User talk:Loafysam

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Talkback
 PrincessofLlyr royal court 18:27, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Interview request
I would be glad to answer any questions you might have. You can post them here, on my talk, at the PJTF talkpage, or in a totally separate subpage. Best of luck with your project!  PrincessofLlyr royal court 19:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I greatly appreciate it! I've posted them below. Please feel free to answer them here or, if you prefer, we can do it by e-mail.--loafysam (talk) 20:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have e-mail enabled, so I'll just answer them here. I'm kind of busy, so I'll get to those later questions another time. It will be soon!  PrincessofLlyr royal court 22:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I really appreciate your answers below. I liked your description of Wikignome and think that's what I like to do here too so I grabbed a Wikignome box for my userpage:) Please answer the PJTF questions at your convenience. Best, --loafysam (talk) 23:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I can answer too.--ℳøℕø 00:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

General Questions:
How long have you been an editor at Wikipedia?
 * Since May 26, 2009, so about 11 months.

How did you get started? How did you learn the rules? Did you just jump straight into a discussion? Did you find it welcoming, or isolating at first?
 * My first edit was removing vandalism. (you can see the edit here) Learning the rules was gradual. I tried to read policies as I came across them. User:Airplaneman posted a welcome template with useful links on my talkpage, so I learned some that way. I'm still learning. At first, I did not have much interaction with other editors. My work was on unfrequented pages and very minimal. However, since becoming more active, I have found most users to be friendly and welcoming.

How would you describe yourself as an editor (or, if you prefer, what kinds of edits do you generally make?)
 * Wikignome. I tend to go for smaller, uncontroversial edits. I do maintenance, cleaning out the unassessed articles categories for various projects. I do some vandal-fighting.

What motivates or inspires you to write and edit for Wikipedia?
 * Hard to say. Expanding knowledge, helping the project, something to do. They all apply.

How many edits do you think you have made to date?
 * After this, it will be 4,664. (You can see here).

How many pages do you have on your watchlist? Does it ever change (do you take pages off your watchlist)?
 * There are currently 239 pages on my watchlist, including user talk, etc. It is continually fluctuating.

What WikiProjects/taskforces are you affiliated with?
 * Percy Jackson Task force, WikiProject Warriors, and WikiProject Novels.

What articles are you most proud of in terms of your contributions, and why?
 * That's hard. I tend to contribute gnomishly to many articles. I helped prepare The Titan's Curse for Good Article review. Helping a quality article is always neat. I've done some work on Gary Soto and am one of the main contributors to that page. In general, my contributions to the various projects and task forces listed above.

How would you characterize cooperation or working with others in Wikipedia?
 * It's very similar to real life, with the exception that here, you can walk away. There are many different viewpoints, temperaments, and ages. You try to work with people, and if you can't, work somewhere else. There is always something you can do. The rules for interacting with people are still the same. Be civil and assume good faith.

More Percy Jackson-specific questions:
How did the PJTF get started? What's your estimate on the number of active registered contributors to PJ articles?
 * I was not active at the time of creation, but it appears to have been requested by User:Pmlineditor and founded by User:Next-Genn-Gamer. Others may be able to give more detail. About active users, 2-3 very active, 2-5 semi-active, and lots of watchers that keep the pages clean from vandalism.

Can you describe a memorable moment in the creation or maintenance of any of the Percy Jackson pages? Or in the Talk/Discussion sections of those pages? (can be positive or negative)
 * One specific moment? Um, having The Titan's Curse passed as GA was really cool. We have dealt with an IP claiming to be Rick Riordan, which was something different for me. (the discussion can be found here)

In your opinion, has it been a difficult balance to maintain an encyclopedic tone when writing articles about a fictional character and plot summaries?
 * Yes. Definitely. It is difficult to maintain the balance of information, remember what the reader knows, and not use original research. It gets better with practice, but the best safeguard against that is multiple users editing the same text.

What are some of the challenges that PJTF/PJTO has faced?
 * Vandalism is always a challenge, as is fancruft. Also, it can be difficult to find reliable sources for reviews. A lot of the reviewing sites are subscription only, and of course, those links would be better than one from, say, Amazon. Also, there are a lot WP:CRYSTAL violations - new books, a movie sequel, etc.

Do you write fan fiction? If so, how is it different (more or less challenging than collaborating with others in Wikipedia?
 * No. However, with a guess, I would say a big difference is that writing on Wikipedia is governed by rules and must be backed up with reliable sources.

Thanks so so much!! --loafysam (talk) 20:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This might help some. Airplaneman   ✈  03:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It really does, thanks, Airplaneman! So interesting to hear the editors discuss how they came to the articles- because they were in dire need of attention. I've been looking at Summer of My German Soldier and it's a bit of a rambling plot disaster- I'm trying to figure out where to begin. Do you (or Princess of Llyr or other editors) have any suggestions?
 * Also, I wonder if you mind if I ask just a few more questions about the process of eliminating in-world writing or fancruft. How would you describe the process of eliminating in-world writing or fancruft? I guess another way of saying it is, what's your take on the difference between "in-world" contributions and fancruft-y ones, and how might one go about suggesting eliminating them (without getting editors who could be attached to their contributions upset)? Do you rely on new eyes for helping with those decisions? Appreciate your thoughtfulness --loafysam (talk) 05:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've actually had my eye on Summer of My German Soldier too. The plot is too play-by-play. That's the biggest problem, IMO. There are suggestions for improvement on the talk page.
 * About in-world and fancruft. Eliminating either is much the same. Think of an encyclopedic entry and what is absolutely necessary (that eliminates fancruft) and what the reader has no reason to know already (in-world). In-world contributions tend to use fictional creations, settings, or characters as real ones. Such "Percy Jackson's sword is made of celestial bronze." The reader may or may not have any reason to already know what celestial bronze is. We work around that with this: "a fictional metal which will injure immortals and monsters, but not wound mortals." Also, in-world would be an article that completely focuses on the plot and not any reception or such. Fancruft is excessive detail. This could be in plot summary, list of characteristics, etcetera. Some of those are good, but it can be too much. Getting rid of them, you don't have to suggest anything. No one owns the article. However, if there are other major contributors to an article, you may wish to bring up the question at the talk page. Citing policies, not your own opinion, is a good idea. Also, make exact suggestions for improvement, not general. If no one responds within a reasonable time (anywhere from several days to a few weeks), feel free to make the changes yourself. New eyes are always useful for spotting either of these problems. I hope this answers your questions fully. If you need any clarification, feel free to ask. (I'm still getting to the rest of the questions!)  PrincessofLlyr royal court 12:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You couldn't have said it better (difference between fancruft and in-world writing) :) --loafysam (talk) 20:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

In case this will help your project, I can tell you that, from guessing and discussions, virtually all of the members of the PJTF are middle/high school age. is a cool link about the demographics of Wikipedia editors. That paper sounds really interesting. I've done some research into the use of the Internet in education and I think it's definitely on the rise, even teachers using Wikipedia in class. Anyway, I hope your paper goes well and you stick around even with it done!  PrincessofLlyr royal court 19:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It does help, and thanks for asking me to stick around. I am sure I will have many more editing questions to ask in the future. If all goes well and I can leap over some theoretical hurdles, I would love to show you all a draft of the paper in some form or another, leaving it open to feedback & discussion like WP itself loafysam (talk) 05:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

General Questions:
How long have you been an editor at Wikipedia? I have been an editor since August 2009, however, I've only actively edited since about November. How did you get started? How did you learn the rules? Did you just jump straight into a discussion? Did you find it welcoming, or isolating at first? ''I originally came to try the pretty Beta interface and made some unconstructive edits here and there. Eventually, I discovered Airplaneman, who really helped me. How would you describe yourself as an editor (or, if you prefer, what kinds of edits do you generally make?) ''I would describe myself as a WikiDragon, however, I like to participate in a number of activities. Recently, I've been focusing on article building, AfD, discussion, and project revival due to time constraints. What motivates or inspires you to write and edit for Wikipedia? ''I like the sense of community that actually has a purpose. Instead of mindlessly dribbling nonsense (see the link), an editor is building (or destroying) something that will last a while.'' How many edits do you think you have made to date? I've made over 7,500 edits currently. How many pages do you have on your watchlist? Does it ever change (do you take pages off your watchlist)? ''Um… I don't like the watchlist a lot; I use it to monitor changes, especially in discussions. It gets so out of hand (half the articles on my list were articles I flagged for WP:CSD and were deleted) and I don't use it that often.'' What WikiProjects/taskforces are you affiliated with? ''WP:MAC (coordinator), WP:39 (coordinator), WP:GOOGLE (coordinator), WP:AFC and WP:IPHONE. What articles are you most proud of in terms of your contributions, and why? ''Doodle4Google, Conversation threading, The 39 Clues (in progress), iAd (recently), iPhone SDK (recently). I don't know why; maybe because I created them?''
 * Quick note: mono didn't create The 39 Clues; User:Slicedoranges did :) Airplaneman   ✈  01:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

How would you characterize cooperation or working with others in Wikipedia? Consensus, Civility, Calm, frequent breaks, Sarcasm, biting, ARBCOM.

More Percy Jackson-specific questions:
How did the PJTF get started? What's your estimate on the number of active registered contributors to PJ articles? ''3 active users, a lot of users joined thinking it was a fan club. :<( Some semi-active users, however, most WP:PJTF members don't do a lot. Can you describe a memorable moment in the creation or maintenance of any of the Percy Jackson pages? Or in the Talk/Discussion sections of those pages? (can be positive or negative)  I think the entire history of the page is interesting; I can't single out a moment.  Perhaps all the discussions were boring or really interesting? In your opinion, has it been a difficult balance to maintain an encyclopedic tone when writing articles about a fictional character and plot summaries? Not really.  I often look at other series and use my experiences with those articles to impact my writing. What are some of the challenges that PJTF/PJTO has faced? Vandalism and fancruft are the biggest issues for PJTF.  Anon or new users come and add unreferenced fancruft and speculation "I love the new movey!  george, watt do u think, yo?" which is really annoying. RV is only so useful after a army of readers add junk like play by play summaries. Do you write fan fiction? If so, how is it different (more or less challenging than collaborating with others in Wikipedia? ''Nope. Roughly, what's your age range- are you in school? (this I am curious about because I wonder what the demographics of Percy Jackson editors are- but if you are uncomfortable with my asking this, please let me know.) Woof!   m  o  n  o   00:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

More on interview
This will provide you with a lot of information about the PJTF. BTW, what class are you doing a report on Wikipedia for? I certainly haven't had a chance to do something like this. Airplaneman  ✈  22:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Airplaneman, it's for a graduate class called "Digital Geographies and Virtual Spaces". More specifically, I study uses of digital technology/computer-mediated communication in education. The fact that middle school/high school and even college classes aren't looking at the "behind-the-scenes" aspects of Wikipedia, and the kinds of interactions that go on to produce what people see as the finished "artifact", is troubling to me (many schools as you know ban Wikipedia outright as a reference, and won't even think about its potential in improving writing/editing skills, or in producing knowledge, etc.) My experience is that most educators have a very narrow view of Wikipedia that they pass onto their students, unless they make some valuable editorial contributions themselves to articles, do a bit of observing and probing of article histories and discussions, and/or have students engage in such a task ...Wikipedia is thus more often than not seen as an unstable and vitriolic place rather than a place where new forms of "informal" learning, often of the self-directed sort (or guided by others with similar interests), can take place. Hope that helps...if I was a teacher for any age or grade level, I would absolutely have students look at Wikipedia through a critical and particpatory lens. loafysam (talk) 17:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's cool :). Did you find the link helpful? I can try to answer more questions if you have any, Airplaneman   ✈  01:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The link was extremely helpful, but I would love it if you personally answered some more questions, since you're one of the most active members on the task force! If you don't mind me asking here, I'll just post a few of them below:

Gracias! loafysam (talk) 02:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What are some of the main reasons why you contribute to Wikipedia?
 * Hmm... well, let's see. I came here to look up Joe Sutter after reading his autobiography and found his article pitifully short (this is when I signed up; I had edited as an IP a few times). I wanted to help lengthen it, so I did, although not much (it's still short). I also wanted to create articles about things in hopes that people would learn something new. After getting two articles deleted, my interested waned, but I came back over the summer (of 2008), browsing aircraft articles and reading up on various other miscellany. I had discovered Wikipedia years before as a resource for information for the many questions I had (in real life, I ask endless questions, which is good I guess…) So after learning so much from Wikipedia, I wanted to give something back. After relying on Wikipedia for so long, I was interested in editing again, so I signed in once more in April 2009. I'm not sure what made me do it; I think it was to fix some errors in The City of Ember articles, the books which I had just read. After a few edits, I found out that editing was fun, so I went hunting for other errors. I was soon sucked into the Wikipedia world, discovering something new everyday. So yes, basically, to make a long story short, the number one reason why I edit is because it is fun. Number two, I learn (I like learning); I interact with people, researchers, vandals, new users, and other dedicated editors, all the while soaking up and contributing knowledge. Writing articles and doing research further educates me. Through this I learn. Other than that, it's just a hobby (the other being playing the violin, which I do for many of the same reasons). Airplaneman   ✈  20:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why are you so dedicated to your work in PJTF?
 * The answer is simple: I have a passion for PJ and I want to improve their articles. I guess I'm responsible for reviving the task force, but I'm probably not the most active contributor these days. I'm more into WikiProject Apple Inc. at the moment. Other than that, it's fun and fulfilling when an article is left better than I found it. Airplaneman   ✈  20:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * How would you describe your Wikipedia editing habits? By that I mean, do you work on editing various WP articles for about a half hour a day, or more? Do you have a dedicated amount of time that you edit, or do you space out your editing time throughout the day? How long do you typically spend editing PJ articles?
 * I edit when I feel like it and when I have some free time. I do not edit when I do not have free time. I don't treat it as a job, so my editing is all over the place. I let life dictate where I'm editing; for instance, if I see something in the news and it interests me, I look it up and fix up what I can. Other times, I let my interests (planes, books, and tech mostly) guide my editing. So I don't really dedicate time to edit and I don't plan how long I'm going to spend on an article. Usually to prevent logging out or edit conflicts, I don't make large edits longer than 20-30 minutes, instead saving incrementally. As for PJ articles, I'm focusing on cleaning up vandalism through my watchlist and slowly improving the overall quality of the articles within the scope of the projects. I probably spend about 5% of my editing time on PJ articles on any given day, although the percentage can be anywhere from zero to fifty. Airplaneman   ✈  20:51, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you ever experience "fatigue" from having to battle article vandals? What's been the most difficult or challenging experience you've had in working on this task force?
 * Haha, yes I do. When that happens, I just log off and do something else. If a vandal keeps being disruptive (like so) I revert and ignore and report them to WP:AIV for admin attention. The challenges can be found in the above linked interview for the Signpost. Airplaneman   ✈  20:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And here's a final interesting question I have for you: as I have been studying interactions of the PJTF, I am simply amazed by the vastness of PJTF articles and talk pages (aren't there 69 articles in the task force?), and how the PJTF editors coordinate work across all these pages. How do you do it? I feel like the logical place to coordinate certain kinds of work would be on the PJTF main page, but I feel like most editing suggestions and communication are article-specific and that gets discussed on individual article talk pages. There are so many places in the PJTF to post questions and suggestions and no real centralized place for it (except I guess on the main PJTF page)- so my question to you is, as an active editor who seems to be watching all of these pages, can you tell me how you're managing to watch all of these pages, edit, and contribute to discussions? It's impressive:)
 * I simply monitor my watchlist. I don't use this very often, but there is also a PJ-specific watchlist. Airplaneman   ✈  00:53, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. Do you like WP's new look/WYSIWYG editor?
 * It's not WYSIWYG; see below for more and my answer. Airplaneman   ✈  20:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * To elaborate: I like how it's more friendly to new users and gives editors more resources to work with, such as the cite templates, special characters, and help links. It is also laid out better. I'm actually using it most of the time now (switched to it full time today). Airplaneman   ✈  01:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK; I'll take some time to think them over so I can give you some thoughtful answers; do you have a deadline? Airplaneman   ✈  02:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your quick response! My deadline is this week- guilty of procrastination. I'm having writer's block for this paper, and had wanted to get cracking on it this weekend. If you could send me something by this Sunday, June 6, it would be amazing. Much obliged.loafysam (talk) 02:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: Wikipedia does not have a WYSIWYG editor; there is a new look, though.  m o  n  o   02:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * it might be a new look, agreed, but what about the layout of the edit area? The Wikimarkup area is at the bottom but the other non-WP format markup stuff is at the top with nice graphical buttons...loafysam (talk) 02:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I toggle WikiEd on and off to help (it gives extra buttons and color codes wikitext, among other things). I don't use the enhanced editing toolbar very often, but I also toggle that on and off depending on what I'm doing. I use the classic toolbar 95% of the time. I'll answer in full the questions above tomorrow. You can also email me. Airplaneman   ✈  03:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Airplaneman! Very thoughtful answers indeed. I especially like your statement about learning. loafysam (talk) 05:45, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

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