User talk:Ludwigs2/Archive 12

Re your comments on ANI at this thread
Hi. I just want to let you know that the comment you left in this thread is a little derogatory, as pointed out by the user Uncle G who replied to it below your post. Please take care to think about what you write, so that your comments, however jokingly they were intended, are not misconstrued :) Thanks!  Barking  Fish  13:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * We are talking about editors edit-warring over catdog episodes. how would you characterize that behavior?  I'm not going to dispute the objection in the thread (since that would be pointless, and I respect the fact that someone might not approve), but other than that...  it's a bit of a joke about something that's painfully obvious. I'm not too concerned about it.


 * This really hinges on the difference between civility and political correctness. I aim for the first, but I rarely give in to the second.  apologies.  -- Ludwigs 2  15:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Please
Please take a look at User:WhatamIdoing/Sandbox, and feel free to improve. I'm sure there are better examples than what's occurred to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of your recent changes aren't quite accurate. A scholar writing decades later is not a first-party actor in the Manson Family murders.  The first-party sources in that example are (1) the people committing murder and (2) the people being murdered.  The police are actually third-party sources for what happened.  (They are first-party sources for whatever they saw and did themselves.)  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Please, feel free to edit/remove/improve anything I added - I was just trying to flesh things out the way I see them, and I freely admit I might not have hit it on the head. What you've done is a really good start, and I think it'll be useful.  what I really need to do, I think, is go through the assortment of policies and essays that already try to deal with this issue and see what they say explicitly; that way we can use this to integrate and organize them better.  -- Ludwigs 2  21:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The endless treadmill...
Hi Ludwigs2, I've reversed your closure of the "latest" WT:RD thread on punctuation &c. For an editor-behaviour thread, my feeling is that it should be closed by an admin if it is to be closed at all. There has also been some hostility in the past at reftalk to editors unilaterally hatting discussion threads on the lines of "who are you to decide?". This is a case where I have to ask the same question - and I've been thinking about this since 3 minutes after your edit, so it's not a decision arrived at lightly. Refdeskers are by and large pretty level-headed people and I always value their input (including yours) - so I'd prefer to see the comments continue for a while more. Hopefully I've accurately refactored your closing note but feel free to refactor additionally as you see fit. Franamax (talk) 22:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Lol - no problem. Usually when I do something like that it's more in the nature of smelling salts - an unexpected and unpleasant intrusion that can sometimes snap people back to full consciousness.  It wasn't intended to be authoritative, exactly, and I don't mind it being reverted if there's a good reason to revert it.


 * I do think I was correct, however: unless there's some meaningful changes in attitude this is just going to squabble its way straight into bans/blocks. I will be more surprised than most if anything productive comes out of continued debate.  -- Ludwigs 2  23:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Your closure was likely correct from the standpoint of unlikelihood of further progress and potential for further disruption. It may also have been correct as being already a decided issue, but you didn't indicate the previous consensus in your close. Prediction of the future is not really a basis for a close, unless there is ongoing disruption within the thread which needs to be quelled. Remember that when you hat something, you are telling everyone else on the wiki to STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS! You need to outline to all others why the discussion itself should be shut down, rather than why the discussion subject (or initiator in this case) should be left up to an admin to decide based on sober summing-up of other people's views. Franamax (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

missed your comment
sorry, I missed your comment, here: Template_talk:Hidden_archive_top. I was surprised by the whole thing as I think the discusssion was closed as I was typing. Then when I checked to see when it was opened, I was really irritated. They should have a minimum time before a deletion discussion is allowed to be closed. stmrlbs | talk 01:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * well, you could reopen the deletion discussion with a very clear statement that the last one was too short to be meaningful. do you think that would be useful?  -- Ludwigs 2  02:57, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Forum-shopping
Thanks for your tweak - I think that captures it nicely. ‒ Jaymax✍ 00:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Medicine/Chiropractic/SPOV
Hey Ludgwigs, re: your comment that these issues have been discussed before, can you point me to some of those discussions? I know that Chiropractic had its own Arbcom case and I've read through it (as well as reams of talk page history), but I can't find much discussion about MEDRS in conjunction with ASF except from those who want them to work in lockstep. Ocaasi 69.142.154.10 (talk) 04:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure which comment you're referring to. the GEV section has frequently been challenged (look at the talk pages of NPOV and NPOV/FAQ), the issues in general come up all the time here and there.  can you be more specific?  -- Ludwigs 2  17:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that issues about how NPOV applies to medical articles has been discussed before. I assume some of that happened during the Chiropractic ArbCom case.  Are there other places I should look? Ocaasi 69.142.154.10 (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Trading card game
We're wrapping up the democratic rules approval process. Please reveiw Wikipedia:Trading card game/Action plan/Phase 1:Rules/Rules approval‎ and review the ruleset. If no changes are made to it within 7 days, then we will proceed next week with the card nomination and approval process.

If you are no longer interested in helping out with the project, please remove your name from the participants list.

Thanks! Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 05:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

BLP concerns
My concerns in :
 * It's all your opinion.
 * Besides applying to all Wikipedia pages, WP:BLP also states, "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
 * "but they don't seem to realize or acknowledge the distinction" Again, your opinion. Ironically, it applies to most of the arguments for getting rid of the Quackwatch ref.
 * "he's more concerned with the opinion-mongering side of that equation (the 'informing people' bit) than he is with the actual analytic process of distinguishing good practices from bad." Pure speculation on your part. This is a pattern.
 * "but the people inclined to do that kind of thing (Barrett being no exception) have a horrible tendency to overindulge in questionable critiques" Ditto for this and the rest of the paragraph.

In other words, the entire first paragraph is a BLP vio. --Ronz (talk) 01:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a noticeboard page, Ronz, not an article, and the purpose of these statements is to evaluate Barrett as a source. You are welcome to offer counter-arguments if you like, but you cannot silence all discussion of Barrett as a source by using BLP.  Keep in mind that if you continue arguing that Barrett cannot be discussed as a source per BLP, then I will begin arguing that Barrett cannot be used as a source per wp:RS and wp:V - a source which cannot be discussed cannot be verified, and therefore can never be considered reliable under policy.  Is that where you want this to go?  -- Ludwigs 2  01:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "This is a noticeboard page" BLP still applies, right?
 * "you cannot silence all discussion of Barrett as a source by using BLP" Thankfully, no one is doing any such thing. Can we get back to the matter at hand? --Ronz (talk) 01:58, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * -- Ludwigs 2 02:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ludwigs2, I don't know if you saw it but we already have a wp:RS Noticeboard thread going on regarding Barrett (Reliable_sources/Noticeboard).--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look at it. But really, there might be too many discussions on this going on.  it's better to have things centralized in one location, to keep confusion down.  -- Ludwigs 2  17:09, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason to restore disputed BLP content and note it on BLPN. --Ronz (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I guess you get the final word. Good for you! --Ronz (talk) 16:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe I do, maybe I don't: that will be decided at BLP/N. however, I don't see anything in this passage that's troubling enough to call for immediate removal as a clear BLP problem, and I see no reason to edit war over it.  let the discussion play out - if it's decided that it really is a BLP issue, then we can remove the passage at that time.  In the meantime, it strikes me as a valid concern about Barrett as a source, so it should stay.


 * Incidentally, if there is a particular phrase or wording in that passage that you think is particularly troubling, I'm happy to remove it in a way that doesn't otherwise disturb the point being made. I'm not insensitive to the BLP issue, I just don't want the sourcing argument in its entirety suppressed.  -- Ludwigs 2  16:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "I'm not insensitive to the BLP issue" I see no evidence of that.
 * "I just don't want the sourcing argument in its entirety suppressed." Strawman. There's been a massive discussion on two noticeboards. Suppressed? Just the opposite. --Ronz (talk) 16:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to say, Ronz. Reason is a harsh mistress, but she's mine, and I don't cheat on her.  if you choose to live in a fishbowl you may do so, but any distortions you see are most likely refractions incurred where reality meets the edges of your worldview.  enough said?  -- Ludwigs 2  17:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said: strawman. --Ronz (talk) 01:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's not a strawman. more like a fishman - possibly aquaman?  -- Ludwigs 2  03:12, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - Weston Price discussions
I must say thanks for how you're handling these discussions, especially with SA involved. While they could be going much better, I expected much worse based upon similar, past discussions between the two of you. --Ronz (talk) 19:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, my early 'disagreements' with SA were more in the nature of misunderstandings. I've gotten a better grasp on the wikipedia process over time, and he seems to have mellowed a bit.  There's still a core disagreement about where the median lies on skeptic/pseudoscience debates (and that will probably always exist), but we seem to have gotten around to a place where we can discuss it rationally.  One must appreciate blessings, large and small.    -- Ludwigs 2  20:36, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Collapsing text
Please don't make assumptions about others, and don't make threats based upon assumptions. You're wrong to make such assumptions, and your assumptions are wrong. 

What wikitext did I muck up? --Ronz (talk) 03:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * My apologies if I made a wrong presumption, but your hastiness to close the subject before ArbCom does so officially (combined with the mucked up wikitext and the tone of your language) spoke to me of anger, or at least some over-strong emotion. As always, I can deal with disagreement, and I don't mind being wrong or losing a point where I deserve to lose a point, but petty actions (like hiding or deleting text peremptorily or ostentatiously failing to follow basic logic) irk me.  I'm used to academic discussions, where people respect reason and don't give in to every little impulse to score an emotional victory, and I dislike slogging through more colorful discourse.


 * you placed the collapse top before a section break and the collapse bottom after it, which meant that removing it required editing two sections. not difficult for someone who knows the template, but annoying, and it might have driven a newb to distraction trying to figure it out.  -- Ludwigs 2  03:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the apology.
 * Doh! Good point on placing it after the section break. Placing it after allows the TOC to work. I've made that mistake a few times I'm afraid. --Ronz (talk) 04:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Marking your ArbCom requests
I should have waited before marking your requests as denied. Apologies.

I feel it should be collapsed on BLPN because it's far off topic. Maybe after it's resolved, someone else will do so. --Ronz (talk) 03:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * well, I only put in on BLPN because I mentioned that in the case and I knew there were some participants there. But I can see your point, and as a gesture of good will I'll go ahead and collapse that one on my own (marked as 'probably denied').  as soon as the case gets denied, feel free to collapse the other and change the label on this one.  -- Ludwigs 2  03:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We could have saved ourselves a week of debate by moving Barrett's criticism to the Foundation article where it really belongs. I've worked on a lot of articles, and I've never seen such a fuss made over a tiny spec in one article. It's as though we were insulting someone's mother or something. Maybe we should remove the criticism section altogether and stick Barrett in a See also section.  Then there would be no BLP issue at all. I can't wait till this is over, because I don't get my jollies over these preceedings like some folks must. I'm just here to edit articles. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 04:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * These issues have a very, very long history (going back before I started here - they reached an ArbCom head in 2006, so they must have been going on for a couple of years before that. still a lot of frayed nerves over it all. Just remember to take a deep breath and remember that it's just the ghost of disputes past haunting the site, not anything to do with you personally.


 * I don't think that Barrett should be removed (he's clearly notable, and clearly represents a particular POV that should be included). I just feel sometimes that he's been totemized, and I'd like to bring him back down to earth.  but that will take time.  -- Ludwigs 2  04:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (N/e) -- Ludwigs 2 04:37, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * All I can say is, that this is a blip in the static around here. You want to see real BLP stuff going on, go to Rush Limbaugh and witness what goes on, on that talk page. If this little article can generate this much fuss on three noticeboards and ArbCon, then applying the exact same fuss about the Limbaugh article should get an entire WP server of its own. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 04:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Continuing to make substantial changes to NPOV without consensus
For consistency with NPOV, I think you need to first explain your deletion of ASF and major rewrite to NPOV against Wikipedia's consensus. You continuously edit without consensus and delete long established parts of policy. Do you understand it is a big deal when editors are concerned you are forcing changes to policy that they disagree with, while you are not adhering to the advice of WP:PG. You have exported your disagreement with long term NPOV to V policy, and refuse to abide by consensus at NPOV. You wrote in part: "such as the fact/opinion distinction, which I disapprove of". You are personally against the intent of long established ASF when you admitted you disapprove of the fact/opinion distinction. Is it your aim to consistently remove ASF? QuackGuru (talk) 22:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It is my aim to improve policy so that it is fair, balanced, useful, and (most importantly) reflective of the principles that are required for constructing a good encyclopedia. what is your aim?  -- Ludwigs 2  23:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)


 * What is my aim? I approve of ASF/NPOV. According to your previous comment you disapprove of the fact/opinion distinction and you decided to remove what you disapproved of. Why do you disapprove of ASF/NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I disapprove of ASF (as I have already said numerous times in discussion), because it's very misleading, subject to a lot of misinterpretation, constantly argued over, and philosophically unsupportable. It's not simple, it's simple-minded, and it gets in the way far more than it helps.  -- Ludwigs 2  16:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The current version is vague and is very misleading. It does not even have the example of an inline qualifier. You deleted the first sentence of ASF that was a summary of the whole section. It was not misleading to explain when there is no serious dispute for a non-controversial statement the text can be asserted without attribution in the text. And when there is a serious disagreement or expressed a value judgement the text can be attributed in the text. You deleted a very clear version and replaced it with confusing, hard to follow text because you are against ASF. You have not explained what was misleading about the previous version. The inline qualifier example made it simple to follow. Do you believe attribution in the text is appropriate when an editor diagrees with a non-controversial statement or when the disagreement is with reliable sources. QuackGuru (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * QuackGuru: you have said this same thing (literally) numerous times already. No one agrees with you.  You can continue to repeat it, endlessly and ever, but no one is likely to agree with you the next 50 times you say it, because no one has agreed with you the last 50 times you said it.  Why you don't seem to recognize that no one agrees with your perspective is a mystery to me, but not a mystery that I am all that interested in understanding.  One of these days (I hope) you will understand that there are other forms of communication aside from making declarations about 'the truth' and telling people that they are wrong.  why don't we take this conversation up again when that day comes?  -- Ludwigs 2  17:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not about 'truth'. This is about asserting the text versus attribution in the text. You reverted another editor who disagrees with you and you have not adequately explained your reason for removing the distinction of fact/opinion when it explained when to assert the text and when not to assert the text. Why do you think NPOV should not explain when to assert non-controversial statements and when to attribute in the text controversial statements. Why did you delete the inline qualifier examples when the inline qualifiers made the "A simple formulation" much clearer. I thought you wanted NPOV to be useful. The fact/opinion distinction is useful to include in NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 18:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, you're just repeating yourself. this is the tenth or twentieth time that you have claimed I "have not adequately explained [my] reason", and every time you've said that I've explained it again, and every time I explain it you claim (again) that I haven't.  Go back and read one of the other twenty times I've explained it; don't post to my talk page again until you have, and can post diffs to my explanations to prove that you have.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Re: Communist terrorism
I think you'll need more than garden shears to prune that article. More like napalm and tactical nuclear weapons. Torinir ( Ding my phone   My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 19:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol - you obviously haven't seen me wield garden shears.  but, yeah...  someone's put a lot of effort into mucking up that article.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * But... but... we need more explosions! Torinir (  Ding my phone   My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 19:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * hmmmmmm... you're beginning to sound a bit like one of those 'communist terrorists'.  Are you now or have you ever been associated with anyone who has ever in casual conversation referred to communism, socialism, Marx, trade unions, welfare, community service, Barack Obama, or (heaven forbid) "Lincoln Logs"?  Place your right hand on the computer display and swear by The Wiki that your answers are true and complete to the best of your knowledge.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:30, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Will placing my hand on my coffee mug work? Torinir ( Ding my phone   My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 05:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

BLPN
Re : Can you back way off, be concise, stick to the topic at hand, avoid making assumptions and comments about others, and generally follow the behavioral guidelines? If so, do so now. --Ronz (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ronz, pardon me for being blunt, but here's the way I see it:
 * You asked a question
 * I gave a detailed and thoughtful response
 * You ignored that response, then (two or three posts later...)
 * You posed the same question to another editor who is more emotionally involved and less experienced than I am
 * That does not strike me as the behavior of someone who is looking to resolve a problem, that strikes me as the behavior of someone who is looking to protract a problem.


 * I'm not going to 'back way off' when the only conceivable result of that is to allow greater latitude for the obfuscation of the issue. If you prefer, I will stop trying to lighten things through humor.  That wouldn't mean that I'd 'back off', it would mean that I would critique your logical and rhetorical errors with systematic precision (as above).  This is supposed to be a reasoned debate, and while I'd prefer to be pleasant about it being reasoned, I will insist on it being reasoned.  If you're taking this conversation seriously, you should not be trying to evade difficult points; you should give an effective response to them, or you should acknowledge that you can't. that's what serious conversations are designed to accomplish.


 * Frankly I get a bit offended when I enter into a conversation with a complete acceptance that I might discover that I'm wrong, but find that that kind of honesty is not reciprocated by others. I will treat you with respect and civility, but that does not extend to indulging an unwillingness to face reason as it arises.  -- Ludwigs 2  23:24, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take that as that you're unable to follow Wikipedia's behavioral guidelines. When you change your mind, let others know. --Ronz (talk) 23:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ronz has been posting the same stuff on my talk page. Ronz is bending WP:AGF beyond its bounds by WP:POT when he accused me of being drunk. Ronz breaks the rules further by speaking in terms of "our" in order to emit the air of authority which he doesn't possess. It implies a feeling of being a Vested Contributor and pseudo-administrator. It's a valid sign of WP:BULLYING, also against the rules. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 00:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Founders, a word of advice: don't get up in arms about it. Ronz is a generally good editor, but when he gets a bee in his bonnet (which he does about certain issues) he can lose perspective.  The less you react to his behavior, the more likely he is to remember correct editing practices and get back in the flow of things.  save the strong language for if and when he really steps over the line.  -- Ludwigs 2  00:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine Ludwig, maybe you haven't received enough personal harassment and threats yet. Enjoy your dealings with this one; never met one like him in all the years I've been here. Over and out. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 00:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I've refactored my question and await an answer. --Ronz (talk) 00:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've explained myself above, and see no reason for any further action. If you do not follow the principles of rational discourse, I will call you on it.  do you have a problem with that?  -- Ludwigs 2  00:58, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You've not addressed my concerns:
 * Can you be concise?
 * Can you stick to the topic at hand?
 * Can you avoid making assumptions and comments about others?
 * Can you generally follow the behavioral guidelines?
 * --Ronz (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ronz, you seem to be under the impression that I need to justify my behavior to you. I don't.  I've been being very tolerant thus far, but your behavior is bordering on user space harassment.  please read that policy.  -- Ludwigs 2  02:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you're not interested in answering, just say it. --Ronz (talk) 02:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there someone you trust to help me work with you? --Ronz (talk) 02:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * heavens... Ronz - I have no problem working with you just as you are. Just keep in mind that you're not dealing with a starry-eyed newb, and measure your behavior accordingly, and we'll get along fine.    -- Ludwigs 2  04:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was worth a try. --Ronz (talk) 14:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What was worth a try? that part where you tried to bully me, or the whole BLP lie that you're running about Barrett? You have no grounds to carry this point on logic, and I'm not stupid enough to get utterly distracted by your laundry list of policy red herrings, so maybe it's time you sat up straight and tried a different (more honest) approach.  how does that sound?  -- Ludwigs 2  15:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was worth a try looking for ways to work with you. Trying to discuss the matter directly with you doesn't appear to work. --Ronz (talk) 16:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * When in fact you actually try to look for ways to work with me, I'll be open to that. However, to date you have:
 * warned me multiple times about mythical BLP issues
 * warned me multiple times about mythical civility issues
 * Tried to browbeat me by making unjustified assertions about my behavior
 * And worst, evaded every effort I have made to have a reasoned discussion with you.
 * So, are you going actually try to work with me now, or are you going to continue in this vein until I'm forced to complain about you at ANI?
 * I'll continue to look for other approaches as needed. You appear to be avoiding interacting with me outside your talk page, which I appreciate.
 * If you'd like to work on settling any of the bulleted items you listed above, let me know. Otherwise, you probably should take them to ANI now. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Avoiding you? why should I need to avoid you when you're posting four or five messages in my userspace per day?    I've just been occupied elsewhere, so I haven't been back to the BLP or FRINGE noticeboards in a day or so.  but don't worry, I'll be back.
 * With respect to my bulleted points - I don't much care. I'm perfectly capable of ignoring you when you step out of line, on wp:AGF grounds.  if you keep it up enough that it starts to truly annoy me then I will take you to ANI for harassment, but I don't see the need to do that right at this moment.  getting close, mind you, but we're not there yet.  I am mostly concerned about getting you to respond properly to reasoned argument.  I mean, you don't have to if you don't want to - I'm in a position where I can legitimately adjust the way Barrett is used in articles (since you've offered no substantive counterargument to the things I've said), and while it would be nice to reach some kind of consensus with you on the matter I'm happy going ahead with it over your objections based on the weight of reason.  I am confident that I can win any sourcing dispute if it comes to that. so it's really just a matter of how you decide you want to play this issue out - stubbornly resistant to the end, or working towards some kind of effective consensus?  up to you.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Purposely avoiding me or not, I appreciate it.

I think it would be helpful to try to settle the bulleted points. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What's to settle?
 * You are aware (I assume) that you templated me about BLP issues - unpleasant per wp:DNTTR.
 * You are aware (I assume) that multiple editors (independent and not) have told you that there is no credible BLP issue here, and yet continued to warn me about it.
 * You are aware (I assume) that you've been warning me about civility issues (I don't know whether you really believe they exist, but you have presented no real evidence of them).
 * You are aware (I assume) that you have been making multiple posts to my talk page that badger me about obvious and common sense editing practices.
 * You are aware (I assume) that you are failing to respond to reasoned points that dispute your position.
 * You are aware (I assume) that you are not an administrator, and thus have no real cause to be warning me about anything.
 * If in fact you are aware of all these points, then you have it in your power to improve your behavior. If you are not aware (or contest) any of these points, please tell me which so we can discuss it in greater detail.  all I really care about is that you (eventually) stop.  If you have some real concern about the way I interact with you, we can discuss that as well.  I'm amenable to most things, so long as you don't insist on anything that would require me to compromise the integrity of the discussion.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * 1 Sorry that you find templates unpleasant. I don't agree with the essay. I added the templates in good faith.
 * 2 The matter is still under discussion at BLPN. If you'd like to go into details here, we can do so.
 * 3 I'm sorry if I've done so. I'm usually very good at adding diffs to any such concerns. Could you provide a diff to the warning(s)?
 * 4 If you find something "badgering" or otherwise problematic, I'm always happy to refactor. If you'll provide diffs, I'll do so now.
 * 5 The matter is still under discussion at BLPN.
 * 6 Let's see how we progress on the other concerns first, since this applies to them all. --Ronz (talk) 19:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ronz, you misunderstood the purpose of my previous post. Whether or not you were aware of these matters before hand, you are now clearly (since you responded to the post) aware that I consider them problematic behaviors, and that you should not engage in them (on my talk page, at least).  If you continue to do so, I will have a clear and unambiguous case for harassment, which is all I was really looking for by continuing this conversation.  Please be respectful from this point on.  -- Ludwigs 2  19:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We're clear: You don't want to discuss the matters.
 * Can we work some compromise or truce? --Ronz (talk) 20:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What did you have in mind? As I said, I don't see a problem here, aside from the fact that you're over-posting to my talk page. why don't you tell me what you need?  -- Ludwigs 2  20:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have anything any specific compromise or truce in mind, yet. I've searched for options on how to work with you, and the outcome is that you don't want to discuss matters. That you're willing to at least entertain a compromise or truce is a bit more hopeful. --Ronz (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't have anything in mind, yet... so in other words, you're simply harassing me without reason?  You come onto my talk page demanding that I "be concise, stick to the topic at hand, avoid making assumptions and comments about others, and generally follow the behavioral guidelines", you make something like 30 or 40 posts to my talk page over the course of 2 days, and then when I ask you what you want you say "I don't have anything in mind, yet"?  WTF??!!  Can you think of a reason why I shouldn't report you for harassment right this instant?  -- Ludwigs 2  20:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:DR suggests considering "negotiating a truce or compromise." I've already asked if you could suggest an editor that could work with us both. I wanted to get some idea if it was worth pursuing further. --Ronz (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said, I don't see a problem here, except as I've clearly outlined above. you apparently do see a problem, but have not yet clearly expressed what that problem is.  If you really want to pursue this, then I suggest we open a mutual wp:Wikiquette and elicit responses from people there.  It'll be a novel use of wikiquette, but I think it'll work.  shall we do that?  -- Ludwigs 2  21:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I think we're done here. The problems go far beyond simple wikiquette. I wish we could have worked something out. --Ronz (talk) 21:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So, in other words you're not really interested in working things out? I think wikiquette would be a good start, personally - we could always advance to something more serious if wikiquette fails.  I think we should give it a try!  -- Ludwigs 2  21:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

You've refused to discuss the matters here, right? --Ronz (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC) You've refused to discuss the matters here.
 * Wrong. I've discussed them fully and clearly.  I've given you the opportunity to discuss them as well, but you don't "have anything any specific compromise or truce in mind".  You won't even explain to me what exactly the problem you're seeing is, so I'm stuck.  Basically I've been sitting here listening to you have a conversation with yourself in which I am just an object, wondering how I can get your attention sufficiently to raise myself to subject status so we can actually have a conversation.  It's amusing, in a philosophical sort of way.   -- Ludwigs 2  21:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Then please respond to my numbered responses to you. --Ronz (talk) 22:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They don't call for a response. As long as you are aware of the issues, then I see no reason to discuss them further, as I trust that your good conscience will lead you to make correct decisions in the future.  -- Ludwigs 2  22:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Then you won't mind me commenting on them further? Maybe I'll say something that you will want to respond to, and we can make some progress. --Ronz (talk) 22:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think they need further commenting, feel free. as I said, I'm open to any reasonable discussion, and I'm curious to figure out what problem you're actually trying to address here.  -- Ludwigs 2  22:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear. I'm trying to address your concerns first.

1 I don't agree with the essay, and I added templates in good faith. If you ask, I'll refactor any template. I believe my approach fits all applicable policies and guidelines, and then some.

2 The matter is still under discussion at BLPN. If you'd like to go into details here, we can do so. There's very little consensus so far. So, you'd best interpret my response as a no. In light of WP:CON, WP:TALK, and WP:DR, the only argument I see along those lines is (15:54, 25 Oct). I've responded in detail to it.

3 No, I'm not aware of such warnings. I'm sorry if I've done so. If you cannot point them out, I'll assume that your claim is in error.

4 Nothing I've written was meant to "badger" you in any way. If you're not willing to point out the specific problems so I can refactor them, then I consider the matter closed. --Ronz (talk) 22:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC) Wikipolitcs  You're good, Ronz. The question is whether you're good enough. as I said, it's interesting. -- Ludwigs 2 23:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) well, as of now you are quite aware that I don't like it and consider it rude. You are of course free to continue doing it, but if you ignore my preferences in this matter I will take it as a sign of personal disrespect.
 * No, it's not still under discussion. It's just you, stubbornly fending off reasoned argument from a number of different editors.  Not even Guy is helping you beyond that one post, and I know he has pro-science leanings.
 * 1) If you don't consider your repeated statements at the top of this thread - the ones where you accuse me of violating various talk page guidelines - to be warnings, and if you don't consider the voluminous and aggressive posts you've made to this page in the last couple of days to be badgering, then I don't know what to tell you. I know for a fact that if I had posted anything half as aggressive in your talk you'd have deleted it out of hand with a warning about civility (I know that, because you've done it to me in the past).  In the future, if you're going to accuse me of violating talk page principles, you'd best back it up with some kind of concrete statement about what it is that you don't like.  don't come here and demand that I conform to some guideline that I have not in fact violated.
 * No disrespect is intended. The perception is all yours it seems.
 * That is your perception.
 * Until you can provide diffs, quotes, etc... Again, this could just be a problem with perception.
 * 6 Not according to WP:Admin.
 * Doesn't seem like we're making any progress. --Ronz (talk) 00:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure we are. You've now made it clear that you're going to do what you like regardless of what I think.  that's something anyway.  -- Ludwigs 2  00:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, that's your perception.
 * Of course, none of these concerns of yours are based upon Wikipedia policies or guidelines. None of them are based upon good faith evaluations of the situations either. Further, you appear unable to follow them yourself. Despite all this, you repeatedly threaten me with these concerns.
 * Amidst all this discussion, I think you've addressing my initial concerns:
 * You haven't been concise.
 * You change topics regularly.
 * You regularly make assumptions of others. In doing so, you tend to violate multiple behavioral policies and guidelines.
 * You regularly make comments about others, again violating behavioral policies and guidelines.
 * Time for you to erase all this. I don't want you digging yourself any deeper.
 * I've marked the FTN discussion as stuck. The BLPN continues to be disrupted, so I'll be working to wrap it as well. --Ronz (talk) 04:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And I'll remark it. there's no stuckness there at all, just stubbornness.  as for the rest...  have a nice day!    -- Ludwigs 2  04:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I've removed your claim that the dispute is resolved. Please do not misrepresent discussions so. If you're unable change your behavior from what's demonstrated in the above discussion, you need to be very cautious when trying to summarize others' comments. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've changed the summary to "No consensus." I hope that represents the situation accurately and neutrally. --Ronz (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * that is an incorrect assessment. you have not provided any reason for raising the BLP concern that have not been adequately disposed of, despite being asked to do so multiple times.  sorry, but if you don't want to explain yourself, you don't get to claim 'no consensus'.  I'll change it back now.  -- Ludwigs 2  17:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry if you think mine was not a correct assessment. I want an assessment that can be agreed upon by all. Can you think of a compromise? --Ronz (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a compromise being worked out on the Fringe page discussion about how to use Barrett. I'm on board with that.  I don't see a way to compromize on the BLP issue.  you made a claim that there was a BLP issue, it has roundly been refuted - what's to compromise on?  You made a mistake, you should let it go.  it happens.  -- Ludwigs 2  17:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do not edit war over the BLP/N thread closing
Ludwigs2, please do not edit war over this. Another editor has come back to revert you and I wont revert again because it is not worth it, though I agree with your assessment. As a side note, it appears that Ronz is in conversation about you with the other editor who stepped in to help him. See here.Griswaldo (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. I've opened and ANI thread about it here. Check it out. -- Ludwigs 2  18:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

tb
Basket of Puppies 05:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Government in Exile Cabal case
Hello Ludgwigs, as you required, I have done my job. --SH9002 (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * lol - it wasn't a requirement. if you had decided you didn't want to participate, that would have been perfectly fine, and I'd have closed the cabal case.  so please don't eel obligated.  but since you've had the grace to make a response, let me look it over and see if I can summarize the dispute effectively.  -- Ludwigs 2  15:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

ANI
I know, just haven't had anything to say yet. I'm watching. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 01:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. I just thought that you'd want to know, if only because your name has popped up a couple of times in the discussion.  -- Ludwigs 2  01:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 02:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, I just thought you and the others might be interested in the fact that Ronz is leaving. He hasn't decided to leave permanently but ... wouldn't it be a shame to lose a long term editor like him?  I saw the AN/i as you know and I don't think he should be chased off the site.  What do you think?  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  17:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have no interest in chasing anyone off the site, and I'll happily state that over at the ANI discussion if you think it would help. All I really care about is that the experience I had with Ronz over the last week or so doesn't happen again, because it was tremendously unpleasant.  If there's a third outcome - one where he doesn't leave and no one has to suffer through that kind of thing again - that would (in my opinion) be tubular.  -- Ludwigs 2  17:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not trying to chase anyone off, but not looking to support a potential sympathy ploy either. Ronz is so slick it's almost impossible to tell. But I won't back down on some kind of block (as I suggested in ANI). -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 18:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Our problems are solved, Ronz prommised to never do anything wrong again. I'm celebrating. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 00:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I was responding because Chronie was talking about me. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 23:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, but it's not something that you need to deal with (it's just a talk page comment), and I really would prefer to have that conversation without it spreading out into a multi-person debacle. I appreciate it.  -- Ludwigs 2  00:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay fine. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE GOOD WORKS 03:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm a test message!
Per request. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you!  -- Ludwigs 2  19:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Infobox
Hi. With regard to this discussion, could you help in this, please? Kind regards. Rehman(+) 07:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Solved: Found a solution; to use subclassing. Thanks for your time. Rehman(+) 11:19, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

NPOV Questions
You seem busy, so I'll just slide these into your field of vision and see if they catch priority status.


 * I renamed the somewhat awkward "Handling neutrality and disputes" to "Handling neutrality disputes". Does that section title make sense


 * Do the renamed section headers need to be {anchored}?
 * I combined the pseudoscience and religion sections under a common header, but I could use experienced hands to contextualize them. As it stands, the two named sections beg the question--why those, and why not the rest?


 * Should the history section be rewritten as a paragraph rather than a list?


 * Can we get rid of the Notes section by incorporating or eliminating the two footnotes?


 * What does it mean in the Intro that NPOV is expected of "of all articles and all editors"... Does that mean editors must be NPOV in their advocacy? I think this phrasing is either implicitly redundant or vaguely overbroad. Can we clarify, or is it alright as is?


 * Can we pick a less SAT style word than obfuscate? ("While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community.") I prefer language which an average reader won't need a dictionary for. Can we say it more simply?


 * You mentioned cleaning up the FAQ. I did the copy-editing, but we still have a big hunk of ASF lingering there.  I don't think we should cut it until we clarify policy a bit more and run through an RfC.  What do you think about the status of the page.  Why so much silence (QG aside).


 * Someone over at WP:V mentioned a desire to combine the three core policies onto a single page for simplicity and to prevent conflicts between them. I thought that put too many valuable things in one place, but the idea of simply transcluding key policies into a single page for reference/new users intrigued me.  Any thoughts? Ocaasi (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Price comments, exuberant, etc.
Hi Ludwigs,

I realize there's been some back and forth on the 'high-praise' edits, but there's also a discussion on the Talk page. Would you chime in on it? Ocaasi (talk) 06:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

==  Schyler has given you a lollipop! This horrible pun and delicious candy promotes WikiLove and tells the world how low you will stoop for the sake of humor. Spread WikiLove by giving someone else a lollipop, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

Spread the unrelenting joy of lollipops by adding {{subst:Lollipop}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message!

==

Hey ludwigs! I got this on my talk page and thought it good to play along. I always find your answers on the RD to be helpful and find it fun to among people like youself helping otehrs with questions they have about life. Have a great day! schyler (talk) 21:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Please help with the Apple Inc. collaboration
Monomium (talk) 03:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

You're being discussed at AE…
here.

Don’t worry, nobody’s accusing you of having done anything wrong. This thread is mostly just more accusations of wrongdoing from Mathsci against the editors that he disagrees with, this time being directed at me as well as two fairly new editors. But one of the new people has apparently read several of the arbitration pages, and is taking some of the advice that you offered about Mathsci there to heart.

I’ve also referred there to the circumstances under which you first got involved in the race and intelligence article, based on what I can remember about it. I don’t think I’ve misremembered this—I looked at your contributions from 2009 to make sure—but you can correct me if I have. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, Ludwigs2, I read Mathsci's suggestion to you, at the cited request for enforcement, to visit the request for enforcement about Collect entirely as a friendly suggestion. I read what Mathsci wrote as saying that he appreciated your contribution to the discussion at Communist terrorism as very helpful and as a sign that you have something helpful to contribute to the discussion at the  the Collect enforcement case. If I am making a correct inference from my life experience among my real-world neighbors and relatives and co-workers, what is happening here is an acknowledgement on Mathsci's part of one of your good deeds in the presence of the editing community, and an expression that bygones can be bygones and he can commend your participation to other editors in the future. Perhaps some editors in the referenced place can learn from the examples of the more experienced editors, which is certainly something I would be glad to do. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Question
Hi Ludwig. As I said in the AE thread, I've read a lot of your comments during the R&I arbcom case, and some of what you wrote there seemed pretty insightful- I've learned a lot about how Wikipedia works from reading the case. One thing I'm curious about is, why did you stop editing in this area after the end of arbitration? It seems like your skills and fortitude would still be quite useful there.-SightWatcher (talk) 19:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Because I said I would, and I prefer to keep my word on things like that. The reason I said I would stop editing in that topic area is that I had developed too much personal anger towards Mathsci: I couldn't easily (at that time) edit cooperatively with him and maintain a detached reasonable manner.  Unfortunate, yes, but I wasn't likely to do much good for the article if I lost my temper every time I crossed swords with him.  I figure 6 months to a year is a good time frame to let things de-jangle - we'll see.  -- Ludwigs 2  20:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Red flags?
I discussed this on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Why is carrying on a debate on my talk page a red-flag? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Particularly when you have "I reserve the right to delete any material form this talk page without discussion." on your own talk page. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * it's not a wp:red flag - it's a red flag for me personally. I made a reasonable comment: had you discussed the matter, or even told me you got the point but I should mind my own business, I'd have let it drop.  deleting it without comment, however, makes me believe that you know that it was a POV-pushing moment and you don't care - that's something that needs investigation.  I want to make sure that you're not trying to de-Chistianize JW across the project.  If you're not, you'll likely never hear from me again, and all is well; if you are, expect me to correct it.  good enough?  -- Ludwigs 2  16:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * P.s. and I would never delete something from my talk without comment (mostly because if I'm annoyed enough by something to delete it, I'll have a nice juicy comment to make about it ) -- Ludwigs 2 16:27, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Communist terrorism
Probably best to request semiprotection in view of the two recent disruptive edits by IPs. (The first was Mikemikev.) Mathsci (talk) 16:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * that might be a good idea, I'll do it. interesting, though - why would mikemikev be ip-bogarting over at Communist Terrorism?  that seems outside of his normal interests.  -- Ludwigs 2  16:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It is odd. But he used the same IP while editing as . Mathsci (talk) 17:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeesh. please do me a favor: If I ever become obsessed enough with wikipedia to use sock puppets, hire someone to put me out of my misery...  -- Ludwigs 2  17:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In those highly unlikely circumstances, I would suggest a quite different scenario. You would be tied back-to-back to BullRangifer and dropped by helicopter onto a raft in the River Colorado, the ensuing events to be broadcast live on wikitelevision, with voice-over by . Mathsci (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hah! that would almost be worth it.    -- Ludwigs 2  22:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, making a couple of sock puppets to take the piss (in a well sourced manner) hardly qualifies as obsessed. This on the other hand... Anyway, it wouldn't be difficult to drop under the radar here, should I decide to bother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.18.110 (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You know (if you'll pardon to philosophy) this is a motif that's played out in every community, pretty much since the dawn of time. You have some people who want to be citizens in the community, and you have others who want to be anonymous outsiders.  Being a citizen means you have a consistent identity (or on wikipedia, a consistent pseudonym), which means that you take your lumps when you do wrong and you earn trust and respect when you do right, and you work with others on a level playing field to do whatever it is that needs to get done in the community.  Anonymous outsiders are the proverbial barbarian hordes, and like barbarian hordes everywhere they cannot contribute to the community unless they settle down and become citizens - they might do a good thing here or a good thing there (barbarians are often much more sophisticated than citizens give them credit for), but so long as they try to maintain independence and anonymity they can't help but be disruptive or destructive.


 * look up the word 'regard' in the dictionary: it means simultaneously 'to look at', 'to have a relation to', and 'to esteem'. When Mathsci does something objectionable, at least he has a consistent persona to criticize: I can bitch him out roundly and still have regard for him because he is willing to stick by his persona in the community.  If you want to hide behind an IP and make contentious edits, well...  you're just another bloody Visigoth.   it's impossible to regard you, since you reject your name in the community and hide from criticism and punishment.  If you want regard, you need to have a name and you need to stick by it; that's just the nature of the beast.  If you don't, the best you can hope for is to be tolerated.  You should consider that thoroughly.


 * This philosophical moment brought to you by a grant from the Exxon Foundation, and by the letter 'R'. -- Ludwigs 2  15:26, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, so I'm a "Visigoth". How absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.18.110 (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, yeah, it is. I don't know why you want to hide behind an IP rather than stick with an identity; what's the advantage?  -- Ludwigs 2  16:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It helps avoid people like this and this. Surely a family resemblance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by StudiousBob (talk • contribs) 16:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, this is the choice you get to make - whether to stand up and be a member of the community or 'avoid' through anonymity and be an outsider. I mean, I do understand - being a member of the community means that you have to work with others and listen to others, even others you don't particularly like, and that inevitably leads to conflict/compromise or other forms of ego-bruising limitations. That is in the nature of a community.  But you can't have your cake and eat it too: if you want to have regard in the community (which I assume you do, or you wouldn't still be editing here) you have to give some of your own independence and play within the rules set down by the community. If you don't want to do that, you will simply be disregarded by the community and you will find yourself, well...  pretty much where you are now: an IP running around on the outskirts of the community, viewed with mild annoyance by most established editors and with deep suspicion on the topic areas you're most interested in working on.  -- Ludwigs 2  17:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * That's fine. But please don't play the WP/Last Bastion of Human Civilization shell game. This place is just another MediaSpewTM outlet, slimed by the usual suspects. If you want to pretend you're more civilized for "respecting" these people you're welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by StudiousBob (talk • contribs) 11:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Dude, you're not getting it. it's always a game: here, in the real world, everywhere, no matter what you're doing or what perspective you take.  I am not suggesting you be a citizen because that reflects some 'civilized truth' that needs to be defended.  I'm suggesting you be a citizen because that game (ultimately) is more pleasant, productive, and satisfying than the game of being an independent outsider.  "This place is just another MediaSpewTM outlet" is your game - a moral claim that gives you a certain self-image, establishes a certain set of interrelations with others, and serves as an innate justification for the actions you choose to take.  it's not any more or any less 'real' than my imagined civil community, and the only real difference between the two games is aesthetic: my imagined world (while not perfect) is nicer and more peaceful than your imagined world.  -- Ludwigs 2  12:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

my imagined world (while not perfect) is nicer and more peaceful than your imagined world. LOL —Preceding unsigned comment added by StudiousBob (talk • contribs) 12:55, 4 December 2010 (UTC)