User talk:Lobsterthermidor/Archive 3

File source problem with File:SapcotesImpalingDinham BamptonChurchDevon.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:SapcotesImpalingDinham BamptonChurchDevon.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the page from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of the website's terms of use of its content. If the original copyright holder is a party unaffiliated with the website, that author should also be credited. Please add this information by editing the image description page.

If the necessary information is not added within the next days, the image will be deleted. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.

Please refer to the image use policy to learn what images you can or cannot upload on Wikipedia. Please also check any other files you have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is a [ list of your uploads]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It's my own work, sections now completed, thanks. But as file now replaced by File:SapcoteImpalingDinhamBamptonChurchDevon.JPG(commons), please delete this old file anyway. Thanks. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC))

John II Hawley (d.1408)
We can't just add parts to a person's name! Have you seen any sources where this person is call "John II Hawley"? If not, he must be at John Hawley (!dab-phrase!), preferably something like (politician)... DBD 20:24, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * See his HoP biog at Woodger, L.S., biography of John Hawley (d.1408) published in History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe., 1993 where he is called "HAWLEY, John I (d.1408) of Dartmouth", which then proceeds to call him the son of "John Hawley of Dartmouth". The former's son is called "John II Hawley" in his own HoP biog at . I don't think the terminology "The Elder" in preference to "I" and "The Younger" in preference to "II" is fixed in stone by any particular source, the main point is to distinguish them all effectively and accurately. On this basis the earliest recorded/prominent John Hawley (i.e. the father of John Hawley (d.1408)) should surely be called "John I", his son John II and his grandson John III? I don't think adding ordinal numbers is akin to adding parts to a person's name, as in the US where living people call themselves e.g. "Henry Ford III". It depends what angle you're looking at them from. The ordinal numbers I used refer to John Hawleys who were important persons in Dartmouth, not more narrowly to John Hawleys who have been MP's, as the History of Parliament article necessarily limits itself to, being only concerned with persons with parliamentary careers. At WP we'd still be interested in a person even if not an MP, thus if John III's son wasn't an MP but was an important landowner in Dartmouth, a wealthy merchant or perhaps Sheriff of Devon, I think we'd call him John IV in his own WP article, and if his son was an MP, we'd have to call him John V, whilst his HoP biog would probably call him John III, being only the third John Hawley to have been an MP. The most important distinguishing feature in the name, whatever ordinal number is used, is the date of death, which resolves any possible confusion, but ordinal numbers remove the need in an article to constantly repeat dates of death, and if clearly defined at the start of the article (i.e. "John II was the son of John I by his wife Mary Smith"), I suggest are useful in this context.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

John II Baring (1730-1816)
Hi Lobsterthermidor  (love the name!)

I was wondering why you moved the page to John II Baring (1730-1816).

So far as I can see, either John Baring (1730-1816) or John II Baring would have been unambiguous, and this appears to be double-disambiguation. Have I missed something? -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:48, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't really fault your argument, clearly I'm of the belt-and-braces persuasion. Thanks for having restored the deleted text too.  (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 13:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC))
 * Thanks for being so nice about it :)
 * There is a case for using the numeric dabs, but if so they should come after the name not in the middle of it. His name was not "John II Baring". -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Compound vs. composition
Hi Lobsterthermidor, You recently added material related to the word compound to the disambiguation page composition. I would suggest that instead that material belongs on the disambiguation page compound, with a see-also link connecting the two. What do you think? Best, JBL (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I had considered that, but concluded that the two (or more) forms, derived from Latin 1st person present & supine, were inextricable (hence why I gave the parts of the Latin verb). For example a composition and compounding as used in Civil War fines, "he paid a composition" and "he compounded", which one would Composition (fine) go in, or in both? Ditto almost every other entry.  I think it would be very messy. I did create an additional redirect here as Compounding (disambiguation), which should get any reader to this page. I have just realised too that  Compound (disambiguation) also exists. Certainly some form of rationalisation is needed, I would suggest a consolidation into one, allowing use of any form derived from pono, but you may well disagree. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC))
 * Surely the right form of rationalization is by the corresponding English word, which is both a finer (and therefore easier to navigate) disambiguation, and also corresponds with how people will come to the pages. Composition (fine) should obviously be on the disambiguation page composition.  If you believe that a reader might come to the page compound while looking for composition (fine), there is no reason it can't go there, too.  (I have just been reading WP:DPAGE, which provides some guidance.)  I am going to make the edits I have proposed. --JBL (talk) 16:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe that all the links disambiguated on composition with the word "compound" in their titles already appear in the disambiguation page compound, unless I have missed something. --JBL (talk) 16:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, That seems to make sense.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 09:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC))

Devon houses
Hi, can you add all of your entries to List of country houses in the United Kingdom? Trying to make it as comprehensive as possible so all of your great Devon entries will help! You might also use Category:Country houses in Devon. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  19:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Category:Country houses in Devon be a sub-category of List of country houses in the United Kingdom? Would you still want duplicate entries? I have 2 main problems with your request: firstly that the articles I contribute in this area are intended to be primarily about the estate or manor, not just about the building, which takes various forms over time, sometimes has been demolished. I have had problems in the past with other contributors attempting to convert such contributions into narrow architectural articles, hence my reluctance to categorise them as "houses". There is also the problem of determining what constitutes a "country house", generally quite a grand building, whilst many of my contribs. concern now quite modest farmhouses with grander pasts. I have made use of these cats where obviously appropriate and will try to use them in future. Thanks.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC))

Delinquent
Thank you for this edit. I hope you will not think it churlish of me to point out a couple of things.

You linked to the word delinquent which is a dab page, and while one can link to dab pages the da m b bot will tell you that you have done so and like a faithful dog wait for you to throw the stick and fix it. If you do not "fix it" yourself, sooner or later someone else will. I have altered the link to delinquent which is often a better alternative for words like that.

The second one is that you have added some inline citations to sources that just consist of bare URLs. They look ugly (particularly is someone prints a hard copy) and they are more difficult to fix when they suffer link rot (See WP:CITE).

I was going to fixed them but I thought I could introduce you to this nifty tool and let you have a go. It is not perfect and if the link to to a google book a better tool to use is:
 * Wikipedia Reflinks extern Reflinks -- best used as an interactive tool.
 * Google book tool Converts bare url into cite book format.

-- PBS (talk) 17:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Improper page moves
Hello, I've noticed that you've made several improper page moves. For example you recently moved Compounding to. However, a primary topic (e.g. compounding) should never be a redirect; it should either be a full article or a disambiguation page, and there is absolutely no reason to have it redirect to a parenthetical title. Graham 87 09:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see why the pharmaceutical use of the term compounding is deemed the "primary topic". Why is not, for example, its use in the field of finance? To have an article entirely about pharmaceutical matters with the simple title "Compounding" appears to put that usage at the top of the indexing tree, which is surely a matter of judgement. Am I mis-understanding something?(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC))
 * Consensus for whether a title should or should not be a primary topic should be made at requested moves. What was really weird by Wikipedia standards was having the title "Compounding" redirect to a single use of the term; the title "Compounding" should either contain an actual article or a disambiguation page (I have no opinion about which one), not a redirect. Graham 87 15:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're probably right on that, see the discussion above headed Compound vs. composition, where I conceded the point you make.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC))

Merryfield, Ilton & Hoskins, p.422
Thanks for creating Merryfield, Ilton, but you added a reference to "Hoskins, p.422" without giving further details - could you give the title, publisher, isbn etc?&mdash; Rod talk 21:15, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. I don't generally supply pub & isbn when working from old editions, here 1959, now only available from 2nd hand bookshops, so isbn & pub not relevant in helping reader find it. This book is available in in-print paperback, so that info could be added by someone if they feel inclined. Thanks for your additions too.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC))

Orchard Wyndham, Wyndham holdings & Brean Down
Hi, I noticed in the list of historic estates you added to Orchard Wyndham a mention of Brean Down - do you have any dates for when they owned it?&mdash; Rod talk 10:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No idea, the current WP article makes no mention, but I refer you to my source: National Archives, Family and Estate Details, Wyndham family of Orchard Wyndham, GB/NNAF/F89128 Here. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)). By the way, thanks for having created the article, I hadn't noticed!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC))

Earl of Westmorland
With this edit (7 March 2012 ) you cited "Debrett's Peerage, 1968" I am having difficulty clearly identifying the book. Please provide some more information. The full title and the location of publication is the minim needed, but in addition editor and the publisher would be help. -- PBS (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Montague-Smith, P.W. (ed.), Debrett's Peerage, Baronetage, Knightage and Companionage, Kelly's Directories Ltd, Kingston-upon-Thames, 1968. Now added to edit cited. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 08:54, 21 September 2014 (UTC))

Holnicote Estate
Thanks for all your work on Holnicote Estate. As each of the references is being reused several times how would you feel about me converting it to Template:Sfn? and I will try to add some more content as well - maybe this could get to GA standard eventually?&mdash; Rod talk 11:43, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input too, esp. the excellent image of the monument, delivered at precisely the right time and place! Thanks for asking, I loathe refs being converted into shortened form from basic text as I frequently reuse sources in different related articles, complete with refs. When these are unintelligible and scrambled, it all has to be re-deciphered and done again in the new article. Very time-consuming and annoying. I can't see the point myself. It makes editing un-user-friendly. Fine for an article which has been totally finished, as a final tidy up, but WP articles tend to remain dynamic. I do tend to try to shorten refs myself, where already quoted in full or stated in sources section, to something like: "Smith, 1996, p.23" which means more than some ref in unintelligible code. That's my personal view of course. So if I have a choice, I'd prefer not, esp as the group of articles are still developing and thus I frequently use same refs. More content great. As for GA status, I'm not a fan. It tends to fossilise articles and involves people often with little interest in the subject itself but with more interest in the minor details, which makes further development difficult. I've seen many GA articles which frankly are pretty poor and could do with a total re-write, which is by then impossible due to the bureaucratic hurdles of GA status. Again, purely my own personal opinion.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC))
 * OK I'll leave the refs for now, maybe once you have "finished" we can look again as I find sfn & similar make it easier for the reader if a book has been used multiple times, although I accept your comment tha it may make it more difficult for the editor(s). BTW I have access to The British Newspaper Archive though wikipedia library & just did a search for holnicote so have lots more sources for events including the sale of the property etc which I will get around to at some point. GA article can always still be edited (including radically if needed), but I see your point. One of my projects at the moment (well a year or two) is to get all 37 National Trust properties in Somerset to GA (see User:Rodw) so if there are any others on that list (or the EH ones) you are/might be working on let me know & I will leave them alone.&mdash; Rod talk 12:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC) I've made a start on one of your red links Petherton Park - hope this is helpful.&mdash; Rod talk 20:25, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, very helpful, thanks. Petherton Park looks like an interesting topic, which I've come across several times, not just due to Acland/Wroth involvement but due to its ancient holders who seem to have held it due to their post as royal foresters of Petherton Park, (i.e. Jollenus Dacus), but that's all I know.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC))
 * Would you be happy for me to reformat the references on the Holnicote Estate article now?&mdash; Rod talk 13:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Still not finished, lots more info needed on mediaeval estate & surviving gateway etc, but you've been patient enough so go ahead if you want. Thanks a lot.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC))
 * Thanks - making a start. Can I just clarify is "Vivian, Lt.Col. J.L., (Ed.) The Visitation of the County of Devon: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1531, 1564 & 1620, Exeter, 1895, p.554, pedigree of Martyn" The same as this 2012 book which doesn't give Vivian as the author?&mdash; Rod talk 17:32, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Also ref 24 points to this page of Geograph This is user generated content with little or no editorial control (so maybe not RS). Its probably OK to support a claim about the window but doesn't really support everything in the picture caption.&mdash; Rod talk 17:38, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Re Vivian, yes the publication you refer to is the same, but this undated USA photo-reprint (that's all it is) has mangled the publisher details. It's not a new edition. The original was not published by the College of Arms (whose officers did carry out the actual 16th/17th c. visitations), but by the Harleian Society. The ref I usually give for this source which you quote above is taken from the title page of the 1895 Harleian Society book. The photo-reprint (Nabu Public Domain Reprints) did not reproduce the title page, intro, preface etc. and in fact thus omits any mention of Vivian! Re geograph used as source for caption of Lynch Chapel window (date of restoration & patron), good point, have now added the actual source used, quoting from Pevsner, but can't supply the page no. I'm afraid. Thanks for your input.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC))
 * OK I will try to put the Vivian ref together from what you've given me. My old (1958) copy of Pevsner S&W Somerset (p227) has info on the chapel at Lynch & says the window was renewed in 1885 but doesn't mentionThomas Dyke Acland.&mdash; Rod talk 18:42, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Think I've got the Vivian one - what does (pedigree of Martyn) mean? Isn't that sub section about the Martyns&mdash; Rod talk 18:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * PK I think I can help with ref 25. I would cite it to the EHR page where you read it. Looking at that page Pevsner p227 is there but the bit you've quoted is from (their ref 19) BOSSINGTON & WEST LYNCH CONSERVATION AREA CHARACTER APPRAISAL so we can use that as a ref if better.&mdash; Rod talk 19:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The Lynch Chapel source is a bit of a mess, my fault. I hope to add an article on the building itself at some point, possibly part of one on Bossington. The stained glass is quite interesting. The framed info-sheet in the porch of the chapel states restoration in 1880's by Sir Thomas Acland. My identification of the correct baronet of this name per life dates, as several were called Thomas. (see Acland Baronets). He was definitely the patron and owner of this chapel. I'd rather use Pevsner as source, seems more solid, than the www.exmoorher.co.uk one, but if your're happy with the latter, fine. Re Vivian, it's basically a list of pedigrees, each family occupying a few pages, in alphabetical order. Martyn refers the reader to the section on that family.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC))
 * I've used all 3 refs as they all support slightly different bits. I removed (pedigree of Martyn) as the page number is given.&mdash; Rod talk 19:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Henry Bourchier, 5th Earl of Bath
In May this year you added information to Henry Bourchier, 5th Earl of Bath (diff) during which you added short citations to Andriette, and Pevsner. Unfortunately there are no long citations in the References section to give full bibliographic details. Please add a long citations to the References section. -- PBS (talk) 11:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Done, sorry for the oversight.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 13:10, 25 October 2014 (UTC))
 * Thank you for your very quick response, however because you have not put the title in italics, I can not tell if "Newton Abbot" is the location of the publisher, part of the title or a "chapter" in the book. please could you alter the citation to make that clear and then I will take care of formatting it using templates (I a more familiar with the Pevsner citation as I used a sister volume for Westwood House). -- PBS (talk) 14:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Done, hope that's clearer, Newton Abbot is place where published. Westwood House, interesting, hadn't heard of it.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC))
 * Thanks, no reason why you should have heard of Westwood House (with over 4 million articles to read!). A detail I like, and added to the article, is that the much more famous Chateau Impney may have been built as a two fingered political and social salute between new industrial money and an old aristocratic family. -- PBS (talk) 16:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Hadn't heard of that either, somewhat hideous!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC))

Category:Quantified human groups
Category:Quantified human groups, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. SFB 15:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, have added my comment there.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:19, 21 January 2015 (UTC))

Merger discussion for Fee tail
An article that you have been involved in editing, Fee tail, has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. MiguelMadeira (talk) 11:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC) --MiguelMadeira (talk) 11:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Devon Domesday Book tenants-in-chief


The article Devon Domesday Book tenants-in-chief has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Article does not seem to be about a notable topic.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Stifle (talk) 14:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This page was nominated for deletion on 17 February 2015 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:03, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Knight of the Body
Please see Talk:Esquire of the Body -- PBS (talk) 20:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Devon Domesday Book tenants-in-chief for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Devon Domesday Book tenants-in-chief is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Devon Domesday Book tenants-in-chief until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Stifle (talk) 09:06, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have added my remarks on that page.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2015 (UTC))

Battle of Clyst Heath (1455)
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Battle of Clyst Heath (1455), and it appears to include material copied directly from http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/ClystStMary/Radford1912.html.

It is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article. The article will be reviewed to determine if there are any copyright issues.

If substantial content is duplicated and it is not public domain or available under a compatible license, it will be deleted. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material. You may use such publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. See our copyright policy for further details. (If you own the copyright to the previously published content and wish to donate it, see Donating copyrighted materials for the procedure.) CorenSearchBot (talk) 19:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Work in public domain, out of copyright, please see Talk:Battle of Clyst Heath (1455).(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 20:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC))

Reference errors on 9 May
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that some edits performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. as follows: Please check these pages and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/RBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/RBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=ReferenceBot%20–%20&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * On the John Arundell (of Trerice, died 1580) page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=661590992 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F661590992%7CJohn Arundell (of Trerice, died 1580)%5D%5D Ask for help])
 * On the Trerice page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=661591251 your edit] caused a broken reference name (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F661591251%7CTrerice%5D%5D Ask for help])

Holnicote Estate again
As you may have noticed I nominated the Holnicote Estate estate article for GA. Although it has not been reviewed yet I received this message suggesting some changes which would be needed to the article for it to pass. Having looked again at the article I think some of the points are valid, particularly about the family histories, most of which I believe you wrote. I think we need to make clear what the connection of the families listed are to the estate, turn a lot of the bullet lists into prose and improve the referencing. I think this would also involve the removal of some of the images and detail about their coats of arms etc as not being directly relevant to the estate. Perhaps these details could be moved into articles on the specific families (similar to the Acland baronets article) and then linked from the Holnicote article. I wanted to ask you about this before making major revisions.&mdash; Rod talk 19:51, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, of course I'm disappointed that much of the historic interest of this article has been removed or now treated in a relatively superficial manner, with limited scope for expansion. There seems to be a problem with what is meant by an estate: is it the lichen and footpaths or the history of ownership, or both? The Victoria County History model which I follow is concerned purely with the descent. That is an important topic in itself which is often very complex, contains many gaps, and is helped by use of bullet points, sub-sections, etc, to avoid a sort of name-check-spaghetti which confuses the reader. Illustrations of coats of arms, are also useful, as shown in VCH articles, and help show descent from one family to another. I'm not sure there's still room for both aspects in this article, the historical and topographical. I'm tempted to WP:SPLIT the descent element to a new article called perhaps: Descent of manor of Holnicote, where this important topic can be given a focussed treatment. I could attempt to deal with some of the detailed points raised in the post you mentioned above, but probably better to resolve the existential point first.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC))
 * I understand your feelings as it is difficult if work you have put in is removed (not by me but by another editor). The work on the descent is important, saying you owned the estate and when, but I'm less sure about including relatives who didn't inherit this estate or the coats of arms etc. I would suggest a split but not trying to focus it on the Descent of manor of Holnicote but on each dynasty of important lords etc, this could then bring in the other properties they owned and their roles. The use of too many bullet points etc may conflict with the Manual of Style eg Manual of Style/Embedded lists.&mdash; Rod talk 14:49, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the listing of descent is an important aspect for every significant estate or manor in England, as recognised by VCH and works of many county historians from 17th c to 19th c, especially in cases like Holnicote which are listed in Domesday Book. Indeed many county histories are concerned with little else, i.e. Risdon & Pole for Devonshire and I suspect Collinson for Somerset, which I would guess you are more conversant with than me. This single-minded interest was again taken up in the 19th c by the likes of the Lyson brothers etc., who drew on the 17th c. pioneers in the field and brought the descents up to date. Burke's Landed Gentry completed the task into the 20th c. I just set that out for the record, I'm sure you are familiar with the rationale, and I'm glad you agree that the work on descent is important. I would emphasise something though: it's not just about the people who "owned" the estate, these people and families created the estate and developed it, built and re-built the mansion house, the village houses, mills, etc, and made it into a local power centre, put it on the map. Without these people the "estate" would just be a mass of virgin forest. As the power of gentry families, who ran local government and formed the pool from which local MP's were elected, came from their landholdings, the estate was virtually synonymous with the family name, and is usually given after the name by good biographers, e.g. History of Parliament, which always gives the member's residence in the article title, i.e. "Acland of Killerton". Much of the interest of Holnicote is due to the fact it was a power base of the Aclands, one of the most powerful families in the Westcountry, and this has to be emphasised, else the general reader will not appreciate the true historical role of the estate other than its natural features, of great importance on another level. I think you are aware of this aspect, but it's something that has to be pushed in front of editors who may not have a basic familiarity of the former system of administration of the English counties by local gentry dynasties. If it is important to deal with these families let us say "seated" at the estate as their powerbase, then mere names are of little use to the reader, some background needs to be included, e.g. that the Blackfords came from Dunster. In the case of certain dynasties little is recorded other than who their relatives were, in which case text on such relations seems relevant. Where a lot is known about the actual holder, such info may well be extraneous. The coats of arms apart from being in themselves of much interest to many readers and a notable topic (arms are mentioned and illustrated in so many of the sources, incl. VCH, and appear in the parish church (Selworthy Church) visited by thousands yearly - it's near the tourist hotspots of N. Somerset). They also are useful to liven up often long paragraphs of text where no portrait or other suitable image is available. Coats of arms were taken extremely seriously by owners of such estates, they were the symbol of the family and like a flag of a country were accorded much honour, and certainly have a place in articles on each dynasty. I don't know if your point above about "relatives who didn't inherit this estate" refers to the edit  13:47, 21 May 2015‎ Noswall59 "(→‎Acland: removing portrait of Edward Dyke - he never even owned the estate!)", which is somewhat annoying as he was the lynchpin by which Holnicote came to the Aclands, see Hancock p.173: "Lady Acland thus became a great heiress. Her uncle, John, who is described as of Holnicote Court, esq., died s.p. in the spring, 1732, and the Holnicote estate passed to her" (sic, should be his) "brother Edward, who proved his brother John's will 24th May, 1732. And so, on the death of Edward Dyke (2), the estates both of Holnicote and Pixton passed to her."  If anyone's portrait belongs in the article it's Edward Dyke's! Sorry to go on a bit, last point: I don't totally follow what you mean: "I would suggest a split but not trying to focus it on the Descent of manor of Holnicote but on each dynasty of important lords etc, this could then bring in the other properties they owned and their roles." If I understand you correctly you are advocating e.g. a separate article on the Blackford family and another on the Dyke family. I'm not sure I would agree with that, if that's your meaning, the Dykes perhaps were notable per se, but perhaps not the Blackfords, it was their role in the development and descent of Holnicote which makes them notable, and there they are key players, so to divorce them from an article on Holnicote might make the article liable to a non-notability challenge. I do think the chain of descent format is the right one, it's well established by the writers I referred to above, and used by the VCH today. In that regard completeness of the chain of descent is important, as VCH tries to do where records exist. I would like to get on with the WP:SPLIT soon, but I would like to agree with you the correct format, clearly I am advocating a "chain of descent" format, before I proceed. If you could elaborate your point "not trying to focus it on the Descent of manor of Holnicote", that would be helpful. Thanks.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC))
 * I would agree that descent is important, but perhaps not with the emphasis you (and VCH) give, particularly where text is included which can only bee sen as tangential to the estate itself. In addition I think there is a risk of including material which is difficult to verify particularly their contribution to the estate under discussion particularly as "in the case of certain dynasties little is recorded other than who their relatives were". The coats of arms may be of interest in themselves; however I don't think we have any evidence to claim that thay are "of much interest to many readers" - it is very difficult to find what readers are looking for and often we assume that they have similar interests to ourselves - I am amazed that pop star biographies etc are massively more viewed than nationally and internationally renowned heritage sites. If the particular family and/or their coat of arms are "a notable topic" then it should be possibly to create articles on them, and this is what I meant when I suggested trying to create articles on the dynasty/family, perhaps with specific articles for the most notable individuals in a similar manner to the Acland baronets or you could take the approach of the Feudal barony of Dunster, however I think that may be more difficult if there are several "minor branches" (younger brothers etc). So I would support "a separate article on the Blackford family and another on the Dyke family" but you have a lot more knowledge than I do about whether there are enough sources to support this approach.&mdash; Rod talk 19:47, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There are so many inaccuracies and errors in the new "drive-by edited" text it is hard to know where to start putting things right - and can I really be bothered? In the haste to obtain the meaningless status of "good article", accuracy and content has been cast aside, by editors who have no real interest in this topic whatsoever. Very depressing. Just think of the reader - who really wants to learn about Holnicote and is served up this kind of superficial garbage.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC))
 * Hi, Lobsterthermidor. I can understand that you are disappointed about having some of your additions removed. I value your work and the outline of the descent that you gave was helpful in formulating a summary of it. However, this was no simple "drive-by" edit and I am interested about where I have "cast aside" accuracy and transformed the article into "superficial garbage". I researched the descent using works by Hancock, Maxwell Lyte, Chadwyck-Healey, et al. I don't believe that the latter had been used in the article, which was a shame given that he has a fairly scholarly chapter dedicated to Holnicote's manorial history which allowed me to expand upon the early history and include lots of new info on the Steynings. You have elsewhere disputed the Domesday material I added, and I have responded to that on the talk page. You've also talked above about Edward Dyke. As Maxwell Lyte states (p. 442), "Henrietta [Blackford] ... died in 1733 ... The Blackford property in Somerset then passed to her second cousin, Elizabeth daughter of Thomas Dyke of Tetton in the parish of Kingston. This lady, who eventually inherited the large, though scattered, estates of the several branches of the Dyke family, married, in 1745, Sir Thomas Acland". Your source suggests that Edward Dyke inherited it and then it passed to Elizabeth. I've looked in Chadwyck-Healey and found an explanation which clarifies this issue (I've added it to the article). I hold my hands up: I used Maxwell Lyte and it turns out he omitted some details by skimming over the complexities of the inheritance: the outcome was the same, but you are right to stress the importance of the descent. But please remember that you didn't cite your source(s) for the Blackford-Dyke-Acland inheritance, and you didn't really provide a narrative for how the estate was passed on. As a reader with "no real interest in the topic", I found your bullet-pointed list of people rather confusing, as I suspect a lot of other readers might have done. So, I tried to clarify it and when I read Maxwell Lyte's narrative, Dyke's portrait and a lot of the info about the family seemed irrelevant to the article. Now, I am happy to hear any more concerns over "inaccuracies" and "garbage". I would be happy to improve the article if it transpires that I am wrong. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC).
 * We all make mistakes, myself included, and some of mine were doubtless within this article. That's part of the WP process. What surely goes against the philosophy of WP is to scythe down articles which were carefully researched and sourced and included some real gems of info (to those really interested, who are the true target readership, not just the browser) and very rare images. Why was the portrait of Edward Dyke cast aside so carelessly? I can tell you as someone really interested in Holnicote, when I found this image I was very excited, for good reason. And the fact it still hangs in Dunster Castle is more exciting still. (I don't know whether you are up to speed about his involvement with the Luttrell family of Dunster, if not you might find it of interest) For someone to dispose of the image so thoughtlessly is a prima facie indication of a lack of real interest and understanding of the topic. Likewise the photo of the extremely valuable (I'm not concerned with £sd here) mediaeval stained glass in the stables, photographed by myself at great effort and with much excitement, again chucked out by someone who did not appreciate its value in illustrating the story. Apart from the gatehouse of the old mediaeval mansion house (which needs to be dealt with in the article too, I have photos) the fragment of stained glass is the only survival of the ancient history of the estate. It's almost gold dust. Sometimes contributing to WP can feel like casting pearls before swine. I'm glad to hear you really are interested in the topic. Let me set you this challenge: find out more about Edward Dyke and the role he played in transmitting Holnicote to the Aclands. When you have re-instated his portrait it will be a sign that you have understood. My word "garbage" was perhaps a bit overstated. My point is that it is of no use whatsoever to a reader to say "Holnicote was held by the Staynings family", or "by the xyz family", as a bald statement; is the reader supposed to know who they were, or is this just therefore a meaningless bit of text? We need to embroider a bit so the reader gains an appreciation of who they were, where they came from, why they were important, or if not why not - and why were the coats of arms thrown out? (drawn by myself, again a work of some considerable effort). Heraldry is a highly important topic, and survivals of ancient heraldic imagery as exists in Selworthy Church, almost exclusively concerning holders of Holnicote, are rare and valuable. The church is visited by thousands each year, unusual, many of whom stare incomprehendingly at the monuments, brasses and stained glass, and need this WP article to explain this complex topic.  That sort of info is out there, in good sources. If you really do want to improve the article in these regards I will be delighted to work with you, but if what you are aiming at is a suppressed or dumbed-down history which deprives the truly interested reader of valuable information and images, then we're not going to agree.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC))

Hudscott Photographs Commons Media
Hudscott Photographs

I've been taking photographs for the OS Geograph page and came across the attribution "Lobsterthermidor". Assuming this is you, I would like to use your excellent photos of Hudscott Manor under the Creative Commons licence and would prefer to have your OK first if they are yours.

The photo reference is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudscott

keoka 03:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keoka (talk • contribs)
 * Thanks, yes, please feel free to use them as you wish. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC))

Debrett's
Hi. I noticed that you added a few references of Debrett's Peerage to Creedy, Sandford. Do you still happen to have access to Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage 2015? Regards - NQ (talk)  14:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, would you like me to look something up for you?(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC))
 * If you could help with this request by Hroðulf over at the Resource Exchange, that would be great. Thanks! - NQ (talk)  20:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Straw poll on the use of The Rt. Hon.
Hello. I have created a straw poll on whether The Right Honourable should be used in infoboxes for all Barons, Viscounts and Earls or just for Privy Counsellors. The poll is here. I wish that you could give your opinion there and maybe comment. --Editor FIN (talk) 05:31, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring at Reginald de Warenne
Hi, Lobsterthermidor. An editor has pointed me to this unusual edit summary by you. Two people edit warring don't by any means "own" that edit war: on the contrary, the sooner it's broken up by a third party, the better. You're a pretty experienced editor, so I think you know that edit warring is considered unconstructive. There is no "3RR process". Also please don't try to intimidate editors from taking a dispute to talk: absolutely anybody can do that. You don't own the dispute either. Bishonen &#124; talk 13:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC).
 * I think User:Ealdgyth jumped the gun here by calling in two canvassed reinforcements, yourself and User:hchc2009, to what was at most an edit skirmish. One revert does not make an edit war, it constitutes the start of a perfectly proper WP procedure outlined in the 3RR rule. First Reverts happen thousands of times an hour on WP and each one does not attract this sort of heavy-handed response generated by possible inappropriate notification to contacts of the reverted party.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:06, 1 November 2015 (UTC))
 * I reverted. Then you reverted back your changes. Then Hchc2009 (who I did not call in) reverted your revert of my revert of your bold change. Then you reverted Hchc's revert.... which put you over 3RR. 3RR doesn't mean you revert up to (and past) 3 reverts. The best practice is to do the WP:BRD process - which means you make a bold edit, someone else reverts it and then both editors discuss. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, Lobsterthermidor? Ealdgyth alerted Hchc2009 and myself (as an admin) after your unusual edit summary. Hchc2009 had at that time already made the edit your summary complained of. And asking for admin input is always perfectly proper. Please don't baselessly accuse somebody of "calling in canvassed reinforcements" and "inappropriate notification". You know those are pretty serious accusations, I presume, since you go so far as to link to the Canvassing guideline. Bishonen &#124; talk 14:26, 1 November 2015 (UTC).
 * Ealdgyth says above "Hchc2009 (who I did not call in)"; not supported by the two successive entries in her contributions log (18:07, 18:09, 31 October 2015) (which produced cryptic posts to Hchc2009 and Bishonen), and not supported by Bishonen who says above: "Ealdgyth alerted Hchc2009 and myself (as an admin)". This is not the proper way to alert ad admin, which should be done in a formal and transparent manner. See Canvassing. I've had enough of this ridiculous bickering.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC))

Sources and page numbers on Merryfield, Ilton
Hi again, Following your edits to Merryfield, Ilton some "tags" have been added asking for further info which show up as part of my attempt to reduce the number of problems identified at the cleanup listing for WP Somerset. I was wondering if you could help with:
 * Pic caption Ref 21 for the demolition of Merryfield House is cited to Collinson but without a page number. I have looked at Collinson but can't find it - can you help?
 * Ref 21: Collinson supposed source replaced with correct one:Gatehouse Gazeteer, Merryfield House(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC))
 * OK I've just formatted it.&mdash; Rod talk 19:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The pic caption "She was the wife of Sir John III Wadham and the collar of roses worn around her neck is said to represent the crest of Wadham" is cited (Ref 14) to a framed information sheet in Ilton Church and a tag has been added asking for a non-primary source. In looking I have found out a bit about collars as symbolism (eg this), however I haven't been able to find a better source for the specific claim re Wadham - can you help?
 * There probably isn't one, this is a fairly arcane point. The church info-leaflet is a perfectly acceptable primary source, which need to be used with care where bias may be introduced, clearly not relevant here. Primary sources are not per se disallowed by WP, some are fine.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)) Are you asking for a source confirming that the Wadham crest was indeed a rose? I can supply that if req'd.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC))
 * Yes a source saying the crest was a rose would probably help.&mdash; Rod talk 19:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, the caption does actually say: "crest of Wadham, a rose argent between a pair of antlers (as visible on the monument to Nicholas II Wadham (died 1609) in Ilminster Church)", can't really be bettered!Crest NicholasWadham Died1608 StMary'sChurch Ilminster Somerset.JPG

Are you able to help with these or shall I remove these claims until a source can be found?&mdash; Rod talk 18:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the most difficult is Ref 19 about whether Margaret Seymour was the aunt of Jane Seymour or sister as stated by Collinson (and also Rogers in the reference however I can't access this) - this has been tagged as original research and it seems to be an individual view unless sources can be found.
 * No, I stand by "aunt", the ref is to be found in the WP article on Sir Nicholas I Wadham, which I shall replicate in this article too. For the record it's as follows: Letters Archaeological and Historical Relating to the Isle of Wight by the late Rev. E. Boucher James, Vol.1, London, 1896 "THE TOMB OF MARGARET WADHAM AT CARISBROOKE CHURCH, AND ALEXANDER ROSS", pp.445-50

"THE TOMB OF MARGARET WADHAM AT CARISBROOKE CHURCH, AND ALEXANDER ROSS. I have received a courteous letter from Mr. Long, of Portsmouth, a diligent student of local history, in which he points out my mistake in calling Margaret Wadham, whose tomb is in Carisbrooke church, the sister of Jane Seymour, third wife of Henry VIII, when she was in reality the aunt of that Queen. A suspicion had often crossed my own mind that Margaret belonged to an earlier generation of the Seymour family than Jane, who was the mother of Edward VI. In the absence of any positive evidence upon this point I did not feel justified in contradicting the statement of Worsley in his History of the Isle of Wight\ who says expressly that the Margaret, who was the second wife of Sir Nicholas Wadham, was the sister of Jane Seymour. Worsley is backed up in this account of the relationship between these two ladies of the Seymour family by the still older authority of Sir John Oglander, who, in his MS., under the heading of The Captains of the Island, has the following entry—‘In Henry the VIII's time, one Wadham, a knight, who lyeth buryed in Carisbrook Church with his wife, who was sister to Edward VI his mother/ As the worthy knight of Nunwell was certainly wrong about Sir N. Wadham being buried in Carisbrooke church, we may be the more ready to distrust what he says about Margaret, his wife. In the case of so illustrious a ducal family as that of the Seymours there ought to be no difficulty in making out the pedigree. On this point I had better quote Mr. Long's own words—‘ There were two, if not three, John Seymours in succession before the Sir John, father of Jane. He had three daughters, Jane married to Henry VIII, Elizabeth to Sir A. Oughtred, and Dorothy to Sir Clement Smith, The two last had second husbands, but neither of them was Sir N. Wadham. The father of this Sir John Seymour was John, living in the reign of Henry VII. He married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir...etc." (see source for remainder)
 * Thanks - I've just formatted it.&mdash; Rod talk 19:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Phew! Thanks for your forensic eye!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC))
 * Thanks for helpful responses.&mdash; Rod talk 19:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Earldom of Orkney
Hello. Could you please explain why you moved "Earldom of Orkney" to "Feudal Earldom of Orkney"?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:36, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Because it is a different topic to the similarly named article Earl of Orkney (another "Earldom of Orkney"), a much later title created in the Peerage of Scotland, which title is presently held by the Fitz-Maurice family. The present representative, so far as I understand it, of the feudal Earls of Orkney is Malcolm Sinclair, 20th Earl of Caithness, who in recognition of this, in his coat of arms quarters the arms of the ancient earldom of Orkney, the lymphad. There is likewise a difference between the feudal Earldom of Arran (at present claimed by a Swiss millionaire who owns land formerly forming the caput of the feudal barony) and the two titles Earl of Arran in the Peerage of Ireland, held by the Gore family, and in the Peerage of Scotland, the latter one at present held by the Duke of Hamilton.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC))
 * So you envisage an article devoted to the medieval earldom, and an article devoted to the peerage created in 1696? OK, but the article that you moved to "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" was about the medieval earldom and doesn't seem to have contained anything about this early modern creation.
 * I think you should move the article back to where it was, and then take the redirect "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" and create a standalone article for this early modern title. That's the simplest way to handle it. "Earldom of Orkney" about the medieval Viking/Norwegian/Scottish earldom, and "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" about the more modern title. As for "Earl of Orkney", its a glorified list that lists all those who bore the titles. The bulkiness of this list can be trimmed and siphoned off into these other two articles.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:59, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand it what is meant by the "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" is exactly what you have called the "medieval Viking/Norwegian/Scottish earldom", which stretches back to pre-history. It is the earldom which existed based on ownership or feudal tenure of land, namely the Orkney Isles, presumably. The "Peerage title" that you have referred to as the "early modern creation" and a "glorified list" would have been created by a monarch (if it followed similar rules to English usage) either by a writ to attend parliament or by letters patent, nothing to do with feudalism, the grantee need not have owned a square inch of land in Orkney. The "glorified list" seems to be the established wikipedia style for peerage titles. I'm going to paste a copy of this discussion to the talk pages of the two articles.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC))
 * Well, the move doesn't make sense to me. I'll see if I can move it back. An article concerning the political history of the earldom seems to be most at home at "Earldom of Orkney", whilst an article that lists all titleholders is most at home at "Earl of Orkney". Why complicate matters? I've never seen "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" used (and Google Books, Google Scholar, Questia, and JSTOR don't turn up any hits for this terminology either). If you feel strongly about "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" you could follow the instructions at Requested moves/Controversial.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * One of the clearest explanations I have found of the "Scottish Feudal Earldom" is in 2009 written report of Lord Lyon King of Arms (re a current claim to the Feudal Earldom of Arran), especially pp.11-12. It is an entirely separate concept from the "peerage" earldom. The problem with the two almost parallel articles as they now exist is that the one ostensibly about the "peerage" earldom (i.e. listing all titleholders), needs to be stripped of text dealing with the feudal earldom, which needs to be merged into the latter article. I am willing to work with you on that if you wish.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC))
 * Thanks for the link. I see what you're getting at. I don't see a problem transferring the 'territorial' text over. Would you leave the list of the medieval earls there, or move that over too?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:16, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Great, I would transfer the list of all the medieval earls to the article on the feudal Earldom, and start the list in the "peerage" article at the first holder of the first peerage created, in the 16th century I seem to recall. I would have one early section header in the "peerage" article called "Feudal Earldom of Orkney" and just have a main article tag under it, i.e., see other article. If that suits, I'll have a go at it, unless you want to yourself.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 01:28, 20 November 2015 (UTC))

ArbCom elections are now open!
Hi, You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:22, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Ways to improve Richard Pembridge
Hi, I'm Dat GuyWiki. Lobsterthermidor, thanks for creating Richard Pembridge!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. This could be a really good article.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Dat GuyWiki (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Stub article, you're a bit quick off the mark!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC))

Against consensus
You were too bold at Harleian Collection and I don't understand how you moved the page but failed to move the associated talk page. Please revert yourself. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 19:57, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No such thing as "too WP:BOLD". Please make your views known on the talk page, to get this discussion moving. You will see there was support from at least 1 editor for a move, let's see if we can flush out a few more.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2016 (UTC))

Copyright violations
Your addition to The Grange, Broadhembury has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  00:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Revert 00:00, 4 March 2016‎ Jolly Janner: the text quoted is fully referenced, with full credit to author. This is not a copyright issue, but a mere quotation, perfectly proper.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Here's a puzzle for you
Fancy a bit of a Devonian mystery? I've been trying to sort out the genealogy of the early Acland baronets, and I've found something peculiar. Sir John Acland, 1st Baronet had rather a number of sons, the number varying somewhat depending on whether you consult standard peerage works like Burke's or Vivian's Visitation (the parish registers of Stoke D'Abernon have revealed some that died young and appear in neither; sadly, the registers from Broadclyst before 1653 don't appear to exist or we should doubtless know more). The standard baronetage reference works (going back to Wotton in 1727, the first to cover the Aclands) all claim that Sir John, who died in August 1647, was succeeded by his eldest son, Sir Francis, who died in 1649 and was followed by his brother Sir John. But the petition to the House of Commons to have his estate removed from sequestration, made on 28 March 1648, came from John Acland, described as "sonn and heire" of Sir John; the petition states that in addition to John, there are three younger sons (presumably Robert, Hugh, and Charles) and a daughter to be provided for. If this is accurate, it seems that Francis must have died before 1649; perhaps he even predeceased his father and never succeeded to the baronetcy. Do you know of anything that could throw light on this puzzle? Choess (talk) 03:29, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the interesting post. Certainly seems a mystery, I can't fault your argument having read your source. The Heraldic Visitation of 1620 was submitted to the heralds and signed by the 29 year-old John Acland (later 1st Bt) as shown in italics in Vivian's 1895 text, and this makes no mention of wife or children in 1620. Thus Vivian's source for the post-1620 pedigree was probably Burke's as you suggest above. Is there no mural monument in Stoke Dabernon Church to Francis? If there is it will hopefully say "Bart", which would be useful. Else the Aclands have been counting their ordinal numbers wrong! seems unlikely. Anne Acland's book pp.10-11 refers to the above petition to Parliament by the 13 year old Sir John Acland, 3rd Bt, and mentions April 1648 quoting his "three younger brothers", and she certainly calls him the 3rd Bt and states that "his elder brother had died". So as you say Sir Francis must have died pre-March 1648, not in 1649 as Vivian states. But then Anne Acland's diagrammatic pedigree in the inside back cover of her book states Sir Francis, 2nd Bt. died 1649, so she too seems to have missed the point you're making, which she herself made! Perhaps Francis only survived his father a few days and thus just left no mark on history, save notching up the Bt. numeral by one? I would suggest this merits giving Sir John Acland, 3rd Baronet his own WP article where the petition can be dealt with and the matter expanded upon. You appear to be most qualified to do that, if you have time, it would be a useful addition.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC))

Courtney Earls of Devon
Lobs, if you're going to move all the earls to a double-mumbered title, when you get to the fifteenth-century earls (in fact, probably mid-fourteenth) could you drop the "de" as per modern RS? I think I started to do this a while back, but took my eye off the ball. Hope all's well. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi  15:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Good to hear from you, thanks. You're on the ball, but I'm afraid just a bit too late! I've done up to and including the 5th/13th Earl, as "de", as they stood, and unfortunately the remaining two already have no "de" to worry about. By the way, "Thomas Courtenay, 6th/14th Earl of Devon (1432–1461)", has two WP articles! (which finally prompted me to tidy up the confusion as you have noticed). The "de"'s can of course be removed from what I've done if you think it important, but must be certain of cut-off date, and rationale, hopefully backed by a good source. Regards.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:08, 6 April 2016 (UTC))

The West Country Challenge
Hi, Are you going to join in at: WikiProject England/The West Country Challenge. I'd particularly appreciate your help with getting the right things included in the core articles & missing articles lists at this stage as we are still preparing for the contest.&mdash; Rod talk 20:33, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like a monster task you're taking on, blows my mind a bit. I'm quite focussed at the moment at filling in gaps in my own areas of interest, so am probably going to stay more parochial. I wish you luck.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:33, 7 May 2016 (UTC))

Sounds like original research
. If this possible identification has been published by a reliable source, please add the reference where that identification was made. If there isn't a reliable source, then you cannot make that tentative connection yourself in a Wikipedia article. —S MALL JIM   12:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Your previous edit to the same article (Manor of Affeton): appears to have the same problem. —S MALL JIM   12:45, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Vivian's Visitations
I noticed that the title of Vivian's The Visitations of the County of Devon... was wrong everywhere you pasted it, so I've corrected it in 400+ pages, using AWB (which also made some incidental automatic corrections). I wrongly changed a few of Colby's The Visitation of the County of Devon in the Year 1620, but have fixed them. Please ensure you amend your copy source to make "Visitation" plural. Thanks! —S MALL JIM   19:45, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The Grange, Broadhembury
Hi! Why are you edit-warring at The Grange, Broadhembury? What exactly do you think that will achieve? I assume you've been around for long enough to know that undoing another editor's work three times in a 24-hour period can result in suspension of your editing privileges? I don't intend to file a report, but strongly suggest that you quickly self-revert. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:35, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, restoring an article virtually deleted by repeated edits bordering on vandalism (in my opinion) is an act of protecting the integrity of Wikipedia. Not edit warring. If you don't like the subject matter of the article, which is a manorial history, a very well established subject written about since the 16th century by eminent county historians (see Richard Carew's Survey of Cornwall for a pioneering work in this field), then that is a policy matter you should raise at RfC, as another editor has suggested on the talk page. Pending that, please do not stubify a carefully written and sourced article which is well within the scope of Wikipedia. Now if you have problems with the long quotes, that is something I possibly agree with you on, and I'm willing to work with you on that if you wish.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:11, 10 May 2016 (UTC))
 * I have removed your inflamatory section title "edit warring", not nice!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2016 (UTC))

RfC on Talk:The Grange, Broadhembury
Sorry to intrude, but I daren't alter this myself. I think you want the link in your RfC to the 'pre-dispute text...' to be a permalink to whichever version of the article you want to highlight – like the '"stubified" text' link is. At the moment it's a link to the article history. —S MALL JIM   10:45, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Edit warring notice...
Your recent editing history at The Grange, Broadhembury shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; you have now made the same edit 6 times. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you don't violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * As an interested party in this dispute, please do not attempt to intimidate other users with threats. Your edit has been reverted per talk.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2016 (UTC))

Hchc2009
Oh dear, what a fool you've made yourself look. Tell me, Sherlock, where's the evidence?  Cassianto Talk   21:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The evidence is given in the post. I await the clarification as requested.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 10:31, 14 May 2016 (UTC))

Speedy deletion nomination of Denys Rolle


A tag has been placed on Denys Rolle requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G6 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an orphaned disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates two or fewer extant Wikipedia pages and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic); or
 * disambiguates no (zero) extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. &#60;&#60;&#60; SOME GADGET GEEK &#62;&#62;&#62; (talk) 17:27, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Category:Buildings in Barnstaple has been nominated for discussion
Category:Buildings in Barnstaple, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 14:54, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

September 2016
Hello! Thank you for your recent contributions to Manchester Grammar School. I did have one note for you. I am working on a maintenance project to clean up Category:Pages using infoboxes with thumbnail images. In the future, please do not use thumbnails when adding images to an infobox (see WP:INFOBOXIMAGE). What does this mean? Well in the infobox, when you specify the image you wish to use, instead of doing it like this:

SomeImage.jpg

Instead just supply the name of the image. So in this case you can simply do:

SomeImage.jpg.

There will then be a separate parameter for the image caption such as Some image caption. Please note that this is a generic form message I am leaving on your page because you recently added a thumbnail to an infobox. The specific parameters for the image and caption may be different for the infobox you are using! Please consult the Template page for the infobox being used to see better documentation. Thanks!! Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 17:09, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Category:Three-letter disambiguation pages has been nominated for discussion
Category:Three-letter disambiguation pages, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Category:Lethbridge baronets has been nominated for discussion
FYI: The Category:Lethbridge family category is involved in this too. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Ambox warning orange.svg Category:Lethbridge baronets, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Former manors in England


A tag has been placed on Category:Former manors in England requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and it is not presently under discussion at Categories for discussion, or at disambiguation categories.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. — swpb T 13:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Former manors in Gloucestershire


A tag has been placed on Category:Former manors in Gloucestershire requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and it is not presently under discussion at Categories for discussion, or at disambiguation categories.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. — swpb T 13:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Gilbert Paige
Hello Lobsterthermidor! While working on something else, I've found a document that (I think) sorts out the question of Gilbert's parentage. If you email me (M.Steggle at shu.ac.uk) will be happy to send you a scan. Matt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.86.206 (talk) 13:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, please feel free to contribute the information to the article yourself, make sure you add a reference to the source! If you do not wish to do this, please discuss your findings with me here. It would be a useful addition to the article.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi! I won't post the scan here since it'd infringe copyright, and I'd prefer not to make the edit myself because it doesn't really fit wikipedia's policy of no original research, but the bit of paper is - National Archives: PCC admon. act bk. 1591, f. 167. This is an entry in the register of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, dated February 1591. In this, four relatives of William Page "nuper de Plymouth" [until recently of Plymouth] ask for letters of administration to be taken out following his death in order to look after his estate for his four legitimate but under-age children, Gilbert, Job, Matthew, and Mary.   This document does not state that Page has been murdered, but the dates and place match with the pamphlet.  So it would look as if Gilbert is the son of William Page and, presumably, his previous, non-murderous wife (the pamphlet mentions he is a widower when he marries Eulalia).  I haven't found a baptism entry for Gilbert, but Matthew, son of William Page, is baptised at St Andrew's Plymouth on 1 October 1584, and he could be that third child.  This is in the context of a bit of ongoing research I'm doing on Page of Plymouth and the texts associated with him. All the best, Matt  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.39.53 (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Matt! Very interesting, but I think you are correct to state that your deduction, no doubt highly plausible, would not meet WP's rules re OR. Nevertheless I will copy this post to the talkpage of the article, as background or suggestion for further sourcing. I wish you well with your ongoing work! If you do publish something, then perhaps it might qualify for inclusion. Best wishes(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC))

Category:Estates in Powys has been nominated for discussion
Category:Estates in Powys, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 23:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Knight reference
I've been tidying up Brightley, Chittlehampton which is mostly your work, and have come across three references to "Knight" (pages 35, 36 and 38). There's no further detail and since "Knight" is such a common word in this context, I can't locate what source is meant. Could you provide the full reference, please? TIA. —S MALL JIM   15:18, 13 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Update. I've found the reference; you left it behind when you created Brightley out of what you'd added to Chittlehampton. You added the ref back in 2012 in, it says "Knight, Rae (Ed.), The Book of Chittlehampton, A North Devon Parish, Tiverton, 2000". I assume it's this book at Google Books, although the details don't agree – Google says Book of Chittlehampton: Celebrating a North Devon Parish by John Andow, Stella Levy, published by Halsgrove in 2000, ISBN 9781841140575. Would you check, and add the full reference to Brightley, Chittlehampton, please? —S MALL  JIM   15:23, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've added it myself. If its wrong, it's your fault ;-) —S MALL  JIM   12:30, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Image sizes
Hello again. When you add an image to an article, you should now omit the  parameter. See WP:IMAGESIZE which is policy and says "Except with very good reason, do not use px (e.g. thumb|300px), which forces a fixed image width." It's printed in bold, so it must be important! Hope this helps. —S MALL JIM   20:07, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I see you're to your images. Please stop. You've been advised of the policy.  —S MALL  JIM   11:22, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I would further recommend you stop doing this, as you have just done on Thorne, Ottery St Mary.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  05:28, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry I did not know that! Will omit the px in future - might slip up on the odd occasion as it's an ingrained habit of several years!(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC))
 * The policy is not widely followed, but certainly setting images below the 220px default is very rarely good. Putting eg the lead image at 300px is often a good idea. Johnbod (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Using just thumb is OK with me, thanks.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

d.v.p.
I've undone to List of Latin phrases (D). There are no Google hits on Decessit vivente patre (or matre) in a genealogical context, but many on Decessit vita patris which you have removed. I've also removed the entry for Defunctus vivente patre, which you added in 2012, but is poorly attested - all the Google hits appear to originate from this page, and it doesn't appear in Google Scholar. Please ensure that you do the appropriate research before making changes, and don't let your own opinions of what is correct overrule the usefulness of WP for the typical user, if that's what happened here. —S MALL JIM   11:17, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Elinor Fowell
I've removed the detail you added to William Fowell about a monumental brass to his wife. The sources you cite are not reliable and I can't find any RS that says the brass was to Elinor Fowell. As I'm sure you read, the britishlistedbuildings page just says "In north trancept [sic] a small brass depicting a woman, found in 1862 and reset in frame on wall." Crossing wrote a bit more in his Ancient Stone Crosses of Dartmoor... (1902): "In the north transept, which was restored in 1862, is a stained window, with figures of the four evangelists, and in the east wall of the same is a brass, having engraved upon it the effigy of a female. It was discovered in the year just mentioned, close at hand, along with another, which was unfortunately destroyed."

Holloway's book, Elinor with the Pleading Eyes, may not be a "story", as you called it - a bulletin board comment calls it a history of the Vowell family - short of any reviews, you'd have to find a copy to check, I think. —S MALL JIM   00:46, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the same passage from Fowelscombe. —S MALL JIM   15:34, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

File:WraxallSomersetChurch.jpg
Hello, please correct the license of the image, which is obviosly wrong. The image was indeed not published befor 1923. Thanks in advance. --Matthiasb (talk) 22:44, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC))

Hillersdon House
I have suggested that Hillersdon House be renamed to Manor of Hillersdon as since you have added a lot of additional history of the manor, it is no longer primarily about the house. I would welcome your input over at Talk:Hillersdon_House. --NHSavage (talk) 08:14, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Please see my response at Talk:Hillersdon_House. I agree with you which makes the consensus 3:1 in my reckoning! Text on manor split out to new article Manor of Hillersdon.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:59, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Copyright problem on George Slee
Material you included in the above article appears to have been copied from the copyright web page http://www.coldridge-village.co.uk/slee-2.htm. Copying text directly from a source is a copyright violation. Unfortunately, for copyright reasons, the content had to be removed. Please leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions or if you think I made a mistake. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought I had reworded it sufficiently; never mind. I think the text I used as source was in fact itself copied verbatim from a 19th century source, hence the slightly archaic language. I will locate that out of copyright source and try again, thanks.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

File source problem with File:BarrellsHall.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:BarrellsHall.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the page from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of the website's terms of use of its content. If the original copyright holder is a party unaffiliated with the website, that author should also be credited. Please add this information by editing the image description page.

If the necessary information is not added within the next days, the image will be deleted. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.

Please refer to the image use policy to learn what images you can or cannot upload on Wikipedia. Please also check any other files you have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is a [ list of your uploads]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Kelly hi! 09:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of File:WoolpackInnBeckinton.jpg


The file File:WoolpackInnBeckinton.jpg has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern:
 * Unused derivative work

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Kelly hi! 09:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Arwenack: Caption to Aerial View
Hello Lobsterthermidor, Two years ago you added an aerial view to the article about Arwenack, with a caption tentatively dating the image to circa 1840. I have added a note in the article's Talk page to the effect that the date is more probably mid-1860s or later. That would, I think, still be consistent with the "transition of shipping between sail and steam"). As I am not certain either, I haven't edited the caption, but you may wish to revisit it. Best wishes --Frans Fowler (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have pasted your text into the file description.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:44, 18 June 2017 (UTC))

Hunkins
Hiya. Why move the bishop? Do you expect the governor to supplant the bishop as primary topic (at Joseph Hunkin)? If not, why disambiguate the bishop? DBD 09:21, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I guess his middle name "Wellington" just cries out to be used as a disambiguation handle. But you probably make a good point. If you think it is worth reinstating, please go ahead.(Lobsterthermidor (talk))

Drewe family of Broadhembury
Yo, LobsterT., hope you're well. I see you coming back to work on this- I'd forgotten all about it- the thing is you know, it's 'your' article, but it's got my name on the creation edit. Is there anything we can do about that? &mdash; fortuna  velut luna  13:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm a modest fellow, enjoy the credit yourself if you will, lol.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2017 (UTC))
 * Heh :) But if you're taking it to GA, that would set your seal on it. &mdash; fortuna  velut luna  11:10, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

John Fortescue (Captain of Meaux)
See User talk: Smalljim Clifford Mill (talk) 13:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Category:Quasi resurrection has been nominated for discussion
Category:Quasi resurrection, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Editor2020 (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Sir Richard of Cornwall for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Sir Richard of Cornwall is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Sir Richard of Cornwall until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Agricolae (talk) 00:46, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

September 2018
Please do not use thumbnails inside of infoboxesas you did to Baron Acton. Note that this is your second warning regarding this issue. Continuing to add thumbnails will be seen as disruptive editing. For more information please see WP:INFOBOXIMAGE. When adding an image, instead of doing:

SomeImage.jpg

You can simply supply the name of the image. So in this case just do:

SomeImage.jpg.

There will then be a separate parameter for the image caption such as Some image caption. Please note that this is a generic form message I am leaving on your page because you recently added a thumbnail to an infobox. The specific parameters for the image and caption may be different for the infobox you are using! Please consult the Template page for the infobox being used to see better documentation. Thanks!  Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:18, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

October 2018
Please stop your tendentious editing on Donald Trump. For instance, the statement "many of his public statements were controversial or false" has been discussed to death on the talkpage (as, indeed, has most of the lead section) and consensus has been reached to include it. It seems quite difficult to miss the html comment "DO NOT CHANGE this sentence without prior consensus, see Talk:Donald Trump, item 7" which was directly appended to the statement in edit mode; but you simply went ahead and removed it anyway, without any attempt to discuss on talk. That's just one example. Use the talkpage, and stop editing Donald Trump like a bull in a china shop, or you will be blocked. Bishonen &#124; talk 23:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC).
 * It should not be necessary to go through an elaborate talk process to amend text which is clearly and obviously POV. "Trump is bad, Trump lied, Trump is racist, Trump is not as rich as he claims, etc." Not a single good point appears in a prominent position. But, hey, that's what Trump does to people, even to experienced wikipedia editors, they lose their independence of mind. The text of the current article is so blatantly a hit-job, which is unworthy of wikipedia. And those responsible are attempting to maintain the bias by inserting "DO NOT CHANGE" commands within the text.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you posted these arguments on my talkpage as well, I have answered you there. But I might as well repeat myself here, since I have a repeated warning for you, that I want to make sure you see. If you continue to ride roughshod over consensus at Donald Trump, or for that matter if you take similar editing to other political articles, you will be sanctioned, with either a topic ban from American politics, or a block, depending on the circumstances. As hidden text in the edit field states in many cases (and I note you don't pretend you have missed it), many or even most of the phrases you change or remove are the result of, indeed, "an elaborate talk process", often an RFC, with many, many editors involved; what we call "consensus" in this place. And you think it's up to you alone to override the agreement they have arrived at, because you believe these editors have 'lost their independence of mind'. Seriously? I might expect that kind of argument from an inexperienced editor, but you're not that. Bishonen &#124; talk 16:20, 10 October 2018 (UTC).

Membland
Hello, I believe you did quite a bit of editing on article Membland in the past. I have been researching someone called Sir William Cresswell Gray, shipbuilder, and from 1900 until his death in 1924 he seems to have owned Membland, although he tried his hardest to sell it for 10+ years. See sample sales details from the period. The Membland Wiki article indicates that the property was still in the Baring family hands until 1916, and not being a local person I am not sure which story to take. Gray did sell off quite a section of the land in about 1916. Any thoughts? Sidpickle (talk) 17:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, that's useful information. Sadly I have moved on from that topic, I may come back to it later. I suggest you continue the research yourself, making sure you have reliable and published sources, and make the changes to the article yourself, stating your sources. From a quick google of the terms, it seems you are onto an undoubted fact. He seems to have named a ship Membland too in 1900, all interesting stuff, worthy of inclusion. Thanks for your contribution. Enjoy.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Good to hear from you. I will do a bit more research work on this and amend if I can get decent citations. Sidpickle (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Deleting infoboxes
Heads up that this edit of yours ("deleted infobox, adds nothing, map too vague & space consuming, all other info in lead") suggests a misreading of the purpose of infoboxes: they're explicitly meant to repeat information which is in the article, in a skimmable and machine-readable way. I agree that the map provided wasn't helpful, but in this case it's possible to switch to a map of Central London instead of Greater, which I've done. Your deleting the infobox also erased the article's geographic coordinates, which weren't listed anywhere else. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:23, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Infoboxes can be useful for complex subjects, for example biographies of monarchs, but often they seem to be used as status symbols: e.g. this article is about a nobleman, he must have an infobox. Same with buildings. Where all the info in the infobox is in the short lead of an article, like this one, I can't see any point in repeating it, but I'm not going to argue with you on this one. I did actually save the coords, in a footnote after Clink Street. The new map is certainly an improvement, thanks, but could be even more zoomed-in perhaps. It needs to show relationships to significant contemporary buildings: London Bridge, the City of London, Suffolk House, Strand, Palace of Westminster, Southwark Street (the main road to Canterbury & Dover, etc.). Apart from that all else is superfluous. Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:25, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

James Lynwood Palmer
Hello, I have enjoyed your entry on this artist so thank you. There is an image (photogragh) of James Lynwood Palmer held by The National Portrait Gallery, London. The image is available for commons use. It's available at a donation price. The photogragh identifies him by his full name of James Lynwood Palmer. I think the article could have the braket removed from James. I was able to add a further portrait of a St Leger winner by Palamer that I found on Wiki commons. This is added to the entry. Dorkinglad (talk) 14:59, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Further research at Family Search website on Lynwood lists Isabel Lydia Mohawk as his spouse. How long the marriage lasted is unknown. The name suggests to me she was of native American descent. To view this record I need to subscribe. Not sure I want to pay at this point. Dorkinglad (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Sir, Delighted to inform you that I now purchased for £20 a biography of Lynwood Palmer. It is mentioned in your article but you do not appeared to have used it. Hopefully it should answer questions about marriage(s) and his lfe abroad particularly in Canada and USA. Dorkinglad (talk) 16:09, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments, I think he was known as "Lynwood Palmer" and did not use the name "James". You are correct that I never saw a physical copy of the biography, hopefully you will be able to fill in any gaps or correct any errors from the sources I used. I hope the book clarifies the identity of his early American patrons, which is a point I found slightly confusing in the sources I found.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Eton College
I reverted your change to the caption of the photo of oarsmen at the Eton celebration. The photo is apparently not of one crew, but of members of a number of different crews. One of the crews involved, the Monarch, is not an eight but a ten. --David Biddulph (talk) 16:43, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, you are totally correct, I have slightly expanded the caption appropriately.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Knight of the Body
Hi, by a very circuitous route I came across this curious job description. I was born in Cirencester and lived in Fairford for some years, by the way. >MinorProphet (talk) 02:53, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

File source problem with File:SuttonSingleTun.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:SuttonSingleTun.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the page from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of the website's terms of use of its content. If the original copyright holder is a party unaffiliated with the website, that author should also be credited. Please add this information by editing the image description page.

If the necessary information is not added within the next seven days, the image will be deleted. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.

Please refer to the image use policy to learn what images you can or cannot upload on Wikipedia. Please also check any other files you have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is a [ list of your uploads]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 03:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Tottenham, Wiltshire
Hi Lobsterthermidor. I looked up Tottenham House to discover more about the house, and was redirected to Tottenham, Wiltshire, a redirect done by yourself in November 2015 after you added Descent of the estate and Sturmy's Horn / Savernake Horn sections. I think I see what you were doing - you had some information which in some way related to the house, and felt it would be best placed there, which then necessitated changing the name (and the scope) of the original article. However, I'm not seeing how the material sits comfortably in the article, especially as it obscures the original subject matter, and makes finding out information about the house somewhat confusing. It looks to me that almost all of the material you added belongs elsewhere, perhaps in a new article. A search of sources does confirm that Tottenham House is the notable subject. I am unsure if the house's estate has quite enough notability for a stand-alone article; however, the Seymour family does have notability, and indeed we do have an article on that family - Seymour family, to which the bulk of the material could be moved. The Savernake Horn material could possibly be moved to a stand-alone article as there are a few sources which describe it in detail.

Looking at the situation, my suggestion would be to create a Savernake Horn article and move the Sturmy's Horn / Savernake Horn there; merge the Seymour family details to the Seymour family article, and to restore Tottenham, Wiltshire to Tottenham House, keeping all relevant material from the existing article. What are your thoughts? SilkTork (talk) 12:13, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I have moved the material on the Seymour family into the Seymour family article. It will need editing to remove duplication and redundancy. I think you are best placed to do that. SilkTork (talk) 21:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The Grange
Hi

You've replaced the comment about Baring buying Buckenham Tofts but it has no bearing on the history of the Grange. If it has you need to expand on it, at the moment it is just an irrelevany aside. Your reference to Stratton Park is not applicable as that is a local property to the Grange and the new owner of of the latter was the son of the owner of the former so does have a bearing on the history.

That's my interpretation anyway. Regards Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:52, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, please see my response at Talk:The Grange, Northington.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
Hi could you help me with the Coat of Arms of the Peerage of Great Britain and the Peerage of the United Kingdom please?

Yours faithfully Mr Hall of England (talk) 18:17, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Great Britain (see the article) was created in 1707, the UK in 1801, so any title created before 1707 was in the peerage of England, if created after 1707 it was in the peerage of GB, if after 1801 in the peerage of the UK. Hope that helps.Lobsterthermidor (talk)

Thanks

I mean do you have any of the relevant Coat of Arms for those pages please? Mr Hall of England (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking coats of arms relate to families not to peerage titles, so the categories are probably invalid anyway.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:58, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Burials at Llanthony Priory, Wales


A tag has been placed on Category:Burials at Llanthony Priory, Wales requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Double-barrelled name
Please move your addition to the corresponding section "British tradition", because the lede is the summary of the article. If the current lede does not adequately summarize your adition, please add a brief sentence or two there.

And what is most important please supply your text with references to reliable sources, other wise your addition may be deleted at any time, per Wikipedia rules. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:12, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * {tps}} Lobster-Thermidor is a great double-barrelled name. Bishonen &#124; tålk 02:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC).

Category:Nabobs from Devon has been nominated for deletion
Category:Nabobs from Devon has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rathfelder (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

May 2020
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Charles II of England. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted. Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. As was explained to you multiple times before, e.g.none of the sources say Holford was a mistress. DrKay (talk) 19:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
 * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Charles II of England, you may be blocked from editing. DrKay (talk) 19:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
 * If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Your recent editing history at Charles II of England shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you don't violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. DrKay (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. DrKay (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Consider responding at WP:AN3. This looks to be an edit war that started in March and continued in May. You are risking a block for long-term edit warring. It doesn't seem you have ever posted about this at Talk:Charles II of England to get support for your change. EdJohnston (talk) 20:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have responded.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 09:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Manor of Scadbury
I'm not sure what happened on Manor of Scadbury when you created it recently, but most of the references are incomplete: Robertson, Lee, Robison, Metcalfe, etc. Can you fix them, please? —S MALL JIM   14:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Would a TPW ask Lobsterthermidor to do this, please? It's a perfectly reasonable request, but he's ignoring me. Ta! —S MALL JIM   11:50, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Update: the references were fixed by DrKay. Thanks! —S MALL  JIM   16:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ampersands in headings
I don't think anyone's ever specifically told you this, though I've mentioned it in several edit summaries over the years. You should not use ampersands in headings (e.g. "Marriage & issue", "Death & burial" etc.). See MOS:AMP. —S MALL JIM   22:15, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. —S MALL JIM   12:06, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well that was a wasted effort on my behalf - it expired without any action. Likewise the recent comments here: I knew RedRose64 wouldn't be interested in our altercation. But I think we both said some things that we needed to say there. So what do we do now? We both agree that it's a user conduct dispute (it's just whose conduct we don't agree on!), so looking at WP:DRR the options appear to be AN/I (again) or Arbitration. I doubt if Arbcom would accept a case because there has been insufficient input from the community or other admins. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to go through another AN/I report because it would undoubtedly heighten both our stress levels very probably to no avail again. So the alternatives seem to be (1) one of us leaves or stops - I don't think either of us is prepared to take that step, (2) we return to the unsatisfactory status quo, or (3) we both swallow our pride and start communicating like sensible adults, maybe with some ground rules that we can both agree. If you could see your way to replying to this in some sort of measured fashion, I think it would benefit both of us. If not, I'm at least glad that you've read it. —S MALL  JIM   19:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions
DrKay (talk) 11:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * DrKay, please follow WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civility. "self-evident crap", "deluded" "garbage", "even a mediocre scholar could find that out in seconds", "only delusional and ill-informed amateurs wouldn't even bother to do that" contravene those guidelines. You have been told multiple times to desist at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Notice of No Original Research Noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at No original research/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. (Though judging by recent performance, I don't expect I'll get any responses!) —S MALL  JIM   23:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Welcome back
... after your short break. Just a reminder of the remarks at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography. Fixing the issues (mid-name numerical identifiers) yourself would be looked upon favourably by the community. —S MALL JIM   10:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Ogwell
I'd note that "Ogwell" is a CP its self that appears to have been created from the merger of "East Ogwell" and "West Ogwell" so I'm not sure why you moved it. Its likely that all 3 should have articles.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 07:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that I have now created East Ogwell.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:57, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

July 2020
Hello, I'm Arthistorian1977. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Robert Hawthorn Kitson have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse. Thanks. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 10:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Smalljim MUTED
User:Smalljim has been MUTED from posting to this user page. Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Preston
You moved Preston, Cotswold to Preston, Cirencester which isn't compliant with WP:UKPLACE, Preston isn't in the town or parish of Cirencester but its a separate parish. Cotswold is sufficient in this case to disambiguate from the one in the Forest of Dean.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Bridport/Bronte Family
Hi Lobsterthermidor - just noticed that you have added/edited a huge amount of content on my family which I am thankful for as my father and I have learnt a lot from your posts. I would love to understand your interest in the Bronte Dukedom and where you got all the information from - there is some pretty granular detail in there especially on my father! I use wikipedia a lot but have never tried to contact a 'user' before, forgive me if this is not the correct way to approach you. I would very much like to be in touch, is there a way to contact you. Thanks! Peregrineh (talk) 10:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of List of Jewish organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of Jewish organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/List of Jewish organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. ImThe IP (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Edward Seymour, Lord Beauchamp
Dear Lobsterthermidor. I borrowed your way of indicating the title of an heir who never succeeded from your addition on the 22 November 2015 in the article Edward Seymour, Lord Beauchamp. In that article you give the subjects title as "Baron Beauchamp of Hatch (courtesy title)". I found this was a very good idea of yours and I imitated you in the article Thomas Butler, Viscount Thurles where I added an infobox and needed to indicate his title. Strangely enough, I found no other articles that follow the example given by you. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Glad you found it useful.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Your contributed article, List of Jewish organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups


Hello, I noticed that you recently created a new page, List of Jewish organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups. First, thank you for your contribution; Wikipedia relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as you. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page – List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will continue helping to improve Wikipedia. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups. If you have new information to add, you might want to discuss it at the article's talk page.

If you think the article you created should remain separate, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Wikipedia looks forward to your future contributions. DanielRigal (talk) 20:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Kings Langley
If one googles "Langley Reginae", it throws up precisely one relevant hit, which is to your recent edit of Kings Langley. Conversely "Langley Regina" provides numerous hits, including Munby (1963). The point here is that you must WP:STICKTOSOURCE and not make changes based on your own knowledge or research. I've been telling you this for years, yet you still persist. Much of what I wrote here in 2013 still applies. Please cite a top notch RS for "reginae" or correct it (it's not in VCH). —S MALL JIM   10:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)