User talk:Liveste/Archive 5

New WikiProject Novels initiative
We have begun a new initiative at the WikiProject Novels: an improvement drive. As a member listed here, you are being notified. Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels and WikiProject Novels/Collaboration for more details. Also I would like to remind you to keep an eye on the project talk page at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels. Thanks, Sadads (talk) 02:07, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

February 2011 Wikification Drive
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of Wikiproject Wikify at 00:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC).

WikiProject Wikify's Coordinator Election
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 22:24, 23 January 2011 (UTC).

The Wikifier, WikiProject Wikify's First Newsletter (January 2011)
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 02:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC).

Autopatrolled
Hello, this is just to let you know that I have granted you the "autopatrolled" permission. This won't affect your editing, it just automatically marks any page you create as patrolled, benefiting new page patrollers. Please remember:
 * This permission does not give you any special status or authority
 * Submission of inappropriate material may lead to its removal
 * You may wish to display the Autopatrolled top icon and/or the User wikipedia/autopatrolled userbox on your user page
 * If, for any reason, you decide you do not want the permission, let me know and I can remove it
 * If you have any questions about the permission, don't hesitate to ask. Otherwise, happy editing! Acalamari 18:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The February 2011 Wikification Backlog Elimination Drive has begun!
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 00:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC).

WikiProject Novels Collaboration for February
Thank you everyone who participated in the January Collaboration, it was quite a success with 5 new C class articles, 3 stub kills and several articles were removed from our backlogs. In support of the Great Backlog Drive, the WikiProject Novels Collaboration for February is going to help remove backlog candidates in the backlogs related to WikiProject Novels. Please join us, and help us wikify, reference, clean up plot sections and generally improve Novels content, Sadads (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

You are recieving this message because you are a member of WikiProject Novels according to WikiProject Novels/Members

The February 2011 Wikification Backlog Elimination Drive Needs Your Help!
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 04:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC).

Thanks for the help
I just wanted to thank you for the help on the netball article. This is my first time really editing a Wikipedia article and I'm not all that knowledgeable about netball... and thus, your edits are very much appreciated. :) --LauraHale (talk) 12:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

While I'm thanking you for the help, if you know any New Zealand netball clubs... I'm trying to set up some sport wiki academies in New Zealand. :) Any help trying to find some netball clubs who might want to learn about wikis (or social media) would be very much appreciated. :) --LauraHale (talk) 12:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the headings
Some one else suggested I do that. :( They said it was eating the space on the TOC and it should be fixed.  So I did. :(  Not very familiar with the Style guide. :( --LauraHale (talk) 11:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Wikify's March Mini Drive
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 04:05, 9 March 2011 (UTC).

All England Netball Association
Hopefully this isn't viewed as a copy-vio but I thought I would share the text from the All England Netball Association book that is quoted on the netball article in the history section. (I've been trusting this source because I figured they were possibly more credible as they may have had access to primary source documents that others did not have.) This is all from page 13

Early Beginnings

1891: Game invented in USA by YMCA Secretary, where it was then, and is now, called Basket Ball.

1895: Visit of Dr. Toles, an American, to Madame Osterberg's P.T. College (then at Hampstead). Students were taught Basketb Ball - indores - no printed rules - no lines, circles or boundaries. The goals were two waste paper baskets hung up on walls at each end of the hall.

1897: Game played out of doors on grass. An American lady paid a visit to the College (moved to Dartford), and taught the game as then played by women in America. The students at Dartford introduced rings instead of baskets, the larger ball and the division of the ground into three courts.

1900-1: The newly formed Ling Association (now the Physical Education Association) set up a sub-committee to revise and publish the first set of rules. 250 copies were published and many changes were adopted.

End quoting.

This source also talks a bit about the history but I'm not sure of their sourcing. Hopefully these two sources can help you with any improvements in that section. :) I can paste this to the talk page on Netball if you think it should also be there. --LauraHale (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The whole thing was confusing for me too. It was one of the reasons I asked Hawkeye7 to try to fix the wording because I was just stumped. I put that source next to him and another one (the Gilbert netball book) and asked him to try to make that coherent. It might be worth it to say try to rewrite the whole section on the history of netball section to get the big picture and then try to summarise it down from there? --LauraHale (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if this is helpful but from the same book on page 46:

Jane Blunt, who has visited the columns of Netball over the last quarter century, picks out a few only of the multitudinous changes in The Rules of the Game with comments of the day. She has listened to nostalgic memories and shares them with present day players.

1890's: Long before the AENA came into being, a game was played "indoors without printed rules or boundaries", "outdoors on grass and with waste paper baskets tied to clothes line props"; a court (100 ft. by 50 ft. with a flag at each corner) was divided into three sections. There were nine players in each team.

End quote.

Page 4:

It was not until the end of the 19th Century and the opening years of this century that public opinion became aware of the serious neglect not only of the well being of children in State schools but of the health, welfare and recreational needs of young people in offices, shops and industry.

Many voluntary associations for years had been doing their best to meet the problems. Children's Happy Evenings, Mrs. Humphrey Ward Play Centres, Guild of Play, the Boys' and Girls' Brigades, University Settlements, all took an active interest in fostering centres of recreation. The various school sports associations arranged matches for the more gifted children. But for the masses there was little opportunity for organised recreation.

Secondary schools were more fortunate. As soon as the qualified teach of PE and Games came on the scene at the turn of the century and physical education and games became a regular feature of the curriculum in the secondary schools, netball was played and developed very largely in London and other large industrial areas in the Midlands and the North to suit playground conditions and open space available. The rules and regulations of the game were laid down by the Ling Association (founded 1899), a body of expert gymnastic teachers. The game soon became highly skilled and a strong association formed throughout the country in these more privileged schools.

En quote. Those are pretty much the pre-1900s references. Hopefully that is useful. --LauraHale (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * This was largely due to the efforts of Martina Bergman-Österberg, who with her students pioneered the physical education teaching profession in the UK (which women initally dominated). The spread of netball during the early 20th century in the UK and throughout the British Empire was due largely to the movement of her students, some of whom formed the Ling Association. Interesting stuff. – Liveste (talk • edits) 00:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. :) Based on what I've been reading, I think the English were probably the dominant forces in spreading the game until probably the 1960s. At that point, New Zealand and Australia probably helped spread the game in Oceania.  I would think that Caribbean players helped promote the games more on those island nations where the game wasn't as popular and in the United States.  South Africa appears to be helping export the game to countries the general Southern African region.    Seeing these trends is one of the reasons why I felt so vocal in the need to keep the sections by nation to understand how the game spread and how patterns differed with male and female administering of the game and the level of professionalism in the country, participations rates where available and what segments of the population were playing. --LauraHale (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Netball good article
Hey. I wanted to thank you for the massive help on the good article process for the netball article. Things just got weirdly out of control. I know we don't fully agree on how information should be presented but I do think we've done a really, really good job at overall improving the article to what it was before. The second reviewer apparently has a history of problems with good article reviews. I'm not entirely certain how to resolve our differences regarding American women's basketball and English netball. :/ I think we both agree that the sport has roots in basketball. The question is the how much of an influence did American women have on what the English were doing and what of the shared history should be in there. (I'm inclined for less and seeing it put over on the history of netball article... but that's more because I can't find netball sources that support a connection, that cite the Ling Association being inspired by it, nor sources that support Australians and New Zealanders being inspired by the American women's game.) In any case, while we disagree, I don't hold any ill will or feel anything but real appreciation for the support you've given on trying to improve the article. Hopefully, we can fix things and try to get it improved.

On a back to the basketball issue, do you think it would be worth getting additional sources cited, talking it over on the history of netball, trying to improve the summary of the game's early development on that article? And after that's done, taking what would basically be a well cited lead and putting that into the netball article? I can probably find some sources for changes in tactics and some of the rules. (The All England Netball Association has details regarding that.) Doing it that way might make it easier. (And if the history section becomes too long, it shouldn't be an issue as length isn't supposed to be a good article criteria.) --LauraHale (talk) 05:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The good article process shouldn't take that long. I asked several people about the process so I could make sure I knew what I was getting myself into.  The guidelines suggest a week.  I had people tell me that this experience was worse than many FACs they had been part of.  Racepacket had been indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia before.  A few people are apparently trying to get him blocked again.  Their complaints are much the same as mine have been, with issues about wanting things included that make no sense, trying to insert factually incorrect information in the article, not adhering to the Manual of Style, etc.


 * I should have removed the nomination earlier. There were some bits in there that just leave going WTF?  The Olympic section has become a bit of a train wreck of wording.  The British Council section should be integrated back in along side Olympic funding.  The whole Olympic sections feels a bit disjointed if you want to take a crack at improving it.  (Hawkeye7 added some information to GA1 that might be citable.  He may also have put it into the article because I recall my last reading thought it sounded like an angry person made this edits to appease another person.)  I found some book related citations that may be useful and I can share that on the talk page for netball.


 * The history part is kind of really interesting. I was thinking it might make an interesting academic article to explore the parallels between the growth of basketball for American women and the growth of netball for the English.  And beyond that, look to see if contemporary sources are citing women's basketball in the USA as the origins of the game.  (As opposed to Naismith's game.)  I've tried to provide sourcing to help explain my point of view and to help you as you appear to be the major contributor to the history article. It just isn't my area.  (I've learned a huge amount about netball from editing the article but still not that knowledgeable.)


 * If you're in Auckland, Dunedin or Wellington, let me know as I'll be in New Zealand from April 5 until probably Easter time. I'd be happy to pay for coffee. :) --LauraHale (talk) 08:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

More commenting. (I don't shut up. I take 5 sentences to say what normally takes 1.)  I just wanted to let you know that after examining and thinking critically about some one's edits, I'm feeling a bit... put out and just a little bit stupid. (Hence Wikipedia editing at this time of night.) This is something that I put into another article and I might like your opinion on it as it may require us to make fixes to the netball article:


 * 1) NPOV violations.  Racepacket reviewed both Netball and Netball in the Cook Islands with the clear intention of pushing a point of view that the sport was not popular in general, and specifically was not popular in the Cook Islands.  This can be seen by his repeated claims of wanting more information on the popularity of the game, by his insistence in saying "X amount of countries of the Y amount of countries in Africa are affiliated with the regional federation."  He wanted similar statements in every region.  He wanted the total percentage of players as a representation of the country's total population.  He wanted to know how many teams competed and to let people know that they were ranked X out of Y, to make the game appear less popular.  He wanted to irresponsibly gender the article to highlight the fact that the game is played by women, and is thus less popular and less credible.  He wanted to remove the country sections and information on statistics that showed relative popularity by country.  He tried to get phrases like "most popular women's participation sport" in the country removed because they were biased, even if there were citations that supported this claim.  He wanted to remove the Olympic sport part because by removing the Olympics, he makes the game appear less popular and credible as a sport.  He demanded its removal even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  He tried to diminish the importance of international competitions by treating international federations, similar to CONCACAF and CONMEBOL for FIFA into regional leagues that countries in the area compete in.

End quote. If we inserted stuff to make netball appear less popular than it actually is, then I'm a bit worried. :/ It would also go a long way towards explaining some of the issues that we've dealt with... and I don't know how to clean this up. :( --LauraHale (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly am surprised that LauraHale felt that way, particularly because she never expressed those concerns to me directly. A free exchange of ideas is much better that hostility or a passive-aggressive stance toward ones collaborators on a project. Needless to say, those are not my views. I want neutrality, not a pro-Netball or anit-Neball bias. The subject matter experts should help determine how to achieve that objective. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 16:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Netball
I understand that User:LauraHale wishes to withdraw, but I hope that you and the other editors could continue so that we can wrap this up and not have to start from scratch next time. I have placed the article back on hold because only the review can "fail" the article. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

If you are willing to work on the change to the history section and the dozen or so other items, please let me know. Racepacket (talk) 21:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Please review Tennis New Zealand
Hello Liveste, I created this article Tennis New Zealand and I would appreciate any feedback. If you have any time, could you take a look at it. I was thinking as you are one of the senior members of WP NZ, you would be able to guide me to improve this article. And, of course, you are free to edit the article directly, thanks in advance. undefinedBill william compton Talk   14:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sheesh, when did I become a senior member of anything? Amazing how time flies :) . I've had a look at the article (thanks for writing it BTW) and made a few, mostly minor, changes. Overall, it's a better article than what you normally see for national sports governing bodies. I see that the article has been reassessed as C-class, which seems reasonable IMO. If you wanted to widen the scope of the article (per the talk page), you could include information on the number of registered players and coaches, competitions organised by TNZ, player development pathways (juniors, school comps, regional comps, elite players), coaching structures, etc. You can also have a look at other articles on tennis governing bodies and New Zealand national sports governing bodies for inspiration. Hope this helps. – Liveste (talk • edits) 21:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey Liveste, you're certainly a senior and skillful member of WP NZ. I really feel gratitude towards your active response. My motive behind expanding this article is to set an example for other articles of sports governing bodies. The problem with these types of articles is that there is very less amount of information available on web, so you've to research a lot. I'm also pleased by recommendations made by you, well there is nothing to look at other articles on tennis governing bodies as most of them are made/standardized by me only, WP Tennis doesn't care for such articles (I'm the only active member, who is working on them), may WP Tennis could have members like you. But I again appreciate your efforts as other member, whom I asked first didn't even reply when I asked him/er for reviewing this article. I'll work on your guidelines. Thanks again for prompt reply.   undefinedBill william compton  Talk   03:54, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Netball FAC
Babbling: It might be jumping the gun a little bit. I talked about it with about four people to see if they thought it was a good idea. They said it might be a bit of a slog to get it through but that ultimately, they all thought it would pass. Netball in the Cook Islands has been looking for a peer review for a few days now and I honestly can't see it getting one. The project person most responsible for doing that peer review would be you. (I believe we're the only two real active members of the Netball project.) And as we're both major contributors, we don't have many places to get that sort of feedback. If it fails the first time (and there are reasons it might, including what could be perceived as a lack of stability and the drama involving Racepacket), at least we'll have a good idea of what needs to be addressed. It doesn't particularly bother me. I was also worried that we might get hit with a GAR in response to the article passing GA. It should have passed that rather easily. My original intention was to get it past GA and then do major improvements but we've basically done a lot of that already. And your timeline is consistent with my timeline. I want to get it to featured article status so it can be on the main page. Concluding: Any and all help is appreciated. If there is something you want me to address in an area, let me know. (I'm trying to improve International Federation of Netball Associations at the moment as it feels like to me if it can be content improved, it should help with an arguement against merging by demonstrating that the article has nothing to do with Netball in the Olympics. --LauraHale (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Just an update: Netball didn't get past its first attempt at FAC, but that is pretty much what I expected. What we do have now are a set of useful feedback with clear suggestions for improvement so we might get netball there one day.  The earliest the article could be resubmitted is in two weeks.  I'm not in a particular hurry as I'm leaving soon for a trip and may not be online as much.  After two weeks, if we get to the stage where we've fixed things and I'm not as active as much, drop a comment on my talk page and we can figure out how we could go about co-nominating it.  (I think at the moment, I am the only one who can nominate but you could put it forward as a co-nomination with my support.)  We can't edit the closed FAC to mark off having corrected the issues that were brought up.  If you want to copy and paste that to the netball talk page so we can work through those, that is one idea.  Or you or I could put it on one of our user subpages and just remove items from the list as we address them.  All in all though, I feel good about the FAC process and having a clear picture about moving this forward.  I wanted to thank you again for your support with improving the article. --LauraHale (talk) 00:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The GAN we went through is not normal. I've been repeatedly reassured this. Again and again and again.  With the caveat of please don't give up on it. (Also the caveat of what we went through is worse than a normal FAC.) A normal GAN, from what I've been told, involves probably the equivalent of one of the FAC people did.  You check against the criteria for obvious problems.  It shouldn't take you more than an hour to write up the review.  If there are substantial problems (like a complete absence of citations), you can quick fail it but you should provide detailed explanation so they can fix it to move forward.


 * One thought for the global section: Create daughter articles for each region that IFNA has: Netball in the Americas, Netball in Asia, Netball in Europe, Netball in Oceania and Netball in Africa. If we structure it that way, then the leads for those sections can be cited and put back in Netball.  The added advantage to this is it might encourage the improvement of the netball by country articles and feed down the line for other articles.  Plus, we can make it a netball project goal to get say all the region articles to good status at some point in the future.  But yeah, as an interim solution, creating daughter articles for each region seems like a good idea to me.  Once written and stubbed out, leads can be created and put back into the main article if that sounds okay with you?  (Copying and pasting this to Talk:Netball and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Netball.) --LauraHale (talk) 03:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Your plans sound really ambitious in terms of learning this stuff. Good luck and if you need help, let me know. It was a really interesting learning experience for the whole process of trying to get netball to FAC.  (And we'll still get there.) --LauraHale (talk) 03:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm kind of at the point myself where I don't know if I can substantially whittle that information down to any great degree to accurately summarise it for daughter articles by section but I'd be happy to create and put them in the right project pages. I've also done some work elsewhere with the idea of possibly taking the netball by country articles and moving them to wikibooks. Beyond that, lead writing isn't my particular forte.  If you're good with it, awesome. :)  The main -> region -> country framework provides a nice method for moving things up and down.


 * Do you think the netball article would fall under the scope of New Zealand's assessment? Do they have an A class assessment process that we could possibly send the article through before trying for FAC again? --LauraHale (talk) 05:44, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

RE: Mikhail Suslov
Are you reviewing this page? --TIAYN (talk) 14:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, finished. --TIAYN (talk) 12:42, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Finished... I must say, you are a gifted reviewer. Not many reviewers would actually bother to check out most of the references. What I'm saying is this; you may have used a long time, but since you've done such a good job, I hope you'll review some of my other GAs one day. Back to the point, I'm finished. --TIAYN (talk) 15:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Feedback left on my talk page
Could you possibly help address the feedback about the objective of netball left on my talk page? I'm not familiar enough with the mechanics of the game to be able to do that adequately myself. --LauraHale (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

ANZ Championship video
Do you know their copyright policy regarding any video taken on your phone at the game? I assume I have the copyright to any video I took? I've got probably 30 seconds total of tonight's game of the Tactix versus the Mystics. If there doesn't appear to be a copyright issue and you think it might be useful, would be happy to upload it. (Though that might take a while as I'd need to figure out how to convert it to ogg.) --LauraHale (talk) 09:46, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I'll wait until I have more bandwidth to play with the video. Otherwise, I upload a few images to commons:Category:Netball in New Zealand. They aren't particularly great but you might find them useful (or might be able to crop? for any player pages? though that seems iffy as the quality isn't great). --LauraHale (talk) 22:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Rules of netball
Hi. :) I've been poking at Rules of netball some tonight to fix a few minor citation issues. I've asked a couple of people on Wikipedia IRC channels if they thought the article was to GA status. They all pretty much suggested that the lead needs fixing.  Once the lead is fixed, it shouldn't have that many problems getting through.  I was wondering if you could help reword the lead.  (Or rather, rework Netball possibly.)  Once done, it can be submitted.  If we can get a good lead developed that gives a comprehensive idea of the rules, we can plug it back into Netball, which should make it easier the second time around in trying to get an FAC though on Netball. --LauraHale (talk) 08:42, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

The Wikifier: March 2011
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 01:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC).

June 2011 Wikification Drive
Sumsum2010 · T · C 04:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Wikify Discussion Invitation
 Sumsum2010 · T · C  23:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Rumour
Now, now Liveste, where is a copyright violation of that picture?

There are plenty of graphic enhanced/edited photos here on wikipedia!? Though it probably wasn't in the right context. . . USer:Alex0274.

October 2011 Wikification drive
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 16:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC).

WikiProject Wikify's October Newsletter
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 16:02, 3 October 2011 (UTC).

Article topic
Hi Liveste. I still haven't quite got the hang of using wikipedia. Can users suggest topics for articles? And would I have to write the article or could another user (as long as they have done some research and ensure that it is written from a neutral point of view) write the article? Guinevere1 16:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Guinevere1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guinevere1 (talk • contribs)

Regarding template Infobox_ANZC_team
As far as I can tell, Infobox_ANZC_team is the only team template that incorporates current sport-related. In my view, these "current" templates should be used rarely, and only on the infrequent occasions that many editors are attempting to change an article on the same day, and not incorporated into some other template. If some template needs some standard linking format, preferable, in my view, is to use some  kind of much more general template, such as  see also. I suggest this, so that if and when the article falls out of date, an implied currency is not failing on the article, merely a suggestion (the "see also") that may be less than compelling. In general, all of the "current" templates imply that there is astonishing news today only, which will be old news tomorrow, and almost all sports news fails on this standard.

I would like to suggest that you revise this particular team template to avoid the use of current sport-related.

Regards, Yellowdesk (talk) 01:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Re: Onepu
Kia Ora Liveste. Well, I actually live in Onepu, so I just took a picture outside of our house. Yes it is very tiny! Have a great day, Air55 (talk) 02:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

New MP pages
If you have time before Friday evening, your help with this politics task force collaboration would be much appreciated! If you have questions, please ask them there.  Schwede 66  07:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to the December Wikification Drive
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 01:28, 2 December 2011 (UTC).

Invitation: WikiWomenCamp
Hi. You do a lot of fantastic work with Wikipedia and improving women's sport related content. Given that, I wanted to personally invite you to attend WikiWomenCamp being held in Buenos Aires, Argentina in May 2012. This is a women's only conference, followed by a two day gender gap conference open to every one. Your experiences and knowledge base would be a great thing to add to the event. :) --LauraHale (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)