User talk:Leithp/Archive 4

This archive page is for messages from March 21 to June 1 2006.

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 * DELLA REESE?! HAHAHAHAHAHA! She does have some Junk In Her Trunk, though, so watch it Leithp cause that quicksand is DEEP;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 07:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That one seems a little, uh, incongruous compared to the various pieces of heavy artillery and WW2 divisions. I'm not sure I see how it came up with that particular chestnut. You should put your name down for SuggestBot. It's a good idea and it's interesting to see what it comes up with, even if some of them seem quite random.... Leith p 07:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Who says Della isnt HEAVY artillery:> Yeah I should try that...I need to start having some fun on here again.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 08:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Aha, it seems that it does throw in some random suggestions. Leith p 09:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I'll start editing Beyoncé Knowles (not in the Weird Science way)......being directed to articles on FHM's top 100 may intrigue. SoLando (Talk) 06:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This SuggestBot thing is a great idea and most of the suggestions are pretty good. Personally I'd like the opportunity to, uhh, edit Scarlett Johansson, if we're talking top 100.


 * Since I've managed to drag the conversation down to the gutter I should probably just shut up now.


 * Incidentally, what happened to the Nü Metal photo on your userpage Joel? Leith p 07:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Drag the conversation down? You're talking to a guy who doesn't know the meaning of conversational moderation. Good choice, I have to say. But I prefer Bouncy .....I mean Beyoncé. Swiftly moving on. The image? Ahem, I deleted it. The tee really was disconcerting.....so I plan on taking another photograph. With same kra-azay photographic style. SoLando (Talk) 11:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Questions
Do you already know ? It's a very useful Photo-Source (free). Another Question: Would you like to write on James M. Gavin? Kind Regards, John N. 14:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm familiar with the Imperial War Museum. They run a very good website, though their photos are generally only PD for pre-1955 UK government produced images. I'm vaguely familiar with the career of Gavin, and I think Max Hastings wrote a short bio of him in one of his books, so I'd be happy to help expand it. The de:Wiki article looks substantial, is there anything you could help translate? Leith p 14:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hastings did wrote a book about him? Where? Want to have it ;). I think i could help a bit. -- John N. 14:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's in his last book, Warriors: Exceptional Tales from the Battlefield (HarperCollins, 2005) ISBN 000719756X. It's just a short section though. The book is a series of short biographies of soldiers from Napoleonic times to the present. Quite good reading if I remember right. Leith p 14:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll have a read up on Gavin over the weekend and then start editing the article. I also posted a translation request at WikiProject Military history/Translation. Leith p 20:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok. Thank you. -- John N. 11:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Indian rebellion of 1857
Hi, We again have a case of vandalism at our page, see Indian_rebellion_of_1857. I would actually request you to revert it to the the previous version as on 10:25, 23 March 2006. I would request you to protect the page for it is very much prone to abrupt and absurd changes that are motivated by ideological views and complete disregard for the factual course. I would be willing to accept the administration of this page and related sites, in case there is no objection from other seriously active users there. --Raj 11:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * These kind of POV issues are very common on controversial topics. Unfortunately the most important articles are usually controversial. At the moment you seem to have a few people on the talk page willing to discuss POV issues, which is excellent because this is a great way to nip edit wars in the bud. The situation right now doesn't seem to have degenerated to the point where the Protection policy should be applied. I will, however, put the page on my watchlist to monitor future activity. You can also request protection from any admin at Requests for page protection.


 * One other thing, I don't think I have ever edited Indian rebellion of 1857, but I have been accused of an anti-Indian bias in the past (see Talk:Indian National Army). Personally I think the accusation was ridiculous, but I thought it might be worth mentioning if you want me to provide a neutral perspective. When protecting pages admins are often accused of preserving versions that accord with their own biases (see The wrong version). Leith p 11:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quick response. Personally, I do not mind a point of view which does not tally that of mine, provided naturally that i) it is based on logic and facts; and ii) is not insulting or derogatory for a particular social group. For I believe one can put forwards facts and derive completely different inferences of them. So that, mercifully, not all have to be of the same opinion. If you, for example, follow the discussion between User:sikandarji and myself on Indian rebellion of 1857, we represented very diverging views and could still agree on a text completely acceptable to both of us - not an unhappy compromise. So I would certainly welcome your contribution to the article. Let's see, what biases you bring in! ;-) --Raj 11:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not terribly knowledgeable on the Indian Mutiny First War of Indian Independence Indian Rebellion of 1857 and I think you guys seem to be doing good work, so I won't stick my ill-informed beak in. Leith p  12:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Adminship issues
The issue at Talk:Crossing the T is now finished and I'm not looking to continue a conflict however I felt compelled to mention a few things before I move on entirely. The purpose of admins is not just to use tools that others don't have access to; it is to be the experienced, knowledgeable and level headed anchors of wikipedia. I feel your actions were unbecoming of an admin and I wanted to explain why. note, I'm not going to trying to get your adminship revoked, the most I hope happens is that you find validity in something I mention and try and work on it.

When you spoke you brought up the following issues:
 * British articles should use British spelling
 * This is factual and might have been an fyi, but it seemed you were assuming this was a British article. In any even this wasn't helpful to the unfolding argument.
 * Dabbler was the first significant contributor so his view should be favored
 * The policy treats this as the "if all else fails" solution, not a primary discussion point, and as such it served more as a show of your favoritism than you mediation ability.
 * India speaks common wealth english
 * You did preface this with prevalence of dialect is irrelevant so I'll not push the issue, but this is at best a means to continue debate, not bring it to conclusion.

These points all favor British english. The primary reason I think you favored British english is that I should never have changed it because it was acceptable before. The fact that you write while planning for Wikipedia 1.0 (which presumably means you prefer CwE) and yet avoid systematic bias seems contradictory. Avoiding bias means avoiding regional dialect, and that includes both American english and British english, when possible.

One point I should ignore but is really bothering me is "Dabbler suggested a compromise at the beginning and you ignored it". This is a disturbing misrepresentation. I suggested compromise, and after I suggested it he was skeptical (although not opposed) to the idea. The fact that you missed this concerns me greatly.

My general point here is that if the first thing you'd said had been, "you two disagree about the spelling of a word, the policy says we should try and find a synonym that's dialect inspecific, let's do that" this issue would have been closed then. Instead you repeated points that had already been made, misused policies (by using the "if all else fails" solution when it didn't apply), and acted in a generally partison way. By far my biggest concern is that you didn't even mention the idea of compromise until I had brought it up a second time, and even then you didn't approve of the idea, but instead claimed it was the first time I'd mentioned it and left it at that. Vicarious 17:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Admins are not mediators and I have never claimed to be such. If you think my conduct was inappropriate then by all means you should file an RFC rather than making vague accusations. You appear to miss my point about WP 1.0 as well. I was implying that we should endeavour to write for everyone, that includes people in the US as well as those in India, Scotland or New Zealand. This isn't an either/or situation, we can do both.


 * Frankly, I think that you still misunderstand the manual of style and am thoroughly bemused that you have chosen to attempt to continue the debate on my talk page. Leith p 22:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the point of an RFC would be. At crossing the T the point was to decide what wording should be used, but that's finished now. My purpose on this page was to discuss admin conduct in applying policies. I've not succeeded here because you seem to disagree with me. If you think RFC would help, I believe my argument will withstand scrutiny, so feel free; however I only felt obligated to mention these points, not to make you agree. So, unless you wish to refer this to RFC, I'll consider this matter closed. Vicarious 23:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you expected from me. You managed to create a debate where there shouldn't have been one by making needlessly provocative statements such as "Your argument of 'why should thousands of others change their way to suit me' is an illustration of your ethnocentrism, not mine. I already explained why, because my way is 5 times as common. So, why should the majority of people change their spelling to suit you and the minority?". You've seriously misrepresented the discussion in your description above. But the matter is still closed, as it was when you took it to my talk page.


 * In any case I have better things to be doing now. Leith p 09:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

GBE
Regarding If you say so. But I'm sure I saw somewhere that O'Connor got a GBE for Compass, but wasnt presented with it until after his escape back to Blighty.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 07:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I looked up Churchill's Generals and The Biographical Dictionary of British Generals of the Second World War and based it on those. The source for the latter may well have been the former though, so it might be wrong. Leith p 16:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well your two sources trump my kinda-sorta one. The GBE is mentioned in the text, as well, so we must find and EXTERMINATE same.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 07:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he got his Order of the Bath honours in '40 and '41 (off the top of my head, I don't have the books to hand just now), so that might be what you're thinking of. Leith p 07:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe. But his papers from Liddel-Hart say his bath wasnt installed until 47 (Which is a long wait between Baths:). Clour me confused now.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Excuse me intruding. His Times Obit. 19 June 1981 says that he was created KCB in 1941 and GCB in 1947. He had the Croix de Guerre and legion of Honour. he was ADC 1946 to 48. He was an honorary LLD of St Andrews University. Lord lieut of Rossshire 1955. No mention of GBE. -- Op. Deo 10:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clearing that up, we can now happily eliminate the GBE from the article. If you've got access to the Times archive would you be able to retrieve Kenneth Anderson's obit? He died in 1959, I don't know the exact date I'm afraid. If it's any trouble then don't bother, it's only to save me having to exert any effort myself in writing the article. Leith p 10:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you for a most welcomed and enlightening intrusion! We Should mention the KCB, though. I'll replace the GBE with it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes I have dug out the obit. He died 29 Apr 1959 in Gibraltar, age 67. Was KCB, MC. Born 25 dec 1891, ed Chaterhouse & Sandhurst, gazetted Seaforth highlanders 1911. Posted to Indiaand arrived in time to see the famous Delhi Durbar of George V (Comment - I had not heard of that - must read WP!!) Gravely wounded at Somme on the openday 1 July 1916  - but got his MC for bravery in action. 18 months to recover from wounds. Then rejoined his regiment in palestine in time for Allenby's victory. AdjutantScottich Horse 1920-24. Quetta Staff College.GSO2 of 50th (Northumbrian) Division. 1930 commanded 2nd seaforths in India. Lieut Col at age 38. Ops on NW frontier for which he was mentined in dispatches. Then Palestine service and promoted colonel. 1934 command of 152 brigade of 51st highland Div at Inverness. Back to India as as GSO1 of 4th Indian division. At end of 1937 appointed to command of 11th brigade at Colchester. He trained it strenuously with inadequate equipment and took it out to france in 1939. During later days of Dunkirk promoted major-genral and put in command of 3rd Division.  So it goes on but now we are well into WWII and I assume you have plenty of info there. Else get the page up and I will add more -- Op. Deo 12:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's absolutely brilliant, thanks. I'll knock up a stub when I get back to my flat later today. Thanks again for the help, it's been a bit of a nightmare getting hold of anything about Anderson. Leith p 12:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

My RfA

 * Some of the opposes were a bit misguided, but never mind, you can always try again. You could give SuggestBot a shot if you're looking for articles to edit. Otherwise, having a look at the cleanup category is an option. And, if I'm being cynical, you could just hang out on IRC making inane comments for a month or two and ignore editing the encyclopedia. You'd be a shoo-in for admin then. Leith p 09:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Kenneth Arthur Noel Anderson
Well done on the Ike quotations. They well illustrate his character as described in The Times. -- Op. Deo 11:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Google books is a wonderful thing. It saved me a trip to library, although they're on strike today in any case. Cheers for the assistance anyway, I would have never got the page started without the information from the obituary. Leith p 11:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There is only one more thing I'd like to add to that page: the fact that a lot of his problems in Tunisia can be put down to his commanding a multi-national force and dealing with the politics surrounding that. Apparently the French refused to take orders directly from him and he had to put them through their Chief of Staff. I might write that up tonight. It reminds me a bit of the Kiwi generals having the power of veto on orders from the Eighth Army.Leith p 11:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

TanksGiving
Thank you bro.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 07:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Rollback
I'm a rouge admin now! ;-) Kirill Lok s hin 12:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject Newsletter, Issue I
delivered by Loopy e 04:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Cheers, Loopy. Leith p 07:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Dudley
More WWII stuff, I'm afraid. Do you have any information on Arthur Dudley Ward, CO of the 4th Infantry Division in Italy? I've only been able to locate one site, which is still pretty scant, and the London Gazette isn't too fortcoming with results :-( I know he became an officer in the King's Regiment in the 1930s - the principal reason why I'm interested - but that's about it. SoLando (Talk) 17:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Give me an hour or so and I'll get back to you. Leith p 17:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Beep" Thanks :-) SoLando (Talk) 17:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I want to thank you eloquently, but I feel compelled to exclaim WOWEEE! Again, thank you! I'll get round to writing up an article on him very soon...ish. :-)   SoLando (Talk) 18:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not difficult when you a dictionary of these guys sitting in front of you. The reason I needed an hour was because I was on my way out the office heading home. Leith p 18:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm still thankful, dammit! Don't ruin the moment of gratitude ;-) I think they'll be enough articles soon to merit the creation of a new list for the King's Regiment. Woooo..... SoLando (Talk) 18:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You know, I've just realised I've yet again replaced Alfred with Arthur. I seem to have an unconscious dislike for that name! SoLando (Talk) 19:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
Here's something a bit better and bitter than cake, for our precoscious one-year old Wikipedian. And instead of the tired old Happy Birthday song, here's a golden oldie from The 'Forty-Five': Lord grant that Marshal Wade May by thy mighty aid Victory bring. May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush. God save the King! --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Grrr...... Leith p 10:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Heheh I thought you'd appeciate that. Good thing we're not in a pub now or I'd have some serious apologizing to do to escape getting a serious "Heedache" :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Communism vandal
The commie vandal struck at: 17:31, 16 April 2006 82.38.180.58, article Bass Rock (Norfolk County, Massachusetts). I know there is a special place to report this particular vandal, but I can't find it. Rlevse 17:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's at Long term abuse/Wikipedia is Communism. I've just reported the IP now. Leith p 10:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I now use VandalProof and that's how I noticed this.  I know about him because he hit my History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) FA when it was on the main page on 22 Feb. Rlevse 10:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Goat Vandalism
Look at users Goat211 and Goat212 -- they are vandalism accounts created by the same person. He's probably got more. Rlevse 01:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Those two were indefinitely blocked. I imagine that you're right and they're part of a pattern of long term vandalism. Unfortunately the name list thing on editcount doesn't seem to work just now and I can't face filtering through several hundred thousand usernames on Special:Listuser to find more Goats, so I'm going to leave this for the moment. Alternatively you could make a checkuser request if you wanted to look into it further? Leith p 07:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * How do you do a checkuser request? Goat212 is not blocked (according to the talk page), only 211. Rlevse 09:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Block log shows the user is indef blocked. The easiest way to view the block log is through the link on their contributions page. The link to checkuser is WP:RFCU (not very obvious). Hope that helps. Leith p 15:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit on Cults
Leithp, regarding this edit, it believe the first sentence of the paragraph makes it clear that we are referring to both areas, would you consider reverting? Someone may come up with an example of a recognisable person living in Cults that would fit well and the page is stubby enough as it is... --BWDuncan 23:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You can revert it if you like, I don't have strong feelings about it. Regarding notable people who live in Cults, I can't think of any current residents but Alex Ferguson used to live by Cults Academy. Leith p 08:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

vandalizm
IT'S NOT VANDALIZM POV USERBOXES ARE ALLOWED BY WIKI RULES Anarchy, Inc. 15:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Reply. Leith p 15:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

More CFD fun
Request for comment: I have pointedly ignored the rather bitter aside regarding my good self, but I don't mind telling you that I get a tad p'd off with the low tone adopted by my detractors. Is such behaviour really conducive to the best interests of Wikipedia? Every single Scottish cat that I, or anybody else, has created is a subcat of the appropriate UK cat: a fact which the anti-English/Scottish/Welsh/NI cat campaigners choose to ignore or obscure. (While you are there, you may want to have a look at the Cinema of Northern Ireland deletion nomination. I really do wonder about some folk sometimes.) --Mais oui! 07:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Categories_for_deletion


 * Hmm, just got around to looking at this. Your point seems well founded and it looks like the correct decision should soon be made. Leith p 19:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * LeithP, thanks. I would very much appreciate it if you could contribute to the CFD discussion yourself.--Mais oui! 06:28, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Missed it. Sorry, I really should have responded quicker (I was away for the weekend). Give me a nod if it comes up again. Leith p 10:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks For The Welcome
Thanks for the advice too, i'm still feeling my way through all the Wikisms. If you notice me doing something really dozy give us a heads up. (Tristan benedict 13:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

Ahhh i see now! Thanks again. Novices hey what can you do? Tristan benedict 13:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Belated thank you
Thanks for all your help with Percival. I have to confess to being Wiki-ed out for a while. I will now try and get on the front page. ta Nickhk

Military history WikiProject Newsletter - Issue II
The April 2006 issue of the project newsletter is now out. You may read this issue or change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you by following the link. Thanks. Kirill Lok s h in 18:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do we have so few engineers as Wikipedians?
I am trying to understand why there are so few Wikipedians who are graduate engineers. Once I get a grasp on that, perhaps I may be able to formulate some ideas on how to attract more experienced engineers to become Wikipedians. It would be very helpful if you would respond to these a few questions:


 * Are you a university graduate engineer?
 * Please indicate in which of these engineering disciplines you obtained your degree:
 * Aeronautical or aerospace engineering
 * Bioengineer or biological engineering
 * Chemical engineering
 * Civil engineering
 * Electrical engineering
 * Environmental engineering
 * Mechanical engineering
 * Petroleum engineering
 * Other
 * In what year did you obtain your degree?
 * What attracted you to participate in Wikipedia?

Please respond on my User talk:mbeychok page. Or you may respond to me via Wikipedia's email which I have enabled on my User:mbeychok page.

If you would rather not respond at all, that's fine also. Regards, - mbeychok 04:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Bernard Law Mongomery
Hi, You updated the banner on the Bernard Law Montgomery page, which is great, but it says there are substantial things to be done, and these don't seem to be listed anywhere. Would you be able to get the mysterious assessment team to stick these down somewhere? By the way, I've stuck an information box on there now. First time I've done it, so if I've made any blunders, do let me know. Thanks MAG1 21:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The assessment was done by myself a couple of months ago when we were compiling the now superseded worklist of important military history articles for inclusion in WP:1.0 and was really just a cursory glance through (we had a lot of articles to assess). I didn't update the assessment when I changed the tag to the new system. I've just re-read it and it seems to be greatly improved from the last time I read it fully (probably when I was editing it last year) so it might well be suitable to be bumped up to A-Class. It'll need fuller references to pass WP:FAC, but other than that is good. The information box looks formatted correctly. Leith p 07:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm new to this
Hi Leithp, do you have any advice for me? I nominated the speedy deletion on the JSYD article. Your edit summary simply stated not "rm tag, not a speedy case" on the article and on the discussion summary it said "rm tag, was messing up Cat:CSD". I am confused, as I thought the article fitted the criteria, and I am concerned that reading through all the links I may have got Afd, / speedy deltion / db group or something else mixed up. I look forward to hearing from you. I believe my user pages and discussion pages are active. Bacmac

Reply. Leith p 13:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I have tried again, hopefully? , this time it is more in line with correct Wikipedia method - (its a bit confusing at the moment, but I won't learn unless I try" :)) Bacmac 04:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That looks like it's formatted correctly. I'm impressed, I seem to remember making a complete balls-up of my first deletion nomination. Leith p 07:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

resurrecting an indie band article
Hi - I'm trying to help a new user resurrect an article he wrote about an indie band, see User_talk:Hamilton_Styden. The article was speedied and failed an initial round at Deletion review. Since then, the user has worked on a copy in his user space and would like to resubmit it. Based on comments of yours at Wikipedia talk:Notability (music), I thought it might be possible that you've been down this road before. Procedurally the next step seems to be another round at WP:DRV, although it looks like this route rarely succeeds. Any other ideas for how to proceed? -- Rick Block (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My experience has been of undeleting articles that were speedied incorrectly (i.e by using WP:Music as a speedy criteria) and of going through deletion review recently with The Go. In this case the original speedy was incorrect. WP:Music was used as the criteria and notability was asserted, so it should have gone through AFD. This would have given the writer a week or so to make sure it conforms to any guidelines. If it were my article, I would just post the revised content, but you may disagree. In any case, I think it meets the guideline through at least the "featured in multiple non-trivial published works" criteria. Let me know how you get on.


 * Of course, none of this could have happened if WP:Music didn't exist........ Leith p 15:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Deck arch bridge
I don't know - what would you call it? --SPUI (T - C) 19:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That doesn't distinguish the tow different types of arch bridge though. --SPUI (T - C) 22:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Are compression arch suspended-deck bridge and tied arch bridge the same thing then? --SPUI (T - C) 22:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bridges - want to take the discussion there? --SPUI (T - C) 23:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hostile biography - what do you do?
I am a bit concerned about the Gillian McKeith article. It seems to be getting used as free advertising space by people who strongly dislike her. I know very little about the woman, although the little I have heard has been positive, so I was a bit taken aback by the very hostile tone which the Wikipedia article adopts. I have removed the article from Category:Quackery as I consider this to be clearly defamatory, and Wikipedia cannot lay itself so open to legal problems (I have also nominated that category for deletion, if you would like to take part in that debate).

Anyway, I am asking you because I do not quite know how to go about resolving the situation, but I feel that "something ought to be done". I commented at the Talk page, but to no avail. Any suggestions? --Mais oui! 14:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Uggh. This is where I start to dislike Wikipedia. Your options:
 * 1- Spend a large amount of time researching and providing references showing she's not universally despised and trying to get that on the page, very time consuming.
 * 2- Bring it to the attention of a relevant Wiki-project and hoping they'll do something about it. I can't think of one here.
 * 3- Bring it up on an appropriate forum. WP:VP?
 * I don't know that it's free advertising space, but it's certainly not neutral. There is no balance to the article. I'd put a POV tag on it. My advice may be valueless though. I can think of a couple of cases where my patience has run out and I've left articles that were clearly shit alone. I find this kind of thing utterly demoralising.
 * Oh, and likewise I don't know anything about her or her practices either. Leith p 17:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. I'll certainly keep a watch on it, but I just don't have the time, or motivation, to invest in turning it into a good article. I am sorely tempted to just cut it down to a stub with bare facts, and insist that every addition is referenced, but I'm not in the mood for the hostility that that is likely to incur. --Mais oui! 18:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Hey, thanks for the revert! I'd much prefer to respond with something according to my heritage, like "I'm a Scouser - I'm used to vandalism". Meh ;-) I hope you soon becom a more active contributor again. There is yet another surge in Wiki departures, so the project needs some respite :-) SoLando (Talk) 08:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem. My activity has died down due to two things: 1- I'm fairly busy at work. 2- I don't have a lot of confidence in the way the community acts or in the direction the project is headed. I'm most disturbed by the fact that the foundation is happy to stand by and accept harrassment of admins. To be honest if that's their attitude then I don't see why I should volunteer my free time to help them. Not all doom and gloom though, I saw some of your fellow scousers last night, quite entertaining even if I'm not a huge fan of them. Leith p 08:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I grudgingly concur with your sentiments. When I discovered Kate had left because of that raving lunatic who shall not be mentioned, I almost wavered. I personally wouldn't say trolls, vandals and disrupters are indulged per se, but, yeah, I've not been subject to their campaigns. There is that perception and a lack of overt...."solidarity" . Though that understates it, among many things. I just separate myself emotionally from Wikipedia when it does come to harassment, like most people. I'm not going to try and persuade you to become Wikipedia's Speedy Gonzalez again - my arguments are usually damned flawed ;-) Just don't leave! A great many I know on Wikipedia have understandably succumbed. Those Scousers, eh? *Cough* The Zutons *Cough* SoLando (Talk) 09:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Not a big Zutons fan I'm afraid. Clinic would probably be my favourite from Liverpool, though there are probably 1/2 a dozen other bands I like and don't realise they're from that neck of the woods. I'm not leaving, but I have little faith in Jimbo these days, not much in the current admin pool (at least in the most vocal of them) and none in the ridiculous arbcom, though that's always been the case I suppose. Leith p 09:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I refuse to respond to your first sentence, though technically I just did. Ahem. It's quite evident Liverpool has enriched the world. Really! ;-) But I digress. Yes, Wikipedia is flawed. I can't imagine anyone would contest it isn't. But it is the very concept of Wikipedia that should inspire and resolve those involved to remain involved :-) Don't you hate idealists? SoLando (Talk) 09:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)