User talk:LaughingVulcan/Archive 1

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Welcome to Fishing Wikiproject
A part of this project is our Fishing Portal, furthermore, we welcome you to please participate in the nomination and voting procedures at Portal:Fishing/Nominations. Thank you and more power! Bu b0y2007 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! LaughingVulcan 23:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Space ice cream
Thanks so much! I was wondering why it wasn't working.--Banana 03:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

And the odds of convincing people we're not connected...
...are what, exactly? :-)

Was The Laughing Vulcan a Romulan or Klingon bar? I can't remember offhand...--SarekOfVulcan 05:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A Klingon Bar. The Romulan was just a visiting assassin posing as a Vulcan.  I had thought about that briefly, but unless you live in the central Illinois area I'm confident Admins will see through any allegation on that measure.  Don't know how public you are, but my identity on the web is fairly open.  Should anyone question that, I think we could point out that if sockpuppetry was the goal a Vulcan would do something much more logical than come up with such closely connected names. ;)  Or maybe we could appeal to the Vulcan consulate; it is good to see a fellow Vulcan on WP.  :D  LaughingVulcan 12:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. After all, editing Wikipedia is the logical thing to do...--SarekOfVulcan 14:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And so is Googling. :-) I know I must have read this, but darned if I remember anything about it...--SarekOfVulcan 14:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And congratulations on your perspicacity. Most people guess that my nom de plume is a reference to Sybok, Spock on Spores, or occasionally the V'tosh ka'tur.  You are the first person I've encountered who correctly deduced the name came from Memory Prime on the first try.  ;)  LaughingVulcan 00:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

HHO
Thanks for your comments on the deletion discussion, but I don't understand your rationale. What do you mean by "Omitting an essential part of a reference", for instance? — Omegatron 04:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

''I can claim that something was published in the Wall Street Journal, citing you section and page number. If I fail to mention that it's a paid advertisement, that fundamentally changes the nature of the reference.''
 * I don't understand what you mean. Where is the paid advertisement?

If I claim that something has worldwide attention, yet fail to mention that the attention is centered only in Ajo, Arizona and Henley Harbor, Newfoundland, you have every right to wonder just how worldwide it is.
 * This has been covered by news organizations in Florida, Texas, Illinois, Kentucky, and California, at least, but I don't know why the geography of the attention is at all relevant.

What meets "extraordinary" documentation to back an "extraordinary" claim?
 * What extraordinary claims? We're not saying "HHO gas disproves conventional laws of physics" and attributing it to Tampa Tribune.  We're saying "Some guy claims to have invented a process that, if true, would defy conventional laws of physics".  This is not an extraordinary claim at all, and is covered quite well by the numerous news sources.

I'm not implying that the subject is untrue
 * Parts of it are perfectly legit, and parts of it are clearly bogus.

that the sources are deliberately misleading
 * I doubt the news sources are deliberately misleading, especially since they contain both promotion and criticism. The wild claims are just your standard journalists-writing-about-things-they-don't-understand.  Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
 * As for HTA themselves, though, I don't see how they could not be deliberately misleading.

just that they (the references) were false to fact and therefore I wonder about the article's veracity
 * What references were false to what facts? I don't understand what you think is wrong with these references.

And, especially in an article that's been deleted more than once
 * How is that relevant? When an article is repeatedly recreated by different people you should reconsider whether the original deletions were in fact appropriate.

that still doesn't mean that I think this is something that should be in WP.
 * By what logic? What do you think WP is for? — Omegatron 06:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Then the article is about the person making the claims, and should be titled as such.
 * We did that before. We had an article on Denny Klein, but it was rightfully moved to HHO gas because the topic is the gas itself, Denny isn't notable for any other reason, and there's no accessible biographical information about him.  This isn't a biography, it's an article about a hoax.

If it's about the subject (the gas,) then the the subject needs to back its extraordinary claims in an extraordinary fashion.
 * No it doesn't. It needs to explain what extraordinary claims are being made, attribute the extraordinary claims to the people who are making them, and then attribute criticism of those claims to the people who are criticizing them.  It can also explain how these extraordinary claims violate known laws of physics.

OK, but the article still reads in format like it's legitimate.
 * Where?? Why do people keep saying this?  You're talking about HHO gas, right?

Dunno, it might be people who simply don't understand what they're proposing flies in the face of what's known about physics and thermodynamics.
 * I'm sure they're just deliberately misleading the public to sell more welding equipment. We need to explain this and explain why their claims are invalid.

'''It's for being an encyclopedia. :) So, obviously, I've had problems with this being a subject for an encyclopedia and the entry being encyclopedic.''
 * Why would you have problems with this being a subject for an encyclopedia article? Do you think we should also delete Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations, Cloudbuster, The Turk, Dean drive, and Hydrino?  Wikipedia is meant to cover everything that is notable, in a neutral, verifiable way.  That includes bad science, hoaxes, disputed theories, and cons.  See User:Omegatron and Replies to common_objections.
 * The main features of Brown's gas, in particular, are not even pseudoscience; it just has some dubious claims made about it on the Internet. It's our job to debunk these claims in a neutral, verifiable way.  But, as far as I know, Brown himself just made an interesting welding device.  He doesn't claim anything in his patents that is dubious, as far as I have encountered so far.  You might as well say we should delete the article about the 9/11 attacks because some people on the Internet make conspiracy theory claims about them. — Omegatron 23:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest, then, that the article topic reflect that it's a hoax.
 * But it does!
 * "and that similar dubious claims have been made about Brown's gas and water-fuelled cars in the past, but have proven to be hoaxes."
 * "and refer to HTA's demonstration vehicle as a "water-powered car" (a common hoax/urban legend that exploits popular misconceptions about the energy balance involved in electrolysis and combustion). This flaw in reasoning has been explained by Dr. Ali T-Raissi, Hydrogen Research Director of the Florida Solar Energy Center, and Sieglinde Kinne, Energy Efficiency Engineer for the Kentucky Pollution Prevention Center: Creating hydrogen from water requires an energy input, which is always greater than the energy produced by burning it."
 * What more do you want?

(But I can already see that this won't get past it's proponents
 * What proponents? No one editing the article believes in this crap.  The only proponent that has edited it in a long time is Noah, and he's been silent for months.  Nomen's just being disruptive by adding empty criticism and weasel words, which I and everyone else revert.  This is a dispute between a bunch of skeptics and a disruptive skeptic.  When he can't get his way, he nominates any related articles for deletion.  Disruptively.  With no justification.

I think I'm expecting that a WP article's title should truthfully reflect the subject (and if the subject is a hoax, the title should say so...)
 * Ah. I've seen this line of reasoning before.  I don't agree with it, but the exact title of the article doesn't really matter to me.  But to rename Bigfoot as Allegations of bigfoot sightings or Loch Ness Monster as Loch ness monster controversy is just stupid in my mind. The article title should be a neutral description of the topic.  Naming an article Ghost doesn't imply that we believe in them.  See List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts.   How many of those have "hoax", "controversy", or whatever in their titles?

''Am I correct in believing that you're just looking for how to document this accurately (which includes the 'hoax' aspects,)
 * Basically, yes. This is a little complex of an issue, though.  You can't just skim the article and vote delete.
 * The claims of usefulness as a welding machine are perfectly sane and legit. Of course you can electrolyze water to make hydrogen, and then burn the hydrogen as a torch to weld and braze and whatever.  Although a legitimate concept, this isn't new or unique.  It's been done since before the 60s.
 * The water-fuelled car thing is an obvious hoax that I've been following for a while (see water fuel cell, etc.) But when you do some research, you realize that HTA doesn't actually claim a water-fuelled car; just the reporters.  HTA does make silly claims like "primary fuel source" and "gets energy from water", in their promotional videos, though.
 * The claims of magnecules and other special properties are just confusing at this point, and were only made in 2006, so they haven't really been responded to yet by the scientific community. I am still in the process of wading through his paper and trying to figure out what exactly he's even claiming, and where he's getting the evidence for these claims.  But it's probably just as bogus as the rest.  (But until we have references saying it's bogus, all we can do is say "he claims x.  X conflicts with scientific principle y".)

and Nescio is in the 'This is a hoax and nothing more' camp?
 * I initially thought he was a proponent trying to censor the debunking (Noah also wanted the article deleted for the same reasons), but he appears to just be a pseudoskeptic. He just wants to sprinkle "allegedly" through every sentence and "this is not supported by mainstream science" in every paragraph, without actually reading the article, providing sources, or doing any real work, just because it seems like a hoax at first glance.  But, as I said, it's part hoax, part fringe physics, and part legitimate invention.  To say that HHO is "allegedly a gas" is just stupid; of course it's a gas.  To say that oxyhydrogen is "unproven technology" is stupid and wrong.  Oxyhydrogen is legit; it's the bogus "magnecule" claims and "unique new form of water" that are dubious.

''the same concerns are raised, standard G4. Which is now obviously untrue to me.''
 * Phew. It's a lot of work to convince people, though!  Lots of people just deleting from the hip.

''is how long you (and others) will keep fighting on the accuracy side? If it falls off the radar, there's little to keep an editor of the other camp to come in and "factualize doublespeak" the article. But I shouldn't worry about that.''
 * True, but that's the case with any article. There are much much more controversial articles in the project.  :-)

It sounds like you've got your hands full.
 * Certainly do. Help would be greatly appreciated.  Lots of stuff listed to do on the talk pages. — Omegatron 01:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Daimonin
Hi LaughingVulcan. Per your request at DRV, I have userfied the deleted article Daimonin to User:LaughingVulcan/Daimonin. Please do not attempt to move this article back into article space without express approval via DRV. Apologies for this taking so long. Best, Neil   ╦  20:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Copyright Q
Can I ask you another wikipedia/ technicval question too please? I'd like to cut and paste a map of Melbourne from teh Melbourne page into a thesis - can I do that and refer to the Wikipedia source ? Do I have to do anything else about permission or copyright? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darren Cronshaw (talk • contribs) 04:11 (UTC), 10 June 2007


 * I'll reply on your Talk page... LaughingVulcan 13:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Question on AfD for The Promise (Brianna Rieffel song)
Woops thanks for spotting it I completely forgot, I'm gonna remove the tags from the songs, I'll prod them after the AfD. -- lucasbfr talk 22:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Re:Daniel Brandt (14th Nom)
Thanks for your message, here. To be honest, I just stole the box from one of the other AfDs (which I assume is added automatically). Aparantly it has a template which includes Special:Prefixindex and picks up all articles starting with a certain prefix (in this case Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Brandt...). The briefs stuff is probably vandalism, but you have to wonder... --h2g2bob (talk) 01:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Are You A Fly Fisherman, or otherwise?
I am curious as to whether you are an avid fly fisherman or an all around fisherman. There is no bias either way. Fishing is fishing. Fly fishing is just funner than not fly fishing. --Mike Cline 00:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * On fly fishing: I've got a rod, reel, floating line, tapered leader, flies, fly box, jacket, books, and magazines. And I haven't gone or practiced yet. ;) No waders yet, though. Mainly I use a spincast from shore.
 * On the striped bass article(s)... On the striped bass talk I've got links to a copy of the Striper article with the fishing section cut out, and a separate article on the fishing section. I'd like to bring the fishing section up to its' own article, and close the holes in the main article, then apply any changes made to the Striped bass article in the interim, and C/P the Striper article and Move the fishing article to Fishing (Striped bass) or the equivalent. If you've got any good editing tricks there, please drop by and give a hand. :)  Laughing Vulcan  00:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * LV Start practicing casting. Get good at it.  Take the flies and fly rod fishing.  Leave the spinning rod home.  You don't need waders in the summer, you just need synthetic underware as they dry faster.   If you are catching Bluegill from shore with a spinning rod, you can do it with a fly rod.  If you are in Illinois (Land of Lincoln?) they haven't outlawed fly fishing there yet.  Anyone can cast a spinning rod, only fly fisherman can fly fish.  Become a fly fisherman.  I am almost 60 years old.  I don't know how old you are but you've wasted most of your life not learning how to fly fish.  Once you become somewhat proficient at fly casting, you'll find fly fishing to be an extraordinarily pleasant pastime, as well as an incredibly effective way to catch fish.  Oh, by the way, keep your cat away from the flies.  I will gladly impart any fly fishing advise at anytime.


 * I will look at the Striper stuff tomorrow. I think we are on the right track here.--Mike Cline 09:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

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Fishing Assesment Drive
what do you think of this? themcman1 Talk 12:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a bad idea at all! I wonder if it would be good to move or copy, and then enhance, some of the assessment information to the Assessment page as well.  (As well as a sublink to the Drive.)


 * Now all we have to do is make it happen! (And hopefully, having built it, 'they' will come.) :) C/P fr. User Talk:Themcman1  Laughing Vulcan  03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've not looked, but thinking about it, i could clear the fishing backlog in one session. Maybe we could do an 'inter fishing projects' drive?


 * My idea was actually twofold. One was to clear the backlog (which I think anyone could do in four dedicated nights - note that it's about 180 articles for rating. I think, assuming one spends 5 minutes reading each article and really evaluating its' quality according to the scale, that would take about 15 hours for an individual to accomplish. Spend 10 minutes and it becomes thirty hours. Spend ten minutes ten minutes, and it becomes ) But my other idea was, rather than just assessing articles by myself (or others by theirselves,) that the ratings would have more meaning if a small group picked a bunch of articles, each voiced our thoughts, and then took the average (or mean) of how we collectively rated each one. Or some other consensus-building method. Granted, anyone can come along and undo that with a rating change, but I personally feel that working on rating each article in a group would be more accurate. But that was just my idea. LaughingVulcan 02:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC) (C/P)


 * I 've tried to edit the template to accomodate the assesment. It didn't work, and i now need some help. See it at my workshop. themcman1  Talk 12:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi! I checked over the template.  I think we might have a couple of problems.  1)  I think the assessment drive will not necessarily be permanent.  That is, any editor can come along and edit an article's rating at any point.  So a template for it should be used in the Talk space of the article to document what the drive team members did, as opposed to being merged into the main Fishing Project rating template.  2)  Some syntax errors in that template.  So, what I did was c/p your template and the fishing rating template, and tweaked it a bit.  The result is at User:LaughingVulcan/sandbox/fishassess.  That template uses the following syntax:

or

Where date=the date that consensus is reached in the article. class=the class consensus reached by the team, same as fishing rating. importance=the importance consensus reached by the team, same as fishing rating. reviewers=the number of reviewers that participated in reaching the consensus.

I think that some of the paths might need to be edited. The path to "Assessment" should be to the (currently redlinked) assessment parent directory, which should explain the drive and assessment process. The path to the discussion should be in the "drive" "subdirectory."

What I'm envisioning for process is: a) An editor decides that an article would be good for the drive.  b) He/she places both the  template at the top of the Talk, and also the  -or whatever name- template down at the bottom of the comments, with their variables listed but not filled in. c) The editor lists the article in the "Drive" subdirectory of the assessment section of the Project. d) However many editors want to participate, participate. (I'm thinking 24-48 hours in general unless its contentious.) e) When consensus is reached, the original editor (or a scribe,) notes the result in the Drive page, and goes back and edits both templates with the result, probably subst: ing the second template's results.

Does this make any sense, and where do we want to go with this? Laughing Vulcan 16:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks good! Agree. I'll create a template to post on our members talk pages. What about dates? Start on Monday? I could probably get everything together for then. Length - two weeks? themcman1  Talk 17:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just moved as u left message. Fishassesment Probably wrong place. Am going to change to if ok.  themcman1  Talk 18:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you start work on the drive page please. themcman1  Talk 18:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Aha... We're both so dang quick that we're "talking" over each other LOL... I'm going to be away for a couple of hours.  BTW, the project box looks really good.  :)  But I would think that, since I took that photo and manipulated it for use in this userbox.  :D  But anyway, I'm off for a couple hours.  Laughing Vulcan  18:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Fishing Assesment Drive
As you are part of WikiProject Fishing, you may be interested in our assesment drive. It will last for two weeks, and starts on the 18th June. See the drive page for more details. Thanks, themcman1  Talk 18:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

first one! themcman1 talk 18:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * g2g. might be back on tomorrow uct 10:00 themcman1  talk 18:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Rfa
I think im going to nom myself for adminship. What do you think? themcman1 talk 09:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't come across as harsh. I was just wondering what you thought, and to be honest, it seems pretty true. Thanks for the feedback. themcman1  talk 17:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Endorsement
Thanks! Now, if I can just get some users without Trek handles... :-)--SarekOfVulcan 01:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eep! You missed the link to your home wiki, so the endorsement was crossed out! Try en:User:LaughingVulcan ...--SarekOfVulcan 02:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

template
sure! you created it, and it seems fine. move it when you want to. themcman1 talk 12:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

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GIC info
I do not know whether this info helps, but here are some web links and references to the Gandhi Information Center (23 June 2007):

Albert- Ludwigs-University Freiburg (Germany), Institute of Sociology: http://www.soziologie.uni-freiburg.de/Termine/

Peace Research Institute Frankfurt: http://www.hsfk.de/index.php?id=38&L=1

The Bertrand Russell Peace Foundation: http://www.russfound.org/links.htm

Mani Bhavan (Gandhi Museum), Mumbai (India): http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/relatedlinks/inforeign.htm

Swarthmore College Peace Collection (USA): http://www.swarthmore.edu/Library/peace/peacewebsite/scpcWebsite/Documents/ResourcesPeaceOrgs.htm

Canadian Centres for Teaching Peace (Canada): http://www.peace.ca/whoswhoworlddg.htm

Center for the Advancement of Nonviolence (Common Peace, USA): http://www.nonviolenceworks.com/snv/links.htm

Resources for Peace (givewings.com, USA): http://www.givewings.com/peace/peacelinks/peaceinfo.html

National Gandhi Museum (New Delhi, India): http://www.gandhimuseum.org/link.htm

Conscience and Peace Tax International (CPTI, Belgium): http://cpti.ws/links.html

The Nativity Church, Bethlehem (Israel): http://www.nativity-church.com/Nativity-links.htm

The Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research (TFF, Sweden): http://www.transnational.org/Resources_Nonviolence/Nonviolence_2001-2005.html

Pax Christi (UK Section): http://www.paxchristi.org.uk/links.HTML

Quaker Council for European Affairs (QCEA, Belgium): http://www.quaker.org/qcea/peacedirectory/topic/education.htm#G

Pax Christi International (Belgium): http://www.paxchristi.net/html/links.html

I do not know whether they should be included in the GIC article. That is why I place them here. In addition, there is a U.S. radio interview on the GIC website http://home.snafu.de/mkgandhi/interview.htm - hope this might help you a bit. Chrbartolf 23 June 2007

Now someone deleted the "Gandhi Information Center" website - what to do? Chrbartolf 27 June 2007


 * You have four options at this point:
 * Let it go. Obviously, you don't want to do this, since you asked the above. ;)
 * Request the deletion be reviewed at WP:DRV. This option is being listed just out of an obligation for completeness.  I will tell you now that I believe there is zero chance DRV will relist the deletion.  Doing so would be a waste of time (in my humble opinion.)
 * Rewrite a new article from scratch which is signficantly different from the deleted one. Note that if you just replace the article with a copy, or an article that is significantly the same, it may be speedy deleted under WP:CSD.
 * Read WP:USERFY. Understand that a Userfy is meant for you (and any others interested) to be able to continue working on the article, not just have it somewhere on Wikipedia, and that the article should be worked on with the idea to move the significantly changed article back to the article space.


 * If you decide that you want to request the former article be "userfied" (copied to your userspace,) go to the User Talk of the AfD closing Admin here: User talk:Seraphimblade.  Ask Seraphimblade if he would be willing to Userfy Gandhi Information Center to User:Chrbartolf/Gandhi Information Center.  Refer him to here if you want for a little of the discussion (User talk:LaughingVulcan,) but make your request clear.  Seraphimblade is under no obligation to grant your request, though I don't see the harm if he/she does so.  You have been forthright about your vested interest in the article, and seem like you're interested in imrpoving its notability.


 * If Seraphimblade says no, there is one other option for a userfy request. Feel free to ask me if you want to know it.  Laughing Vulcan  12:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Laughing Vulcan, but I am just right now writing a new book to be published by the Center, and this is why I do not find time. Is there a chance that someone works on the article and consults me for questions? Or will this be no option? My wish is to keep up at least a few lines on the "Gandhi Information Center" as wikipedia article so that the Center's existence cannot be denied or ignored. Thank you for your advise! Chrbartolf 27 June 2007


 * That's understandable. When I said, "it must be worked on," I meant that the burden of proving it needs to be kept in userspace rests with the users who are (or will be) working on it.  Anytime after an article is "userfied," any other editor may place the "userfied" article up at Miscellany for Deletion or Articles for Deletion (not sure which.)  This is rare, but it happens in cases where people use the userfy process as a way to "get around" a deletion and have the material still on Wikipedia, with no intention to edit it.  And, even though an article is "userfied" to your space, any editor may still edit it.  So you can have it userfied to your space, and have others work on it.  You may have the article userfied to any user willing to accept the material (though usually the request comes from the editor whose space it will be moved to.)  It's normal to then edit your main userpage User:Chrbartolf to add the link to the userfied article -- usually the Admin who performs the move operation will do this for you.  If you look at my userpage User:LaughingVulcan you can see my "Sandbox" section, where I keep userfied articles (I've had two directly userfied to me.)  It's also where I keep things I'm working on that aren't ready to go to mainspace yet.


 * I've also got to mention that in so-called "vanity" articles (horrid term, actually,) the deleting Admin may not permit a userfy on it. There are still other avenues to pursue in this case - but I just didn't want you to think that an Admin must allow a userfy.  But it can't hurt to ask.


 * Worst case: Ask for a userfy and the admin says no.  Take it to content review, and they say no.  You're still not out anything in that case except for asking.


 * Second worst case: Ask for a userfy.  It is granted.  As soon as you get the article: Open it for editing, copy the wikitext, and paste it into your word processor.  Save the result on your word processor to your local computer.  You (or anyone) can still work on the copy on Wikipedia on your userspace.  Then, if someone deletes the userfied article you will still have a copy to work on, on your own computer (someday...)  I've had this happen before.  I asked for the deleted article, it was userfied to me, and I determined I couldn't edit the article to survivable form.  I then conveyed the Wikitext to the article's creators to work on at some future time.  Then I asked for "my" userfied copy to be deleted, so I didn't have to worry about it anymore.


 * Best case: Ask for a userfy.  It is granted.  (Still make a copy on your local computer.)  Then you (and/or others) work on it until you have organizational notability proven, then mainspace it back to it's spot.  (Make a last copy of the text that moves back to Gandhi Information Center, so that if it's deleted again, you still have a copy to start over with.)


 * Last bit, if I had the time to work on it, I'd take into my userspace itself. But I don't have the time to work on it.


 * By the way, you may want to sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ ). That way your name becomes the link to your userspace, not article Chrbartolf -- this is an article name and not a Username.  I think I accidentally replied to a nonexistent talk there.  That, or use the manual signature " User:Chrbartolf " or " Chrbartolf ".   Laughing Vulcan  23:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)*

as follows:
 * I will keep for now**
 * Yes, I'll keep copies of the both, plus any miscellaneous. I have a good deal else from other people. What I will do, as I usually do, is put nowiki tags around them so they dont show up in search engines. When you want to work on them, or if you want them moved somewhere, tell me.  To see what they look like, or to work on them,  remove all the   and tags. put them back between rounds. don't save the page except with the tags on, or they will show up where they shouldn't. If you need help, ask me. If you want them in your space instead, just tell me. They are easy to move.
 * They are at User:DGG/sandbox/Chrbartolf.

Thanks, LaughingVulcan. I will almost always userify, tho preferentially not on a subpage of my page. If its copyvio or BLP, and the user is in good faith, I will email instead, after a promise not to reinsert. DGG 00:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts and explanations. I always use as signature Chrbartolf - will this be right in future. To be sincere, I do not understand the complicated procedure now, and I am afraid this might take a long time, a long time of absence of the wikipedia article on "Gandhi Information Center". Would be a real pity ... In any case, if you need some info, I will be prepared to give it to you, because Gandhi Information Center's "organizational notability" should be obvious to everyone, after all these activities and years ... It is just a matter of proper wikipedia text. Please go ahead soonest! Chrbartolf 28 June 2007

Thank you again for your kind cooperation, translation is no problem for me, but there are no additional "completely independent unquestionably reliable publications" (whatever this might mean in our societies), they are all in the hands of these responsible people who suppress good news by ignorance and indifference - this is it. I need not explain you why. It is quite easy nowadays to marginalize someone (and who?), and they (whoever they are) succeed daily! Now do not recommend to me professional PR management - this is a matter of "do-re-mi" (if you know what I mean). Chrbartolf 28 June 2007

Of course, you find entries in the library collection databases of the "Swarthmore College Peace Collection" (500 College Avenue, Swarthmore, PA, 19081-1399 U.S.A., 610-328-8557 (curator) - http://www.swarthmore.edu/Library/peace/ - and in "The Commonweal Collection, c/o J.B. Priestley Library, University of Bradford, Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP, Telephone: 01274 233404" - http://www.bradford.ac.uk/library/services/commonweal/index.php - (these are the two major university-linked peace library collections as far as I know) for "Bartolf" as well as for "Gandhi Informations Zentrum" - but I do not know if this helps you ... Chrbartolf 28 June 2007

Now "Prodego" deleted the "Christian Bartolf" article, in addition - what to do? Chrbartolf 28 June 2007


 * Okay, that is somewhat surprising (though not totally unexpected.) The last couple of entries you mentioned might become helpful.  I will check them out later.  A fundamental problem for yourself (and many nonprofit/ethical/philosophical institutions) is that they are difficult to reliably source for notability purposes.  Many unquestionably-notable organizations manage to survive without references, solely on the strength of their name recognition or pure size.  I wish we had separate notability guidelines for groups such as these.  We do not at present, however, and it would be very difficult to write objective criteria by which such could be established.  And I doubt that Wikipedia will drop notability requirements anytime in the future.  I wouldn't think of suggesting professional PR, as that would probably be a waste of money for you (even if you had it and could philosophically agree with the principle.)  But you could keep doing as you apparently have been, writing/publishing and giving interviews about yourself and GIC when possible.


 * So, as you ask, what to do? First, DGG has userfied both articles to his userspace.  (He is an Admin also, and Admins have the ability in most cases to reach into the "deleted" spaces and extract information and articles.  He also copied the personal article on you pre-deletion.)  As he mentions above, they are here.  When you click the link, you will see what looks like a mish-mash.  This is because the articles were "nowiki"ed - that was done on purpose.  The point is, if you click on "edit page" on that page, you will see the wikitext layout of the article.  Do not remove the " " and " " tags, as they remain there for good reasons at the moment.


 * Now, you can do several things with these articles. They can be edited further, to bring them to a point where they can be sent back to the "Gandhi Information Center" and "Christian Bartolf" articles.  You can copy the article wikitext (or the article itself,) to move them to a different Wiki that will take them.  (I will be searching to see if there might be a Wiki for this info as-it-is than Wikipedia.)  Finally, if you would prefer to have them in your userspace for working on instead (DGG notes that he normally doesn't take other user's article to his space,) that could be done quite easily.  But the "nowiki" tags should stay, since it's still a userfied article.


 * I suppose that's it for the moment. I need to check the rest of my watchlist and do some other WikiProject-related tasks.  Laughing Vulcan  22:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"LaughingVulcan" and David Goodman ("DGG") and "Seraphimblade", thank you for your efforts and explanations - I appreciate them very much! First of all, I do not intend to do PR work or become famous, but the readers of "Wikipedia" should be informed about the "Gandhi Information Center" and "Christian Bartolf", do you not think so? Second, those who are allowed to inform the readers could be you or someone else, but not me - according to wikipedia guidelines, as far as I understand. This is the reason why I have abstained (after grasping the rules) from "autobiography", "self-advertising" or else. Third, even if I change the text in the sandbox (during the next hour), I do not really know who decides when the new article will be restored, because I suppose the "rough consensus" could destroy anything, although notable, because of reasons you might better know about. Fourth, what other webpages will prove authenticity or notability except from government-related webpages or quotes in scientific works already found out during the past busy week - please explain to me! Fifth: Will there a chance or a way to represent these two articles in a new shape soon - by cooperation (and if yes, with whom?) - for the sake of the Wikipedia readers. Chrbartolf 29 June 2007

Now I edited this "sandbox" page :User:DGG/sandbox/Chrbartolf. Link from outside Wikipedia: - what else is missing and will be necessary? Chrbartolf 29 June 2007


 * You might want to do some cleanup and organization to the information, as it is currently in DGG's sandbox, I can't make a whole lot of sense of it. Maybe some sections and headers would help? I think DGG's suggestion of combining all the information into a single article is also a good one, it's certainly possible one article can be supported better than several. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the advise, Seraphimblade. Now the only way to cleanup for me was to remove the "nowiki" tags (in spite of LaughingVulcan's advise), but as I mentioned just before, this was the only way to cleanup. Now by following your advise, I could not follow the wish of LaughingVulcan although I would have wished. So, this is not my fault. In addition, I think that now it might only be a matter of possible improvements (but in which way and how and what?) and then to restore the articles soonest. Everything else would become a farce, in my humble opinion. In case, there is any other way for cleanup, please do it your way. Thank you again! Chrbartolf 29 June 2007

I would like to ask (according to Seraphimblade's advise of today) if the two rewritten articles could be restored. You find them at the moment here: [[User:DGG/sandbox/Chrbartolf] or outside Wikipedia: . Thank you for your kind attention and soon responses. [[User:Chrbartolf|Chrbartolf]] 30 June 2007


 * I don't know, but I don't think so. If you read WP:CSD, then ask yourself, "What are the odds that those who advocated nothing but Delete for these articles, and still have the article names on their Watchlists, will not immediately renominate them for speedy deletion?"  The answer seems like they might at this point.  I will begin some editing on that sandbox in a minute, and let's see if we can change them substantially and in a way that makes the notability more obvious.  Laughing Vulcan  16:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for editing the two articles and merging them into one, LaughingVulcan. I appreciate this very much, because I would like to leave this to an experienced editor. Now after you will have finished this editing process, I will only correct spelling or typing mistakes. Thank you again! Will you afterwards please also restore the article? Maybe you consult some administrator before doing so. All the best from Chrbartolf 30 June 2007


 * You're welcome, and I hope it works well. I'll write the rest of my reply over to User talk:DGG/sandbox/Chrbartolf, since it's less confusing to have one conversation thread about the article itself. Laughing Vulcan  17:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The combination of the two articles to the one now on "Gandhi Information Center", successfully prepared by LaughingVulcan, will do. In case you agree, please roll it back to Main Space. After all, I am too shy to do so - thank you! This message goes to DGG, Seraphimblade, LaughingVulcan. Chrbartolf 30 June 2007

After reading your fine comments (DGG and LaughingVulcan) I think the best continuation is to follow your proposal, LaughingVulcan when you just wrote: "I'd rather take a day or two now to reduce the chances of it being deleted again, then take the risk and see it disintegrated instantly by a passing Admin." This is why I remain without action during this day, before you will have finished your editing of the text for which I am very grateful to you, of course. After all, I just want to express that I do not complain about other editors at all. On the contrary, I am lucky about your cooperation and willing to follow your advice. To avoid any further misunderstandings, I communicate openly on the talk pages. It would have been easier for me to observe and just resign. But I identify with Wikipedia readers - that's it. The better the article, the higher the standard of the article, the more the article fulfills the criteria, the better for all. So, please inform me about the result. If there is anything I can do for you, please inform me as well. Chrbartolf 1 July 2007

Here I found Indian review sources:

- "An Introduction. Gandhi Information Centre, Berlin", in: Sansthakul. Monthly Organ of Gandhi Smarak Nidhi (New Delhi, India), vol. 28, no. 12, last page, March 1999

- "Book Review: "Hermann Kallenbach" (written by S.K. Bandopadhaya), in: Sansthakul. Monthly Organ of Gandhi Smarak Nidhi (New Delhi, India), vol. 29, no. 6, p. 21, September 1999

- "Book Review: "Letter to a Hindoo" (written by S.K. Bandopadhaya), in: Sansthakul. Monthly Organ of Gandhi Smarak Nidhi (New Delhi, India), vol. 29, no. 7, p. 23, October 1999

- "Book Review": "Hermann Kallenbach" (written by Piet Dijkstra), in: Gandhi Marg (Gandhi Peace Foundation, New Delhi, India), volume 20, number 1, pp. 110-113, April-June 1998

- "Book Review": "Wir wollen die Gewalt nicht" (written by Piet Dijkstra), in: Gandhi Marg (Gandhi Peace Foundation, New Delhi, India), volume 20, number 3, pp. 367-370, October-December 1998

There might be even one more review by Piet Dijkstra on "Letter to a Hindoo" for "Gandhi Marg" ...

Chrbartolf 1 July 2007

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