User talk:Linda Mancia

Proposed deletion of Ryla Sable
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Ryla Sable, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * No evidence of real-world significance of a fictional character as called for by WP:WAF.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. —Largo Plazo (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Daniel Justice
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Daniel Justice, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * No evidence of real-world significance of fictional character as called for by WAF.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. —Largo Plazo (talk) 02:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Veraline Andersen
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Veraline Andersen, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * No evidence of real-world significance of fictional character as called for by WAF.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. —Largo Plazo (talk) 02:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Explanation
Hi, I'm sure you're confused by the requests for the deletion of your articles. Wikipedia has a large number of policies and guidelines for the creation of articles, and one of the major criteria for articles is that they be about notable topics. Particular requirements hold for literature, and there's an article called WP:Writing about fiction which says, among other things, that articles about fictional characters must establish some notability that those characters possess in the context of the real world.

Surely it would be appropriate for there to be an article about Tyranta on Wikipedia before there would be articles on characters within the series. I don't know the series, and don't know if it would meet Wikipedia's criteria for articles on literature, but that might be something to consider first. —Largo Plazo (talk) 02:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, Linda Mancia, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines for page creation, and may soon be deleted (if it hasn't already).

There's a page about creating articles you may want to read called Your first article. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the New contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type   on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Where to ask a question or ask me on. Again, welcome! —Largo Plazo (talk) 02:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Your first article
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advice
As an administrator who frequently works on fictional topics, I looked up the series, and I can find no references at all in WorldCat, the union catalog of US libraries, for either  the author or the subject. Based on this, it would seem definitely not a notable book--and so can the characters not be notable either. Nor can I find any reference to Tyranta in Google. I can find references in google to a Role Playing Game  called "Tyrantia", and a Neopets location called Tyrannia; neither  has an article in Wikipedia, and from the descriptions on their web sites it se  there do not seem any   connection with the characters you describe. I suppose then it is a work that you and your friends are writing; if it actually is a published book or series, and by a regular reputable publisher, I'd like some information about it--please tell me on my user page here. But, as Largoplazo says, there are many other things to do here. Consider some of the possibilities at WP:CTW  DGG (talk) 10:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

'Tyranta' is a term used to describe what can be called the main antagonist, Empress Nephilia Liberty, a cruel and brutal woman who nearly succeeded in conquering the world of Allerium. As a female Tyrant, that would make her a Tyranta. It has nothing to do with video game characters! I'm not sayong this because I wrote the book, I'm saying this because if you've ever read the Tyranta series it's obvious. As Cheryl Grant's editor, I have read the Tyranta books, though not all of them.

I have answered further questions on your tp. Read it. Linda Mancia (talk) 04:45, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

ISBN numbers
Regarding the books that various Wikipedia editors, including myself, can't seem to find: Do you have publication data for these books, including ISBN numbers and Library of Congress or other national-library-catalog information? At the very least, the name of the publisher, the city listed on the book's copyright page, and the copyright date would be a good start. This would help those of us with access to other resources to track down the books and research the notability of the book, it's author, and its characters.

By the way, in response to your comments to Largoplazo, Marguerite d'Angouleme was queen consort to a high-ranking French nobleman. This alone means she'll be referenced in many books and other publications, which satisfies Wikipedia's notability criteria for real people. Likewise Mary of Burgundy was a European noble who was not only in a 1910 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica, she was also the subject of at least one biography, thereby easily meeting Wikipedia's notability criteria for real people. In general, real nobles from famous noble families, especially those who have not been forgotten by history, are presumed to be notable until someone claims they aren't. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  01:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability of Davis Sable
Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Davis Sable, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Davis Sable seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable. To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Davis Sable, please affix the template to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that '''this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here''' CSDWarnBot (talk) 05:10, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

December 2008
Please refrain from introducing inappropriate pages to Wikipedia. Doing so is not in accordance with our policies. For more information about creating articles, you may want to read Your first article. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. —Largo Plazo (talk) 05:43, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Consider starting off in user space
To avoid speedy deletion, consider drafting articles in user space then asking the handful of people who have been following the Tyranta situation to review them and give you an honest answer if they would survive AFD, if they wouldn't survive AFD unless the articles were improved, or if the subject matter simply is not notable enough to survive AFD. If it's the latter, I recommend giving up on that article. If it's the middle one, let us work with you to improve it. If it's ready, then you can move it to the main encyclopedia.

To create a draft article in "user space" create User:Linda Mancia/Your article name here. Please read WP:MOVE and WP:USERFY for additional information. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  14:39, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

what to do first
In response to your qy. on my user talk, I can still not identify any books by Cheryl Grant listed in WorldCat, in the Library of Congress, or even in Amazon. You say some of them were published by Avon & Harper Collins--in which case they should be findable. Possibly there is some confusion about the exact form of the author's name. Do you have a copy of any--there should be an ISBN 10 or 14 digit number on it, usually on the front or back cover or the front or back of the title page. Let me know. As for the articles, there is no possible  way that articles on the characters can possibly be suitable for an encyclopedia unless the books or the author is notable. The first article to try is one on the author. Do it if you can find 3rd party independent reliable published sources, print or online (but not blogs or press releases) that review or discuss the books, and if you can identify what books they are, with date and publisher. If they have gotten any significant public notice, there is a chance that there might be an article. If you can find no published references for her, then there is not any chance at all, for this is an encyclopedia and the people and books in it must already be notable. DGG (talk) 17:06, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any confusion on Cheryl's name. I really don't. Seeing as I am have been Cheryl's editor since she first started writing for Harper Collins (over a decade ago) I wouldn't confuse her name. She sometimes writes under the name of Melanie Hersher, so the books may be listed under that name. There are a few things about her on our site, in the books, and on another site if that helps. But these books are in existance and deserve some recognition from the world. I can send you a copy of one of the books if you give me your address (that might've sounded a little awkward), though it is more of a women's book. Sincerely- Linda Mancia (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Articles on Wikipedia aren't judged on whether they deserve to be noted but on whether they have already achieved note. Sending the book to one person or another will be of no consequence because verifiability, no less than notability, needs to be supported by references in the article. As for a Melanie Hersher, no such author is listed either on amazon.com or in the U.S. Library of Congress catalog, no more than is a Cheryl Grant. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:55, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * When you say you have bee her editor, do you mean that you work for Harper-Collins? DGG (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

To DGG: I guess that means I am. Are you going to take me up on the offer? To Largoplazo: It's great that you're so interested in the verification of Tyranta. Really, really, awesome. Linda Mancia (talk) 02:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, If you work for H-C you know about ISBNs. Now give us the ISBNs of these books, the year of publication, and the exact titles. . If you cannot, the obvious conclusion is that this is unpublished material, and that you are not being altogether frank about it. In which case i give you a formal warning that this can be seen as vandalism, and any attempt to continue the game will be dealt with by blocking your account and summarily deleting the articles DGG (talk) 03:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Just pointing this out, any idea about how much of a Mafia member you sound, DGG. You want the ISBN numbers? If I don't give them to you, are you going to fit me with some cement galoshes? Row me out to the middle of Lake Tahoe? Plant some explosives in my car? In the Wikiworld, you are threatening me with murder, i.e. being blocked. Personally, I don't care about being blocked as Ann or Gillian can take over with the issue. Cheryl might even get involved. I haven't spoken to her since late November but the next time I see her I will bring it up. So block me, and see what problems that solves. If you read some things Ann said about Largoplazo, then you will understand I'm relatively mild. She also doesn't know as much as me about the series, so you'll have a hard time squeezing info out of her.

If you think wou'll succeed in procuring the ISBN numbers in this way, you are so wrong. I've dropped some hints, Gillian told you publication dates. Send her a message if you don't believe me. These ISBN numbers are 10 digit numbers, except for the last one, the Armageddon, published 2008. Look at everything I've posted, it includes everything but the ISBN numbers.

It appears that you are more the one who wants to keep this game going. You wouldn't be here bugging me if not. If you want to verify the series existance using ISBN numbers it wouldn't kill you to be slightly kinder instead of sounding like Tony Soprano. "Now give us...". You are talking to a human, not an animal.

With love, 96.234.74.219 (talk) 05:36, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm curious: when you call a customer service number for a problem and you are unhappy with the resolution, do you get Ann Rice and Gillian Reed and Cheryl Grant on the phone to tag-team for you? Are you under the impression that these people scare anyone here or that they possess special powers to prevent non-conforming articles from being deleted? I ask these questions because I'm trying very hard to understand your truly unusual approach and why you expect it to result in your desired outcome. (Speaking of Gillian, I'm surprised that you're invoking her. Did you not notice that she apologized for your behavior, as well as for Ann's?) —Largo Plazo (talk) 06:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

We are trying to HELP you but we need YOUR help
I and several others have gone out of our way to find evidence of notability, but our resources are limited to tools such as web- and major-online-bookstore search engines. Once we have publication information, we can use resources like our local library, inter-library loan, and other sources to further research the material.

Please help us help you by providing the publication information needed to research these books, their author, and their content and determine if they qualify for inclusion under Notability (book) or other notability guidelines. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  18:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for writing this and taking a calmer outlook on the situation. It brings the focus more on the real purpose. So you asked for info?

Tyranta and The Rising Empire published 1993

Tyranta and The Son of the King published 1994

Tyranta and The Crossing of the Desert published 1997

Tyranta and The Council published 1999

Tyranta and The Alliance published 2001

Tyranta and The Truths published 2003

Tyranta and The Spider Queen published 2005

Tyranta and The Armageddon published 2008

I'll let you know about the ISBNs later. I'm kinda tired now, having stayed up till one for the past 3 days, and I don't feel particularly up to checking the books. I don't have Tyranta books in my house, but I can check the files on my computer.


 * I will need the ISBNs. I searched www.Google.com and Amazon.com for each of those titles and got nothing save for now-deleted Wikipedia articles and mirrors at places like answers.com.  I'll try again when I get the ISBNs.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  16:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Is it possible these were self-published, published in a subsidy press, or otherwise published in a low print run with little or no publicity? Unless they were self-published, the last two should have ISBNs which should pop in a search somewhere, even if it's just at my local bookstore.  In any case, lack of independent 3rd party references is almost certainly an indicator of lack of wiki-notability.  "Dead tree" or other offline reliable references such as reviews in major newspapers are acceptable.  I have not searched Google's newspaper archives for these titles.  By the way, even the best books may not meet Wikipedia notability requirements if nobody has written about them in a reliable source. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  16:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

They should have those titles in Google, but our website is down. The site that Ann Rice has, as well as being a source, has links to other sources that are third-party sources. Websites written by other people do qualify as a third party source, and while these may not be huge titans on the web they are reliable. So ask Ann to hurry up if you want some hard info. As for the ISBNs, I'll get to those later. Point: Can't I send someone a book for verification? It wouldn't be troublesome. With love, Linda Mancia (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You can scan the copyright and title pages of as many books as you have and email them to me. To set up Wikipedia email, go to "My Preferences" and check "Enable e-mail from other users."  Then go to User talk:Davidwr and click on "Email this user" on the left side of the screen.  I will reply and you will then have my email address.  You can then email me scans.  If published in the United States, the copyright page will have Library of Congress info and might have ISBN numbers.  If they aren't there I'll still need ISBNs to properly research the book.  Even with your web site down, the other web sites that are linked from it or which link to it should be in Google.  If they mention these books, and don't tell Google to restrict its search results using robots.txt or something similar, I should have found something.  By the way, please read WP:Notability (books) - many books, including some good books, fail this criteria because the only 3rd-party publications aren't really 3rd-party after all, they are essentially reprints or summaries of information provided by the publisher or author, or none of the 3rd-party sources serve a general audience, or the ones that do are not considered reliable sources.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  03:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

HarperCollins and Avon author and title search results
I tried to locate Cheryl Grant at the HarperCollins website. There are no Hershers, and none of the six authors having the last name Grant is a Cheryl.

Next I went to the Avon Books site, which is part of the HarperCollins site. I checked under Avon Authors and found no author named Hersher, and while there is a Tracy Grant there's no Cheryl Grant.

I also searched in both placed for titles with "Tyranta" in them and came up empty. —Largo Plazo (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What's that supposed to mean? I'm no administrator for the site, I have no control over it. But Cheryl was an author for both those companies. -Linda Mancia (talk) 12:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't ask you if you controlled the site or were an administrator for it, so I don't understand the point of your response. I am documenting for all interested parties the pertinent information that the website of a publisher for whom you claim Cheryl Grant is an author and which you claim to have published a series of her books lists neither that author nor those books, and that neither does the Library of Congress.


 * In four weeks, you have yet to provide the minutest trace of evidence to support your claims, while none of the evidence that would normally be readily available to verify the existence of any book published by a major publisher in the United States&#8212;an acknowledgment of its existence by its publisher in its listing of all its current authors and books; a listing in the Library of Congress catalog&#8212;can be found. I am not looking to you for an explanation because I already have one. If you care to dispel my hypothesis, you are welcome to present an alternative for consideration, along with verifiable information that will support it, but in the absence of such an alternative I'm satisfied that mine is the most likely and the most reasonable given the observable facts. —Largo Plazo (talk) 14:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Interim conclusions regarding the notability of Tyrantia-related book topics
Based on the research my myself and others, I've come to conclude that one or more of the following is true:
 * There has been a clerical error, and each of us doing the search are searching for the wrong thing. This is very unlikely unless we've been told the wrong thing to search for.
 * There is something unique and special that is preventing searches from succeeding completely. This is exceedingly unlikely.
 * The books are so lacking in notability that they not only fail to show up in reliable, non-primary sources like book reviews, they don't show up in book searches like Google or Amazon that include very obscure titles, including virtually every book with an ISBN number published in the 21st century. This is by far the most plausible explanation.  I would go so far as to say absent evidence to the contrary it's the only reasonable conclusion.  The people who have access to these books and enjoy them should consider themselves privileged.  If this author does become notable or famous, those early editions will become collectors' items.

Therefore, my recommendation is that we, as editors, wait for evidence of notability before allowing any related page to appear in the main article space, and that those who wish to put up any related articles focus their energies on proving that the books are indeed notable or the author is notable as an author before they invest time and energy in drafting replacement articles.

My offer to look for sources of notability is still open, I just need some basic information, including the ISBN number, publisher, and if possible, a copy of the copyright page. I'm not optimistic though. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  17:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP
WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as articles. Please don't put false information on talk pages, such as you did regarding Arabs in Obama's ancestry. And by the way, Obama does not have the name Muhammad. That was a rumor started by the fear-mongers trying to scare everyone into believing that Obama was ... (oh no!!!) ... a MUSLIM. Ward3001 (talk) 00:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I did NOT put ANY "false info" on the talk page. You have as much proof about Barack's daddy being completely African as I do about him being 75% Arab. For all YOU know, Barack's paternal great-grandparents could be Satan, Lilith, King Solomon, and the Queen of Sheba..... but wait! That would make Barack's dad 75% Palestinian (aka Arab) and 25% African again.

Even if I did grant you that Barack does not have the name Muhammad, you still have to clear up the Arab presense in the names Barack and Hussein, as well as the whole Messiah thing.

No one is fearing that Barack is a Muslim. They fear Barack is the Antichrist.


 * Give me one source, one source that says he has Arab ancestry. And give me one source, one source that his name is Muhammad. I'm waiting, but I'm not holding my breath. Continue to violate WP:BLP and you will be blocked. End of discussion. Ward3001 (talk) 01:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't think so. The source is his birth records, which suspiciously have not been released yet. Give me a source that says his dad is 100% African.
 * Just keep your unsourced POV (I could describe it much worse) away from the article and talk page and things will be fine. Keep up your BLP violations and you most certainly are headed for a block. Now, I don't care to waste my time endlessly arguing with you over outrageous ideas, so this is my last message unless you decide to continue policy violations. Continue your rants here all you want, but I'm finished with this absurd argument. Have a good day. Ward3001 (talk) 01:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Warning
Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living persons. Ward3001 (talk) 01:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed is on article probation. --  Grsz  11  01:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI
While the name "Barack" is from the Arabic language, that doesn't mean it's not African. There are plenty of people in Africa named Barack or Baraka; Arabic is widely spoken in Africa, especially northern and eastern Africa.

I'm not interested in getting involved in the dispute (since it's pointless OR and is not going to change anything in the article anyway), I just wanted to let you know that. Politizer talk / contribs 05:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The sources of the president's name (his grandfather converted to Islam, took the name Hussein, and named the president's father Barack) are solidly established facts, so there is no basis for controversy. Besides that, why would this arouse any more suspicion than non-Jewish people named David or Michael or Sarah or Debra? —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

AN/I notice
Hello,. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 10:06, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It appears you found the thread. However, I've reverted your edit to the archived discussion. If you want to discuss things please either create a new thread at WP:ANI or contact the people who you're addressing directly. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 09:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Shmi Skywalker
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic, but a regurgitation of plot summary is insufficient to sustain an article. I have restored the redirect; please read WP:WAF and WP:RS before expanding/restoring topics on elements of fiction. --EEMIV (talk) 01:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * try to find one--just one-- reference to a discussion of her and I will restore the article. Avery good argument could be made that she is crucial to the plot, but see if someone has actually made it. There's a good deal of published material. DGG (talk) 05:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)