User talk:LowLevel73/Archives/2022/September

New page reviewer granted
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Re: Theatre of Italy moved to draftspace
Hi, first of all thanks for the message. I apologize for my English right now. I wrote to for a copyedit of the draft, but unfortunately I cannot do more for the sources: I have not found better on the Internet. A greeting. LukeWiller (talk) 13:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC).


 * Hello @LukeWiller. I felt sorry for having to draftify the article but, in its current form, it's too troublesome for mainspace. Its English and tone can be fixed but the original contents and the supporting sources are the most problematic aspect. I'll elaborate and explain why I disagree about your opinion that the article should have stayed in mainspace.
 * The long source article that you translated was itself problematic. It was written in an essaystic tone and it was almost completely unsourced (hundreds of statements and claims, only five citations). This implies that until someone goes looking for reliable and verifiable sources, we have no idea how much of it is original research.
 * The sources that you added, I'm afraid, are mostly unreliable and largely fail verifiability: a large percentage of them discuss the topic but don't even address the statement made in the article. I'll show you a few examples to help you start evaluating the issue (reference numbers come from this version of the article):
 * "Filippo Tommaso Marinetti took an interest in writing the various Futurist Manifests on his new idea of ​​theater. Together with Bruno Corra and Francesco Cangiullo he created what was called synthetic theater".[39] (fails both WP:V and WP:RS; it's a book store and the book shown is the manifest of their movement)
 * "He was also the initiator of a dynasty that dominated the Neapolitan theater scene for decades and the creator of Felice Sciosciammocca's mask; the work that most stands out in its prolific production is Miseria e nobiltà, whose fame among the last generations is also due to the film transposition of 1954 with Totò in the leading role".[36] (fails both WP:V and WP:RS; it's just a video clip and a synopsis of the movie)
 * "His opera Mefistofele, with music and libretto by the author, perhaps represents a unicum in the panorama of Italian melodrama".[34] (fails WP:V; the document focuses only on how the author of the opera changed it to make it more acceptable to the public)
 * "In the second half of the century, the romantic tragedy gave way to the Teatro verista, which saw Giovanni Verga and Emilio Praga among the greatest exponents, both coming from the artistic movement of the Milanese Scapigliatura".[31] (fails WP:V; it's not even about the Scapigliatura)
 * "In the second half of the century the figure of Vittorio Alfieri, the greatest Italian tragedian of the 18th century, dominated".[30] (fails both WP:V and WP:RS)
 * "But the most important Italian author of this genre was Giovanni Battista Guarini who composed the most famous and represented pastoral in the Italian theater: Il pastor fido".[18] (fails both WP:V and WP:RS; it's an auction website that sells a book)
 * "We do not know the programs of these theaters, even if there are fragments of original dramaturgical works left, it is not difficult to guess that there was no lack of classics, the tragedies of the three great giants Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides and the comedies of Aristophanes".[2] (fails both WP:V and WP:RS, which should both be extra-important in this case because of the "it is not difficult to guess")
 * I'll stop here, but it goes on and on...
 * From the point of view of reliability, the added sources are not less problematic:
 * Self-published content, like personal blogs and a forum
 * Several (unsourced) student dissertions or summaries of a subject, published in student portals
 * Bookshops and auction websites
 * An anonymous Powerpoint presentation
 * Even a blog that mixes art articles with affiliate poker and gambling content (see [19])
 * Now, I disagree with your opinion (here) and @Vaselineeeeeeee's opinion (here) that an article created and sourced in this way conforms enough to English Wikipedia standards to the point that it would have been appropriate to keep it in mainspace.
 * The issues can be fixed but it will require time and I moved the article to draft space so that editors can improve it.
 * Finally, a suggestion. Non-English sources are fine if used properly, but you have added exclusively non-English sources to the article. This choice, in addition to making verifiability more difficult for both readers and patrollers, makes me think that perhaps you don't feel familiar enough with English to the point that you avoid looking for reliable English sources (which do exist).
 * If this is the case, I suggest you evaluate the complexity of a task before undertaking it and avoid those that seem too complex to you. Translating a long and unsourced history and art article, suspected of some WP:OR and requiring accurate sources, is not an easy task for anyone. Adding only generic sources that are difficult to verify and that, when evaluated, fail in both WP:V and WP:RS is not a shortcut to creating a good article.
 * Happy editing! ►  LowLevel73  (talk) 15:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed answer and above all for the advice. As we say in Italy, "I took the step longer than the leg" (which means that I have tried to solve a problem that is too complex for me). A warm greeting. --LukeWiller (talk) 18:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC).