User talk:LibrariesStillRock

Your submission at Articles for creation: James W. Lintott (January 29)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reasons left by Spinster300 were:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


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Spinster300 (talk) 14:01, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello,
 * It would be great to see an example of the "advertisement" language and I'd love any suggestions on fixing it. I pulled every claim and fact from sources, but it's my first submission, so please do let me know what I should change to reflect impartial research. Thank you! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey LibrariesStillRock!
 * Welcome to Wikiepdia, and most important, welcome to articles pertaining to my own particular interest - Chehalis and Lewis County! My apologies in advance for any upcoming typos and weird language - broke my hand over a month ago and it ain't easy to type right now.
 * I think what @Spinster300 is pointing out is that there are some stricter rules for WP:BIOGRAPHY than most other types of articles. There is a long history of self-publishing and worship of living persons here on Wiki, and the guidelines set forth for living persons help to mitigate that. No accusation towards you! Always WP:AGF!
 * One thing I would point out is the reliance of long, direct quotes on the Lintott draft. While necessary from time-to-time, editors are encouraged to follow a WP:SUMMARY style approach. Basically, take someone else's words and simplify it in a direct manner. Also, think boring!
 * Another point, using the phrase "according to" is usually not needed as the sources/refs provided will allude to such. The phrasing itself, despite no intent from an editor, can come across as an advertisement or an endorsement. Another way to put it - a page can read as a press release.
 * A final note - fantastic array of sources...well done and very jealous of you...yet, some of the sources are of Mr. Lintott's own works and words. The inclusion of certain facts and items to an article should always avoid a first-hand source. Humans (even the charitable Lintott family), are very attuned to writing their own history in much better, less conflicting, light. That's where WP:NEUTRAL comes in.
 * Again, welcome! Though your draft is open for anyone to edit, I'm not a fan of stepping on the hard work of others. Since you're new, and I'm a big supporter of encouraging new editors (see WP:BITE), I see this is a great opportunity for you to explore the multitudes of WP's and guidelines out there. Please don't be discouraged. You've already shown a grasp and understanding I have barely achieved after 4 years!
 * On a side note, there is a good chance that your Draft:Orin C. Smith Elementary School will probably be declined as well, but for different reasons. Usually, unless meeting a high threshold for WP:NOTABILITY, elementary school articles are rare (see WP:SCHOOLS and the many links for guidelines in place). However, if the decline does happen, I encourage you to pare down what you wrote and add in a section for the school at the Chehalis School District page! Nothing wrong nor against guidelines for that, and is common practice (plus it follows my Wiki spiritual guide - WP:LOCAL)!
 * See you around!
 * Shortiefourten (talk) 22:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Dear Shortiefourten, thank you kindly for pointing out so precisely what needs to be improved on the draft. I am very grateful!
 * Dear LibrariesStillRock, the subject is no doubt notable, but the tone of the article needs to be more plain and dry to pass Wikipedia's policy for neutrality. At present, the text and the various sections that the article is divided into read in a very promotional tone. I would suggest you make the article more concise – apart from what Shortiefourten mentioned about WP:SUMMARY, I would also suggest taking a look at WP:PYRAMID.
 * Please do not hesitate to reach out to me if you need help in editing your draft. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 14:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC).
 * Sounds good. I'll take another crack at it with these suggestions. Thanks so much! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 16:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This is extremely helpful and clear. Thank you so much! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 16:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * By the way, @Shortiefourten and @Spinster300, please don't hesitate to edit whatever/however. I might need your suggestions on the structure of the whole thing. I understand the idea of the inverted pyramid, but I'm not sure if I know how to form this draft into one. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thought I'd pitch in with your permission. Looks like we are concurrently editing but I am done with what changes I see might be needed. Glad to have helped and hope all the WP's and guidelines aren't overwhelming. I know in my first days and weeks and months and years they were.
 * If you have any other concerns or questions, I can be of help. Not great help, but some!
 * Shortiefourten (talk) 17:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Haha, it's been a lot of reading but I'm enjoying learning about the process. I so appreciate the help! I realized the same thing and stopped editing. my bad! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 17:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @LibrariesStillRock, I just came across your draft and ended up on your talk page, and thought I'd give you this tip: if you reply directly to the AfC messages like this one, without pinging the editor you want to reach, you're unfortunately shouting into the void - we don't get notifications for this! (We're working on it... slowly.) To be sure the editor sees your message, you can make a new post on their Talk page, or you can ping them by typing the @ symbol and picking their name from the drop-down (or typing it, if it doesn't come up). -- asilvering (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, LibrariesStillRock. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page Draft:James W. Lintott, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the edit COI template);
 * disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see );
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see );
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I have read the COI guidelines and definitely understand that they are necessary. Could you tell me specifically what caused you to flag the draft as a potential COI? I did live in Lewis County for a long time. Does that mean I shouldn't work on articles related to the area? I saw your comment about the website testimonials and that definitely makes sense. I think what I took as proving notability instead came off as promotion. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * With respect, the questions are a) do you have an external relationship of any kind with the subject, James Lintott, and b) more specifically, are you being paid or otherwise compensated for editing this article; not why I might wish to ask about this (let's just say my spidey sense was tingling). Would you please answer the questions? Thank you, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to avoid questions, I just didn't realize you were asking me to specifically respond to them
 * a) I think it would be fair to say I have any kind of external relationship with the subject based on my having lived in the area where Lintott is from, where a school and park are named for his family. I previously taught at Cascade Elementary, which predated Lintott Elementary b) No, I am not being paid to make this. That Wikipedia is a volunteer collaborative, educational effort is something I value.
 * I understand and respect the high level of scrutiny for Bios of living persons. Please know I was only responding in earnest to understand and amend any issues. I made several edits in the draft following the advice in responses here. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 19:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, understood; thank you.
 * Can I ask one more thing: how did you pick this subject to create your very first article on? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 19:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I had this article in mind, specifically, when joining. I was surprised there wasn't a page for Lintott, and weirdly enough, for the "Mystery of the Oakville Blobs" which I thought both would be a blast to compile drafts on. There was also lacking info on the Orin C. Smith page. I also had considered working on a page for the Southwest Washington Anti-Racism Movement, and some other people and organizations from the Lewis County area. I started with Lintott because he's the most high-profile on this list, I guess (at least in Southwest Washington terms), and when I started, I didn't realize I'd end up finding as much as I did. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 19:26, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 19:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Would you be willing to help me understand what flagged this concern for you? Since yesterday I've tried to cut down on the "peacock" terms mentioned before and make it more dry. I'd be happy to keep getting feedback. (recently moved since my partner took a new position and this rabbit hole is an effective job-search procrastination tool) LibrariesStillRock (talk) 20:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, sure.
 * You registered your account recently, made a couple of relatively uncontroversial edits, and then created an article. Usually when that happens, the account turns out to have been registered for the very purpose of creating that article.
 * The article in question is a fully-fledged one; that's quite remarkable, considering what we usually see from new users. (Speaking of which, I haven't asked, and won't ask now, if you've previously edited under other accounts.)
 * Moreover, the article is on a subject which is prone to COI/paid editing, ie. companies, individuals, products, etc. – anyone or anything with something to gain from having an article published in one of the top-10 websites in the world. (Very seldom do we see COI editing on, say, a geographical feature or an ancient philosopher.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 20:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That all makes sense. I haven't ever made a Wikipedia article before, but I've done my fair share of research papers which have given me experience in source and research gathering. And like I said, I actually did have this article in mind when registering the account, I just didn't foresee that as being potentially problematic. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 21:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

AfC notification: Draft:James W. Lintott has a new comment
 I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:James W. Lintott. Thanks! asilvering (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Hey thank you for the comment and sorry it took me so long to get back to you! When you say only the first two sources qualify as significant and independent of the subject, why don't the other news articles count toward that as well? It's my first article as has been discussed here so forgive me if that's a dumb question. I will look for a book review or similar piece of independent coverage! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey, I was able to find a research article referencing the May Liang and James Lintott Scholarship for epilepsy and a local news story that cites their foundation. I also found a Folgers Shakespeare Library thing that talks about them donating, but I don't know if that's ultimately "independent" since it is a donor spotlight. Let me know if this bolsters the notability. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 17:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Orin C. Smith Elementary School has been accepted
 Orin C. Smith Elementary School, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Orin_C._Smith_Elementary_School help desk] . Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider.

Thanks again, and happy editing! Toadette ( Let's discuss together! ) 07:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Orin C. Smith Elementary School


The article Orin C. Smith Elementary School has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Most elementary schools are not independently notable and often sent to AfD (see WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES); in this instance, all citations are from a local newspaper, the school district, or state databases, thus not meeting GNG."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Sounder Bruce  00:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I personally like what you did with this Orin C. Smith Elementary School article. For a new Wikipedia editor, this article is great! However, as noted in WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, we don't generally include pages for every school as Wikipedia could fill up with a zillion pages about schools around the world. All those schools might be important in their town or community but the question is if they are "notable" outside of their community? Why is this school notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia?
 * The key point mentioned above is that all the references are from local sources. If you look at WP:AUD, it explains more:
 * Attention solely from local media (e.g., the weekly newspaper for a small town), or media of limited interest and circulation (e.g., a newsletter exclusively for people with a very unusual job), is not an indication of notability. At least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary.
 * If you can find mentions about the school that are in larger publications (and are also "significant", i.e. more than just a one-line reference), and can add them into the article as references, then it can go farther in establishing notability. For example, were there articles in 2014 in regional or statewide publications about the donation of the land? Are there mentions in national media about the Starbucks CEO giving this donation?  Adding links to those kind of media sites instead of just local media indicates that the school may be more notable.  I hope this helps explain the process a bit. - Dyork (talk) 15:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This definitely helps a ton. I totally understand. There is one Seattle Times story about the student achievement initiative, but if that doesn't bolster the notability I'd be happy to put this information under the Chehalis School District main page. Thanks for the tips! LibrariesStillRock (talk) 15:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Orin C. Smith Elementary School for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Orin C. Smith Elementary School is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Orin C. Smith Elementary School until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.  Sounder Bruce  20:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't be discouraged!
Hey LSR!

First - you have a clear talent for research and Wiki (and WA state!) desperately needs that talent.

Second - although the elementary and Lintott articles aren't working out, it's nothing you did wrong. It's all about achieving a high threshold for notability. Unfortunately for primary schools, it usually means a natural disaster or...something horrific involving bullets. As for living people, well, it's a massive floating scale and most of the time it feels like a hit-or-miss.

Third - please, please, PLEASE!!!...don't give up!

As a final note, I transferred most of your OCS Elementary writing to the Chehalis School District page, slimming down some stuff, you know, to keep it boring and summarized! All credit to you...not the boring part, though!

Hope all is well and I'll be seeing you around more often.

Shortiefourten (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much, I appreciate it a lot. I recently got a new job and it's been ramping up so I've had less free time but I do intend to keep at it :) If you have any recommendations for articles or edits I'd be happy to take them. I love to research and write when I can.
 * Thank you for transferring that information to the Chehalis School District page, too! I think it's worth having somewhere even if not in its own page. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 20:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * P.S. do you think I should give up with the Lintott one? I don't know how long I should leave it up for review LibrariesStillRock (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey LSR!
 * Out of town for the eclipse but glad to see you're still going to volunteer here! As for the Lintott article, there are a couple options - let it lapse for six-months and it should automatically delete (I think); you can request personally for it to be deleted (stating your reasons); or request it be moved into Draft or your own User Draft space, where it can be worked on as need by you or others in the future. If you decide to delete, request it - helps to lighten the backlog and other editors who deny/accept new articles would be grateful.
 * Lintott is clearly an important figure around those parts, especially Chehalis. But when it comes to a BIO of a living person, boy, there's bigger hurdles than just local importance. Unless it can be established more concretely his importance with news sources (newspapers or radio/TV interviews at a national level or even regional like the Seattle Times or Tacoma News Tribune, or Portland papers or broadcast/radio reports; KING 5 News, local NPR/PBS stations...) Although you and me are Chehalis/Lewis county fans (fair to say, yeah?), personally, I don't think it'll pass as of now. Do not get me wrong - absolutely fantastic work, new editor or not! - it's just all about notability that's sourced.
 * As for other articles to work on or create - anything! Not be vague, but I saw your Mt. St. Helens addition and man, you got the talent and the goods. Since Lewis County and SW Washington is underserved, you can start anywhere. I have drafts working on Parks and Rec in Centralia, NRHP sites in Chehalis, and a few others. I've been colleting sources for Chehalis history, as well as the history's from Pe Ell to Packwood, for years. It's just the time to write it all in the limited time available.
 * What I would suggest is - what's your interest? - and start from there. For instance, say you like the natural geographic features of Lewis County, then hit up some of the articles pertaining to that and before you know it, you're gonna wanna edit everything and anything pertaining to this neck of the woods. I never knew I'd be interested in Twin Transit or the Chehalis River Basin Strategy, but here I am!
 * Again, glad to have you here. One more typist to elevate Washington articles is what's needed!
 * Shortiefourten (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hahah, this is all very encouraging, I appreciate it.
 * As far as interests, I'd say I know a good bit about LC's geography and I'm also interested in the Chehalis River Basin Strategy and other local ongoings. Do you think an article about the strategy would fly? Because that would be fun and have plenty of supporting sources. Another one I'm considering is an article on Sea Lion Management? There's so much to pull from and a lot of new research that I have enjoyed reading. LibrariesStillRock (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey!
 * Is there a draft ongoing for the CRBS - you bet! - User:Shortiefourten/Chehalis River Basin Flood Authority
 * Although it's in my user draft space, please feel free to add, clarify, source it better. Every time I think I get close to publishing it, I find something else to add. I built up a subsection previously at the Chehalis River page - Chehalis Basin Strategy - and then created the draft as it starting getting big. If you have anything to add, be WP:BOLD, and if you do, make sure any conversations or questions about that topic is on the article talk pages so that it's all kept tidy and in one place like Wiki wants it.
 * As for the Sea Lion - not familiar though I've been reading some stuff lately about salmon habitat needs to be protected from voracious predators such as seals and orcas. If it'll fly as it's own article, you'll know from experience about notability now. If not, you can always add it as a section or subsection on a closely related article, spinning it off later as it gets bigger and better sourced. That's perfectly normal, standard, and encouraged.
 * The geographic features for LC is lacking, that's for sure. I'd love to see articles created for waterfalls - like Cathedral - and some better expansion on the Willapa Hills and local rivers and lakes. Geo is not in my wheelhouse, as my husband says, but it needs the attention from a solid editor, whether that's a rookie like you or a constant delete/backspace typist like me!
 * Noticed that deleting the Lintott article has been passed on, so it's good to know it's not bothering anyone! Some of the behind-the-scenes stuff I'm still trying to figure out. But it looks like it's fine as is until...whatever happens, happens.
 * Have a good one.
 * Shortiefourten (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: James W. Lintott (April 21)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by ToadetteEdit was:

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.


 * If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:James W. Lintott and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
 * If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
 * If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk/New_question&withJS=MediaWiki:AFCHD-wizard.js&page=Draft:James_W._Lintott Articles for creation help desk], on the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ToadetteEdit&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_decline/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Draft:James_W._Lintott reviewer's talk page] or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Toadette ( Let's talk together! ) 09:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)