User talk:Lord Emsworth/Archive 2

Direct Descendents
A genealogical question for you. A search reveals that the expression "direct descendant" appears 161 times in Wikipedia articles. This expression has always annoyed me. One is either descended from a person or one is not. When I see Elizabeth II, for example, described as a direct descendant of George I, what does that mean? Nothing as far as I can see. I think people sometimes use the expression to mean "descendant in the male line," but if that is what they mean they should say so. (And Elizabeth II is not of course a descendant in the male line of George I). I am tempted to go through all 161 articles and remove this expression. What do you think? Adam 08:19, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sophie, Countess of Wessex
Regarding the move to Sophie, Countess of Wessex, there are pages and pages of discussion about the naming of that article on the talk page, so you might want to browse it (if you haven't already) and at least leave a note. (My personal opinion is that the "the" is inconsistent with Wikipedia conventions and so your title is better and the Earl's office can say what they want, only perhaps Sophie Rhys-Jones, Countess of Wessex would be even better. But I'm not an expert on anything British really, and I don't say this to express my opinion, just to point out that there is a discussion.)

And I would like to say I'm impressed by all your work on British nobility titles. Keep it up. -- Jao 23:14, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wikibooks
Just letting you know you're now a sysop over at wikibooks. Pakaran. 03:26, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your OMA membership
Greetings Your Lordship!, and welcome to the Office of Members' Advocates. As the de-facto interim coordinator I've added a link to your talk page on the talk page of the association; if you want to add any more contact information that you feel comfortable with please do so. I've started writing a few other pages and if you want to contribute to any of those pages or do some editing that would be great. Once we have a few more members we might try to have a membership meeting to discuss how we might act as a group or help each other with our new-found volunteer role. Your humble and obedient servant, always... [[User:Alex756|&#8212; Alex756 talk]] 04:13, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Featured article candidates
Are you going to be long at FAC? I'll wait and let you finish cleaning up before going back to archiving the old discussions. Just let me know when you're done, ok? Thanks, Gentgeen 17:14, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I didn't like that new section either, it was good to remove it.  Back to work for me. Gentgeen

Peerage Article
Hey, just wanted to say that your rewrite of Peerage is excellent. Good work, as always. john 00:17, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I second that. Simply wonderful. Mackensen 00:58, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Political correctness
How on earth did this get to be a featured article? It still has a dipute header, for crissakes. I'm not saying its not featured article material (heck, I've pretty well overhauled the page) but it seems bad form to have both a featured article AND a dispute header, eh? Sam Spade 23:00, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * To be honest I'm much more distressed over Libertarian Socialism, which I actually want removed. I'm not real clear on how the removal process works tho, so I made a catagory on the bottom of the Featured article candidates page for just that purpose. Sam Spade 23:09, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Featured Articles
My Lord: Since you have been good enough to list Oxyrhynchus as a featured article, you might to look at my other archaeological and ancient historical articles (an area which I think is lacking at Featured Articles at present), such as Winged Victory of Samothrace, Temple of Hephaestus, Temple of Olympian Zeus, Harmodius and Aristogeiton and Laocoon and his Sons, and my rewrite of Parthenon. I think some of these are at least as interesting as Oxyrhynchus. Regards, Adam 01:56, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. I fear that would look rather immodest. Adam 02:03, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If any of the above articles strike you as having sufficient merit for you to second them, I will nominate them. Adam 02:07, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tables on Peerage
Hmm. I see the "float:right", but it doesn't actually /do/ anything, here at least (which is why I removed it). The current formatting is fine, IMO, though. James F. (talk) 03:54, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Lists of Peers
Lord Emsworth,

The current lists of peers by precedence (List of Barons in order of precedence etc) list all the peers whose highest title is at that grade, but that isn't what the pages themselves say they do, as the text at the top says that they are lists of all Barons, all Viscounts, etc. I only noticed this yesterday when I saw that Chrism had added Viscount Prestwood (the second title of the Earl Attlee) to the list of Viscounts, a perfectly understandable thing to do, given how the page presents itself.

It would seem to me that the page at the moment, with the emphasis on precedence, should stay as it is (with a clarification at the top that it isn't actually all Viscounts), but I can definitely see how a list of all peerages at a certain grade could be a nice thing to have. I was wondering what your opinions were on this, and whether you think it would be a worthwhile task for us to try to compile such lists. I have asked John Kenney for his opinion too, so hopefully we could come to some kind of consensus as to what the lists should do.

Proteus 13:35, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that, I hadn't realised it was set up that way, and wanted to display my 'geeky' knowledge that Earl Attlee is also Viscount Prestwood, a factoid that I've had very little use of until yesterday. - Chrism 20:32, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I used that website as the basis of my own list of peers (which I drew up about a year ago), but it is extremely out of date. The Dukes, Marquesses and Earls are mainly okay (although there are a couple missing, like the Earl of Huntingdon, I seem to recall, amongst others), but the Viscounts and Barons are very inaccurate, with many missed out and lots of extinct titles still listed. I have just seen Leigh Rayment's Peerage Page (which you told John about) and it looks very comprehensive. Are you aware of how accurate that is? It could form the basis of a complete list, if it is good. Proteus 14:36, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Excellent. In that case, I would propose that we use that as the basis for a list, and make it a list of currently extant peerages, ignoring abeyant and dormant ones (in some cases it's unclear exactly what they are, so it's easiest and clearest to list only those peerages currently held by someone). As for the recent deaths, we could use the monthly "aristocratic deaths" threads in alt.talk.royalty to keep track of them. Proteus 14:56, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dukes' eldest sons (and grandsons) use the following courtesy titles:

john 23:36, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Duke of Norfolk/Earl of Arundel and Surrey/not sure
 * Duke of Somerset/Baron Seymour/none
 * Duke of Richmond and Gordon/Earl of March(, Darnley and Kinrara)/Baron Settrington
 * Duke of Grafton/Earl of Euston/Viscount Ipswich
 * Duke of Beaufort/Marquess of Worcester/Earl of Glamorgan (the latter a title not actually held)
 * Duke of St Albans/Earl of Burford/Baron Hedington
 * Duke of Bedford/Marquess of Tavistock/Baron Howland
 * Duke of Devonshire/Marquess of Hartington/Earl of Burlington
 * Duke of Marlborough/Marquess of Blandford/Earl of Sunderland
 * Duke of Rutland/Marquess of Granby/not sure
 * Duke of Hamilton and Brandon/Marquess of Douglas and Clydesdale/not sure
 * Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry/Earl of Dalkeith/Lord Eskdaill
 * Duke of Argyll/Marquess of Kintyre and Lorne (usually called Marquess of Lorne)/Earl of Campbell and Cowall
 * Duke of Atholl/Marquess of Tullibardine/Earl of Strathtay and Strathardle
 * Duke of Montrose/Marquess of Graham and Buchanan/not sure
 * Duke of Roxburghe/Marquess of Bowmont and Cessford/not sure
 * Duke of Manchester/Viscount Mandeville/none
 * Duke of Northumberland/Earl Percy/not sure
 * Duke of Leinster/Marquess of Kildare/Earl of Offaly
 * Duke of Wellington/Marquess of Douro/Earl of Mornington
 * Duke of Sutherland/Marquess of Stafford/probably Earl Gower, but could be Earl of Ellesmere now
 * Duke of Abercorn/Marquess of Hamilton/not sure
 * Duke of Westminster/Earl Grosvenor/Viscount Belgrave
 * Duke of Fife/Earl of Southesk/Lord Carnegie

This is my list, and I think it's pretty accurate, but there are probably some mistakes:

Dukes - Peerage of England
 * Duke of Norfolk (Earl of Arundel and Surrey, Lord Maltravers)
 * Duke of Somerset (Lord Seymour)
 * Duke of Richmond and Gordon (Earl of March and Kinrara, Lord Settrington)
 * Duke of Grafton (Earl of Euston, Viscount Ipswich)
 * Duke of Beaufort (Marquess of Worcester, Earl of Glamorgan, Viscount Grosmont)
 * Duke of Saint Albans (Earl of Burford, Lord Vere of Hanworth)
 * Duke of Bedford (Marquess of Tavistock, Lord Howland)
 * Duke of Devonshire (Marquess of Hartington, Earl of Burlington, Lord Cavendish of Hardwick)
 * Duke of Marlborough (Marquess of Blandford, Earl of Sunderland, Lord Churchill of Sandridge)
 * Duke of Rutland (Marquess of Granby, Lord Manners of Haddon)

Dukes - Peerage of Scotland
 * Duke of Hamilton and Brandon (Marquess of Douglas and Clydesdale, Earl of Angus, Lord Abernethy)
 * Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Earl of Dalkeith, Lord Eskdale)
 * Duke of Argyll (Marquess of Lorne and Kintyre, Earl of Campbell and Cowall, Viscount Lochow)
 * Duke of Atholl (Marquess of Tullibardine, Earl of Strathtay and Strathardle, Viscount Balquhidder)
 * Duke of Montrose (Marquess of Graham and Buchanan, Earl of Kincardine, Viscount Dundaff)
 * Duke of Roxburghe (Marquess of Bowmont and Cessford, Earl of Kelso, Viscount Broxmouth)

Dukes - Peerage of Great Britain
 * Duke of Manchester (Viscount Mandeville)
 * Duke of Northumberland (Earl Percy, Lord Lovaine)

Dukes - Peerage of Ireland
 * Duke of Leinster (Marquess of Kildare, Earl of Offaly, Viscount Leinster of Taplow)
 * Duke of Abercorn (Marquess of Hamilton, Viscount Strabane)

Dukes - Peerage of the United Kingdom
 * Duke of Wellington (Marquess Douro, Earl of Mornington, Viscount Wellesley)
 * Duke of Sutherland (Marquess of Stafford, Earl Gower, Viscount Trentham)
 * Duke of Westminster (Earl Grosvenor, Viscount Belgrave)
 * Duke of Fife (Earl of Southesk, Lord Carnegie)
 * Duke of Gloucester (Earl of Ulster, Lord Culloden)
 * Duke of Kent (Earl of Saint Andrews, Lord Downpatrick)
 * Duke of Edinburgh (Earl of Merioneth, Lord Greenwich)
 * Duke of York (Earl of Inverness, Lord Killyleagh)

Marquess - Peerage of England
 * Marquess of Winchester (Earl of Wiltshire, Lord Saint John)

Marquesses - Peerage of Scotland
 * Marquess of Huntly (Earl of Aboyne, Lord Strathavon and Glenlivet)
 * Marquess of Queensberry (Viscount Drumlanrig)
 * Marquess of Tweeddale (Earl of Gifford, Viscount Walden)
 * Marquess of Lothian (Earl of Ancram, Viscount Briene)

Marquesses - Peerage of Great Britain
 * Marquess of Lansdowne (Earl of Kerry/Earl of Shelburne, Viscount Clanmaurice)
 * Marquess Townshend (Viscount Raynham)
 * Marquess of Salisbury (Viscount Cranborne)
 * Marquess of Bath (Viscount Weymouth)
 * Marquess of Hertford (Earl of Yarmouth, Viscount Beauchamp)
 * Marquess of Bute (Earl of Dumfries, Viscount Mountjoy)

Marquesses - Peerage of Ireland
 * Marquess of Waterford (Earl of Tyrone, Lord Beresford)
 * Marquess of Downshire (Earl of Hillsborough, Viscount Kilwarlin)
 * Marquess of Donegall (Earl of Belfast, Viscount Chichester)
 * Marquess of Headfort (Earl of Bective, Lord Kenlis)
 * Marquess of Sligo (Earl of Altamont, Viscount Westport)
 * Marquess of Ely (Viscount Loftus)
 * Marquess Conyngham (Earl of Mount Charles, Viscount Slane)
 * Marquess of Londonderry (Viscount Castlereagh)

Marquesses - Peerage of the United Kingdom
 * Marquess of Exeter (Lord Burghley)
 * Marquess of Northampton (Earl Compton, Lord Wilmington)
 * Marquess Camden (Earl of Brecknock, Viscount Bayham)
 * Marquess of Anglesey (Earl of Uxbridge, Lord Paget)
 * Marquess of Cholmondeley (Earl of Rocksavage, Viscount Malpas)
 * Marquess of Ailesbury (Earl of Cardigan, Viscount Savernake)
 * Marquess of Bristol (Earl Jermyn, Lord Hervey of Ickworth)
 * Marquess of Ailsa (Earl of Cassilis, Lord Kennedy)
 * Marquess of Normanby (Earl of Mulgrave, Lord Phipps)
 * Marquess of Abergavenny (Earl of Lewes, Viscount Nevill)
 * Marquess of Zetland (Earl of Ronaldshay, Lord Dundas)
 * Marquess of Linlithgow (Earl of Hopetoun, Viscount Aithrie)
 * Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair (Earl of Haddo, Viscount Formartine)
 * Marquess of Milford Haven (Earl of Medina, Viscount Alderney)
 * Marquess of Reading (Viscount Erleigh)

Earls - Peerage of England
 * Earl of Shrewsbury (Viscount Ingestre)
 * Earl of Derby (Lord Stanley)
 * Earl of Huntingdon (Viscount Hastings)
 * Earl of Devon (Lord Courtenay)
 * Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery (Lord Herbert)
 * Earl of Lincoln (none)
 * Earl of Suffolk and Berkshire (Viscount Andover)
 * Earl of Denbigh and Desmond (Viscount Feilding)
 * Earl of Westmorland (Lord Burghersh)
 * Earl of Lindsey and Abingdon (Lord Norreys)
 * Earl of Winchilsea and Nottingham (Viscount Maidstone)
 * Earl of Sandwich (Viscount Hinchingbrooke)
 * Earl of Essex (Viscount Malden)
 * Earl of Carlisle (Viscount Morpeth)
 * Earl of Shaftesbury (Lord Ashley)
 * Earl of Portland (Viscount Woodstock)
 * Earl of Scarbrough (Viscount Lumley)
 * Earl of Albemarle (Viscount Bury)
 * Earl of Coventry (Viscount Deerhurst)
 * Earl of Jersey (Viscount Villiers/Viscount Grandison)

Earls and Countesses - Peerage of Scotland
 * Countess of Mar (Lord Garioch)
 * Countess of Sutherland (Lord Strathnaver)
 * Earl of Crawford and Balcarres (Lord Lindsay)
 * Earl of Mar and Kellie (Viscount Fentoun)
 * Earl of Erroll (Lord Hay)
 * Earl of Caithness (Lord Berriedale)
 * Earl of Rothes (Lord Leslie)
 * Earl of Morton (Lord Aberdour)
 * Earl of Buchan (Lord Cardross)
 * Earl of Eglinton and Winton (Lord Montgomerie)
 * Earl of Moray (Lord Doune)
 * Earl of Home (Lord Dunglass)
 * Earl of Perth (Viscount Strathallan)
 * Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (Lord Glamis)
 * Earl of Haddington (Lord Binning)
 * Earl of Galloway (Lord Garlies)
 * Earl of Lauderdale (Viscount Maitland)
 * Earl of Lindsay (Viscount Garnock)
 * Earl of Loudoun (Lord Mauchline)
 * Earl of Kinnoull (Viscount Dupplin)
 * Earl of Elgin and Kincardine (Lord Bruce)
 * Earl of Wemyss and March (Lord Elcho/Lord Neidpath)
 * Earl of Dalhousie (Lord Ramsay)
 * Earl of Airlie (Lord Ogilvy)
 * Earl of Leven and Melville (Lord Balgonie)
 * Countess of Dysart (Lord Huntingtower)
 * Earl of Selkirk (Lord Daer)
 * Earl of Northesk (Lord Rosehill)
 * Earl of Dundee (Viscount Dudhope)
 * Earl of Newburgh (Viscount Kynnaird)
 * Earl of Annandale and Hartfell
 * Earl of Dundonald (Lord Cochrane)
 * Earl of Kintore (Viscount Stonehaven)
 * Earl of Dunmore (Viscount Fincastle)
 * Earl of Orkney (Viscount Kirkwall)
 * Earl of Seafield (Viscount Reddhaven)
 * Earl of Stair (Viscount Dalrymple)
 * Earl of Rosebery (Lord Primrose/Lord Dalmeny)
 * Earl of Glasgow (Viscount Kelburn)

Earls - Peerage of Great Britain
 * Earl Ferrers (Viscount Tamworth)
 * Earl of Dartmouth (Viscount Lewisham)
 * Earl of Tankerville (Lord Ossulston)
 * Earl of Aylesford (Lord Guernsey)
 * Earl of Macclesfield (Viscount Parker)
 * Earl Waldegrave (Viscount Chewton)
 * Earl of Harrington (Viscount Petersham)
 * Earl of Portsmouth (Viscount Lymington)
 * Earl of Warwick (Lord Brooke)
 * Earl of Buckinghamshire (Lord Hobart)
 * Earl of Guilford (Lord North)
 * Earl of Hardwicke (Viscount Royston)
 * Earl of Ilchester (Lord Stavordale)
 * Earl de la Warr (Lord Buckhurst)
 * Earl of Radnor (Viscount Folkestone)
 * Earl Spencer (Viscount Althorp)
 * Earl Bathurst (Lord Apsley)
 * Earl of Clarendon (Lord Hyde)
 * Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield (Viscount Stormont)
 * Earl of Mount Edgcumbe (Viscount Valletort)
 * Earl Fortescue (Viscount Ebrington)
 * Earl of Carvarvon (Lord Porchester)
 * Earl Cadogan (Viscount Chelsea)
 * Earl of Malmesbury (Viscount FitzHarris)

Earls - Peerage of Ireland
 * Earl of Cork and Orrery (Viscount Dungarvan)
 * Earl of Westmeath (Lord Delvin)
 * Earl of Meath (Lord Ardee)
 * Earl of Cavan (Viscount Kilcoursie)
 * Earl of Drogheda (Viscount Moore)
 * Earl of Granard (Lord Forbes)
 * Earl of Darnley (Lord Clifton)
 * Earl of Egmont (Viscount Perceval)
 * Earl of Bessborough (Viscount Duncannon)
 * Earl of Carrick (Viscount Ikerrin)
 * Earl of Shannon (Viscount Boyle)
 * Earl of Lanesborough (Lord Newtown-Butler)
 * Earl of Arran (Viscount Sudley)
 * Earl of Courtown (Viscount Stopford)
 * Earl of Mexborough (Viscount Pollington)
 * Earl Winterton (Viscount Turnour)
 * Earl of Kingston (Viscount Lorton)
 * Earl of Roden (Viscount Jocelyn)
 * Earl of Lisburne (Viscount Vaughan)
 * Earl of Clanwilliam (Lord Gillford)
 * Earl of Antrim (Viscount Dunluce)
 * Earl of Longford (Lord Silchester)
 * Earl of Portarlington (Viscount Carlow)
 * Earl of Mayo (Lord Naas)
 * Earl Annesley (Viscount Glerawly)
 * Earl of Enniskillen (Lord Mountflorence)
 * Earl Erne (Viscount Crichton)
 * Earl of Lucan (Lord Bingham)
 * Earl Belmore (Viscount Corry)
 * Earl Castle Stewart (Lord Stuart)
 * Earl of Donoughmore (Viscount Hutchinson)
 * Earl of Caledon (Lord Alexander)
 * Earl of Limerick (Viscount Glentworth)
 * Earl of Clancarty (Viscount Dunlo)
 * Earl of Gosford (Lord Worlingham)
 * Earl of Rosse (Lord Oxmantown)
 * Earl of Normanton (Viscount Somerton)
 * Earl of Kilmorey (Viscount Newry and Mourne)
 * Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl (Viscount Adare)
 * Earl of Listowel (Viscount Ennismore)
 * Earl of Norbury (Viscount Glandine)
 * Earl of Ranfurly (Viscount Northland)

Earls and Countess - Peerage of the United Kingdom
 * Earl of Rosslyn (Lord Loughborough)
 * Earl of Craven (Viscount Uffington)
 * Earl of Onslow (Viscount Cranley)
 * Earl of Romney (Viscount Marsham)
 * Earl of Chichester (Lord Pelham)
 * Earl of Wilton (Viscount Grey de Wilton)
 * Earl of Powis (Viscount Clive)
 * Earl Nelson (Viscount Merton)
 * Earl Grey (Viscount Howick)
 * Earl of Lonsdale (Viscount Lowther)
 * Earl of Harrowby (Viscount Sandon)
 * Earl of Harewood (Viscount Lascelles)
 * Earl of Minto (Viscount Melgund)
 * Earl Cathcart (Lord Greenock)
 * Earl of Verulam (Viscount Grimston)
 * Earl of Saint Germans (Lord Eliot)
 * Earl of Morley (Viscount Boringdon)
 * Earl of Bradford (Viscount Newport)
 * Earl of Eldon (Viscount Encombe)
 * Earl Howe (Viscount Curzon)
 * Earl of Stradbroke (Viscount Dunwich)
 * Earl Temple of Stowe (Lord Langton)
 * Earl Cawdor (Viscount Emlyn)
 * Earl of Lichfield (Viscount Anson)
 * Earl of Durham (Lord Lambton)
 * Earl Granville (Lord Leveson)
 * Earl of Effingham (Lord Howard of Effingham)
 * Earl of Ducie (Lord Moreton)
 * Earl of Yarborough (Lord Worsley)
 * Earl of Leicester (Viscount Coke)
 * Earl of Lovelace (Viscount Ockham)
 * Earl of Gainsborough (Viscount Campden)
 * Earl of Strafford (Viscount Enfield)
 * Earl of Cottenham (Viscount Crowhurst)
 * Earl Cowley (Viscount Dangan)
 * Earl of Dudley (Viscount Ednam)
 * Earl Russell (Viscount Amberley)
 * Earl of Cromartie (Viscount Tarbat)
 * Earl of Kimberley (Lord Wodehouse)
 * Earl of Wharncliffe (Viscount Carlton)
 * Earl Cairns (Viscount Garmoyle)
 * Earl of Lytton (Viscount Knebworth)
 * Earl of Selborne (Viscount Wolmer)
 * Earl of Iddesleigh (Viscount Saint Cyres)
 * Earl of Cranbrook (Lord Medway)
 * Earl of Halsbury (Viscount Tiverton)
 * Earl of Cromer (Viscount Errington)
 * Earl of Plymouth (Viscount Windsor)
 * Earl of Liverpool (Viscount Hawkesbury)
 * Earl Kitchener of Khartoum (Viscount Broome)
 * Earl Saint Aldwyn (Viscount Quenington)
 * Earl Beatty (Viscount Borodale)
 * Earl Haig (Viscount Dawick)
 * Earl of Iveagh (Viscount Elveden)
 * Earl of Balfour (Viscount Traprain)
 * Earl of Oxford and Asquith (Viscount Asquith)
 * Earl Jellicoe (Viscount Brocas)
 * Earl of Inchcape (Viscount Glenapp)
 * Earl Peel (Viscount Clanfield)
 * Earl Baldwin of Bewdley (Viscount Corvedale)
 * Earl of Halifax (Lord Irwin)
 * Earl of Gowrie (Viscount Ruthven)
 * Earl Lloyd George (Viscount Gwynedd)
 * Countess Mountbatten of Burma (Lord Romsey)
 * Earl Alexander of Tunis (Lord Rideau)
 * Earl of Swinton (Lord Masham)
 * Earl Attlee (Viscount Prestwood)
 * Earl of Snowdon (Viscount Linley)
 * Earl of Stockton (Viscount Macmillan)

Proteus 23:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You're right about Lord Carlisle. I've changed the list to correct this. Proteus 00:14, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That list looks good, although I'm fairly certain the grandson of a Duke of Bedford is known as "Lord Howland" and not "Lord Russell" (which would lead to confusion with the Earl Russell). john 00:24, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Viscount Leinster: because His Grace cheated. :) The late 7th Duke had run out of differently-named titles, and so when his great-grandson was born he was called Viscount Leinster, on the assumption that no-one would confuse the newborn baby with the elderly Duke. He could simply have used an invented Lord FitzGerald, but obviously decided against it for some reason.

Lord Howland: again, the list is wrong, and I've changed it to reflect this. The grandson and great-grandson titles are the most difficult to determine, as they don't occur very often. The other big problem is figuring out whether the full peerage titles are used - dropping the "of X" bit seems to be much more common in courtesy titles than in substantive ones, and it's sometimes hard to figure out who drops it and who doesn't. Proteus 00:33, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The problem, unfortunately, is that there is no rule. Baronies and Viscountcies are in the form "Baron/Viscount X of Y, of A in the County of B" or ""Baron/Viscount X, of A in the County of B", and, as you say, the "of A in the County of B" bit is always dropped, as it isn't really part of the title. Other than that, it's all down to custom and practice. There are some general guidelines: if Y is the same as X, it is always dropped, and if there is another peerage with "X of Z" then Y is normally kept to distinguish the two peerages. However, these are nothing more than guidelines, and there are numerous examples of them being broken (the Baron Grey of Codnor, for instance, is known as Lord Grey, even though this doesn't distinguish him from the Earl Grey), and of course there are plenty of examples of "of Y"s being kept even though they aren't necessary for disambiguation, like the Earl Baldwin of Bewdley. "of Y"s that have references to military victories are normally kept, like the Earl Alexander of Tunis and the Earl Mountbatten of Burma, but even this isn't always true, as the Earl Nelson of Trafalgar is known as the Earl Nelson. Scottish courtesy titles are even worse, as they are sometimes changed from "Lord X of Y" to "Lord Y" (like Viscount Howard of Morpeth to Viscount Morpeth, but far more often). Unfortunately, often the only way to find out what is used is to look in Burke's. Proteus 00:50, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just to note that I think Baron Grey of Codnor should be kept at an article at that title, since there have been numerous different medieval baronies of Grey going in and out of abeyance. john 03:54, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Extinct Peerages
Since we seem to be getting towards having a page on every extant peerage, perhaps it's time to start thinking about listing of extinct peerages. What do you think would be a good way to index these? It's a rather daunting undertaking, I'd say. john 05:14, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your 6th WikiCookie!
''Hello again, Optim. I found a secret link to Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum on the Reference desk page, and for it request a wikiCookie/Roll. (I did read the above policy, but the WikiCookies page suggested that one place requests on your talk page nonetheless.) -- Emsworth 00:02, Feb 20, 2004 (UTC)''

Great! Congratulations! Here is your new WikiCookie (your 6th):



Note: Thanks for pointing this issue with the inconsistent talk/wikicookie policy. I fixed it by stating that WikiCookie requests can be requested in my talk :) Optim 00:11, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

British honours system
Hi. Not entirely happy with your last change to the British honours system article, old chap. Lots of worthwhile information has been injudiciously removed - not just the dates, St John of Jerusalem, the Indian orders, but also all reference to the OM and the CH! My suggestion is that you do a revert and flesh out the list with description, rather than deleting the list wholesale. Andrew Yong 13:27, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Australian state governors
My Lord, I have now done complete standardised lists of all the Australian state and colonial governors back to 1788 (Governors of the Australian states). Some of these were peers, so perhaps you could have a look and see if I have got their titles right - most of them need ordinals which my sources did not give. Adam 23:21, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Many thanks. You say Beauchamp was the 1st Earl - I certainly thought the title was older than that, and the Herbert Henry Asquith Cabinet list gives him as the 7th Earl. Could you check this? Adam 23:43, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In Governors of Victoria, I think you have missed the Marquess of Normanby. Adam 00:02, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Baron Gisborough
Hi

I see you've done Gisborough and the Chaloners - I am not familiar with what I assume is a project to do the aristocracy, but I wondered if, where place names are involved, you wanted a link to those places. There is still for example a strong association between the Gisboroughs and the town of Guisborough and I wondered therefore if it would be helpful to link the former to the latter? Best wishes, Nevilley 22:54, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've linked it both ways. I have not emphasised the spelling difference as it is dealt with at Guisborough. My wording for the link in Baron Gisborough is currently a bit rubbish, do redo it if you like. I was a bit stymied by being unable to work out whether they are actually still at G. Hall of have sold up and moved on. Regards Nevilley 23:04, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Lord Baltimore
Emsworth, forgive my reliance on your nobility knowledge--is there a WikiProject I could harass instead?--but I'm working on articles about the 13 colonies (as opposed to the first 13 U.S. states), and I came across Lord Baltimore. Should it be moved to Baron Baltimore? Thank you again! jengod 21:56, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the insight and the pointer to the WikiProject. The move from Lord to Baron done. Very best, jengod 22:24, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)

Thomas Dongan
Lord Emsworth - I was wondering you could possibly help with a peerage issue. An anonymous user dropped by last night and made an edit to Thomas Dongan (1634-1715), an article which I had previously created, changing Dongan's title from "Second Earl of Limerick" to "Second Earl of Carlisle". I had included the original information based on the Catholic Encyclopedia article, and a Google search for the phrases "Thomas Dongan","Earl of Carlisle" draws no hits at all. However, neither of the pages for Earl of Carlisle and Earl of Limerick in Wikipedia has Dongan listed, and in particular, the Earl of Limerick article states that the title was created in 1803. I'm a bit confused here, and do not know if the anonymous edit was by someone who knows better or simply mischief or misinformation. I wondering if you could help out here, since you seem have superior knowledge and reference about these things. I have thes articles  which mentions that Thomas inherited the title from his brother William, who died without issue, but I can't find anything authoritative on the title such that I could contribute to the page itself. The second reference seems possibly to imply that the title in that incarnation existed only with these two men, but I can't tell for sure Thank you so much in advance. :) -- Decumanus 15:38, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Follow up. My (crude) understanding is that William and Thomas were the only two titleholders, with the latter gaining the title from his brother in 1698 under special circumstances because of his extraordinary service. I am assuming the special circumstances included that the title would not pass to his heir.For now, I included the vital dates (minus William's birth, which I could not find) at Talk:Earl of Limerick. -- Decumanus 16:32, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Excellent and thank you! I am glad to clear this up. -- Decumanus 22:05, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

AMA
My Lordship, it seems that my demise has been greatly overstated. My fellow ormer members of the AMA (or OMA, whatever) have already decided to lay my membership to rest after a vacation of a few weeks. That is fine. I never liked clubs, even those frequented by such fine gentlemen such as your Lordship. If I can ever be of service to your group, do not hesitate to contact me via email, as for any other activities I prefer to remain in the shadows. Your most humble and obedient servant.....

Main Page
Emsworth: I reverted your changes on the main page. The anniveraries are coded that way so they are automatically updated. Please don't hardcode it like that - it defeats the purpose. &rarr;Raul654 02:45, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

Peerage Project
I've put some of my thoughts on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage, and wondered if you had any comments on them. I'd appreciate any input you could give. Proteus 21:49, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Politics of the United Kingdom
I took the liberty of creating Template:PoliticsUK based on your design and will replace the tables with in the Politics of the United Kingdom series. The move will make it easier to manage possible updates of the navigation table. Feel free to give your input. Cheers! -- Mic 20:35, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

We have a problem of how to disambiguate the 1st two barons of each creation for Baron Foley. Mintguy (T) 10:36, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps make a notation for the first creation? Thomas Foley, 1st Baron Foley (I), or something to that effect. Mackensen 12:27, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Or even Thomas Foley, 1st Baron Foley (1st Creation). I think this should be discussed on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage. I'll copy this stuff to there. Mintguy (T) 16:39, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Knights of the Garter
Hi Emsworth, there are already lists of the Knights and Ladies of the Garter, in four sections (as linked from the Order of the Garter page) - Knights of the Garter (1349-1699), Knights of the Garter (1700-1899), Knights of the Garter (after 1899), and Ladies of the Garter (1358-1488). I don't know if you want to incorporate your list somehow or what, but I thought I'd let you know. Adam Bishop 22:04, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

AMA Election
Your Lordship, I've taken the liberty of adding links at Announcements and Goings-on that the Association of Members' Advocates is searching for a Coordinator and I have started a new page dealing with the election. See: AMA Coordinator Election. You editing, comments and participation as an AMA member would be appreciated. Your humble and obedient servant... [[User:Alex756|&#8212; Alex756 talk]] 20:27, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

William Blount, 4th Baron Mountjoy
Thanks for separating this into separate article. I was a little uncomfortable adding a large chunk of text about the U.S. Blount, but didn't know what else to do. Bkonrad | Talk 13:58, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

political correctness
 are you still disputing this articles featured status? Sam Spade 00:54, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cricket in India
Your Lordship, I see you did good work on the cricket article. Would you be interested in helping to beef up what I've got so far for Cricket in India? --ALargeElk 12:00, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)