User talk:Limetom/2011/August

Translation help needed
Hey, I saw you mentioned at Translators_available. Translation help needed for the articles Rus' people, Rus (name), Kievan Rus', Rus' Khaganate, and probably also Varangians and Annales Bertiniani.

Original Latin source: (starting with "Venerunt etiam legati Graecorum a Theophilo imperatore directi, Theodosius videlicet, Calcedonensis metropolitanus episcopus, et Theophanius spatharius, ferentes cum donis imperatore dignis epistolam quos imperator quinto decimo Kalendas Iunii in Ingulenheim honorifice suscepit" on that page, and continuing AFAIK for two more pages).

The Latin source I need help on is the Annales Bertiniani, which is a collection of Frankish annals that was completed in 882 AD. The issue behind this is the historical first mention of the Rus' people, which was a Norse tribe, also known as the Varangians from Sweden that, starting in the 9th century from Novgorod and Kiev (Kievan Rus') and allegedly under the leadership of their chieftain Rurik (or rather RøRikR in Old Norse) conquered portions of the Baltics and today's northwestern Russia, a realm which was soon known as the Rus' Khaganate (with the result that lots of placenames, such as Novgorod, actually have an Old Norse etymology). Eventually, the Rus' Khaganate, even though the Norse ruling elite was but small and soon assimilated to the Balto-Slavic population, became the nucleus and namegiver for modern Russia.

The thing is, this so-called Normannic theory is still kinda controversial, as modern Russian scholars often regard it as a modern romantic nationalist myth originating with late-19th century Pan-Germanism. What the Russians are saying is that the original Rus were actually Slavs. Now, these 9th century Annales Bertiniani seem to be a rather authoritative, and, given their time of origination, pretty concise, source to refute these Russian scholars.

What I get of this Latin text is only the gist of it. Apparently, a delegation of Rus people were interrogated by Frankish Emperor Louis the Pious at Ingelheim am Rhein in 839 AD, where they said that:
 * the name of their tribe was Rus (spelled "Rhos" in this Latin text, maybe via Byzantine Greek translation? As far as I can tell, a letter from Byzantine Emperor Theophilos or Michael III is mentioned),
 * they originally came from Sweden
 * but had settled in what is northwestern Russia today (I find this information several times in modern sources, attributing it to the Annales Bertiniani, but *WHAT THE HECK* was their contemporary name for "northwestern Russia"?), and
 * that they had switched to calling their chieftains chacanus now.

Chacanus is Latin for Khagan, a title they had likely borrowed from contact with the Avars while conquering from the Baltic coast southward. It's why their realm in centuries to come was to be known as the Rus' Khaganate.

But what I need for good sourcing is an exact translation of portions relevant to the informations bulleted above. Original Latin text at (starting with "Venerunt etiam legati Graecorum a Theophilo imperatore directi, Theodosius videlicet, Calcedonensis metropolitanus episcopus, et Theophanius spatharius, ferentes cum donis imperatore dignis epistolam quos imperator quinto decimo Kalendas Iunii in Ingulenheim honorifice suscepit" on that page, and continuing AFAIK for two more pages). --79.193.34.87 (talk) 02:59, 29 August 2011 (UTC)