows some aspects of the common stories of Buddha's life before becoming a religious wanderer, in fact i believe they have copied this from Yasa's story in later times, and applied it to Buddha's life.Greetings, Sacca 14:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. I believe '3 refuges' falls outside of dana-sila-samadhi. But it should still be included in the template. It's part of being Buddhist.
 * I'm lucky today, the keyboard is fine, and the connection prety quick...
 * Hi Larry, Tonight I created an Anupubbi-katha (Gradual Training) article. I changed Four Noble Truths to link to it. Check it out. with metta / Dhammapal Dhammapal 10:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Larry,

Sorry I haven’t responded to your detailed responses. I’m still recovering from being informed about how Wikipedia infringes ATI's dhammadana policy.

I thought of writing to you about how to cope with Copyright and No Original Research simultaneously, then I thought I’d go directly to the Village Pump. I got some excellent feedback here, the idea being that you can’t copyright facts, only presentation.

I misunderstood CorenBot’s direction:
 * Replace the copyright text with your own work. Note that simply modified or rephrased text is still an infringement — to remove the copyrighted contents you will need to completely remove them and then write totally new text to replace it.

Paraphrase is different to rephrase right?

Your suggestions sound like a lot of work, but I have lots of spare time and there is no hurry is there? I’m particularly interested in adinava (drawbacks, as in MN54) which, if you type in “adinava drawbacks” into google you only get ATI mirror sites and your talk page

Also last time I looked there is nothing on the web about what heaven (sagga) would be like (although there is a Deva_(Buddhism) article. The key to the Gradual Training is to learn so as to understand how deva realms are unsatisfactory.

I like the idea of creating a basic skeleton on a Gradual_Training_(Buddhism) article, as something to build on, with wikilinks to articles on dana, sila, etc. Also, we could move these discussions onto Talk:Gradual_Training_(Buddhism) instead of going back and forth between our UserTalk pages.

In order to have a Talk:Gradual_Training_(Buddhism) page we need to create the article. I am understandably hesitant so I’d appreciate it if you could. Here is what I suggest so far: ++++


 * Gradual Training, in Theravada Buddhism is how the Buddha taught the Dhamma, the Four Noble Truths being the advanced teaching. The common formula for laypeople is:


 * 1) Generosity (dana)
 * 2) Virtue (sila)
 * 3) Heaven (sagga)
 * 4) Drawbacks (adinava)
 * 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma)
 * 6) The Four Noble Truths (cattari ariya saccani)

Brahmavihara comment
Hi Larry. Thanks for the kind comment on my talk page. I think the two translations highlights an important aspect of studying the translated Pali texts, which is to try to grasp the "spirit of the text" (especially if you, like myself, don't know Pali and can't check the originals). In this case, the "spirit of the text" seems to be something on the lines of the diciples of the Buddha will attain final nirvana, but the non-diciples won't, and hence they will still find themselves in cyclic existence (which includes the hells). Reading only Thanissaro's translation (and disregarding Ñanamoli), I get the feeling that the non-diciple is getting punished, which seems odd. Andkaha(talk) 10:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Kisa Gotami
Good catch on that. The section in question is part of the Pali Canon, and, although I think it's silly that you can copyright a translation, apparently you can, so this is violating the copyright of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The current procedure is to simply edit out the parts of the article that are copyvio (unless the whole things is), and not to worry about doing more than that unless the copyright holder complains. So, yes, let's get rid of it, and, no, I don't think you'll be stepping on anyone's toes in the process. Thanks for checking, though. Cheers, Nat Krause(Talk!) 02:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Dana references
Hello larry,

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_d.htm In this buddhist dictionary (by Nyanatiloka) you will find some sutta-references concerning dana. It also mentions the punna-kiriya-vatthu, which is the pali term for 'dana, sila, bhavana'.

quote from same the dictionary; puñña-kiriya-vatthu: 'bases of meritorious action'. In the Suttas, 3 are mentioned consisting of giving (liberality; dāna-maya-p.), of morality (sīla-maya-p.) and of mental development (meditation; bhāvanā-maya-p.). See D. 33; It. 60; expl. in A. VIII, 36.

Greetings, Sacca 11:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Just when I thought I was out ... "
Hey, it actually turns out that all I needed was one of those wiki-breaks, as opposed to a wholesale wiki-desertion. Thanks for the compliments in your e-mail, by the way; I was quite humbled, and very appreciative. Looking forward to working with you sometime soon. Cheers. —Saposcat 15:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Pali wikipedia

 * I was just wondering if you could contribute to the Pali wikipedia here. --Eukesh 15:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Offering symbolism
Thanks for your welcome, I never knew you could talk to individual people on their page. As for the 32 major and 80 minor marks (or signs) of a Buddha, I'm sure they're a universal aspect of Buddhism. Yes, on wikipedia it says 'In the Pali scriptures it is claimed that all Buddhas have the 32 major marks, and the 80 minor marks of a superior being' from Dharmakaya. I guess I meant that through offeirng the flower, we make an aspiration to acheive a body with the signs of a Buddha. I am, however, a Mahayana Buddhist with limited knowledge of Therevada although I hope I'm not a sectarian. What I have written is fairly consistent with all Mahyana traditions and from my knowledge, Theravada as well.

Jmlee369 07:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

template
hi larry, a nice template it has become (laypracticesrebirth I mean), Greetings, Sacca 10:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Larry
Thanks. I don't know why there would be two articles - I didn't create either one and don't have time right now to figure out what's going on. If you can sort the mess, my gratitude in advance. NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • [/wiki/Special:Log?user= logs ] • email ) 18:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the redirect, Larry. To clarify, I didn't create either article, and both have problems. Specifically, they're highly POV. I'll do what I can with limited knowledge, but if you could look at them (it) as well, it would be much appreciated. Thanks. NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • [/wiki/Special:Log?user= logs ] • email ) 03:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem at all Larry, I appreciate the look-over and the assessment tremendously. Thank you, and happy editing! NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • [/wiki/Special:Log?user= logs ] • email ) 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The luckiest peoples in the world
Well, I don't have a good solution to the possibility for confusion by future editors, but it seems to me that, when "people" is used as a singular word (as opposed to the plural of "person"), it basically always has the meaning of "an ethnic group" or "the citizenry of a country" or something along those lines. So, it doesn't seem like it should be used in this instance. Let's put up a note on the template page saying, "yadda yadda yadda, don't put individuals" instead.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 04:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Bhudda
I am tagging the Bhudda article's lead paragraph for a rewrite. You seem to be qualified to look into it. Please either rewrite it yourself or discuss before taking it off. Ta! frummer 00:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good job so far! Glad you took it well, most "native editors" get really annoyed when I tag a cleanup. I'm not familiar with the 5 precepts though I have actually heard of them. Actually I don't think any 5 things can be similar to the 7 Noahide Laws since it is a Judaic concept which in turn means numerals are concise. In other words each number is a concept. You name sounds Jewish, are you!? frummer 19:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well thats very interesting. That reminds me of an old Jewish legend that Bhudda was King Solomon, im not sure if there is anything to it but there is a story in the talmud which some people say coninsides with details of bhudism. Its kinda complicated and personaly I woulndt put my money it! ...I though you where Jewish coz you seem to put allot into your spiritual quest. For other's a creed plays less of a role in life. frummer 23:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you can be bold and actualy insert the proposed lead paragraph and the other two that you suggest on the talk page and see what kind of reponce you get. By the way, how many kinds of Bhuddism are there? Which one is the mainstream? frummer 23:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Fetters
Excellent re-naming, Larry. We need to do it on a bunch of articles - if anything, so that I can soon start expanding Mahayana-related articles, with respect to the the difference (my knowledge of Theravada is nowhere near yours). Thanks!NinaEliza (talk • contribs • [ logs ] ) 17:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please note my new name change, Larry. I will be joining Wikiproject Buddhism again shortly. I have much to add in regards to our new proposal. Nina Odell 16:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll still be involved in the name changing project, but only as I see the need. I'm going to be trying to recruit some more Mahayana Buddhists soon to help out. I'm currently supporting (read: working for) BadBillTucker at the moment. I'm going to be very busy!Nina Odell 21:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Template buddhism
Hi, thank you for asking about the template colors. Yes, I did select it on the basis of what we think of as "Buddhist colors". I've seen your work, and if anyone can edit the template and make it better and more user friendly, it's you! Feel free to experiment! :D--216.254.121.169 02:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)