User talk:Lathdrinor

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Hello, Lathdrinor, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 10:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
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Sockpuppet you encountered before
User_talk:Kwamikagami. Help me revert this guy's edits, he adding maddive amounts of OR to many articles.Jaabaat (talk) 03:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi
I've noticed you've been changing recent edits by on Oracle bone script, Shang Dynasty, Zhou Dynasty and other articles. I now see that you're right that some of them were WP:UNDUE, especially Jiang Yuan and Houji. I'm also grateful that you still maintained a sizable portion of my contributions. Concerning other reverts however, i believe you removed relevant sourced info, which i intend to hopefully reupload in a less undue manner. On Jiang Yuan you rephrased my contribution into stating that a hypothetical Jiang and Qiang relationship was recently introduced by Christopher I. Beckwith. This theory was actually proposed by Edwin G. Pulleyblank decades ago. I intent to correct this as well. Happy New Year. Krakkos (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi. I am happy to see that you are not intent on pushing Beckwith's rather idiosyncratic POV. I was a bit hasty on a few of the reverts, but in general, I do not feel Beckwith's views represent the scholarly consensus, as I have read a variety of works dealing with these subjects in recent times, none of which take Beckwith at face value. The primary thrust of Beckwith's hypothesis is based on a linguistic argument - he believes that Chinese is either a 'minimally maintained Indo-European language' or an Indo-European creole. This view is nigh universally rejected by other Tibeto-Burmanists and linguists at large. I refer you, for example, to the description of Beckwith under Sino-Tibetan, and also to this review in the Journal of Indo-European Studies: http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES3834web/13Reviews%28431-453%29.pdf, in which it is stated - "I can think of no reputable Indo-European linguist or Sinologist who would call Chinese a product of IE [as Beckwith tries to argue]", pg. 432-433. Peruse the material and wealth of cited sources in Sino-Tibetan and it is quite obvious that Beckwith is not just in the minority, but the *tiny* minority here. Consequently, just as I am not keen on mainlining Beckwith's view on Chinese's linguistic family in Sino-Tibetan and Sinitic, I am not keen on mainlining the view he derives from this linguistic idea in other articles. I have made a few additional changes and will inform you of this response. Lathdrinor (talk) 19:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for linking to the review on Beckwith's book by Karlene Jones-Bley and Marti E. Huld. It put's things in perspective. As you write in your response, the mentioned rejection by Indo-Europeanists and Sinoglists is regarding his theory of Old Chinese being of Indo-European origin. Taking that in consideration i suggest this quote belongs in the article Oracle Bones script, where this theory is already mentioned. Krakkos (talk) 21:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It goes beyond that. The article also criticizes Beckwith's over-use of the chariot burials as evidence. In any case, the bottom line is that even Beckwith himself is not sure whether Indo-Europeans founded the Shang Dynasty. That's why he uses "may even have been responsible" as opposed to "were responsible." Mainlining a mere *speculation* of Beckwith's in the Shang Dynasty article most obviously violates WP:UNDUE. I see only two satisfactory solutions: 1) leave Beckwith's speculation there but qualify it with the fact that it's not generally accepted 2) remove it altogether. I observe that the much respected Encyclopedia Britannica makes no mention of it at all. I do not believe Wikipedia ought to be so biased in favor of Beckwith as to advertise his conjectures. Lathdrinor (talk) 21:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

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Shang dynasty's language
Hello Lathdrinor. This concerns the Shang dynasty, Zhou dynasty articles, that is why I want to ask you this. Easy772 added a section called "Language" to the Shang dynasty (and Zhou dynasty) articles about that Shang's language was not Chinese but "a highly-creolized lingua franca based on languages of the Southeast Asian type". Easy772's edit was reverted by Kanguole, and Kanguole has started a discussion at Talk:Shang dynasty. But Easy772 has added them back. According to Talk:Oracle_bone_script's discussion on the language of Shang, the viewpoint added by Easy772 (according to DeLancey) is not a widely accepted one. What do you think of this "Language" section?--Balthazarduju (talk) 00:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, from the latest discussion on Talk:Shang dynasty, it seems Easy772 wants to go ahead with adding content about the Shang dynasty's Southeast Asian connection (Easy772 said "Before I add the statement, are there any objections?"). But without detailed context in the actual Shang dynasty article, I think it is very odd to just plainly state such material.  I also think other participants on that discussion, such as Kanguole, Zanhe, Ogress, Rajmaan, Nishidani, etc. might want to weight in before Easy772 go ahead with adding.  There should be a more of consensus.--Balthazarduju (talk) 05:10, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Lathdrinor, you are one of the most knowledgeable people on Wikipedia on matters related to ancient China, that is why I was wondering if I can ask you something about history of China outside of Wikipedia. I was wondering if you can leave an email address for contact (it can just be any, and not your personal one)?--Balthazarduju (talk) 12:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Balthazarduju, send it to lathdrinor3@gmail.com. Keep in mind I am not that active, however, and may take a while before responding. Lathdrinor (talk) 00:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Easy772 has opened up a dispute resolution but he did not include everyone involved; you might be interested in commenting as he only included Nishidani, Rajmaan and Kanguole. (I had myself added.) Dispute resolution noticeboard Ogress smash! 21:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Last time I spoke with Easy772, we reached an agreement by which I'd be fine with a statement to the effect of 'the Shang language is widely believed to have been an ancestral form of Sinitic, though there have been occasional proposals for a Southeast Asian affinity.' However, in case he deviates from this description, then I do want to be involved. Lathdrinor (talk) 00:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, he opened a DRN, so you could pop in and literally copypaste that above statement, because based on his conversations and some of the information he's posted under his username off-wiki, I doubt that's what he will agree to. Ogress smash! 00:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Lathdrinor, I just sent an email to you.--Balthazarduju (talk) 11:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Dispute board Shang dynasty
Hi Lathdrinor, it looks like on the Dispute_resolution_noticeboard, Easy772 has added his last Craniometrics discussion from the Talk:Shang dynasty to the noticeboard about Shang dynasty language. The section in the Dispute resolution noticeboard is called "Talk:Shang dynasty#Language", but Easy772 just decided to add these physical craniometrics discussion onto the noticeboard. Now there is moderated discussion, can you come to the noticeboard? The noticeboard also needs User:Zanhe and several other involved users to comment on the latest development as well.--Balthazarduju (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Shinsi
Deletion of Shinsi has been requested by User:Ogress for being a "a random place-name from Korean mythistory". You have partaken on this subject in the past, and I ask that you partake on the current discussion of its deletion here. Thank you. Cydevil38 (talk) 11:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

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