User talk:Lightbreather/Archive 15

Sockpuppet investigation
Hell in a Bucket (talk) 03:07, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Per Defending yourself against claims (linked to in notice above), I have not abused multiple accounts or IPs and have not breached the policy on meat-puppetry. Lightbreather (talk) 19:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, in this day and age there are so many guys who don't like GGTF-type efforts who know how to fake the appearance of coming from an IP in a specific locality, not to mention fake a similar writing pattern. I've seen cases with much clearer evidence rejected. Just more dubious stuff going on... Carolmooredc  (Talkie-Talkie) 13:39, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Block notice

 * If there are privacy concerns that administrators may not be aware of, that's fine, but as such the unblock request will need to be evaluated by a functionary who can review the material in question. It should be noted that I consulted with GorillaWarfare yesterday before I posted my findings. She informed me that she was unaware of any privacy concerns through the functionary or arbitration avenues that would discourage me from posting the behavioral evidence. Mike V  •  Talk  19:05, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. GW may very well be unaware, since I have not been able to share my concerns explicitly and privately with her. Clerk is aware of who I have reached out to. Could you consult privately with him and see if one of those people is able to reply to the pleas that I sent? Lightbreather (talk) 19:13, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Request to remove 1-week unblock extension

 * Salvio replied to my question regarding the block extension he placed. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Salvio_giuliano&diff=636148503&oldid=636122559 Gaijin42 (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks, I saw that, but I'd still like another admin to consider my appeal. Of course I'd like personal info revdeled - and I've got outstanding Requests for that - but I wouldn't just try to delete it. That would be stupid, and it (simple deletion of a couple paragraphs) wouldn't do much to address my underlying concern/request. Lightbreather (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The info you want revdeled, is it the info in the diff I posted above that was used to extend your block? I'm not sure that is rev-del worthy, as it is just referring to information that you posted on wiki, but in any case you could request revdel directly from oversight by emailing oversight-en-wp@wikipedia.org with the specific info you think should be removed. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * can you please at least undo the block extension while I'm waiting to here from someone privately about the first block. This was not me. I don't live in Phoenix, and I was out to dinner with my husband when that happened. I've done some stupid things in my life, but I wouldn't do anything that stupid. Please help. Lightbreather (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am quite sorry, but as I said on my talk page, applying Occam's razor, my conclusion is that the IP was operated by you. Of course, I accept review of my actions and, so, if another administrator wants to revert my block extension, they can do so. Concerning your request for revdeletion, I can only say that it's being discussed on the dedicated mailing list and you should receive a response soon. Salvio Let's talk about it! 00:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * two IP addresses were looked at re this SPI. The first was mine, which I used about 36 times on the ArbCom PD talk page for, IMO, the legitimate reason of privacy. (Others saw it as avoiding scrutiny, so I was blocked; I understand that.) The second IP address - the one that led to the extension of my block - was used once to make a deletion from the ArbCom PD talk page, but that edit was not made by me. As I've said, I've done stupid things in my life, but not that stupid. I was out to dinner with my husband when that edit was made. Even Gaijin42, whom I've had disputes with in the past, told Salvio that I'd been poked by IP addresses before, and that he (Gaijin) thought someone was "stirring the pot." In cases like this, the opinion of an (often) opponent is worth considering. Gaijin knows me pretty darn well.


 * I ended up taking care of the information (some of it, anyway) privately. I knew simply deleting it wouldn't really help, and that's why I'd asked to have it revdeled (not just deleted) from the get-go.


 * Anyway, to reiterate, the first block was frustrating, but I don't deny that I edited logged out for those; I simply disagree that my reason for doing so was inappropriate. However, the block extension (from 1 week to 2) really upsets me - because I didn't do it nor do I know who did it. I was blocked and I concentrated on addressing that block as best I could from my talk page... the only place that I have edited since my block was started.


 * Nonetheless, I'm not asking for another review. I just wanted to point out that there were two separate IP addresses involved, and the second one, who used it, and why they used it, are a mystery to me. Lightbreather (talk) 19:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi With due regards, I would like to say that I have seen too many joe jobs, deceitful acts aimed at undermining others to have faith in IP behavioral evidence of this sort. Behavior and spellings mistakes can be easily discerned and faked. Besides, if it was a proxying service, the CU should have known that it was a proxy service. If the CU says it is not a proxy, then, is it even possible for LB to have covered the geographical distance between the locations in the time difference of her edit  preceding the edit in question, and the edit in question ? If that distance cannot be covered within the time, then it should clearly prove that it was not LB. Even if it was a proxy, someone doing a joe job can also use a proxy. Why overlook that ? You say that "Using multiple accounts to push a point of view in contentious areas is a serious problem here." That much is correct, except that the edit for which LB's block was extended does not seem to push any POV at all. If this, is the edit in question, it is redacting some purported outing, rather that pushing any POV. Considering these, I request you to take a fresh look / reconsider the block decline and not to overlook the possibility of a joe job ( without having a concrete reason to overlook that possibility ). Thanks in advance.OrangesRyellow (talk) 07:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello. I am familiar with the ideas and patterns of the joe job. I do not think this is the case here. However in deference to your concerns I am open to another admin reviewing this block. Chillum 08:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I respect your quick agreeability to another admin doing a review. LB can put up a review request if she wants. However, you do not seem to have shown any concrete reasons for overlooking the possibility of a joe job, and do not seem to have directly dealt with any of the arguments I have put up. If there are no real arguments which could discoult my arguments, then, perhaps, you yourself could could recognize that my arguments may have substance, recognize the possibility that the edit in question may not have been made by LB, and reconsider the block decline ? OrangesRyellow (talk) 08:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think I am wrong, but I agree it is a possibility. I am open to review but in my 8 years experience as an admin joe jobs are more clumsy impersonations. This was an example of subconscious idiosyncratic behavior that passed to duck test. If I hear hooves clacking on the ground behind me I think horse, not zebra. Occam's razor. Chillum 08:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for recognizing the possibility. That all the joe jobs in your 8 years experience were clumsy affairs seems predictable because it is improbable that expert joe jobbers would be found out in the first place. So, your line of reasoning does not seem to be very strong ? We have lots of admins with lots of experience with socking, but ALL of them failed to see User:Darkness Shines was a sock of User:Mark Nutley. I hope you see my point ? In light of that, can we take simplistic reliance on experience ( which is fallible, as evidenced ) and justify it with Occam's razor ? If that be the case, it means we behave as if there are no sophisticated joe jobbers, even after we were fooled by Darkness Shines for years, and sophisticated joe jobbers can continue framing innocent users unless they confess. This does not look like a good state of affairs to me. I also see no reason to think that there was any proxying by LB, and that LB could cover the distance between the two locations within 50-55 minutes. I certainly think that the unblock decline should be reconsidered. OrangesRyellow (talk) 10:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, we are Wikipedians. As Wikipedians, we are supposed to discuss things and show good reasons for saying the things we say. You have been fending off what I have said by an appeal to experience, and seem to be taking a staked out position saying things like "my point of view, you are welcome to another" in edit summary. If we are going to take staked out positions, what good it is to discuss and try to convince each other ( as per Wikipedia's traditions ). Are you sure that you have been able to explain/buttress your conclusion in any way except seeming non-arguments like appeal to experience, and "my point of view...". ( I am not trying to trivialize your arguments, and I have said this only because it is necessary to make my argument ) ? Yourself being a long-time Wikipedian, is it too much if I expect you to change your opinion when you do not seem to be showing substantial reasoning behind your opinion ?OrangesRyellow (talk) 14:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is about who is right or wrong. You have recognized the possibility that this may be a joe job. That means there is room for doubt that LB has socked ? If yes, that, in itself should be reason enough to lift the block. If there is room for doubt, there is no need to wait to establish who is right / wrong.OrangesRyellow (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You seem to be saying that the test the block reviewer should be applying is beyond reasonable doubt. It's not. There's always "room for doubt" in SPIs without a CU. The reviewer has to make a judgment call on what's most likely. That's been done. Someone else might well make a different call and Chillum says he's happy for another admin to do that. DeCausa (talk) 16:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The unblock request was declined using Occam's razor, which is a faulty criteria because it assumes that simple things are more probable, as if sophisticated things don't exist, or are rare. If we look around at our world closely, we find that the world is full of sophisticated things and systems, and even things which seem to be simple, often turn out to be not so simple. Moreover, it is a criteria which will always favor joe jobbers because considering the possibility of a joe job is more complicated than ignoring that possibility. You seem to be saying that the reviewer should decline the request even though he himself has doubts about the block, and having once declined, should keep declining because he has made the decision once and for all, and thus cannot change his opinion, even if he has doubts. Oh joy. BTW, LB, I believe, if you want a re-review, you have to put up another notice using the review template.OrangesRyellow (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

For the third time now, although I disagree with the reason for the first block, there was no getting around it because the charge and the evidence were made publicly, so I couldn't argue my defense without confirming what had been outed.

BTW, does anyone remember that Hell in a Bucket originally said at the GGTF ArbCom, I'm inclined to believe the IPs [plural] editing here are some of the case parties logged out. Or remember asking Hell in a Bucket to EMAIL his evidence? Instead, the evidence was focused on one IP, and publicly.

... But I digress, the first block, I can't really fight. The truth is that I was editing logged out, but the reason why, and whether or not it was block-worthy, is a judgement call. But the second block - the block extension? The truth is that it was not me. I was out to dinner with my husband when that IP editor did what he/she did. And it would have been stupid for me to do it because A) I, a regular editor, cannot revdel info, which is what I wanted (and eventually got, partially, through Oversight), and B) I would guess that such an edit, evading my block, would have resulted in another block or a longer block.

I don't like it, but I can live with that first block in my log, but the second one is harsh because it brands me for something I did not do. Lightbreather (talk) 23:18, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Block questions
Can or some other functionary explain this to me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ALightbreather

--Lightbreather (talk) 04:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * This edit from a Phoenix IP, removing information about you. Presumed to be block evasion. I have posted a message to Salvio with some thoughts. User_talk:Salvio_giuliano Gaijin42 (talk) 04:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * On my mother's ashes, it wasn't me. Also, could someone please revdel the location info? Lightbreather (talk) 04:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, could you please block Hell in a Bucket for a bit, or ban him from the GGTF ArbCom pages? And maybe PROTECT those pages?  Lightbreather (talk) 04:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

And is this kosher? Especially while I'm blocked? Lightbreather (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

IP addresses that have commented on the GGTF ArbCom talk pages - plus one that has been banned for disruption
Since some editors have expressed such concern about whether or not the legitimate use (say, perhaps, for privacy) of an IP address is overridden by inappropriate uses (take your pick), especially in an ArbCom case, here are some IP addresses that have commented on the GGTF ArbCom talk pages that, for some reason, have not been "scrutinized."


 * 1) 122.177.11.190 (talk) Geolocates to Delhi, India.
 * 2) 12.249.243.118 (talk) Geolocates to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
 * 3) 204.101.237.139 (talk) Gelocates to Ontario.
 * 4) 2.125.151.139 (talk) Geolocates to Rochdale, UK (Greater Manchester)
 * 5) 67.255.123.1 (talk) Geolocates to Vestal, New York.
 * 6) 90.213.181.169 (talk) Geolocates to Rochdale, UK (Greater Manchester)
 * 7) 94.54.249.249 (talk) Geolocates to Istanbul.
 * 8) 71.11.1.204 (talk) Geolocates to Stamford, Connecticut.

The following IP editor found the above information so disturbing that he/she kept deleting it from my sandbox! (He/she has been banned for disruption.)
 * 1) 91.232.124.60 (talk) Geolocates to United Kingdom (Manchester ISP M247 Ltd).

--Lightbreather (talk) 20:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know enough about all of the involved parties and others who are participating at the GGTF ArbCom, but I know that two involved parties - - are from or have recently been in Manchester, and that at least two others -  - who have commented on the case have strong ties to Manchester. Therefore, I am concerned that at least three of the IPs given, the Manchester IPs - could be sock or meat puppets. Lightbreather (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not one of them. That is a pretty specious connection you are making and you may wish to reconsider it. - Sitush (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Without evidence it should be ignored out of hand, the differences in blocks here and Lightbreathers is that there was more evidence other then just a location to indicate sockpuppetry. It will all be behavioral based and there really isn't a lot so unless it's completely telling it's an argument that doesn't hold water. If evidence can be given other then just a location then that's a different story. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a very serious allegation you're making. Eric   Corbett  22:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * It looks like one editor will be banned for, among other things, making unsupported allegations and wild assumptions. J3Mrs (talk) 22:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Wait a minute... At least nine IP users comment on the GGTF ArbCom page, but only one is picked out of the bunch to check as a sock/meat? More than one person there suggested that IP users may not participate in "discussions internal to the project." Others talked about avoiding scruitiny, and in a way that suggested that scrutiny overides the legitimate use of alternate accounts for privacy. Why aren't these other editors held up to the same standards as the one? Is there a double standard? Lightbreather (talk) 22:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You getting caught socking isn't a case of being "picked out" (picked on?) randomly. There was clear behavioural evidence that gave you away, not just location. State your behavioural evidence and I'm sure someone will transpose it to SPI. DeCausa (talk) 22:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * So ask a CU to check out those IP addresses, but I absolutely guarantee that none of them will correlate with the users you've named. Eric   Corbett  22:49, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * CU's won't publicly link the IPs with registered users like that - as was seen in the Lighbreather SPI case. It will come down to behavioural evidence, hence my request to Lightbreather to cite her behavioural evidence. In the Lightbreather SPI case, she was caught socking through behavioural evidence after the CU was declined.DeCausa (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That's certainly the official line, but I think we all suspect that CUs are performed in secret all the time. Eric   Corbett  23:02, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I can unequivocally state that I have never commented on that case under anything but my own username. In fact, as far as I remember, I have never contributed to wikipedia as an anonymous IP. Richerman   (talk) 23:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

, since you claim to have some skill at sniffing out socks, I hope you don't let this drop. It won't help me, but it will take some of the sting out of being singled out as someone whose privacy means less than at least eight others who are commenting anonymously, without scrutiny, on the GGTF ArbCom. Lightbreather (talk) 00:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Evidence re Manchester (possible) socks/meat

One to the GGTF ArbCom
 * Evidence for Manchester IP address 2.125.151.139:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=629250227


 * There is an interesting comment in this post:
 * If I could understand the scope of this case and wasn't in hiding, I might be tempted to list others where you didn't apologise/retract but obviously should have done.


 * This immediately after saying:
 * You make a lot of that general type of error, Carolmooredc, causing you to make fairly frequent apologies, retractions or amendments. An example would be your assumption that Montanabw was a man.


 * Which reminded me of this Blame game? discussion, especially the comment by J3Mrs, Don't forget when an editor disagreed with you on the GGTF page you accused her of being male....

And one to a user talk page
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dougweller&diff=prev&oldid=629276476


 * I've seen this same sort of comment (sometimes playful, sometimes like a dissertation) over what a term means multiple times by Eric Corbett and Sitush.

My gut tells me (as Hell in a Basket says) that this IP editor may be J3Mrs. Or, considering the "in hiding" remark and things Sitush said that are given in the next section - Sitush.

Lightbreather (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Your gut is 100% wrong. I don't even live in Manchester or even Greater Manchester. I suggest you retract it. J3Mrs (talk) 23:45, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Do you ever visit Manchester? Lightbreather (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes I do visit Manchester, it's still not a crime, but you can't seriously think that I would travel there to edit anonymously? I am perfectly capable of speaking my mind logged in. I don't know whether you can categorically deny you haven't edited while logged out but I can and I think you should apologise. J3Mrs (talk) 00:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Three to the GGTF ArbCom (for a total of about 2.5Kb added to case discussion)
 * Evidence for Manchester IP address 90.213.181.169:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=629742872
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=629743261
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=629780209

And one to WT:Noticeboard for India-related topics
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics&diff=prev&oldid=629759866

All of these posts were on October 15, 2014. In an talk page discussion Party to Arbitration Case, Sitush said:
 * Doubt I'll be adding evidence. I am once again briefly in Manchester but will soon be leaving and am thus spending my short bit of time here refuting errant claims etc in the Workshop phase.

At this point, Sitush had already announced his "retirement," and in this post he says he doubts he'll be adding evidence. He also says that he is in Manchester.

All of this - Manchester, the GGTF ArbCom, India-related topics, the timing - suggest to me Sitush.

--Lightbreather (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Evidence for Manchester IP address 91.232.124.60:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/91.232.124.60


 * When I became aware that this editor was going to just keep removing information that I had in my sandbox to study, I asked him/her to email me so we could discuss.


 * He/she replied, "I'll not be emailing you. Do not provoke EC and Sitush with this. It is EXTREMELY unwise."

This person deleted this information over 36 times, and was finally blocked by.

--Lightbreather (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * In what sense is that "evidence"? Evidence of what? Eric   Corbett  23:06, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * If nothing else, it's at least evidence that someone in Manchester really doesn't want to have IP editing in Manchester related to the GGTF ArbCom case scrutinized. Lightbreather (talk) 00:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Lightbreather, this kind of tit-for-tat will get you nowhere. I have queried the necessity of your block on the SPI page.  I hope you get unblocked, and make careful and thoughtful comments at WP:ARBGGTF/PD (talk) if you wish.  If not, then a week goes by surprisingly fast, especially if you forget about WP. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC).

Request
Lightbreather, I think the section above is causing more of the same drama that we saw at GGTF and ought to be closed down. 90.213.181.169 and 2.125.151.139 are Sitush editing logged out (not socking, just not logged in – e.g. ).

Re: the IP that was reverting your subpage (91.232.124.60), consider requesting a CU by email. Ditto with any of the other IPs if they were causing a problem. Posting a running analysis here is just going to cause more trouble. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:02, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, SlimVirgin. I am just out the door to dinner with my husband. If I can't get back on tonight, I will be back tomorrow. I will think about what you and others have written here. Lightbreather (talk) 00:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * (some sort of edit conflict, not sure what is going on) Well, if that is me editing while logged out then I apologise, even though it makes no difference really. I'll dig around what was happening at that time. I can absolutely guarantee that it was not deliberate and I suspect a similar thing has happened inadvertently even on the arb's voting page. I'll let you know the cause if indeed there was a cause. Chances are, it relates to using my mobile phone while away from home. FWIW, I think my ISP should locate to Sheffield but it has changed recently (and bears no real similarity to my actual location, which is in Wales), so who knows? - Sitush (talk) 00:53, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, the diff you give above is me. I even said so. - Sitush (talk) 01:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * No idea who this is but there are obvious reasons why someone from Delhi might be contributing
 * I suspect that this one might be accidental (WP:BEANS) but, really, does it matter?
 * No idea at all but not me
 * Ditto
 * This is me. I can send a CU some stamped photos that would demonstrate why this might occur. I apologise for the misunderstanding. I've recently switched mobile phones and was at a relative's house at the time (a house that is approx 200 miles from Rochdale, but that's how geolocate works sometimes)
 * No idea
 * Also no idea
 * Ditto


 * Hope this helps. Please note that the ones that were me are now irrelevant due to a change of ISP that has been forced upon me by a situation that is far, far more severe personally than the stuff relating to GGTF.


 * I am happy to release that info to arbcom directly and I'm happy to absolve WMF to speak with arbs about it. Far too many people have absolutely no idea what has been going on and, alas, there is a limit to what can be said publicly. You either accept that or you do not but, either way, it really makes no difference in the context of the diffs given. I have no opinion regarding your own SPI situation: I had a gut feeling but did not pursue it because, as I said at the SPI case page, I didn't think anything would come of it anyway. - Sitush (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

S.O.S.
Ok, this is getting very stressful.

I have asked to have some personal info about me here on WP revdeled. I have asked privately and publicly. It still has not happened.

MUST A GIVE EVIDENCE OF THREATS OF BODILY HARM TO GET ACTION ON THIS REQUEST?

Should I go to the WMF?

Will someone please take my concern seriously and advise me on who I can contact to get this taken care of immediately?

I am pinging a boatload of admin types here in hopes that someone will actually help me instead of dismiss me.

I would prefer to discuss this with a single functionary who can make a decision, but I'd be happy to share with two or three, if necessary... and privately.

--Lightbreather (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Did you email oversight? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes! They told me they could take no action, and to take it up with a clerk. I have emailed four separate admins, and I asked the clerk to ask one of them to contact me privately. Nada! Lightbreather (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If you have received threats of harm, send it to emergency@wikimedia.org.--v/r - TP 16:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I have not received recent threats of harm, but recent events here remind me of events leading up to past threats, which I cannot go into detail here. IS THERE NO-ONE PERSON OR SMALL TEAM (OF 2 OR 3) WHO CAN CONTACT ME PRIVATELY TO HEAR ME?
 * --Lightbreather (talk) 17:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Oversight are the small team. If they can't help, your next steps would be to contact the WMF.--v/r - TP 19:21, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, TP. I have contacted oversight again, and copied the drafting arbitrators of the GGTF ArbCom case. I have reiterated my request and given them lots of evidence (private). I hope this is taken care of today, and maybe I won't have to take a sleeping pill tonight. Lightbreather (talk) 19:44, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Lightbreather. Looking into the situation afresh (I've been away for a few days), I believe the functionaries have handled this correctly per their procedures. If you believe that additional information needs to be suppressed, perhaps discussing the matter with the WMF would not be a bad idea. Worm TT( talk ) 11:01, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Attempted outing
Without confirming or denying the accuracy of the information, I would like to charge with attempted WP:OUTING of my home or work location in relation to his speculating about my use of an alternate account. As I am still waiting to hear from someone privately regarding my block, how do I go about starting this process?

--Lightbreather (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the process would be to write a post here and use the helpme or adminhelp templates to ask for it to be copied to ANI. This may get declined, as since you are currently blocked, and this is an appeal of your block or anything, some may think it is out of process.


 * Also, without any comment about the merit of your particular issue, I think people may be weary of the drama related to the case, and also wary of the newly placed Discretionary Sanctions in the area. I fear you may get thought of in a tit-for-tat scenario, especially when it may appear you are doing it in response to your own block, and pinged numerous arbs and admins and not gotten anywhere. But in any case, that is what you would do to try.Gaijin42 (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't seem to get anyone to understand how scared I am, and your reply doesn't help. Sorry. I'm not saying you're trying to scare me, but I don't feel encouraged. I have sent an emergency email to Wikimedia, as TP suggested earlier. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * if nothing is going to happen with this, is there a way to just close out my account and delete everything associated with it? Lightbreather (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

You may not currently qualify for WP:VANISH since you have a block active. Perhaps after your block expires though. You could also ask for your user page, but all of your various contribs in the rest of wiki would remain. (If you are allowed to vanish, they would get renamed, but your signature lines in various talk pages would remain) Per vanish, you can ask for your user talk to be deleted, but such is the exception and not the rule. Also per vanish, due to licensing issues, it is not possible to actually delete an account. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As you have attempted to tie my user name to a location all this seems somewhat, I can't decide what word to use here but you get the gist. J3Mrs (talk) 10:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I panicked, and I apologize. Not for bringing up the eight IP addresses that no-one put before SPI, but for bringing up names. However, I still think someone should investigate those IPs. In addition to my original focus (hatted/habbed above), I think these two look very suspicious:
 * 67.255.123.1 (talk) Geolocates to Vestal, New York.
 * 71.11.1.204 (talk) Geolocates to Stamford, Connecticut.
 * But to repeat, I apologize. If you've never been through an SPI - I hope you never are! Lightbreather (talk) 15:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for acknowledging your error, attempted outing isn't acceptable whatever the circumstances. J3Mrs (talk) 11:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm the Stamford IP and I spend time reading Arbcom pages and the Drama pages to fill some blank time at work. I'm not related to anyone else. I've done some IP editing here and there as well. Sorry if you think that I'm related to a sockpuppet conspiracy. 71.11.1.204 (talk) 17:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey
When your block is up why not just focus on editing articles for a bit, you need to get this huge spotlight off of you and yourself out of the middle of the road so to speak. I am not saying to give up on your opinions but right now try to focus on content. Would you like to join a wikiproject or two and help out? I know there are a-lot of anime and manga articles that need work done if you are interested. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Anime and manga? Someone else once mentioned these might be subjects that interest me, though I don't know why.


 * At any rate, this is important to my peace of mind, and if it can't be corrected, then I'd just as soon wipe out any record that I've ever contributed here if it would mean revdeling Hell in a Bucket's and others' public speculation about where I live. I have been the victim of virtual and real-life harassment and anything else is just asking me to work in an environment that makes me open to further harassment. Lightbreather (talk) 22:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well if you have no interest in the area that is fine but you really need to stop making waves, you right now are splashing in the water trying to stay afloat when a lifeboat is right in front of you of keeping calm and addressing your problems later. You aren't fixing things from what I am seeing but only making them worse. I say these things because I don't want to see another editor go over something that can be helped. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

User page
Re your requests above, do you want your userpage User:Lightbreather deleted? NE Ent 23:16, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I haven't decided yet. I'm still reading about my options. The last one I read was WP:UP. What I'd really like is a revdel of personal information - which I don't want to discuss publicly. It's like a frikking catch-22. Lightbreather (talk) 23:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Question for administrator
Actually, I have two related questions. The first is the more straightforward of the two.
 * I asked to have my block extension reviewed because that IP action on the GGTF ArbCom page was not me. Plain and simple. The request is above, dated 15:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC), along with a comment from the admin who extended the block, who says he accepts review of his actions. (Per Blocking policy#Other important information).

--Lightbreather (talk) 21:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The day before that, two days ago now, I begged to have the original block reviewed privately because there are things I cannot share without potentially outing myself. Can this, as Mike V suggested, be evaluated by a functionary who can review the material in question (privately)?

Without commenting on the original, 1-week block of November 30, how can I go about getting a review of the second? IP address 69.16.147.185 is/was not me. I have done some stupid things in my life, but the edit that led to my block extension was not by me nor by anyone I know. I suspect that I either have a Phoenix area secret admirer or, more likely, a critic (probably not from Phoenix) with much more technical savvy than myself who knew that edit would be a surefire way to rub salt in the wound. Please lift my block; the original was set to expire today. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your unblock request is still active above, so that has added you to a queue for your request to be evaluated. (See here.) Also, you could submit a request through the unblock ticket request system. Mike V  •  Talk  23:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. On the Requests for unblock page, under "Unblock request time," mine is the only entry that shows "No timestamp found" instead of "x days ago" on all the others, so I guess I'll go back and add my sig/time stamp on my originals. If that doesn't help soon, I'll try the ticket system. Lightbreather (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Per Mike's response to my question yesterday, I have submitted a request through UTRS. The thing is, I would like to vote at ACE, and today is the last day to vote. If my 1-week block had not been extended by another week, it would have expired by now. As Salvio said above, he will accept a review. That discussion, Request to remove 1-week unblock extension, and this one give my reasons for asking for an unblock. Please help. Lightbreather (talk) 18:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Come for the drama, stay for the giggles
Just to drop a little laughter into an otherwise wearisome exchange...

Snap! You can't link to YouTube, but if you go there and search "The Penguin Dilemma" it is worth the 2-minutes out of your day.

--Lightbreather (talk) 17:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


 * People link to YouTube on their Wikipedia pages; I have. And I don't see anyone getting warned about it. Flyer22 (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Checkuser, please
(or any other uninvolved checkuser reading this), could you please run a checkuser on IP address 69.16.147.185? Because of the person's edit my original block of 1 week was extended to 2 weeks for "block evasion," but that edit was not made by me or by anyone that I know. Chillum, who was last to review my block said that he is open to another admin reviewing it.

To be clear, I am not talking about the original block, which has expired anyway. I am talking about the block extension that was placed on my account because IP user 69.16.147.185 deleted info from the GGTF ArbCom page, info that I did not delete. The only page that I have edited since my block was placed is my own talk page. Lightbreather (talk) 19:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Checkuser is not run "defensively", and they generally would not report information linking an IP to a named user in any case I don't think this request is going to get you anywhere. In any case, I am pretty sure the admins have said they were doing a WP:DUCK behavioral block. In those circumstances even a negative checkuser wouldn't mean anything. I am not accusing you of anything, I don't think the IP is you, but you could have been at a friends computer, or at work, or taken your laptop to starbucks,  somewhere else that would not have the same CU but could still plausibly be you. CU for the most part is nothing but an IP check, plus a few bits of info from the browser (user agent, patch # etc). Its trivial to end up with a different CU, it only trips up prolific socks, because very few people have access to dozens/hundreds of machines/ips. But for a "one-time-sock" its easy to avoid.  Gaijin42 (talk) 19:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I've seen references to "duck" many times, but never bothered to read it before. I just did. I can see how this essay might apply to my original block, especially since I have since admitted that I did edit logged out (IP 72-something) for privacy. But I did not do the IP 69 edit. Further, IP 69 made one edit, so there's nothing to it that can be compared to any "habitual characteristics" on my part. The edit that IP made, the info he/she deleted, was related to the info I asked to have revdeled, but I didn't delete it before my block, and I wouldn't have and didn't delete it after, either. It would have been pointless, and dangerous... as it ended up being for me even though I didn't do it. Duck also says:
 * The duck test does not apply in non-obvious cases. Unless there is such clear and convincing evidence, editors must assume good faith from others.


 * If it will help an admin, I can get a copy of my receipt from the restaurant I was at on November 30 (blocked Dec. 1) when IP 69 made the edit he/she made.


 * For Pete's sake, I'm not asking to have the original block removed, I'm just asking to have the extension removed. IT WAS NOT ME. Lightbreather (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As Gaijin42 said, CU will likely not tell us anything since we already have the geolocation of both IPs (perhaps your only defence is that they are different states (but that doesn't prove a lot). All I'd be able to tell with CU is whether you've edited on the 69.* IP with your account which is immaterial to the issue. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * OK. Let us consider a hypothetical case. How does one find out about an unexpected edit, read through it to understand what it is, from where it was made, find out some other user's location and correlate it with the new edit, calculate the distance between the two locations, work out all the intricacies / simplicities of Occam's razor, and implement a block with an edit summary containing a link to a relevant page, all withing four minutes ? How does it look if the person who did all this within four minutes is running for an election in which he/she could not hope to get the blocked user's vote ? ( The block prevents the user from voting ) Does it all look appropriate, very OK ?OrangesRyellow (talk) 03:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The extension of this block seems silly to me. I disagree that this is an Occam's razor situation—we had many IPs editing the arbitration case, and it seems equally likely that this could be another person or a joe job. Lightbreather admitted the edits from the first IP were theirs; I don't think it's unreasonable to extend good faith far enough to say that this edit was not. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I have given this my time. I have discussed this with the blocking admin. It is clear to both of us that once discovered by a checkuser you resorted to using a proxy thinking that would fool us. We know about proxies.


 * I am not changing my mind and I doubt the blocking admin will either. Please stop pinging me about this matter. I invite the scrutiny of the community as always. I welcome another admin to review this, but I am done here.


 * These blocks are not entirely separate issues as you insist in the collapse templates above. The fact that you had just engaged in sock puppetry is a relevant fact when considering the credibility of your claims. I think the any further review should take into account the sections you collapsed as to allow focus on the current issue. Chillum 18:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Chillum, please note that I didn't ping you here, but that admin did, who seems to be open to reviewing this. Therefore, I am thinking about making one more official "unblock" request, and hoping that others will allow GorillaWarfare to do the review. Lightbreather (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * At first look I thought it was Orange/Yellow pinging me again. I see now it was GW. My mistake, apologies to all involved. I did not think it was you. GW being an admin is welcome to review this and find differently, or any admin for that matter. Chillum 18:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I have reviewed this, and I do find differently, but I don't particularly want to overturn ban extension without agreement. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay well you are not going to get my agreement, at best you get my lack of objection. I discussed this with the blocking admin and we agree. I think it is a bit naive to believe the story given, however I am happy to have my sanity checked. That is why we have so many admins. Consider talking to the blocking admin yourself about this if you have not already done so. Chillum 19:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * That is precisely what I am attempting to do. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * @Chillum. We are basically an anonymous community and the right to anonymity is a vital part of our project. I suppose everyone here is familiar with the Essjay controversy. IIRC Essjay had pretended to be someone other than what he actually was, Jimbo was told about that, but Jimbo was OK with it because he rationalized that Essjay was fibbing about his identity in order to protect his anonymity. LB has also fibbed about the initial IP edits being hers in order to protect her anonymity. If it was OK for Essjay to fib in order to protect his anonymity, why is the same not OK for LB ? Why is her fib in order to protect her anonymity being held against her ?OrangesRyellow (talk) 03:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Joe job discussion
Regarding the Lightbreather discussion that Chillum started on Salvio giuliano's talk page, since I cannot respond there, I am doing so here. Lightbreather (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Chillum: I am wondering what you make of the claims by Lightbreather that he/she was framed for the actions leading up to the block extension. A Joe job sort of thing. I don't think it is plausible. The behavior was so idiosyncratic and not the clumsy impersonation that normally comes along with a Joe job. Just wanted to see if you saw any merit in the claim.
 * 2) Salvio: No, I agree with you and I don't see any merit in the claim. There is no gentle way of saying this, but, put simply, I don't believe her when she says she didn't do it; she has already lied before, when she denied operating the first IP (the one for which she was originally blocked), so I don't attach much credence to her protestations.
 * 3) Chillum: I am glad we are on the same page then. Thank you.

First question, before I even respond to the details, is how am I supposed to have a chance for a positive review outcome if the original blocker and the first reviewer (who ostensibly agreed to a second review) privately agree that there is no merit to the claim? Lightbreather (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Second question goes to Chillum's first set of comments. The single edit by IP address 69.16.147.185 was the deletion of info that was related to me. There were others involved in that discussion, Question to Arbs, who felt that the information should not have been presented publicly there (on the GGTF ArbCom PD talk page). Others who spoke up and possibly others who did not speak up. Could any of those editors have made that deletion, in a misguided attempt to help me get rid of the information that I had asked to have revdeled? Lightbreather (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Third question goes to same set of comments. There were others in that discussion who had no problem with my username and IP address being connected publicly (against policy) and possibly others who felt the same way and did not speak up. (In other words, they were hoping that I would get blocked.) Could any of those editors have made that deletion, in a malicious attempt to get my block extended? Lightbreather (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Fourth question, rhetorical, involves the alleged idiosyncrasy of IP 69's behavior. Which behavior? I have already had to contribute to the outing of my personal information (real-life IP address) in order to present my argument for why I edited not-logged-in. My argument was not accepted as legitimate and for that I was blocked. And that block has expired.

But the block extension was based on one edit. There was no pattern of editing to compare to idiosyncratic behavior (as there was between my 36 edits logged out to my other edits as Lightbreather). The information that IP 69 had deleted had never been deleted by IP 72 or Lightbreather. I had asked to have it revdeled because I know enough to know that simple deletion would not have protected my personal information. There was no good reason for me to get sneaky and get myself into trouble to delete something when I know that deleting it would accomplish nothing positive for me. It wouldn't truly hide the personal information that I wanted to hide, and it would very likely cause me to be blocked again or for a longer period of time. Lightbreather (talk) 18:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Fifth question is for Salvio and involves a hypothetical.

There is a highly controversial discussion going on that you would like to participate in anonymously. You read WP:SOCK and decide that Privacy must apply, because you see that at least eight other editors have chosen to participate anonymously, too. Near the end of the discussion, someone speculates that some of the IPs (plural) in the discussion might be "case parties logged out." A clerk replies, If you've got evidence of that could you please email it to me or the clerks' list. This makes you a little nervous, so you go to the main case page and re-read the Involved parties list. Your name is not there.

Six days later, the same person who had speculated before about IPs in the discussion being logged-out case parties PUBLICLY links your username to your IP address. Within a couple of hours, the same person starts an SPI and publicly asks for a checkuser, too. You still believe that your reason for participating in the highly controversial discussion, in which you were not an involved party, was legitimate. How do you defend yourself - without outing yourself? Do you lie outright - say "I am not Salvio" - or do you dance around the problem as best you can after reading Defending yourself against claims, and say, I have not abused multiple accounts or IPs and have not breached the policy on meat-puppetry. Lightbreather (talk) 19:31, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Re contrary claims
Now DeCausa joins in with his "pre-arranged alibi makes her difficult to believe" comment? Anyone who is familiar with my editing knows that I have on numerous occasions shared my RL plans when in the middle of an important discussion... as have many other editors, for that matter.

And Hell in a Bucket - who publicly outed my real-life IP address, without repercussion - chimes in with an "the evasion was her" allegation. He must believe that repeating an allegation makes it a fact. Well, it doesn't. Only one person knows for sure who the IP 69 editor was: the IP 69 editor; and only two know who was not: the IP 69 editor and I. I was not the IP 69 editor. Lightbreather (talk) 00:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

RFPP
Could I please get temporary semi-protection on this talk page so I don't have to put up with pokes from unregistered users right now? Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 22:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I've protected for 2 days (expires 22:53, 15 December 2014). By then your block will have expired, and if further protection is required, you can request it at WP:RFPP. Best, -- Diannaa (talk) 22:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Lightbreather (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Drop the stick
Howdy LB, recommend that you drop your complaints as you're hours away from being unblocked. If you've no intentions of contributing to the 'pedia, when your block expires & are gonna continue to protest? then you'll likely end up being blocked 'again' per WP:NOTHERE. We at WP:RETENTION, don't wish to see that. GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There are 10 bullets under NOTHERE. Which one do you think applies to me? I don't see one that says trying to clear one's name. I have given up on the original block, as I can see that others could look at it and call it "avoiding scrutiny," even if I say that I edited anonymously for privacy (which obviously did not work). But the block extension was uncalled for. I did not make the IP 69 edit and have not behaved in way that supports branding me a block evader and liar. Lightbreather (talk) 21:47, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The block is over now. So, the whole thing is moot. However, I have explained on this page, and some other places how the block extension was unjustified. So, you may take GoodDay's advice and drop the stick after all. You win some, you lose some. Not much to worry about there.OrangesRyellow (talk) 01:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014 GOCE newsletter
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Casting aspersions
Since other editors are continuing to discuss me on another talk page, I will respond here... since it's the only place I can respond for the time being.

In just the last 24 hours:
 * Admin has called me a liar or fibber multiple times.
 * Admin has called me a liar multiple times.
 * Editor has called me a liar.

WP:ASPERSIONS says, ''An editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence, especially when the accusations are repeated or severe. If accusations must be made, they should be raised, with evidence, on the user-talk page of the editor they concern or in the appropriate forums.'' Not one of these allegations was made with a diff or in an appropriate forum. That's called "casting aspersions."

As for the claim by Chillum that, Logging out to edit a controversial area is evasion of scrutiny, not protection of privacy, - WP:VALIDALT in the sock puppetry policy says just the opposite:
 * Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Wikipedia identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Wikipedia actions in that area.

The real-world consequence of editing as Lightbreather in controversial areas is that I have been harassed on- and off-wiki. That is part of why I quit editing (along with, of course, not being called a "cunt," but being told that editors can act in ways deserving of being called a "cunt," and similar comments and actions by other editors).

--Lightbreather (talk) 19:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Involved parties at the GGTF ArbCom
, you keep claiming that I was an involved party in the GGTF ArbCom case. This allegation was part of your reasoning behind why my editing anonymously was inappropriate, leading to my block. Here is your latest iteration of the claim:
 * Lightbreather didn't think she was an involved party, how in the blue hell was she not an involved party, she was involved in the case request, the first person filing evidence and then all of a sudden she retires and then comes back as an anon Ip.

Q: Was I listed among the Involved parties in the GGTF ArbCom? A: No.

Q: Was my name even mentioned on the main case page? A: Yes, once, by Carolmooredc. That's it. (Carol also thought 11 others should be added to the list; the only one added was Neotarf.)

Q: Was my name mentioned on the main case talk page? A: No.

Q: Did I provide evidence in the case, just before I quit WP? A: Yes. Evidence was also provided by at least a dozen other editors who were not listed as involved parties in the case.

Q: Did I retire "all of a sudden"? A: Yes, I got fed up with the hostile editing environment - even on the oddly named WikiProject Editor Retention.

Q: Did I come back as an anonymous IP? A: Yes, and with the exception of one observation on the workshop talk page, I made no comments at the GGTF ArbCom case until a month after I quit. I didn't participate to vandalize or to disrupt, but to participate in good faith - anonymously.

I was not an involved party in the GGTF ArbCom, but I was very interested in it, just like dozens of other editors, including yourself.

--Lightbreather (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * If you are going to continue running your mouth about me then I am not going to stay off this page. I'm going to reply en-mass and you probably won't like a lot of it. We have called you a liar because you lied. Simple as that, you came out of retirement on 11/14 yet you edited as this IP for your privacy [] From 10/26 until I called you out. Apparently privacy only matters when you are pretending to be another person and not presenting evidence o=under your account but I digress. Remember saying I was casting aspersions before and yet you want to do the same thing again? Face it you egged that situation on until you lost, you wanted to say as the IP I'm not involved, you can checkuser me, when I basically tell you ok put your money where your mouth is by using things you provided on wiki and all of a sudden it's outing (a statement no other editor other then ORY has endorsed btw). You wanted to present evidence as two people, it had jack squat to do with privacy, that was your beard and you expected the people here who work with socks on a daily basis wouldn't see it. You were part of the declined civility case (remember your conflict with User:Scalhotrod) and you started plastering your off wiki twitter site because of User:Eric Corbett. Can you explain how you weren't an involved party? You gave a massive wall of evidence, you participated in the discussion quite a bit, enough so we had behavioral evidence to tie you to the IP in addition to the location information. You edited as the IP and as yourself to make it look like another person that just couldn't handle the big bad eric corbett, you sacrificed your integrity and reputation because you thought you could get away with it and that more people wouldn't dismiss what you were saying because of your past antics and involvement in the same dispute. The funny thing is that even as you wrongly thought Echastain was a puppet of Sue Rangell misusing the clean start you were doing the exact same thing with the IP. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, your welcome to revert it but I'm going to link it into the conversation on Salvio's page so even if you do people can see the baloney. You want to say that there was other parties editing logged out too, maybe there was but they at least had the good sense to limit those posts to limit suspicion. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You were part of the declined civility case. You also mentioned this at the GGTF ArbCom. Why? And why both times without a link? I just went and dug around and found the last revision before it was declined. It's three months old, and your name was the first given in the original complaint. Yes, my name was in the list of involved parties, but the case was declined. Why are you bringing it up? I didn't initiate it. Scalhotrod isn't named as an involved party in it (so I don't know why you're dragging his name into it). Let's leave the old, declined case out of this and focus on this case. Lightbreather (talk) 21:28, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You started plastering your off wiki twitter site because of User:Eric Corbett. That's not really a lie, but it's not really true, either. My complaint is with the incivility on Wikipedia, of which EC is/was only a part. Not only the incivility, but the rancorous opposition that is rained down on those who complain about it. Lightbreather (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You gave a massive wall of evidence. My evidence was about 550 words - more than some posted but less than others posted, and no clerk threw it out as a "massive wall." Lightbreather (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You edited as the IP and as yourself to make it look like another person that just couldn't handle the big bad eric corbett. This is simply untrue. Lightbreather (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Lightbreather do you really want me to go and dig up the evidence for you since July/August of this year so you can claim I"m not casting aspersions. Once I do can I get assurances you will not seek retribution? I actually think out of Neotarf and Carolmooredc, you were the more reasonable. I can do this but really what will it prove? I know you don't want to admit it but you did a dishonest thing. Tough grits, I think we all do that from time to time though or have at some point. The fact that I answer the taunt of baiting says a lot about me, but can't we all agree to move on? Even if I dig up all the diffs does it change the fact you were blocked for two weeks? No. Does it change the fact that you thought it nec to use an ip. No. Was it inappropriate, you think no, the community thinks yes. Do you think that you can do what's best for the encylopedia and help build it and work with people? You have the opportunity to turn everything negative on it's head and be what your username implies and be a breather of light to the world. Find a different way to spread the message, it's a good message really it is, but the method you are using to try and change things is a problem. Don't dirty the message with underhanded methods, people will respect you and the message so much more with up front and unwavering integrity. If you do that even your opponents will have to admit even in disagreement that you handled yourself with dignity and deserve accolade. off my soapbox. I really hope you will take me up on the offer to just move on and not force me to dig up the diffs. I certainly will if you insist but I think you are smarter then that and your pride is hurting at the moment, help recover by moving on and improving. YOu don't have to disbelief or recant just send the message differently and you will see dividends. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


 * My hope was that someone would unblock me for that unjust "block evasion" extension. That and maybe apologize for calling me a liar. That didn't happen. Now I am going to sleep on what to do next. Lightbreather (talk) 02:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)