User talk:LorriBrown/Draft page/Archive 1

Request #1 edit on 8 January 2020
Please consider the following addition,

Proposed Change: Expand with sources, after the third paragraph in the Career section of the article (currently begins with "Tate is a Canadian artist..." and ends with "... “video/sculptural installation at the Art Gallery of Swift Current, in 2012”)

In source mode, add the following paragraph:

which renders:

Explanation: This edit request adds a fourth paragraph to the end of the Career section. This is requested in order to expand, with sources, the article for clarity, more context and additional detail about the progression of the subject's career.

Thank you!

Clarification edit request #1 8 January 2020
Kasseler Dokumentarfilm- und Videofest

Suggested edit request #2
I would like to suggest the following edit request, which has also been updated on the User:LorriBrown/Draft page.

This edit request modifies the fourth paragraph:
 * the first sentence would read as is but the Oraf reference would be exchanged for the Perry-1988 reference, which is a better reference;
 * the secound sentence is new and describes Tate's The Stalker installation and is supported by the Talve-1988 reference;
 * the third sentence is modified text to re-add proper attribution to the Merike Talve quote;

The fourth paragraph would read as follows:


 * 1) In 1988 Tate pointed out environmental concerns through symbolism and humor in The Stalker installation at the Contemporary Art Gallery in Vancouver.
 * 2) Tate’s use of elemental materials with the sculptural objects "The Outlaw" a glowing polar bear, and Ready Kilowatt reflect Tate's continued interest in archetypal forms in his installation works.
 * 3) Merike Talve, the curator of exhibition featuring Tate's work, completed her essay by saying:


 * the fifth paragraph will re-add the Merike Talve quote that was removed (plus one additional sentence). This quote is supported by the Talve-1988 reference.

The fifth paragraph would read as follows: "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities."


 * Ok, so, first off, I would again remind you that I am not familiar with the "Art" stuff in general and so can not give you a definitive opinion. I will of course help you draft an edit request that you want to make. With that out of the way:
 * I do not think this one is gonna work. There is too much subjective claims made in Wikipedia's voice. I don't think one piece from a curator or critic is sufficient to present it in Wikipedia's voice. And, secondly, it also doesn't seem to provide enough context and clarity for unfamiliar readers. Finally, since Talve is the curator and not an independent critic, the quote may be excessive; the quote might be excessive even coming from a critic. Perhaps when the article is much longer, it would be accepted, right now it would be undue in that size.
 * To me, more helpful information would be something like this (I skimmed through some stuff yesterday looking for claims in edit request I, now I'm just winging it from that for illustration, so forgive me that it's completely bonkers):
 * "In 1988, Tate's The Stalker installation, in which he critiqued western capitalism in relation with its impact on environment using symbolism and humor, was exhibited at the CAGV. According to curator Merike Talve, The Outlaw, a glowing bear sculpture (representing nature) appearing to have narrowly dodged a spear (representing corporate America), and Ready Kilowatt ([Insert whatever it is. Is it the thing the bear had dodged? I have no idea]), both parts of the same exhibition, also exemplify, through the use of elemental forms in their construction, Tate's continued interest in archetypal forms."
 * And, at the end, the quote may be, could be added without the last sentence which only retells the things we've already mentioned in the article in a more flattering language. Better would be if you could find a quote that critiques The Stalker more broadly, such as the concluding remark of a critical review or something similar even from Talve's essay (something that broadly but succinctly says how good the stalker is and exactly why). I am in a hurry right now, I'll have a closer look at the essay when I can. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 07:23, 13 December 2019 (UTC)


 * , I was/am unlikely to be able to give a significant amount of time to Wikipedia before new years, and so planned to get back to you only then; but I see that all of the refs we talked about for the first edit request are in now, even if the content wording is a mother of all compromises. I am guessing that resolves that one. What are your thoughts on how that went, and how we should proceed. You haven't responded to my comment on the Proposal II above. As for me, I think one weakness of our first request was that it was framed as remove this and add that, which brought extra scrutiny to even stuff that was already there just because the framing of the request involved adding it back. So, I think we ought to make requests in even smaller chunks or in a lot more detail in order to avoid at all costs mentioning text that is already there and could do without modification.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I am afraid it too late now to try to proceed on improving this article. The subject has started a conversation in the Teahouse to delete the article.  I have reached out to various editors along the way and believe now that the article was doomed once I admitted my COI connection.  When I created the article originally - I included a chronological progression of the artist career.  Naturally because of my inexperience I used language was too complementary of the subject and had the appearance of a promotional piece.  The 1st reviewer was brutal in their criticism.  Another editor David not MD reduced the article substantially and it was approved eventually by Theroadislong.  Theroadislong tagged me on the talk page so that is is clear to the world that the article was created by a COI editor.  Since that time basically no one has edited on the article.  Including David not MD who I had initially hoped was help to restore some of the removed content. This is why I accepted the request to create a COI article for them which I've noticed is not tagged like the KT article. Since then I've created multiple articles for other artists that have had unsolicited participation from multiple editors and have not been torn apart or parred down like the KT article.  Clearly to me was not my intent but the article and me as the editor received a lot of criticism.  I have reached out at various times to no avail.  I have reached out recently and have had one editor tell me about the time Tate is shown at the Tate Museum they will help edit.  Another said leave it alone and oh by the way you are a bad writer.  Two others say the KT talk page conversation seems reasonable enough and I don't want to get involved.  And you who have helped best you can navigate an impossible endeavor.  I appreciate that you are busy and I appreciate your time and effort.  There is ample references and ample information available on-line and ample information available upon additional research.  I have offered my research.  I have included references that have just been scoped out and discarded by Spindendo at will.  Clearly they can write as the modified even my most recent request on top of scooping out more content.  I had to request it be added back in and then get scolded for not signing the request.  The whole venture is ridiculous and I could go on and on. I have seen other new editors harshly criticized. I have received less than professional advice.  I have even reached out to see if someone would mentor me.  As a COI editor I have made to feel toxic by the implied shunning.  At this juncture I agree with the subject let's just get on with it - delete it already please!LorriBrown (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I am sorry to hear that. Guess that's it then. I'll follow the Teahouse discussion. See you around! And Happy holidays !!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 09:02, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Not so sure the deletion route will be an easy path either... Happy Holidays to you also.  Again, thank you very much for your ongoing support! Best, LorriBrown (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change II: Edit request prep
Please consider the following,

Proposed Change: Amend, and expand with sources, the fourth paragraph of the article (currently begins with "In 1988, Tate exhibited The Stalker..." and ends with "... Contemporary Art Gallery in Vancouver]].")

In source mode, Replace the whole paragraph with: {{Ivmbox| In her essay, The Stalker Merike Talve cites, "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities." {{refn| "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities." {{rp|11}}

In her essay, The Stalker Merike Talve cites, "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities." {{refn| "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities." {{rp|11}}

{{talk reflist}} }}

Explanation:

This edit request modifies the fourth paragraph. This is requested in order to expand, with sources, the article for clarity, more context and additional detail about the progression of the subject's career in the 80's.

{{cob}}

Discussion I
Ok, let me start by saying that I do think there are far too many citations in the proposed version of the article, and it's highly unlikely that any independent editor will help make the article this big have that many citations. Citations are for supporting the text so that it is verifiable, or in other words, so that no one challenges and removes the text. Any citation beyond that function is unnecessary and will not be accepted. We can look at the sources more closely when looking at proposed changes to the content itself. I propose we work on what should be more uncontroversial changes first. Here's one: I think we should request edit to institute these changes first, and see where it gets us. What do you think? Your opinions on specific proposed changes please.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 17:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC) -- Sorry, I had too many browser tabs open already, and wanted to get rid of those first before I delved into your message which needed many more tabs to follow well. I will try to be more punctual in the future.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikilink "video installations" to Video installation, and of course "Ruth Shaw Award (Best of Saskatchewan)" to Yorkton Film Festival Golden Sheaf Award - Ruth Shaw (Best of Saskatchewan) which is not reviewed yet, but let's be optimistic (from what I've seen of art-related subjects in Wikipedia so far, I think it's likely to be accepted). Rationale:Better integration within the encyclopedia.
 * Add a "See also" section with Dara Birnbaum, Lisa Steele and Peter Campus. Rationale:As above.
 * Put the second paragraph into the "Personal life" section, third, fourth and fifth into the "Career" section, and merge the last two and put into the "Awards" section. Rationale: Better organisation to help in planned further expansion.

It seems you are looking for a mentor, and you do ask at the Teahouse from time to time. Until you find one, when you have specific questions about editing, you can create new sections at the bottom of this page for each, and ping me. I will try to help.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 07:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Alain controversy
Will look into it and get back to you.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:53, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * What exactly is the Alain source? Looks to me like it's referring to Merike Talve's "Kent Tate:The stalker" as well. Please link to the actual text if that is not the case.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 07:05, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

The Contemporary Art Gallery catalogue Merikie Talve quote & reference
The quote and the reference were removed because the reference was not verifying the quote. What that reference would verify is a statement like "The booklet was published in 1988 and costs $8 to buy from the publisher's website." To quote what's inside the book, you'd have to refer to the actual book like (just an example, I don't have 8$). If you have access to the book and can provide the minimum details needed to create a proper citation, we can make an edit request to reinstate the quote, referring to the previous removal. Because removal rationale didn't give another reason then, it might get reinstated without controversy. We'd have to make a request to know for sure.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:53, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Filmography
My understanding is that once an artist has an article, the only requirement for listing their films is verification that each of the entries exist and were created with the involvement of said artist. So, since you have references to support the fact, filmography ought to be acceptable. Please review WP:Filmography for guidelines on how to format a filmography table. When that's done, we can make a request and see what the responder says.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:53, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

--

Discussion I continued

 * I am sure why I missed this but just noticed it the other day... Thank you and I hope my reply is easy to follow. -- LorriBrown.


 * I think I've got the hang of it now. We should be able to have the conversation in real-time going forward. So, please bear with me, as I flood you with more requests for clarification.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 09:27, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently Further Reading section should be formatted the same way as the References. So, if you have the time or the inclination to do that, I could paste it into the article without needing an edit request. Of course, you might be intending to accommodate all of those entries as citations, in which case, it would not matter. Just thought I'd point it out. It's mentioned in one of Spintendo's edit summaries.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 09:45, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

--

Reply 06-NOV-2019

 * I have copied & pasted Spintendo's reply to the Request edit on 6 November 2019 to hopefully make it easier to follow these deletions and to attempt to explain why text and or references should be re-added to the KT article.


 * A list of the sources removed and why:

The reference that you've asked page numbers be applied to in the above edit request was implemented via the pages parameter of the citation template. In regards to the request to duplicate a reference's URL in the External links section, this is declined per guidance given through the third paragraph under the References/Notes section at WP:ILC.
 * 1) This is a link to a museum-sold book being used as the source for a direct quote. The quote is not properly attributed, so it and the reference have been removed.
 * 2) This is a complete duplication of the Alain source, which at its core, is a statement authored by the museum curator informed via information supplied by the artist himself. The museum curator is not an independently reliable WP:SECONDARY source.
 * 3) This duplicated the Oraf source, so was deleted.
 * 4) These two references duplicate the information supplied by the Cataldo source.
 * 1) This duplicated the Oraf source, so was deleted.
 * 2) These two references duplicate the information supplied by the Cataldo source.
 * 1) These two references duplicate the information supplied by the Cataldo source.
 * 1) These two references duplicate the information supplied by the Cataldo source.
 * 1) These two references duplicate the information supplied by the Cataldo source.

--

Clarification about deletions

 * Listed below are some clarifications about the deletions described in Reply 06-NOV-2019.


 * 1) The National Gallery of Canada reference was not associated with the Merike Talve quotation originally. In a prior edit by Spindento on Nov 3rd he removed 'press release' from the National Gallery of Canada ref and replace the Talve-q1 reference to the catalogue with the National Gallery of Canada reference... then latter on Nov 6th he deleted both the Talve quote with the new reference. There was a press release and a catalogue and I had included references to both.
 * 1) The National Gallery of Canada reference was not associated with the Merike Talve quotation originally. In a prior edit by Spindento on Nov 3rd he removed 'press release' from the National Gallery of Canada ref and replace the Talve-q1 reference to the catalogue with the National Gallery of Canada reference... then latter on Nov 6th he deleted both the Talve quote with the new reference. There was a press release and a catalogue and I had included references to both.

National Gallery of Canada ref was used in:
 * During the 1980s and the 1990s, Tate began working in performance, film and video in Toronto and Vancouver before shifting to installation.


 * 1) The quote for Merike Talve was supported by  reference.

Talveq1 ref was used in:


 * In 1988 Tate pointed out environmental concerns through symbolism and humor in The Stalker installation at the Contemporary Art Gallery in Vancouver. Similar to his previous works, The Stalker was described as "...ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct, sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse."

--


 * 1) Marchand is not the curator she is an independent writer & artist.  The curator for Movies for a Pulsing Earth is Kim Houghtaling.
 * 1) Marchand is not the curator she is an independent writer & artist.  The curator for Movies for a Pulsing Earth is Kim Houghtaling.

--


 * 1) The review by Perry is actually a better resource than the Oraf article.  Perry is an art critic who wrote a review about The Stalker.  Oraf wrote an article where The Stalker was noted as one of a few exceptions of local art productions the author mentioned in his Visual Arts: Year in Review for 1988.
 * 1) The review by Perry is actually a better resource than the Oraf article.  Perry is an art critic who wrote a review about The Stalker.  Oraf wrote an article where The Stalker was noted as one of a few exceptions of local art productions the author mentioned in his Visual Arts: Year in Review for 1988.

--


 * 1) The Barker reference could be used as the source and the Cataldo reference could be moved to Further reading section.
 * 1) The Barker reference could be used as the source and the Cataldo reference could be moved to Further reading section.

--

The Alain Reference

 * I had used the Alain reference in the context of the statement that Tate, in his earlier career, was a performance artist. Since what I had written at the time contained the description of Tate as a performance artist as well as a video, film and installation artist. I had included additional references to support each art form.  I now know  that this can appear to be stuffing too many references into one sentence that may make it hard to read and is not a good practice.


 * In Reply 06-NOV-2019 the Carrico, UnitPitt-1 & National Gallery of Canada references were also removed... The original sentence read as follows:

During the 1980s and the 1990s, Tate began working in performance, film and video in Toronto and Vancouver before shifting to installation.

--

Suggested edit request #1

 * I would like to suggest the following edit request, which has also been updated on the User:LorriBrown/Draft page.

This edit request modifies the third paragraph:
 * the first sentence is changed to specify only performance art and uses the Alain reference as updated by Spintendo;
 * the secound sentence is left as is with the Parallelograme reference;
 * a third sentence is added to describe the show plus the Oille-1983 reference to support it;
 * a fourth sentence is added to add the art forms: painting, sculpture.
 * a fifth sentence is added to add installation art plus the Talve-1988 reference to support it; and
 * a six sentence is added to add the art forms: film & video plus the UnitPitt-1 reference to support it.


 * The third paragraph would read as follows:


 * 1) Tate began his career in the 80's with performance art in Toronto.
 * 2) In 1982 he received his first significant recognition in Toronto with the A.R.C. satellite installation Museum of Post-Habitation that concluded with the performance Ending All Occupation.
 * 3) Tate transformed a crumbling dwelling into a museum and the exhibition ended with an auctioneer's performance.
 * 4) His focus shifted in the 80's and early 90's to painting and sculpture.
 * 5) He exhibited these installation projects in Toronto, Vancouver and Victoria.
 * 6) He also explored film and video and in 1983 he produced a 58-minute, optically printed Super 8 film, Vanishing Heat.

Thank you! LorriBrown (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2019 (UTC)


 * , I have some modifications to suggest, but we can continue this below in the request prep section. I will create a request there, while we continue to discuss changes. Looks like the second edit request is dependent on this one, and/or I am not clear about a few things in that one. Should we look at that one right now, or do we do that after we find out how successful this first request turns out?  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 11:41, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * ... I moved this text to the 'Discussion:Request One' section below.LorriBrown (talk) 18:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

--

CAG catalogue Merikie Talve quote

 * The intention for using this link was for proof that the catalogue existed. Obviously it serves not purpose as links are not required and it doesn't link to the article. I've constructed the Talve-1988 reference to not include a link.


 * The following references (Perry and Talve) were removed by Spintendo, as well as the Talve quote, leaving the Oraf reference. I would like to suggest an edit request Suggested edit request #2. Any corrections or suggestions on this edit are also welcomed!

In 1988 Tate pointed out environmental concerns through symbolism and humor in The Stalker installation at the Contemporary Art Gallery in Vancouver. Similar to his previous works, The Stalker was described as "...ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct, sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse."

A pdf of The Stalker catalogue can be found on the artist's website: https://kenttate.ca/Kent%20Tate%20-%20CAG%20exhibition.pdf

--

Suggested edit request #2

 * I would like to suggest the following edit request, which has also been updated on the User:LorriBrown/Draft page.

This edit request modifies the fourth paragraph:
 * the first sentence would read as is but the Oraf reference would be exchanged for the Perry-1988 reference, which is a better reference;
 * the secound sentence is new and describes Tate's The Stalker installation and is supported by the Talve-1988 reference;
 * the third sentence is modified text to re-add proper attribution to the Merike Talve quote;

The fourth paragraph would read as follows:


 * 1) In 1988 Tate pointed out environmental concerns through symbolism and humor in The Stalker installation at the Contemporary Art Gallery in Vancouver.
 * 2) Tate’s use of elemental materials with the sculptural objects "The Outlaw" a glowing polar bear, and Ready Kilowatt reflect Tate's continued interest in archetypal forms in his installation works.
 * 3) Merike Talve, the curator of exhibition featuring Tate's work, completed her essay by saying:


 * the fifth paragraph will re-add the Merike Talve quote that was removed (plus one additional sentence). This quote is supported by the Talve-1988 reference.

The fifth paragraph would read as follows: "Like many of Tate's past projects, The Stalker is ambitious, theatrical, playful and ironic. Kent Tate's installation work has always demonstrated a skillful handling of materials and the continual development of his distinct sardonic critique of the West's post-industrial economic, social and spiritual collapse. Significantly, he continues to choose the mediums which fit his ideas - the return to performance, video, film or painting are all possibilities."


 * Ok, so, first off, I would again remind you that I am not familiar with the "Art" stuff in general and so can not give you a definitive opinion. I will of course help you draft an edit request that you want to make. With that out of the way:
 * I do not think this one is gonna work. There is too much subjective claims made in Wikipedia's voice. I don't think one piece from a curator or critic is sufficient to present it in Wikipedia's voice. And, secondly, it also doesn't seem to provide enough context and clarity for unfamiliar readers. Finally, since Talve is the curator and not an independent critic, the quote may be excessive; the quote might be excessive even coming from a critic. Perhaps when the article is much longer, it would be accepted, right now it would be undue in that size.
 * To me, more helpful information would be something like this (I skimmed through some stuff yesterday looking for claims in edit request I, now I'm just winging it from that for illustration, so forgive me that it's completely bonkers):
 * "In 1988, Tate's The Stalker installation, in which he critiqued western capitalism in relation with its impact on environment using symbolism and humor, was exhibited at the CAGV. According to curator Merike Talve, The Outlaw, a glowing bear sculpture (representing nature) appearing to have narrowly dodged a spear (representing corporate America), and Ready Kilowatt ([Insert whatever it is. Is it the thing the bear had dodged? I have no idea]), both parts of the same exhibition, also exemplify, through the use of elemental forms in their construction, Tate's continued interest in archetypal forms."
 * And, at the end, the quote may be, could be added without the last sentence which only retells the things we've already mentioned in the article in a more flattering language. Better would be if you could find a quote that critiques The Stalker more broadly, such as the concluding remark of a critical review or something similar even from Talve's essay (something that broadly but succinctly says how good the stalker is and exactly why). I am in a hurry right now, I'll have a closer look at the essay when I can. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 07:23, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change I: Edit request prep
Proposed Change: Amend, and expand with sources, the third paragraph of the article (currently begins with "During the 1980s..." and ends with "... Ending All Occupation.")

In source mode, Replace the whole paragraph with:

which renders:

Explanation: This edit request modifies the third paragraph. This is requested in order to expand, with sources, the article for clarity, more context and additional detail about the progression of the subject's career in the 80's and early 90's.
 * 1) the first sentence is updated to refer only to performance art and the Alain reference remains as previously updated;
 * 2) the secound sentence is left as is with the Parallelograme reference;
 * 3) the third sentence is added as a short description of the The Stalker and a new reference Oille-1983 has been constructed, the sources is a review written by Jennifer Oille in the Vanguard magazine, to support it;
 * 4) the fourth sentence expands on painting and sculpture that Tate engaged in during this time frame; and
 * 5) the fifth sentence refers to Tate's installations projects. The reference to Merike Talve's The Stalker, which was previously removed, has been reformatted and used appropriately, to now be verifiable as intended.  Both the fourth and the fifth sentence are supported by the Talve reference.

Proposed Change (UPDATED):

 Amend, and expand with sources, the third paragraph of the article (currently begins with "During the 1980s..." and ends with "... Ending All Occupation.")

In source mode, Remove the following paragraph:

In source mode, Replace the whole paragraph with:

which renders:

Explanation: This edit request modifies the third paragraph. This is requested in order to expand, with sources, the article for clarity, more context and additional detail about the progression of the subject's career in the 80's and early 90's.
 * 1) the first sentence is updated to refer only to performance art and the Alain reference remains as previously updated;
 * 2) the secound sentence is left as is with the Parallelograme reference;
 * 3) the third sentence is added as a short description of the The Stalker and a new reference Oille-1983 has been constructed, the sources is a review written by Jennifer Oille in the Vanguard magazine, to support it;
 * 4) the fourth sentence expands on installation art projects, film and video that Tate engaged in during this time frame as well as the locations.  The reference to Merike Talve's The Stalker, which was previously removed, has been reformatted and used appropriately, to now be verifiable as intended.

Discussion:Request One
I have never done this either. So, feel free to amend or suggest alternatives/amendments to the way I have constructed it. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 13:19, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) I have changed the url of the UnitPitt-1 reference. I am not sure that it is obvious that the author of that page is Kent Tate. I could be missing something, but to me, the only evidence of that would be the url which also mentions Marie Kamali. Could that be a collaborator of Kent if he is indeed the author?
 * 2) I also copy-edited the text to make it clearer to readers like me what I think it is saying. Feel free to copy-edit my copy-edit if you agree with some of them, or otherwise restore your preferred version.


 * , Thank you so much for your help with this. I really do appreciate it! I would like to remove the last sentence about film and video & Vanishing Heat + the reference to UnitPitt-1.  Maybe it could be included in the filmography - or - maybe it could be mentioned in a separate paragraph latter on.  For now let's leave that out it. Should I leave it up to you to edit and remove that sentence in the edit request you've prepared?


 * I think it would be better to work on the two edit request separately. I am familiar with the subject and even I'm getting confused. When you are ready let me know what your questions are with the 2nd edit and how to proceed with submitting the 1st edit request on the KT talk page. Thanks again! LorriBrown (talk) 18:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC)LorriBrown (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, I encourage you to edit the request yourself since it can always be recovered from history if something goes on and more importantly, it is you, who will have to own up to the prepared request and post it on the article talk page as your own. I have removed the last sentence and its ref. When you're ready, edit the request statement to what you feel comfortable presenting as your own and then add it to the article's talk page, adding your signature at the end. You can blank this section when you do that. I will look over the second request now.


 * Note that, if you disagree with what responders do, you can discuss it with them. One responder's response doesn't constitute a final word. Responders only institute uncontroversial changes, and more controversial ones require discussion, sometimes going as far as WP:RFC. Cheers!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:26, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oille ref might need to be explained, which I didn't know because I wouldn't know what to say. Or, at least mention that the only other new ref being added is the Oille one, in the interest of transparency.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 06:30, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you think this explanation will help the editor to understand the requested changes? Or is it too much detail?  Thanks, LorriBrown (talk) 17:56, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think it's somewhere in between but it is an improvement, and I got no ideas to do better. Let's go with it. Maybe change bullets to numbers as it is an ordered list.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 18:10, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , that didn't go that bad. Could you collect quotes from sources that support the statements being added/modified? The other request is fairly simple. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 16:10, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I've updated the Proposed change I: Edit request prep section above to incorporate the quotes into the references, I've added a section to define what is to be removed. I changed some text in the third sentence from 'For it, he had transformed a crumbling dwelling into a museum, and the exhibition ended with an auctioneer's performance' - to - 'For it, he had transformed a soon to be abandoned dwelling into a museum and the exhibition ended with an auctioneer's performance.' I combined the fourth and fifth sentence into one sentence from 'His focus shifted in the late 80s and early 90s towards painting and sculpture. He exhibited these installation projects in Toronto, Vancouver and Victoria.' to one that reads: 'His focus shifted in the mid to late 80's towards video, film and  installations, exhibiting these projects in Toronto, Vancouver and Victoria'.


 * I had included the 1990's but the reference only includes the projects up to 1988, so I needed to remove it. I am not sure that including painting and sculpture is clear enough in the quotes.  I reverted back to the original text of installations, film and video and I believe that is supported by the Talve reference.
 * I may have included too much information in the quotes.... Can I copy/paste and insert this updated version into yesterday's request - or - do you think I should submit this as a new request? I get the logic with the request for quotations.  Thank you! LorriBrown (talk) 20:47, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Reworking a post that's already been replied to is a nightmare. New one would be hassle-free. You can make a new section referring to the old, or add a new subsection as a reply to Spintendo's reply. I prefer the latter. Length of the quote doesn't matter, since it's only for the record and the reviewer, and is not going to make it into the article. I leave it to Spintendo to judge if it's too little or too much. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 14:23, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Can you help me address the new list of concerns that Spintendo has noted?

It isn't clear to me why in the item #1 this statement 'Tate began his career in the early 1980s with performance art in Toronto.' would require a quote. The statement already had been included in the article. The change was only to separate out performance because Spintendo had deleted the other references that supported the rest of the content in the statement I had made previously made: 'During the 1980s and the 1990s, Tate began working in performance, film and video in Toronto and Vancouver before shifting to installation.'. I do not have access to any more than is available in the link included in the reference. I did locate another resource which is Une bibliographie commentée en temps réel : l’art de la performance au Québec et au Canada An Annotated Bibliography in Real Time: Performance Art in Quebec and Canada (2017/2018), link: https://artexte.ca/app/uploads/2018/07/final_-performance_bibliocommentee_2018_7_har-uqam-1-2.pdf, Page 124: Oille, J. (1983). Kent Tate. Museum of Post-Habitation. Vanguard, 12(2), 32.

I thought perhaps I could just leave the first sentence as it was (minus 1990) + change the reference). I am not sure now that that will be allow after reading the explanation for sentence #3... but here it is anyway:

Throughout the 1980s, Tate performed, produced videos and films, and exhibited installations in Toronto, Vancouver and Victoria.

I am getting closer to just asking for a deletion of the page. I am getting dizzy with this process and it requires far too much effort to really be worth a couple of sentences.

Best regards, LorriBrown (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I will go over the available texts to see what exactly they support and try and divine how they might be used so they're accepted. I was going to say you should ask Spintendo and discuss it with them but you've already done that. While we wait for an answer, you could ask if someone could make available pages from the Alain book that mention Tate, at WP:RX. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 03:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Found this. Looks like there may be something relevant starting at page 203.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 03:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I can't read what is on page 203 but 387 is Museum of Post Habitation. Could I just type out that text?


 * Page 387 should be toward the end of the book and looks like it's an index of terms in the book. So, all it is saying, AFAICT, is that information on Kent Tate and whatever is in the parenthesis can be found at page 203. Without knowing what's on page 203, it has limited usability in my view, as it doesn't provide any useful information to an unfamiliar reader. Regards!  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 04:53, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

-

Ping!
Hello, I started this talk page originally to organize updates from User:LorriBrown/Draft page into proposed edit requuest to place on the KT talk page, which I've temporarily abandoned... I missed your message but have since replied. Thank you for that message. Any guidance, recommendations or suggestions are welcomed! Thanks, :-)LorriBrown (talk) 21:15, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping . Am I correct in assuming that the corresponding userpage is how, in your vision, the article should ultimately look like, and sections below this one here, are your attempts at breaking those edits into smaller chunks for making edit requests?  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 22:08, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , This was the original idea before my last edit request. I explained some of this in my message but I've since thought about it and have paired the draft down quite a bit. I'll work on it some more tomorrow I noticed now some of the reference got messed up.  If you could help me with whether or not the filmography can reasonably be added then that would be really a great help. LorriBrown (talk) 06:29, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We'd have to look more closely into the sources first, but given my unfamiliarity with the topic area, I'm guessing we won't know for sure until we actually make a request.
 * Let's start with simple straightforward changes which should be uncontroversial, to get the hang of it.  Usedtobecool  TALK ✨ 17:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Modify ref [2] “Marchand” in Kent Tate article:
Ref[2] “Marchand” code current Kent Tate: 2. Marchand, Laureen (2012). "Kent Tate: Movies for a Pulsing Earth". gallerieswest. Vol. Summer. pp. 24–26. Retrieved 11 January 2019.

Ref[2] “Marchand-2012” code proposed User:LorriBrown/Draft page: 2. Marchand, Laureen (Summer 2012). "Kent Tate: Movies for a Pulsing Earth" (magazine). Galleries West. Vol. 11 no. 2. pp. 24-26 (1-74). Retrieved 11 January 2019.

Itemized list of changes to reference [2} "Marchand': * change to ref [2]name to: name="Marchand-2012" * add: |magazine=Galleries West  *      |format=magazine  *      |date=Summer 2012  *      |volume=11  *      |issue=2  *      |pages=24-26 (1-74);  *  specify page#:

Add ref [2} & the page #26 “Marchand-2012”  to end of last sentence of lead section: * He creates single-channel video and multi-channel video installations.[5][2]:26

Replace [2] ref name “Marchand” with [2] ref name “Marchand-2012”  in all sections adding specified page #’s as noted: * Kent Tate is a Canadian artist[1][2]:26 * Tate was born in Rivers, Manitoba[2]:26

Modify ref [1] "Artists in Canada" in Kent Tate article:
Ref[1] "Artists in Canada" code current Kent Tate: 1. Tate, Kent. "Government of Canada: Artists in Canada Reference Library". National Gallery of Canada. Retrieved 17 February 2019.

Ref[1] "Artists" code proposed User:LorriBrown/Draft page: 1. Tate, Kent. "Government of Canada: Artists in Canada Reference Library". National Gallery of Canada. Retrieved 4 November 2019.

Itemized list of changes to reference [1} ""Artists in Canada"': * change to ref [1] name to: name="Artists" * change url to: https://app.pch.gc.ca/application/aac-aic/artiste_detailler_bas-artist_detail_bas.app?rID=33823&fID=2&lang=en * change: |accessdate=4 November 2019

Modify by adding 'Early life' section and proposed changes to Kent Tate article:
Currently reads on Kent Tate: Tate was born in Rivers, Manitoba[2] and grew up in Germany[6] until he moved with his family to Ottawa, Ontario.[7]

Proposed changes on User:LorriBrown/Draft page: Early life Tate was born in Rivers, Manitoba[2]:26 and grew up in Germany[6] until he moved with his family to Ottawa, Ontario.[7] At an early age Tate discovered the National Gallery of Canada and the National Museum of Natural Sciences and it was this discovery that first inspired an interest in Tate for modern art.[7] Itemized list of changes proposed to Early Life section: * Add section heading for 'Early life' * specify page# [2]:26 * Add new sentence: At an early age Tate discovered the National Gallery of Canada and the National Museum of Natural Sciences and it was this discovery that first inspired an interest in Tate for modern art. * Add ref [7] "Dowson" at the end of this new sentence. (Note for reference [7] )

Modify by adding ‘Career’ section and proposed changes to Kent Tate article:
Currently reads on Kent Tate: During the 1980s and the 1990s, Tate began working in performance,[8] film[9][10] and video in Toronto and Vancouver before shifting to installation.[11] In 1982 Tate received his first significant recognition in Toronto with the A.R.C. satellite installation Museum of Post-Habitation (a transformation of a crumbling dwelling),[9] that concluded in the performance Ending All Occupation.[12] Proposed changes on User:LorriBrown/Draft page: Career During the 1980s and the 1990s, Tate began working in performance,[8]:387 film[9]:16[10] and video in Toronto and Vancouver before shifting to installation.[11] In 1982 Tate received his first significant recognition in Toronto with the A.R.C. satellite installation Museum of Post-Habitation[12] (a transformation of a crumbling dwelling),[9]:16 that concluded in the performance Ending All Occupation.[13] Tate toured his optically printed Super 8 film Vanishing Heat across Canada in 1983;[9]:16 however, the tour ended when the only print was stolen at a Seattle bus station on the way to a screening in San Francisco.[10]

Tate's return to film occurred after a visit to the Hawaiian Islands in 1992 and a hike into the rain forest and lava flows in the Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. After Tate moved to Big Island of Hawaii, he spent several years filming Kilauea Volcano.[14] He produced his first experimental movie focused on the volcanic forces in Hawaii.[15] Tate continued his interest in film after returning to Canada in 2005 by filming in the Canadian Rockies,[16] after living in Hawaii for over ten years. In 2007 he moved to Saskatchewan and began filming the Prairie landscapes;[17] creating multiple movies documenting his activities during this time.[18][19][20] Itemized list of changes proposed to Career section:  * Add section heading: ‘Career’ * Add page # to the ref [8]:387 * Add page # to the ref [9] :16 * Add new ref # [12]

Add new sentence to the end of the first paragraph:  * Tate toured his  optically printed Super 8 film Vanishing Heat across Canada in 1983;  however, the tour ended when the only print was stolen at a Seattle bus station on the way to a screening in San Francisco.[10]

(Note for reference [10] )

Add new paragraph: Tate's return to film occurred after a visit to the Hawaiian Islands in 1992 and a hike into the rain forest and lava flows in the Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. After Tate moved to Big Island of Hawaii, he spent several years filming Kilauea Volcano.[14] He produced his first experimental movie focused on the volcanic forces in Hawaii.15] Tate continued his interest in film after returning to Canada in 2005 by filming in the Canadian Rockies,16] after living in Hawaii for over ten years. In 2007 he moved to Saskatchewan and began filming the Prairie landscapes;[17] creating multiple movies documenting his activities during this time.[18][19][20]

(Note for reference [6] [7] [8]

Request #2 edit on 8 January 2020
Please consider the following addition,

Proposed Change: Add a new section for Filmography with sources, after the Awards section of the article (currently begins with "Tate's experimental movie..." and ends with "... “Walthamstow International Film Festival in 2019”)

In source mode, add the following Filmography section: {{Ivmbox|

Experimental films and videos (2010 - 2019)

 * Long Horizons (2010) ISBN: 978-0-9865421-2-1
 * SIGHTINGS (2013)
 * The Sun Comes Out At Night (2014)
 * Isolated Gestures (2014) Yorkton Film Festival / 2015 Golden Sheaf Award - Ruth Shaw winner and Best Experimental nominee
 * Landing Sites (2014)
 * Inventory (2016)
 * No Rest for the Restless  (2017)
 * Utopia (2017)
 * Velocity (2017) Walthamstow International Film Festival 2019 Best Experimental winner
 * ''RUPTURE (2018)
 * Catalyst (2018)
 * Cornucopia (2019)
 * SENSORES (2019)
 * FURNACE (2019)

Exhibitions (2010 - 2019)

 * Movies for a Pulsing Earth (multi-channel video/sculptural installation) Solo Exhibition (2016) Moose Jaw Museum and Art Gallery, Moose Jaw, Canada.
 * KOSMA / FALL International Invitational Exhibition: Media Companion (single-channel video), (2019) Woosuk Gallery at Seoul National University (2019), Nowon-gu, Seoul, South Korea.
 * KOSMA / Poetic Light Invitational Exhibition (single-channel video), (2019) Asia Cultural Center: Media Wall, Gwangju, South Korea.
 * PENEPLAIN (multi-channel video installation) Solo Exhibition (2019) Art Gallery of Swift Current, Swift Current, Canada.

}}

which renders:

{{Ivmbox|

Experimental films and videos (2010 - 2019)

 * Long Horizons (2010) ISBN: 978-0-9865421-2-1
 * SIGHTINGS (2013)
 * The Sun Comes Out At Night (2014)
 * Isolated Gestures (2014) Yorkton Film Festival / 2015 Golden Sheaf Award - Ruth Shaw winner and Best Experimental nominee
 * Landing Sites (2014)
 * Inventory (2016)
 * No Rest for the Restless  (2017)
 * Utopia (2017)
 * Velocity (2017) Walthamstow International Film Festival 2019 Best Experimental winner
 * ''RUPTURE (2018)
 * Catalyst (2018)
 * Cornucopia (2019)
 * SENSORES (2019)
 * FURNACE (2019)

Exhibitions (2010 - 2019)

 * Movies for a Pulsing Earth (multi-channel video/sculptural installation) Solo Exhibition (2016) Moose Jaw Museum and Art Gallery, Moose Jaw, Canada.
 * KOSMA / FALL International Invitational Exhibition: Media Companion (single-channel video), (2019) Woosuk Gallery at Seoul National University (2019), Nowon-gu, Seoul, South Korea.
 * KOSMA / Poetic Light Invitational Exhibition (single-channel video), (2019) Asia Cultural Center: Media Wall, Gwangju, South Korea.
 * PENEPLAIN (multi-channel video installation) Solo Exhibition (2019) Art Gallery of Swift Current, Swift Current, Canada.

}}

Explanation: This edit request adds a fourth section on to the article for Filmography after the end of the Career section plus subsections for Experimental films and videos (2010 - 2019) and Exhibitions (2010 - 2019). This is requested in order to expand, with sources, the article for clarity, more context and additional detail about the progression of the subject's career.

Thank you!