User talk:Logicical Thinking

Endurance running hypothesis revision
Thank you for your interest!

1) The Endurance running hypothesis page must reference "persistence hunting" because it's an essential part of David Carrier's hypothesis.

2) When you say the authors [source 8, Pickering and Bunn] "specifically state that they didn't observe persistence running" they make a much more qualified statement — "… we have never observed persistence hunting by the Hadza…"

One of those authors (Bunn) says they observed a hunter walking a duiker to death (page 436) — "On a successful hunt in which HTB and a graduate assistant participated…"

Those authors don't say "they doubt human persistence hunting via running is a real thing" — they say "In fact, persistence hunting is actually quite rare ethnographically…" (page 435)

IsaacGouy (talk) 01:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I see I was not clear in stating that Pickering's statement that ER was not a thing was in reference specifically to "a thing as it relates to the ER evolutionary hypothesis" My apologies for the brevity and lack of clarity. Here's the longer explanation:
 * 1) The "persistence hunting" wiki page used to refer to only humans running down of prey. Persistence hunting and the Endurance Running Hypothesis used to be co-supporting pages with persistence running used to be referring to humans as persistent hunters and the Endurance Running Hypothesis building on that claiming that evolution was driven by early humans as persistent hunters.
 * But that persistence hunting page has since changed to include things like trapping, chasing with jeeps, and wild dogs chasing prey. Since the "persistence hunting" page no longer is about human endurance persistence running  hunting (HEPRH), then it's no longer a direct applicable reference. You can see the old page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persistence_hunting&oldid=196188858 where we can see it used to say
 * > "Persistence hunting is a type of hunting where the predator uses a combination of running and tracking to pursue the prey to exhaustion. Nowadays it is very rare among humans hunting animals, but it is seen in a few Kalahari bushmen. Persistence hunting requires endurance running - running many miles for extended periods of time. Among primates endurance running is only seen in humans and is thought to have evolved 2 million years ago. "
 * Why is that gone? Because it was later found that the documentary which stated that the Kalahari San did endurance running/hunting was found to be faked. They hunted from a jeep for a more exciting movie. The director admitted it. So the current "persistent hunting" page, having changed, is no longer applicable as supporting a citation to the Endurance Running Hypothesis quote that I removed which said
 * > and yet humans are capable distance runners, which seemed to be a paradox as some modern hunters apparently run prey animals to exhaustion
 * 2) The Endurance Running Hypothesis is about early humans and and a driving need causing an evolutionary change, not modern humans. So since the persistence hunting page no longer references the ER theory and instead now references those who chased down animals with jeeps and excess water. That persistence running page is no longer applicable as a source for that claim about running prey animals to exhaustion.
 * 3) Pickering et. al. were investigating that early human Endurance Running [ER] Hypothesis and rejected the running part as (p. 435)
 * > HTB’s observations among the Kua San suggest that hot dry-season hunting by walking, not ER
 * They looked at fresh meat hunting and savaging both as it relates to Endurance Running [ER] and write in the conclusion. ( p.437 )
 * > However, our understanding ... makes us dubious ... that ER might have been employed regularly and successfully in service of that foraging pursuit.
 * Hope that makes my comment clearer.
 * Thanks. Logicical Thinking (talk) 05:05, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) The "persistence hunting" page has changed since that 2008 revision because there's additional primary source material. The "persistence hunting" page refers to meanings that readers will find in that primary source material — humans chasing down prey.
 * You write "… changed to include things like … chasing with jeeps…" so let's remember the 2008 revision refers to Liebenberg's 2006 article which tells us "To speed up the process, the initial scanning for fresh tracks was done with a four-wheel-drive vehicle, but as soon as the animals were spotted the hunters left the vehicle and started the persistence hunt on foot." That is not something that changed.
 * (Liebenberg also tells us that he accompanied hunters on foot during two successful persistence hunts.)
 * 2) You write "So since the persistence hunting page no longer references the ER theory…"
 * The current "persistence hunting" page still does reference the ER hypothesis.
 * 3) The endurance running hypothesis premise must reference "persistence hunting" because it's an essential part of David Carrier's hypothesis. Pickering and Bunn do not refer to David Carrier's hypothesis.
 * IsaacGouy (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC)