User talk:LoneMore

Hector Munro of Novar
Hi, your additions to the Hector Munro of Novar article are welcome, but please provide some references for clarification. For all of the information that you have added, you have only added one reference, the article by Colin Munro. QuintusPetillius (talk) 12:42, 4 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi Quintus. I wondered if you would pick this up. Unfortunately the LRB didn't allow references to be included. The sources include ships logs, contemporary newspapers, EIC records, the Novar archive, and a birth certificate. I've added one or two key ones (please check format), but if you want to have a look at my much longer working document, you can find it on bit.ly/MunroAndtheTiger. There is also more about Hugh Munro at bit.ly/HughMunro1777. I sent copies of both documents to Hector at Foulis and asked if he could put them into Billy Munro's Novar folder in the Storehouse.
 * PS I have added a bit about George Munro, natural son of Sir Hugh 8th Bt. to the latter's page at the prompting of a descendant of George's daughter. The information was drawn from his will. I also added photos of his and his sister's shared tomb at West Norwood to Findagrave. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/182384962/mary-seymour-munro
 * Let me know if you'd like any copies of original documents. Anything you wish to share also welcome.
 * LoneMore (talk) 12:44, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

October 2018
Hello, I'm Zackmann08. Thank you for your recent contributions to Help John Munro, 9th of Teaninich. I noticed that when you added the image to the infobox, you added it as a thumbnail. In the future, please do not use thumbnails when adding images to an infobox (see WP:INFOBOXIMAGE). What does this mean? Well in the infobox, when you specify the image you wish to use, instead of doing it like this:

SomeImage.jpg

Instead just supply the name of the image. So in this case you can simply do:

SomeImage.jpg.

There will then be a separate parameter for the image caption such as Some image caption. Please note that this is a generic form message I am leaving on your page because you recently added a thumbnail to an infobox. The specific parameters for the image and caption may be different for the infobox you are using! Please consult the Template page for the infobox being used to see better documentation. Thanks!  Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 02:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Clan Munro
Hi, your edits to the Clan Munro article are welcome, but please can you add some reliable published sources to the Section about the DNA testing results. Its not that I disagree with what you have written, but Wikipedia rules are that any unsourced information can be removed and so to keep the article to a good standard any new info must be sourced. It could also be deleted under No original research if no sources are provided. Thanks.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * @QuintisPetillius. Fair enough, though the published stuff is mainly in clan magazines/flyers etc. which are less accessible than the DNA projects, and sufficient and indeed more up to date data are there to support the conclusions, if you can read them. However, I have put in a link to an article which appeared in the Clan Munro Australia which is available online, though somewhat out of date.


 * Incidentally you mention elsewhere the Munro of Lochfyneside family who were tenants of the Campbell chiefs in the 18th century. Genetically they are unrelated to the Munros of Foulis in the male line - they are group 4 in the project. Although their patrilineal kinship is of similar antiquity, it seems that they adopted the name Munro in the 17th C. when it became handy not to sound to Gaelic - before that they were McNorevichs or McInreochs. Again there are publications about this in Clan Magazines. Their closest male line relatives are called McCorkle who are of Northern Irish origin but one assumes the Loch Awe McCorquodales were somehow linked, being so near at hand. You are quite right to mention how sensitive folk are about the idea of descent from one clan or another. They are all genetically heterogeneous, and they always were. I gave a talk about this to the Neil Munro Society the other year (his mother was the Munro, of course, so not the same Y chromosome anyway) and a relative told me afterwards I had "upset her entire world view".

LoneMore (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for adding the references to the DNA section. Not only do Wikipedia rules state that everything should have a source, but if we keep the article this way then it stops people from adding whatever they please without good reason. I am aware that the Munros of Lochfyneside are not related to the Foulis Munros but the fact that the Campbell chiefs had a large family of Munros living on their lands could be an indication that they were on good terms with Munros in general, as another editor wanted to add the Clan Campbell to the list of allied clans of Clan Munro. However, my main reason for accepting the Campbells as an allied clan of the Clan Munro was that they were on the same side during the Jacobite risings of the 18th century. Apart from this the history of the Clan Campbell and Clan Munro is very little connected as they were in completely different parts of the Highlands. Hence I have added "(18th century)" where the Clan Campbell is listed as an ally of Clan Munro. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The Lochfyneside Munros anyway knew which side their bread was buttered, and went with the Campbells (literally sometimes) when the occasion arose. I doubt the Ross-shire lot took much interest in them until clanship became a romantic idea. Otherwise, as you say, allegiances came and went.

LoneMore (talk) 22:20, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Daniel Monroe and Monroe's of Iveagh
Hi again, in the Munro of Kiltearn article you have mentioned that Daniel Munroe, progenitor of the Monroes of Iveagh, was from the Munro of Kiltearn family and, you have quoted Monroe, H.G. (1929). Foulis Castle and the Monroes of Lower Iveagh (1st ed.), as one of the sources. However, this source states that Daniel Monroe was from the Munro of Obsdale family. See here:. You have quoted another source that I have yet to check out and if it is correct then it can be accepted, but there is some conflicting information in your sources here. Cheers. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry - was in a hurry earlier. Some more detail.

Yes - Horace Granville Monroe seems to have been in error. He says (p 21) "There followed the battle of Benburb, where General Robert Munro suffered defeat at the hands of O'Neill and retired to Carrickfergus. His brother, Major Daniel Monro, and his nephew, Colonel George Munro, who were with him in the field, joined the garrison at Coleraine.* Footnote “Ireland under the Stuarts," Bagwell, Vol. II p. 118. Reid's “History of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland," Vol. II., pp. 26-30." Both of these references mention Daniel Monro, but neither specifies a relationship, whereas they do point out Sir George (of Newmore, later Culrain) was a nephew of Robert Monro. I haven't seen any evidence that Robert Monro had a brother Daniel. References quoted by Horace in support from an account by Thomas Witherow in "Derry and Enniskillen in the year 1689" of the Siege of Derry refers to "Col. Monroe, nephew of Major General Monro", and another in a footnote (Reid, Vol II p 283 in the Archive.org copy I'm looking at) quoting a poem, refers to Robert's brother's son as having been present at the 1689 Siege of Derry in command of a regiment. Without investigating these they seem to me likely to be due to a confusion of Munros, and thus inconclusive.

The relevant account to counter Horace's genealogy is in the Foulis Writs, no 311. http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD93%2f311&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=&ko=a&r=GD93%2f311&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y This states in terms that John Munro (2nd) of Kiltearn was father of Hector who was father of Robert who was father of Donald/Daniel, who was father of Col. Henry of Rosehall. Writ no 302 tells the same story. Thereafter it is as far as I know as documented, and for that I quoted Horace Monroe.

Mackenzie hints that the Writs had been destroyed by George Munro, natural son of Sir Hugh 8th Bt or his sister Mary Seymour Munro, but they were in fact among George's papers and rediscovered in a tin box in his Glasgow solicitor's (Jamieson's) office in 1931. This was after the publication of Horace's book and a couple of years before he seems to have thrown himself into the English Channel from the Berengaria. The Writs were not published by the Scottish Records Society until 1940, so he was unable to correct his account. I only use his book to reference descent from Col. Henry, so I will clarify. I have added a reference to Foulis Writ no 311; it may be a while before I can get into a library to confirm the page number. R.W. Munro also cites this in the Munro Tree (M/71 p 18), appended. I don't know what was in the Ross-shire Journal and I think when I looked at his Notes & Queries reference the supposed merry dance didn't add anything. I omitted the reference to Kelly which seems to be irrelevant.

Incidentally, the Henry Munro (United Irishman) of Lisburn, hanged after the 1798 rebellion, is recorded by Horace as belonging to this family - he says (p 31) "[Hector son of Col. Henry] then married Mary Astell, whose son, born 1733, was father to the Henry Monroe who was executed at Lisburn in the rebellion of 1798". The given name of the rebel's father is not reported, so I didn't include the story. Perhaps I should. Other distinguished members of this family are in Wikipedia and in a couple of cases, including Horace's daughter, the DNB. Impressive.

Thanks for keeping things tidy. LM.

''From Munro Tree 1734 p 18: M/72: Hector's son Robert d Wittenberg 1631 (R Monro's Expedn ii 59), father of Major Donald or Daniel in Ireland, and grandfather of Col Henry Monro of Drumnascamph, Co Down, later of Roe's Hall or Rosehall there, who d 1727 (HGM 28, ancestry of this important Irish family corrected from FW 311 &c. by RWM in Ross-shire J1 5 Jan 1951); Col Henry was father of Daniel, Hector, Henry and Hugh (FW 305, & HGM). Hector whose wife was named in witchcraft allegations 1589 (RPC iv 392-3) also had dr Catherine who m John Munro writer who had Taychatt and other lands 1591 from Hector Munro of Foulis for legal services to the family but d intestate (FW 132, 136, 155), and another dr m George Q/14 son of Hector of Contulich and Kildermorie. Mackenzie 380 was misled by some copies of original MS misreading Henry as 'Kelly' (Teaninich 23 and Berthon 69, Culcairn copy has 'Hector') but added his own embellishment of his source which led to a merry dance in Notes & Queries 1950.''


 * Hi, thanks for explaining in so much detail, it's really useful. I am happy to accept the Foulis Writs as being more reliable than Horace Monroe. I will make the changes to the Munro of Obsdale article as well to clarify there. Cheers.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to confuse these 17th C. Irish matters further there’s a French branch of the Monroes who claim descent from one Ulysses Monroe, a Scottish noble of the house of Foulis, supposed to have had a son Owen Roe by an Irish lass in 1649, whose young sons Charles and Edmund (‘’Monroe dit Roe’’) later made their way to the Stuart court at St German en Laye. Their Monroe descendants are real enough historical figures, but Ulysses has never been satisfactorily identified. He seems to be a chimaera of Sir George of Newmore (in Ireland then with Robert Monro, and Daniel) and some adherent of their adversary Owen Roe O’Neill. Here’s an early account (in French): https://archive.org/details/biographieuniver28desp/page/651/mode/1up. Feel free to ignore it! LoneMore (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I would have read it but I cannot read French (I only learned German at school and I am not very proficient at that either). By the way I think it would be good to include the information about Henry Munro (United Irishman) of Lisburn who was hanged after the 1798 rebellion, even if Horace Monroe is the only source.QuintusPetillius (talk) 13:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

OK I'll do that. The account of Ulysses Monroe is based on one by Charles Dieudonnée Monroe in 1727, not long after the events described. I ran it through Google Translate for you and tweaked it a bit - the general sense is there. You'll see it corresponds initially in large part with the career of Sir George of Newmore, but the alliance with Owen Roe O'Neill and the portrayal of Ulysses and his offspring as Catholic Royalists are at variance with what we know of Sir George. There are other verifiable elements - for example the Earl of Carlingford was chief minister to the Duke of Lorraine. See https://www.clanmunro.org.uk/english.htm for the further adventures of these Monroes. Just thought it might amuse you.

MONROE (Ulysses), A Scottish nobleman of renowned valour and probity, who was noted for his devotion to the interests of Charles I in Scotland and Ireland. In 1648, the parliament of Scotland, wishing to protect the king from the hands of Cromwell, ordered the arming of 40,000 men and the recall of Monroe, who had already joined a considerable body of Scots with Owen O’Neill, general of the royalist party in Ireland. The command of the Scottish army was entrusted to the Duke of Hamilton. Arriving on the borders of England Hamilton ordered Monroe to stop in Westmorland, and went on to Lancashire with the troops whose command he had kept for himself - recklessness which had for the royal cause the most disastrous results. Attacked suddenly by Cromwell, near the town of Preston, the duke was reduced to giving himself up, he and his army, to the victor’s mercy. As a result of this shameful defeat, Monroe and the troops under his orders were recalled to Scotland, and the Earl of Lanark, despite already great doubts about the sincerity of his devotion, succeeded the Duke of Hamilton, his brother, in command of the Army. His magnificent promises having dispelled the prejudices that existed against him, most of the clan leaders and other royalist lords assembled in his army, which advanced on Edinburgh, where the Duke of Argyle, leader of the rebels, had gathered his supporters. Monroe, at the head of the vanguard composed of old Irish troops attacked the enemy at Musselburgh, killing a lot of men and putting the rest to flight. Encouraged by this first success, the Scots demanded to make good their advantage; but Lanark instead ordered a march on Stirling. Monroe resolved therefore thwart the ill-disguised intrigues of his general, or at least to expose them clearly to all eyes. The Scottish vanguard had hardly touched Wallace's tower, when without waiting for the rest of the army, the intrepid Monroe carried on with a handful of soldiers towards Stirling, where the Duke of Argyle had just flung himself with a reinforcement of 700 men. He (Monroe) made himself master of the place by the boldest stroke: the whole garrison was killed or taken prisoner, and Argyle himself barely escaped the pursuit of Monroe. From that moment there was no longer doubt about Lanark's intentions; that he thought only of making peace. This brave army, the last hope of the royalist party, was dismissed, and it was stipulated that Monroe and his Irish would be forced, under penalty of death, to leave Scotland. Monroe thus withdrew back to Ireland, where his efforts, and those of the Marquis of Ormonde and Montrose in Scotland delayed for some time the fall of the royalist party, already weakened by the death of General O'Neill. But the faction of Cromwell having finally fully prevailed, Monroe was outlawed, deprived of his name and his titles, and stripped of his possessions. The revolution of 1660, which restored Charles II to the throne of his ancestors, brought about by those who had previously followed Cromwell, brought little change to the situation of Catholic royalists. Ulysses Monroe had married Mary Brady, from an Ulster family; his elder son, called only Eugene Roe, married Catherine O'Reilly with whom he had two sons, Edmond and Charles. Edmond was bodyguard to King James II. During the revolution of 1688, which once again precipitated the Stuarts from the throne of England, Edmond declared in favor of the unhappy monarch; but ambushed by the supporters of the Prince of Orange, he was imprisoned in the Tower of London where he stayed for a long time time. Having managed to escape from his prison, he wandered for several years in the three kingdoms, and ended up taking refuge in Lorraine, where his brother Charles ceded him his place as an officer in the bodyguard of Duke Leopold. Charles, the younger of the brothers, was born in 1674 at the castle of Oldcastle, which his parents owned in County Meath, Ireland. While still young, he followed the fortunes of James II, whom he accompanied to France. When the peace of Ryswick had resulted in 1698 in the disbanding of Irish regiments, Charles Roe was summoned to Lorraine by the Earl of Carlingford, his compatriot, who had just taken possession of the Duchy, and who commanded there on behalf of the Duke Leopold. - Two of his grandsons, after having served with distinction in the imperial forces, reached the rank of general-major and died in 1801 and 1816.
 * Ah yes, Google translate, I use it often. Thanks for that. Archive.org says that the book was published in 1854. I have not heard of the authors, they appear to be French of course, so I am unable to judge on its reliability. There were history books being published earlier than that in Scotland, as early as the 1820's in fact, which could also be questionable as to their reliability on such issues. Does the book quote a source ? I seem to recall hearing that the information on the French Munros originates from a 17th century manuscript ? QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, the Clan Munro Association website states: "Family tradition (recorded in a manuscript of Charles Dieudonné Monroe written in 1727) tells us that he was a relative of the Chiefs of the Clan Munro".QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:07, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Charles Dieudonnée Monroe’s is the earliest account I know of. I’ve not seen the original text but I expect Durivier’s account in Michaud’s Biographies Universelle is taken directly from it. There is a “TESTAMENT D'ULYSSE MONROE Inverness, le jour de grâce du 31 mai 1650” - google it. You can do your own translation and draw your own conclusions.

If you’re interested I managed to obtain a hi-res color image of the Munro Tree of 1734 just before the National Records of Scotland went into lockdown (their ref. GD71/291). Big file. I had to track down the current Monro of Allan to get permission. LoneMore (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Munros of Culcairn and Sir Hugh Munro, 8th Baronet
Hi, we seem to have a common interest in the various Clan Munro associated articles. I am a member of the Scottish Association. I happen to have met one of the Munros who claims descent from the Munros of Culcairn and when I spoke to her last, although she did not have proof in the paper trail of the connection to that branch, apparently one of her proven male relatives has shown via Y-DNA testing to be a match to the Foulis Munros. Although not having proof in the paper trail there does also seem to be a lot of circumstantial evidence as well. Obviously we should not add things to Wikipedia without sources and naming living people is also not good, but I noticed that in the Munro of Culcairn article you said that the "claim remains proven". So I was just wondering if you knew anymore ? Also, regarding Sir Hugh Munro, 8th Baronet, I think I have met direct male line Munro descendants of him as well. They own an upholstery shop on a road called Kirkdale in the Sydenham part of south-London, which is where Sir Hugh, 8th Baronet moved to, and not far from where I live. Cheers.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Mmm, that lady. Interesting - I meant unproven of course; there are thousands of men who match the basic DNA pattern, but at least it doesn’t disprove a good story. Interesting too about more of Sir Hugh’s descendants in S. London. I don’t think I saw any more than 3 natural offspring in his will (n.b. free downloads from National Archives during closure). On the other hand, Mackenzie may not have known everything but didn’t record all he knew either. For example he must have known all about the senior (albeit not officially acknowledged) grandson of Sir Charles, whose male descendants, still living in S. London, are sensibly not bothered by this nonsense.

I think you would like to see the hi-res. Munro Tree but please don’t share further or publish: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j95h5hoh12asfvg/GD71_291%20Color.jpg?dl=0

PS Dulwich? LoneMore (talk) 21:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the hi-res Munro Tree it is incredible. I had previously only seen a small photo of it in R.W Munro's book at the British Library over a decade ago now. The Munros in Sydenham, London is an interesting one. I was walking past their "Munro Upholstery" shop one day and decided to introduce myself. The shop owner is called Robert Munro (which is a name used a lot in the chief's family and his closest supposed ancestor of that name would be the 6th Baronet killed at Falkirk in 1746) and he explained that he, his family and sons are descended from the "chief" called Hugh Munro who came to live in the area centuries ago, but that his Dad knew more about it than he did. He is a proper working-class cockney. I don't live in Dulwich, but I did live in Forest Hill for about seven years which is just down the road from Dulwich and now I live in a place called Anerley. Just looking at the hi-res image of the Munro Tree, it seems to say that George Munro (10th Baron) was "killed at Bealach na Broige" and although this is a well known tradition, I am sure that in R.W Munro's book he states that the tree does not say that George was killed at that battle. I will have to get that book again and check what he said. Cheers. QuintusPetillius (talk) 15:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

- Thought you'd like it, but FYEO. - Dads always do - except family stories are often wrong. Sir Hugh's son George also put it about a bit. It's certainly plausible, though Roberts and Hughs are ten a penny among Munros of most cadet families. Easy to check for a few quid with a mouth swab from Dad: YSeq.net Y12073 (9th baron) and if +ve A11984 (14th baron). Or the Americans would probably test free if you sell them the story. But why risk spoiling a good story if it might turn out negative? - There was a reason for asking about Dulwich. You're still not too far from Sir Hugh's son and daughter George and Mary Seymour Munro's sarcophagus in West Norwood Cemetery, then, or even Sir Charles's son Harry in Nunhead with his (legal) wife Julia (take a machete). I don't know why so many Munros seem to gravitate to South London - I did my London time North of the river. - Billy's gloss says "George of Foulis is found on record 1437 x 1449 (charters cited OPS ii 534) and was dead by 1453 (FW 19) which accords with dating of Bealach nam Broig in 1452 (CMM xi 27)" but the last source quoted is an extended discussion of whether that battle happened and when and which Munro was involved. You can get your own electronic copy of the Munro Tree book from Ian Munro the webmaster, and also all of Billy's files as spreadsheets. The American clan association will sell you a disc with all but the most recent clan magazines (page by page, need to reassemble) with an index to all of them. SS : LM
 * thanks for the hi-res Munro Tree it is incredible.
 * The shop owner is called Robert Munro .. but that his Dad knew more about it than he did.
 * I don't live in Dulwich, but ... now I live in a place called Anerley.
 * it seems to say that George Munro (10th Baron) was "killed at Bealach na Broige"
 * Ah, but there is another mention of this on R.W Munro's book I think, on page. v. I am sure it has a few lines about how the original tree itself mentions that other chiefs were killed at other battles but that the original tree does not mention George being killed at Bealach in 1452. QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

"We learn, for instance, of Munro chiefs said to have fallen at Bannockburn and Halidon Hill in 1314 and 1333 (for whom historical evidence is lacking), but nothing of the two or three gentlemen of the name who (according to a MacDonald annalist) were slain at the battle of Harlaw in 1411 ;48 the skirmish at Bealach ham Broig is mentioned (M), but not the often repeated tradition that there fell 'eleven Munros of the house of Foulis that were to succeed one another, so that the succession fell to a child lying in the cradle',49 nor the more specific Mackenzie statement that the chief's three sons as well as himself were killed;50 and only two of the thirteen Munros said to have perished in the fight after a Candlemas market at Logiebride in 1597 are identified.51" But the article in CMM treats it all at greater length.

NB the family of the lady mentioned had many Roberts and/or Hughs, who were in the furniture trade, albeit in Hackney. They predate Sir Hugh, but it could be a distorted version of her theory. LoneMore (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well I seem to have had a distorted version of R.W Munro's book, your above paragraph clarifies what it actually says. Thanks. *Dads always do - actually my Dad didn't know more than me about our Munro ancestry, he wasn't that interested in it, some people aren't. I am aware of the above mentioned Munro graves in south-London, but I have no real interest in visiting them, maybe someone could photograph them for the Wikipedia articles but I don't think it is all that necessary. I am not descended from the Foulis Munros, but despite initial disappointment from the Y-DNA test results I am no longer bothered; history speaks for itself; Munro of Foulis couldn't handle himself. I do however have a very keen interest in the history of the clan and in fact all Scottish clans in general.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe that was a bit harsh. What I meant is that while I will always have the up-most respect for people who go into battle, I am glad that not being paternally descended from the Munros of Foulis I do not have to know that I am descended from a long line of people who have been slain in hand-to-hand combat. Its very sad and they were very brave people but it must be awful knowing that that happened to your ancestors. QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:22, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I expect the Highland Chiefs were much of a muchness - goes with the territory, literally - and they were expected to muster and lead into battle in the name of allegiance or alliance and so not a few of them were killed on the process. (Sir Robert 6th baronet’s portraits don’t show that by Falkirk in 1746 he’d got too fat to run away.) And you can’t get away that easily either, as anyone with Highland ancestry is equally related to everyone else not many centuries ago. However given that one has so little common with one’s immediate relatives, you can’t expect the 1.5% of DNA in the Y-chromosome to contribute much. Sir Charles was an pompous braggart, Sir Hector of Novar an insensitive bastard but his brother Alexander an able diplomat, and Col. John of Teaninich a decent man of evangelical principles (probably why he got up the nose of his fellow officers in Madras) unlike his litigious brother Murdo Mackenzie. There are plenty more stories it would be great, but not politic, to share.

I was amused to see the upholstery firm making such prominent use of the clan devices and tartan (another piece of nonsense). Incidentally Sir Hector of Novar had a son Hugh who had a natural son by a lady from Battersea about 1805-8, so there’s another candidate Hugh with links to South London. LoneMore (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I suppose as the story goes when Sir Robert, 6th Baronet was surrounded by the seven Jacobites at Falkirk he did manage to kill two of them before they killed him so he could clearly hold his own and he was in a very unfair fight. Yes, the great Hector Munro of Novar who had 20 Sepoys executed by blowing them off the end of canons. That was the order of the day I suppose. I was pleased to see that they have the Munro eagle/emblem in the upholstery shop being so far from Scotland as you don't normally see those clan things in England. You seem to know a huge amount about the various prominent clan members and have gone beyond the usual published sources that are available and checked contemporary records. Well done for that. QuintusPetillius (talk) 10:34, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks - the Barnstar concept is new to me but then I am not a regular Wikipedia user. I am just tidying up; while Mackenzie's account is a good start it's full of confusions, which Billy Munro worked hard to clear up. His database is a good source of evidenced corrections if you get hold of it. A lot of errors are still being propagated - I went to a book launch by William Dalrymple last year and had to correct him on a couple of points relating to Sir Hector (and it was 24 or maybe 25 sepoys). And who knows what actually happened at Falkirk? While Mackenzie perforce emphasises the military side, I've come across a lot of good stories of very different kinds following the adventures of the Foulis Y chromosome, such as the Chess Murder Mystery, in which a bearer was the solicitor for William Herbert Wallace. Another bearer, a distant relative of President James Monroe (great-grandson of a proven bearer) was more recently himself convicted of murder. James Monroe's relatives, though, also include Bill Monroe. And of course you know that George Monro, who appears in the Last of the Mohicans and more recently Assassin's Creed Rogue was a cousin of Alexander Monro (primus). Not all famous Munros were part of this line, even if they thought they were, and some we don't know like Burt Munro or even Sir Thomas. It's a shame one can't include everything one does know. Anyway, I am sure you will keep an eye on the clan. Let me know if you think I can help with anything. BW SS LM
 * Well, Hector Munro of Novar may well have been a bad man for doing that to the Sepoys and you will probably have heard the stories of Munro of Milntown burying people alive including an old woman, and piles of bones being found when the ruins of their castle were excavated in the 19th century. As it happens I think I am descended from a very bad man named Munro. I must stress that I have not totally 100% confirmed it but unfortunately it is looking highly likely that it is the same person who was my ancestor. In 1780 he committed a horrendous crime which he really should have been executed for but because he had friends in high places he escaped with his life. The dilemma I am left with is that if they had executed him like they should have done then none of my subsequent Munro ancestors or me would have ever existed. He was given a second chance in life. Its quite a story that I can't go into here. I will let you know if there is anything you can help with but I do not currently have any plans for any more Clan Munro related articles. I think all the prominent and important Munro people in history have been covered already. I am however particularly pleased with some of the battle articles that I have improved. I have tried to stick to only adding information found in the sources; mostly 19th or early 20th century books found on the Internet Archive and also some encyclopedias that I have at home: Notably: Battle of the North Inch, Battle of Daltullich, Battle of Glenboultachan, Battle of the Western Isles, Battle of Dryfe Sands, Battle of Glenlivet, Battle of Glen Fruin, Battle of Carbisdale, Battle of Altimarlach and Battle of Mulroy. Although Mulroy was not the best one I have done in my opinion, it did meet the criteria to be included on the "Did you know" section of the Wikipedia main page which I was quite pleased with. Cheers.QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

‘’I was walking past their "Munro Upholstery" shop one day and decided to introduce myself. The shop owner is called Robert Munro (which is a name used a lot in the chief's family and his closest supposed ancestor of that name would be the 6th Baronet killed at Falkirk in 1746) and he explained that he, his family and sons are descended from the "chief" called Hugh Munro who came to live in the area centuries ago, but that his Dad knew more about it than he did.’’ We’ve just found some more “SNPs”, unique genetic markers, of the chiefly line (thanks to some Chilean Munros), which are available for cheap tests, I have some test kits in hand. If this chap (or better his father) is interested in exploring a link to Sir Hugh he could contact me via Margaret Bardin of the DNA project. LoneMore (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Munro Tree 1734
Hi, I was just wondering if you knew whether or not the actual Munro Tree of 1734 had been lost and then rediscovered at some point, much like the Fowlis Writs ? Regards.QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:21, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi

The original, as I think, was among the Monro of Allan papers which were are in the care of the National Records of Scotland, where I have seen it, but I had to get permission to reproduce it for an article from the current Monro of Allan. It does not seem to have belonged to Foulis. I am not aware that it went missing.

However, in his introduction, Billy Munro does discuss the possibilty that it was based on an earlier chronicle, now missing: “There are only a few stray hints that a Munro chronicle may have existed, or perhaps at least one relating to an important and senior branch. Graphic phrases describing two successive Monros of Milntown in the 15th century occur somewhat unexpectedly in the text which follows (see L/I & L/2 below); and it may not be a coincidence that the son of the second of these men was the writer of one of the three sources on which Mackintosh of Kinrara based his own manuscript. [George Munro of Dochcarty (L/4) is said to have narrated the history of three Mackintosh chiefs and of Clan Chattan from 1496 to 1524 (Mackintosh of Kinrara as above, p 148); he died in 1576.] Another indication to the same effect may be that a document of 1661 was said by the parish minister of Kiltearn, when he quoted it 130 years later, to be from 'an old record' which gave a 'character' of Sir John Munro of Foulis, and has now disappeared. [Rev. Harry Robertson in Statistical Account of Scotland, ed. Sir John Sinclair, i 267 (1791).]

Here’s what Billy Munro says are the extant versions: From internal evidence (L/32, L/84, L/91, Y/I) it can be stated with confidence that the original was compiled in 1734. No correspondence seems to have survived to show its purpose or its authorship, but it has sometimes been known as the 'Allan tree' from its former owners. The parchment was in the possession of the late Major C.L.D. Monro of Allan (1868-1944), and after the death of his widow in 1950 it was deposited with other papers of that family in the Scottish Record Office in H.M. General Register House, Edinburgh. One of Major Monro's predecessors (an uncle of his great-grandfather) was David Monro of Allan L/100), Writer to the Signet, who acted in a legal capacity for the family of Foulis and had some of the papers in his custody at his death in 1767. The MS shows a wide knowledge of most of the branches of the main stem still extant in 1734, and a few exact dates suggest access also to some written evidence; and it seems likely that David may have arranged for, if he did not actually compile, the genealogy, perhaps for the information of Sir Robert Munro of Foulis (the Chief who was killed at Falkirk in 1746). The following versions of the MS have been studied in an effort to arrive at as correct and complete a text as possible:-

(a) The Original. In Monro of Allan Papers (1487-1909), Scottish Record Office ref. GD 71, no 291. (Consulted by courtesy of David W. Monro of Allan and the Keeper of the Records of Scotland). There is a photographic copy made in 1951 at Foulis Castle, and a photograph on reduced scale reproduced in Clan Munro Magazine, vii 41, appears as a frontispiece to this book. (b) Culcairn copy. Mounted on cloth, 35 ins x 41 ins, with coloured sketch of Foulis Castle and arms of Munro of Foulis. Many of the entries are considerably abridged, and difficult passages omitted. Below the title are the words 'Originally written by some person unknown in 1734 and now brought down to AD 1840', and the copy is inscribed 'to Miss Munro of Culcairn'. (Consulted by courtesy of the late Lieut. - Colonel G.D.N. Ross of Cromarty, whose great-grandfather married the heiress of Culcairn). (c) Teaninich copy. MS of 62 foolscap pages, not in form of a tree, order often confused, with several entries repeated and others omitted. The copyist was apparently unfamiliar with the subject or did not copy from the original, but includes at least one entry (Q/24) now illegible in it. This was probably the copy used by Alexander Ross in compiling his Munro genealogies (see CMM v 15-16), as he refers to a 'MS history of the Munros' owned by Stuart C. Munro of Teaninich in 1885 (Celtic Mag. x 233), although he wrongly supposed it to have been written about 1712 (ib. x 49). (Consulted by courtesy of the late Captain A. S. J. Munro-Spencer of Teaninich). (d) Berthon copy. A neatly-written black covered MS notebook of 157 written pages and index, entitled: 'A Genealogical Account of the Munros of Fowlis and some of the Families which sprung from them copied from a manuscript in the possession of the late Mr John Munro Factor of Fowlis [died 1861] and which he copied from the original in the possession of D. Monro, Esq., of Allan [suc. 1818, died 1893]. With a few additions (from a Genealogical account of that family published in Inverness in 1805, also from Dr Hew Scott's Fasti Ecc. Scot. & The Origines Parochiales Scotiae) written in 1865 and 1883 by the Revd. Gustavus Aird [D.D., died 1898] F.C. Minister, Creich, Sutherlandshire. With further additions underlined in red ink by Raymond Tinne Berthon.' The death of David Monro of Allan in 1893 is recorded, but all lines (e.g. Foulis) are not brought down to that date. Mr Berthon (1868-1944), an industrious genealogist who traced his descent from a daughter of Sir John Munro of Foulis, corresponded with Sir Hector about his family. (Consulted by courtesy of Captain Patrick Munro of Foulis). (e) Foulis copy. Coloured family tree with Munro of Foulis arms in corner, compiled apparently about 1900 by Mrs Athelstan Coode of the Fyrish branch (Mackenzie's Munros 455), and preserved at Foulis Castle. Based on the original or a copy, with the main stem and some of the branches (e.g. Fyrish) brought down to date. (Consulted by courtesy of Captain Patrick Munro of Foulis).

BW LoneMore (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks for such a detailed reply. I have recently been looking at Clan Munro Magazines in the British Library and was comparing some of R.W Munro's research from the 1960s compared with that in his book The Munro Tree 1734 from 1978. Regards, QuintusPetillius (talk) 11:12, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

It was just a copy and paste, but if you’ve seen the book you know as much as I do. You can get scans of all but the most recent magazines, and an index, from Clan Munro USA for about $10. I think I got them from Charles C Monroe III, but I’m not sure who on the committee now handles these. If you have a specific question I can look. LoneMore (talk) 21:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC)