User talk:LynnWysong/Sandbox2

Origins and dispersal
The first mustangs descended from horses brought to Mexico by the Spanish. Some of these horses were sold, escaped or were captured by Native Americans who quickly adopted the horse as a primary means of transportation. Horses replaced the dog as a travois puller and greatly improved success in battles, trade and hunts, particularly bison hunts. Native Americans rapidly spread horses by trade and other means throughout the Great Plains, the Columbia River Basin and much of the Southwestern United States (excluding, for the most part, the Great Basin ) where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in Texas. Later mustangs, mostly in the Great Basin, descended from settlers horses that were allowed to run free on the public rangelands (range) to be captured as the ranchers needed them for sale or use.

In the second paragraph of chapter 11 of America's Last Wild Horses, Hope Ryden stated<--this is unencyclopedic style--> that tribes in the Great Basin also maintained horses. '''Comment: Were there any wild horses in the Great Basin? If yes, the following sentences in this para are not related to the article and should be deleted. Answer: at this point we're just talking about where the Indians dispersed the horses. For the most part, the wild horses in the Great Basin were brought in later by white settlers. Really, the only reason I've put this in is to give the alternate viewpoint-that all wild horse herds started out from Spanish stock. I'm not that attached to it.''' The tribes she specifically mentioned, the  Utes, the  Navajo, and the Apaches, either were not  indigenous to the Great Basin, or, as in the case of the Utes, were indigenous to the eastern fringe, mostly occupying portions of what are today eastern Utah, western Colorado, <--Ryden is not the best source for which tribes had horses, and frankly, by the 1700s, most did-->`

====Capture and husbandry==== The first mustangs descended from Iberian horses brought to Mexico and Florida. Some of these horses were sold, escaped or were captured by Native Americans, and rapidly spread by trade and other means throughout western North America. '''Comment: I have left this in because it seems to be supported by suitable sources. Answer: These sentences were moved to the section above and modified.'''

Native Americans quickly adopted the horse as a primary means of transportation. Horses replaced the dog as a travois puller and greatly improved success in battles, trade and hunts, particularly bison hunts.

"Mustang runners" were usually cowboys in the U.S. and vaqueros or mesteñeros in Mexico who caught, broke and drove free-ranging horses to market in the Spanish and later Mexican, and still later American territories of what is now Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the Great Plains and the San Joaquin Valley of California, and later in the Great Basin, from the 18th to the early 20th century.

In the 1800s, horses belonging to explorers, traders and settlers that escaped or were purposely released, joined the gene pool of Spanish-descended herds. It was also common practice for western ranchers to release their horses to forage for themselves in the winter and then recapture them in the spring, along with any additional mustangs. Some ranchers also attempted to "improve" wild herds by shooting the dominant stallions and replacing them with pedigreed stallions.

Numbers Rise and Fall
Some sources (Ryden, page 129; Walker, page 91) say that millions of mustangs once roamed in western North America. According to historian J. Frank Dobie "No scientific estimates of their numbers was made...My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West." During the late 1800s, most of these were were caught, tamed and moved north and east. "Mustang runners" were usually cowboys in the U.S. and vaqueros or mesteñeros in Mexico who caught, broke and drove free-ranging horses to market in the Spanish and later Mexican, and still later American territories of what is now Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the Great Plains and the San Joaquin Valley of California, and later in the Great Basin, from the 18th to the early 20th century. By 1934, there was just "a few wild horses in Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states" on the range.

Legislation
As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use, and after decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed. Upon passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act federal land management agencies, that were issuing permits for the grazing of cattle and sheep on the range, told ranchers they must remove their horses because they were competing for the forage. Many ranchers left their horses on the range, and the predecessor of the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the US Forest Service began to round them up by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses. During culls, abuses linked to certain killing methods (e.g. hunting from airplanes and poisoning) led to the first federal wild free-roaming horse protection law in 1959. This statute, known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act", prohibited the use of motor vehicles for hunting wild horses. Protection was increased further by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971. From that time to the present, the BLM is the primary authority that oversees the protection and management of mustang herds on public lands, while the United States Forest Service administers additional wild horse or burro territories.

Clean Version
I pretty much took the "Capture and husbandry" section, and dispersed it through two of the other ones. I think it flows a lot better now. If you agree with the gist of what I've done here, please make comments below.Lynn Wysong (talk) 01:29, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Origins and dispersal
The first mustangs descended from horses brought to Mexico by the Spanish. Some of these horses escaped or were sold to Native Americans, but for the most part they were captured in raids on Spanish settlements by the Native Americans who quickly adopted the horse as a primary means of transportation. Horses replaced the dog as a travois puller and greatly improved success in battles, trade and hunts, particularly bison hunts. Native Americans rapidly spread horses by trade and other means throughout the Great Plains, the Columbia and Colorado River basins and present day California where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in the southern Great Plains, where the J. Frank Dobie stated the: Spanish horses found "...American ranges corresponding in climate and soil to the arid lands of Spain, northern Africa and Arabia in which they originated".  However, in 1934, Dobie stated there was just "a few wild [feral] horses in [[Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states" remaining.  It was unclear if he meant "spanish" mustangs, or the later generation of mustangs discussed in the next paragraph in general, but Anthony Amaral also stated that, "the true mustang of pure Spanish origin was...almost gone" by 1900."

Although large numbers of mustangs were documented in the warmer and relatively moister arid regions of the Western U.S. in the early to mid 1800s, the paucity of them was documented in the colder desert regions during that same time period. There are no known documented early sightings of mustangs in the eastern part of the Great Basin (the Lake Bonneville basin in Utah). Jedediah Smith, in his 1827 trek across the Great Basin saw "some horse sign" along the West Walker River, but did not mention any other such sightings The first known sighting of a horse in the Great Basin was by John Bidwell near the Humboldt Sinks in 1841. In 1861, another party saw seven free-roaming horses near the Stillwater Range. All three of these sightings were along the western edge of the Great Basin in Nevada, but for the most part, mustangs herds in Nevada were established from escaped settlers' horses (most notably draft horses ). In the 21st century, most mustangs are found in the inhospitable desert regions of the Great Basin and the Red Desert of Wyoming. , where ranchers allowed their horses to run free on the public rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use.

Abundance
Some sources (Ryden, page 129; Walker, page 91) say that millions of mustangs once roamed in western North America. According to historian J. Frank Dobie the population would have peaked about the end of the Mexican-American War in 1848, but "No scientific estimates of their numbers was made...My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West." During the late latter part of the 1800s, most of these were were caught, tamed and moved north and east. "Mustang runners" were usually cowboys in the U.S. and vaqueros or mesteñeros in Mexico who caught, tamed and drove free-ranging horses to market in the Spanish and later Mexican, and still later American territories of what is now Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the Great Plains and the San Joaquin Valley of California, and later in the Great Basin, from the 18th to the early 20th century. By 1934, there was just "a few wild [feral] horses in Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states" on the range. Another estimate is that in the same year, there were approximately 150,000 wild feral horses on public land in the 11 Western States.

Legislation
As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use. After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed and led to the passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act. The federal land management agencies that were issuing permits for the grazing of cattle and sheep on the range, told ranchers they must remove their horses because they were competing for the forage. Many ranchers left their horses on the range, and the predecessor of the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the US Forest Service began to round them up by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses. During culls, abuses linked to certain killing methods (e.g. hunting from airplanes and poisoning) led to the first federal wild free-roaming horse protection law in 1959. This statute, known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act", prohibited the use of motor vehicles for hunting wild horses. Protection was increased further by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971. From that time to the present, the BLM is the primary authority that oversees the protection and management of mustang herds on public lands, while the United States Forest Service administers additional wild horse or burro territories.

Comments
I have made a few minor tweaks to the passage for readability. I have removed the underlines and strike-throughs as we can now follow progress through the "view history" function. One thing which needs attention are the references - these should be in the appropriate style.__DrChrissy (talk) 14:46, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Right. I just wanted to make sure there was no objection to the rearrangement before I spent much time on the details.Lynn Wysong (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding: It is unclear if Dobie was referring to just horses of Spanish descent when he wrote "a few" but by 1934, most of the 150,000 mustangs estimated to be on the range were descended from rancher's horses.  I find this sentence confusing. Aren't all mustangs descendants of the Spanish horses? That is what the previous paragraph of text suggests. In any case, such a statement requires a citation.__DrChrissy (talk) 12:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC) Apologies - I have just realised there is a citation.__DrChrissy (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * No. That's what I've been trying to express.  In the Great Basin, there were very few wild horses of Spanish descent.  If you look at the map in this reference:  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1938.40.3.02a00060/pdf, It shows a large blank spot in the western U.S.  It's blank because, there are basically no rivers or other major sources of water.  That's the Great Basin.  It's a desert.  The Indians that lived there couldn't keep horses-they had to range too large of areas to get enough forage. There were no buffalo there either.  It wasn't until white settlers came and developed water sources that allowed livestock to range large areas that it could support horses.  So, there were very few Spanish horses in the Great Basin.  In 1827, Jedediah Smith saw some horse sign by Walker Lake (Nevada), and there may some herds elsewhere along the fringes, but for the most part, all the mustangs (wild horses, feral horses) in the Great Basin (where about half the mustangs are currently located) descend from the horses the settlers brought with them-not from the Spanish horses that went feral elsewhere in the West.  That's what it means in the previous paragraph by:  "Later mustangs herds, mostly in the Great Basin, descended from settlers' horses that were allowed to run free on the public rangelands to be captured as the ranchers needed them for sale or use."  So, if you can think of a way to make it less confusing, please try. If you think it just needs explanation like I just gave, we can do that-I have the sources.  Lynn Wysong (talk) 15:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Insert what you want to include in the "Clean Version" above along with the sources, then other editors and I can look and see what to do. Just one comment - I thought there were no wild horses in the US in modern times - The article states " However, the genus Equus in North America died out at the end of the last ice age around 10-12 thousand years ago, possibly due to a changing climate or the impact of newly arrived human hunters.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "wild horses" "mustangs" "feral horses" are used pretty much interchangeably. Technically you're right, there's no "wild" horses, but that term is used for feral horses a lot-more as in "domestic horses gone wild".  I'll mess with it some more.  Lynn Wysong (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "Mustangs" is the best word to refer specifically to the free-roaming horses of the west. They are feral, they are not "wild", but politically "wild" is a nice romantic word for PR purposes, plus it was the language Congress used in the 1971 Act, when the issue was less about science than history. (Similarly, Congress calls Native people "Indians" because that was the word used 200 years ago, even though that word is emotionally loaded today and not preferred by many Native Americans) Also, there is a faction on the fringe (see WP:FRINGE) who is trying to prove that the horse never became extinct and thus there is a trace of ancient wild horse ancestry, so as to support the idea that it is a "native" species.  However, there is precisely zero, zip and zilch evidence for this, thus most "wild horse" advocates that support the idea of horses being "native" to North America tend to prefer viewing modern ones as a "reintroduced" species derived from European stock.  Montanabw (talk)  20:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe a bit off topic, but I agree with you that the there is no evidence horses never went extinct.Lynn Wysong (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Um, double-negative there confusing the issue. I hope that meant that you agree that the horse DID become extinct in North America for 10,000 years prior to the return of the horse with the Spanish.   Montanabw (talk)  22:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Returning to the sentence " It is unclear if Dobie was referring to just horses of Spanish descent when he wrote "a few" but by 1934, most of the 150,000 mustangs estimated to be in the 11 Western States where they could still be found were descended from rancher's horses." I have looked at the source and in my opinion, this only supports "...in 1934 there were an estimated 150,000 wild horses on public land in the 11 Western States."  As far as I can see, it states nothing about Dobie and the clarity of his/her writing, and it states nothing about the ancestry of these 150,000 horses.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The source, the Taylor Grazing Act "book", talks about the horses being "rancher's" horses and how they went feral because the ranchers didn't want to pay the grazing fee. It's not on omission on the part of the author to say they weren't Spanish, it's an assumption on the part of the reader that they were.  There are no sources that say there were Spanish horses where most of the mustangs are currently located.  That being said "a few" remaining herds were Spanish, and that is why a few of the BLM herds are noted for their Spanish ancestry.  But, for the most part, today's mustangs simply descend from horses brought west by American settlers.  However, in TEXAS, ranchers did use the Spanish horses, and some of the breeds from that region, most notably the quarter horse, did result from crosses of Spanish horses to horses brought from the East.  I believe that led to the misconception that ranchers in the Great Basin and other desert regions where horses are now found did also.Lynn Wysong (talk) 22:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That is an example of the WP:SYNTH problem I have been repeatedly raising with you, Wysong, you don't have proper sources for these assumptions you are making.  Montanabw (talk)  20:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe this comment is inappropriate for a sandbox page. Content discussion does not have to meet the same standards as the content.Lynn Wysong (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this amount of detail is simply confusing the issue. We are talking about one sentence.  How many mustangs were there in 1934?  We are not talking about today's mustangs, or particular States, or quarter horses, or horses brought from the East.  Please understand, address my concerns directly or I am soon to leave trying to help you. If you do not like my edit, change it, and we can go from there, but discursive tangential comments are frustrating.__DrChrissy (talk) 23:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You didn't ask a direct question. You said "and it states nothing about the ancestry of these 150,000 horses".  The number seemed pretty clear, it was the ancestry that I thought was in question, due to your previous comment.  It took me a while to compile the sources to clarify that concern, and insert it in the preceding section.Lynn Wysong (talk) 01:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I do appreciate your input here. Sometimes, when you are too close to a subject, a statement whose derivation seems obvious to the author is not so obvious to the reader.  Lynn Wysong (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * What is the difference between a "Spanish mustang" and "mustangs in general"?__DrChrissy (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Anthony Amaral put it this way: "During those prime native-grass days in the regions beyond the Mississippi, the terms "wild horse,"  "mustang" "Mexican horse" and "California horse" referred to horses that carried full measures of Spanish blood...(but later) the term "mustang" remained to mean any wild horse-including the horse of mixed origin that came to inhabit Nevada."  (pages 10-13)  So, when someone uses term "mustang" or "wild horse", it's important to know the context in which they are saying it to determine if the are talking about "Spanish" mustangs or the ones of mixed origin that came later.  This could probably be clarified in the "Etymology and usage" section.Lynn Wysong (talk) 17:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The definition has changed dramatically since Amaral wrote. Today, each herd in a herd management area (HMA) has had a lot of history done on it and the degree of Colonial Spanish breeding has been assessed.  We need to find these DNA studies and discuss them.  Sponenberg and Cothran have done much of that work (separately), some of it is probably on the BLM web site.  There are Mustang herds that are not of very much Spanish ancestry and there are horses of Spanish ancestry that are not Mustangs (notably breeds like the Marsh Tacky or Florida Cracker horse and the feral and semi-feral horses on the barrier islands of the east coast).   Montanabw (talk)  22:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC) (signed late, whoops)
 * If you want to open up another thread to rework the Ancestry Section of the article, feel free. But I think it would clutter up this section too much to try to bring that into here.  I well know that there are herds out there that still show a lot of Spanish blood, but that's what makes them unique-because most don't.  I don't think that Marsh Tackys or Florida Crackers qualify as mustangs, since they did not develop in the West.Lynn Wysong (talk) 21:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't say they did, I said there are Colonial Spanish Horses that are not Mustangs. I have no real interest in collaborating here as anything I have proposed you reject out of hand too, so there is really no sense of beating my head against the wall in a sandbox.   Montanabw (talk)  22:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. Anyway, I really have no interest in whether or not you write about Colonial Spanish horses.  I'm not even sure why you brought that up. It looks like they have their own  Wikipedia article.  Doesn't seem inappropriate to mention it in this one, but I'm not going to enter into that hornet's nest.  So, again, feel free.Lynn Wysong (talk) 00:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * There is a lot of writing in the style of "Expert foo says, '[insert very long quote here]'" I find that style problematic.  I also am concerned that the sources used here are of very poor quality - Amaral wrote in the 1970s, much has changed since then.  The definitive experts on Mustangs today are probably D. Phillip Sponenberg and Gus Cothran (they don't always agree with each other).  Hope Ryden is useful for some of the history on the Act, but like Amaral, she did much of her work in the 1970s, with some updates since, but she is a historian more than a scientist. We need to use material from the BLM as well as from wild horse advocacy sites, and we need to use recent material as well.  In short, I don't see a lot of improvements to the existing article, I merely see changes that are not improvements.  However, in a spirit of trying to work with this situation, I have looked at the article, but in edit view, it is too much of a challenge to cut through the underlining and strikeout; that's a technique better suited for short  sections that will not have edits over the top of edits, at this point, it would be better to just edit this straight and when refined, to propose particular language for each section or particular ideas for rearrangement at the Mustang talk page. My absence at this page does not imply that I approve or disapprove of its content, merely that I will save my energy for actual article proposals there (which could include, "can we add section X as rewritten at the sandbox?)  Montanabw (talk)  20:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * If you want to use Sponenberg and Cothran in other sections, that's fine, but I hardly think you can justify the fact that the history sources used to write the history were written some 40 to 80 years ago is problematic unless there's been dramatic new information that would invalidate them. I hardly think that what Sponenberg and Cothran are doing qualifies as that. This is an example of what Sponenberg writes:  http://www.centerforamericasfirsthorse.org/north-american-colonial-spanish-horse.html  There is virtually no history there. Lynn Wysong (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * History is not static, new research and new data provide a new view on the past. But more to the point, I'm not really interested in addressing your OR and Synth, which the above has in large quantities.  If you can't be bothered to look up Sponenberg's outstanding work and that of the BLM on defining what these horses are, then you really are not here to improve the encyclopedia.  Do read WP:NOTHERE.   Montanabw (talk)  22:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, while that's a decent summary web page, you need to find more appropriate sources in your searches:  I am not going to do your research for you.   Montanabw (talk)  22:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Whatever.Lynn Wysong (talk) 00:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, and BTW, you know on your sandbox page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Montanabw/Spanish_horses_sandbox, you link to one of my webpages, that I put up over ten years ago? I'm not new to this game.Lynn Wysong (talk) 01:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Origins and dispersal
The first mustangs descended from horses brought to Mexico by the Spanish. Some of these horses escaped or were sold to Native Americans, but for the most part they were captured in raids on Spanish settlements by the Native Americans who quickly adopted the horse as a primary means of transportation. Horses replaced the dog as a travois puller and greatly improved success in battles, trade and hunts, particularly bison hunts. Native Americans rapidly spread horses by trade and other means throughout the Great Plains, the Columbia and Colorado River basins and present day California. . where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in the southern Great Plains. There is where historian J. Frank Dobie stated the Spanish horses found the: "...American ranges corresponding in climate and soil to the arid lands of Spain, northern Africa and Arabia in which they originated". However, he stated that as of 1934, there were just "a few wild [feral] horses in Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states" remaining. It was unclear if he meant the original Spanish mustangs, or the later generation of mustangs discussed in the next paragraph, but other sources agree that by that time, only "pockets" of "Spanish" mustangs remained.

Although large numbers of mustangs were documented in the warmer and relatively moister arid regions of the Western U.S. in the early to mid 1800s, the paucity of them was documented in the colder desert regions during that same time period. There are no known documented early sightings of mustangs in the eastern part of the Great Basin (the Lake Bonneville basin in Utah). Jedediah Smith, in his 1827 trek across the Great Basin saw "some horse sign" along the West Walker River, but did not mention any other such sightings The first known sighting of a horse in the Great Basin was by John Bidwell near the Humboldt Sinks in 1841. In 1861, another party saw seven free-roaming horses near the Stillwater Range. All three of these sightings were along the western edge of the Great Basin in Nevada, but for the most part, mustangs herds in Nevada were established from escaped settlers' horses (most notably draft horses ) In the 21st century, most mustangs are found in the inhospitable desert regions of the Great Basin and the  Red Desert of Wyoming. , where ranchers once allowed their horses to run free on the public rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use.

Population rise and fall
Some sources (Walker, page 91) say that millions of mustangs once roamed in western North America. Tom L McKnight stated that the "best guesses apparently lie between two and five million". According to Dobie, the population would have peaked about the end of the Mexican-American War in 1848, but "No scientific estimates of their numbers was made...My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West." De Steiguer stated that Dobie's lower guess is still "subject to question" as to being too high, but agreed that highest populations were found in the southern great plains. During the latter part of the 1800s, most of these were were caught, tamed and moved north and east. "Mustang runners" were usually cowboys in the U.S. and vaqueros or mesteñeros in Mexico who caught, tamed and drove free-ranging horses to market in the Spanish and later Mexican, and still later American territories of what is now Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the Great Plains and the San Joaquin Valley of California, and later in the Great Basin, from the 18th to the early 20th century. By 1934, there were approximately 150,000 feral horses on public land in the 11 Western States.

Legislation
As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use, and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken and pet food. However, after World War II, the pressure on them intensified when the federal government got into the act of reducing horse numbers. Several years prior to the outbreak of the War, after decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed, which had led to the passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act. It's purpose was to “stop injury to the public lands by preventing over-grazing and soil deterioration; to provide for orderly use, improvement and development; to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the Public Range and for other purposes.” The U.S. Grazing Service was established to administer the Act. The Grazing Service began establishing grazing fees, and determined that the fee for grazing horses would be double that for cattle and sheep. Ranchers, many of whom had gone broke during the Great Depression, simply left their unpermitted horses on the range and because of the outbreak of WWII, little attention was paid to the problem for several years. After the end of the War, the Grazing Service and the General Land Office were combined to create the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in 1946 and BLM and the United States Forest Service (USFS) began to round up feral horses by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses. During culls, abuses linked to certain killing methods (e.g. hunting from airplanes and poisoning) led to the first federal wild free-roaming horse protection law in 1959. This statute, known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act", prohibited the use of motor vehicles for hunting wild horses. Protection was increased further by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971. From that time to the present, the BLM is the primary authority that oversees the protection and management of mustang herds on public lands, while the USFS administers additional wild horse or burro territories.

Taylor Grazing Act Rewrite
Per my comment at the Mustang article, I am open to adding some material on the Taylor Grazing Act. I can only see the Amaral source in snippet view at the moment (sorry, RL is keeping me from accessing the specific book, it is available locally, but not for checkout, I have to use it at the library where it is housed. Eventually...) May I propose a modification to your edit as follows? Pending other changes, if we can agree on wording for this little piece, I would propose popping it as the second to last paragraph of the existing history section, not removing anything that's in there now. (We can move it later if we agree on other rearranging). The rewording I have below is not something I am particularly attached to, just what I think improves on your start - still room to further refine it; don't bother with strikeout and underline, just do changes underneath or something, easier for all to see. Everything below I sourced, save for the "many districts" - which Amaral might be able to source, but I am limited with Amaral to a very small snippet view, at the moment. Montanabw (talk) 03:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC) Free-roaming horse populations were dramatically reduced by the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act, which had the stated intent to prevent overgrazing and soil deterioration of the public range. It sharply limited subsistence grazing on public lands. It allowed the creation of grazing districts with a lease or permit system for individual livestock owners. There were large numbers of "wild abandoned horses running on public lands, and as a result, many districts (? source implies, may be weak) issued permits for cattle and sheep grazing only, limiting horses and mules to a few domesticated animals needed to manage livestock. Nonetheless, many ranchers left their horses on the range, and officials tasked with enforcement of the Act began to round stray horses up for extermination.

Comment
I think the first sentence needs some work. I'll check Amaral, but I'm not sure he said anything like "Free-roaming horse populations were dramatically reduced", and it wasn't the Act, but rather implementation of it, that was the cause of reductions. Whether something is "dramatically" reduced is subjective, and how do we even know they were reduced at all? Unless you want to use the number of 150,000 in the BLM book (and all sources point to that being a decent number), you can't make a case there was ANY reduction, because for all anyone knows, there was 17,300 horses left in 1934, and the roundups were just keeping pace with the birthrate. And, is the discussion of grazing districts relevant? Lynn Wysong (talk) 15:27, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * So, what Amaral wrote on page 139 was: "The greatest blow to the feral horse, one with sledge hammer devastation, came with the passage of the Taylor Grazing Act..."Lynn Wysong (talk) 00:37, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Right, "greatest blow... with sledge hammer devastation" sounds like "drastic" to me, but if you want to say it differently, let's see what you can do; we DO have the obligation to use our own words and not parrot the source by quoting someone endlessly.  I'm trying to give you the nod to your precious Amaral. I'm open to rephrasing; I'm NOT open to parroting long, overly-dramatically-worded quotations.  "Implementation of the Act..." is fine also, it's hair-splitting, but I can compromise with that.  Seems most sources agree the population was drastically reduced, the BLM source I gave you does seem to be as close as anyone was with their estimate of 150,000 and I'm sure it will not be difficult to find later numbers (we have some from the 50s, don't we?  And certainly post-1971 Act); so whatever, I don't think it's necessary to add endless statistics here, but if you have more sources, that's fine.  I'm trying to see if it's possible for you to collaborate with me on one short paragraph.  So take my paragraph above, rewrite it your way below, let's not keep jawing on and on about it, cut to the chase and write.   Montanabw (talk)  02:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * What I am "open" to, is setting a neutral tone, and using whatever quotes and data are necessary to do that. There's nothing wrong with either one.  But, whatever.  I had a blurb on the TGA, you wanted to do a rewrite and then asked for comments, and I gave you specific and constructive ones.  So, try again, if you want, I don't care if you use Amaral or not; the 1984 BLM source you found seems to provide enough info to stand on it's own, but if you want to use Amaral, I suggest you quote him, otherwise it sounds like you are inserting your own subjective language.  No, I know of no statistics from the 50s.Lynn Wysong (talk) 09:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, I think you are relying FAR too heavily on webpages as sources. Not only do links go bad, but the content of a webpage can change overnight.Lynn Wysong (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The Wayback machine handles linkrot just fine. I have nothing against real books, but it's best if they are available online for spotchecks and verification by others.  I am trying to see if you and I can agree on ONE paragraph.  You drafted something here, I saw potential and suggested changes, now you can offer further refinement.  I'm tired of arguing with you; collaborate or don't.  Collaboration means people work to find something they both can agree on.   Montanabw (talk)  04:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Take Two
As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use, {[cn}} - need page number- and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken and pet food.{[cn}}  However, after World War II, the pressure on them intensified when the federal government got into the act of reducing horse numbers. <--WWII occurred AFTER the TGA-->

After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed, which led to the passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act. It's purpose was to “stop injury to the public lands by preventing over-grazing and soil deterioration; to provide for orderly use, improvement and development; to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the Public Range and for other purposes.” The U.S. Grazing Service was established to administer the Act. The Grazing Service began establishing grazing fees, and determined that the fee for grazing horses would be double that for cattle and sheep. Ranchers, many of whom had gone broke during the Great Depression, simply left their unpermitted horses on the range and because of the outbreak of WWII, little attention was paid to the problem for several years. After the end of the War, the Grazing Service and the General Land Office were combined to create the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in 1946 and BLM and the US Forest Service began to round up feral horses by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses.

I don't have time right now to do better refs for it. Just fyi, my speculation is that, by the end of WWII, horse numbers were probably back up to about what they were at the turn of the century 45 years earlier-to 200,000-250,000. By the time the Wild Horse Annie Act passed in 1959, they were down to about 33,000. I picked up that number a long time ago, and unfortunately did not note where so I don't have a source for it. So, in about 13 years, when you consider the birth rate, probably about 400,000 horses were rounded up-but the population number decreased by only half of that. I also think that, for political reasons, the BLM is low-balling the number of horses in 1971, to be able to say that AML now is higher than the number on the range when it began managing them. I think the number stayed pretty steady after 1959, but had already risen to about 45,000 in the first four years after it became illegal to round them up for disposal. The first real census was done in 1975, and that was the number they came up with.

So, feel free to comment. It may be too detailed. My opinion is that a detailed discussion of the TGA belongs more on the WFRH&BA page, because it is an integral part of what led to that Act.Lynn Wysong (talk) 14:09, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, as I tell my college students, I'm not going to do your work for you, take your time. But remember that we aren't allowed to "speculate" on Wikipedia, that's original research. As for where the TGA stuff goes, first we have to agree on what to say about it.  You don't seem to realize that the TGA passed in 1934 - BEFORE the outbreak of WWII, WWII began in 1939 in Europe and 1941 in America.  I made some inline notes about your version above, if you have the books, it's your responsibility to provide the page numbers; you can toss my notes on each as they are fixed.  I think there is room for your version here and the proposal I made to eventually be merged into something workable.   Montanabw (talk)  17:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

History
The only extant true wild horse is the Przewalski's horse, native to Mongolia. Although the horse family Equidae and the genus Equus evolved in North America and existed in prehistoric times, the genus Equus in the New World died out at the end of the last ice age around 10-12 thousand years ago, possibly due to a changing climate or the impact of newly arrived human hunters. Horses first returned with the conquistadors, beginning with Columbus, who imported horses from Spain to the West Indies on his second voyage in 1493. Domesticated horses came to mainland North America with the arrival of Cortés in 1519.



First Generation Mustangs
Dispersal 1600-1750

The first mustangs were descended from horses raised on ranches in the interior of Mexico by Spanish stock raisers and then taken to Santa Fe around 1600. They were captured by the Native Americans who spread horses by trade and other means throughout the Great Plains, and the Columbia and Colorado River basins. could put discussion of tribes breeding horses here where they escaped captivity and began to form feral herds, most notably in the Southern Great Plains. There is where historian J. Frank Dobie stated the Spanish horses found the: "...American ranges corresponding in climate and soil to the arid lands of Spain, northern Africa and Arabia in which they originated".

Population Rise and Fall

Some sources say that millions of mustangs once roamed in western North America (west of the Mississippi River). Tom L McKnight stated that the population would have peaked in the late 1700's or early 1800's, and that the "best guesses apparently lie between two and five million". According to Dobie, the population would have peaked about the end of the Mexican-American War in 1848, but "No scientific estimates of their numbers was made...My own guess is that at no time were there more than a million mustangs in Texas and no more than a million others scattered over the remainder of the West." De Steiguer stated that Dobie's lower guess is still "subject to question" as to being too high, but agreed with Dobie and McKnight that highest populations were found in the southern great plains. During the latter part of the 1800s, most of these were were rounded up and trailed north and east. "Mustang runners" were usually cowboys in the U.S. and vaqueros or mesteñeros in Mexico who caught, tamed and drove the free-roaming and semi-feral horses to market in the Spanish and later Mexican, and still later American territories of what is now Northern Mexico, Texas, New Mexico and California. They caught the horses that roamed the Great Plains and the San Joaquin Valley of California. In the early 1900's hundreds of thousands of horses were rounded up for use in the Boer War and WWI. By 1930, mustangs had been eliminated from Texas. In 1934, Dobie stated that there were just "a few wild [feral] horses in Nevada, Wyoming and other Western states...Only a trace of Spanish blood is left in most of them" remaining. Other sources agree that by that time, only "pockets" of "Spanish" mustangs remained. By that time, cowboy Bob Brislawn had recognized that the original mustangs were disappearing, and was making an effort to preserve them, ultimately establishing the Spanish Mustang Registry.

Second Generation Mustangs


Origins

Although large numbers of mustangs were documented in the warmer and relatively moister arid regions of the Western U.S. in the early to mid 1800s, the paucity of them was documented in the colder desert regions during that same time period. There are no known documented early sightings of mustangs in the eastern part of the Great Basin (the Lake Bonneville basin in Utah). Although Fremont noted thousands of horses in California, it does not appear he saw any in the Great Basin, to which he gave its name. Jedediah Smith, in his 1827 trek across the Great Basin saw "some horse sign" along the West Walker River, but did not mention any other such sightings   The first known sighting of a horse in the Great Basin was by John Bidwell near the Humboldt Sinks in 1841. In 1861, another party saw seven free-roaming horses near the Stillwater Range. All three of these sightings were along the western edge of the Great Basin in Nevada, but for the most part, mustangs herds in Nevada were established in the late 1800's from escaped settlers' horses (most notably draft horses ) In the 21st century, the vast majority of mustangs are found west of the Continental Divide and most of those in the inhospitable desert regions of the Great Basin and the  Red Desert of Wyoming. , where ranchers once allowed their horses to run free on the public rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use. Only a handful of today's remaining herds have been determined to descend from the original Spanish stock.

Decline and Legislation

As motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace, horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them to sell or use, and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken food. By 1930, feral horses populations in the western U.S. were limited to the public domain rangelands with an estimated population between 50,000-150,000. However, the pressure on them intensified when the federal government got into the act of reducing horse numbers in the 11 Western States. After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed, which had led to the passage of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act. It's purpose was to “stop injury to the public lands by preventing over-grazing and soil deterioration; to provide for orderly use, improvement and development; to stabilize the livestock industry dependent upon the Public Range and for other purposes.” The U.S. Grazing Service was established to administer the Act. The Grazing Service began establishing grazing fees, and determined that the fee for grazing horses would be double that for cattle and sheep. Ranchers, many of whom had gone broke during the Great Depression, simply left their unpermitted horses on the range, and after the end of World War II, the demand for horsemeat for pet food increased the roundups. In 1946 the Grazing Service and the General Land Office were combined to create the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the BLM and the United States Forest Service (USFS) began to round up feral horses by the thousands for extermination, even though many ranchers objected to the eradication of "their" horses. By 1958, there were 14,810 to 29,620 mustangs remaining. During culls, abuses linked to certain killing methods (e.g. hunting from airplanes and poisoning) led to the first federal wild free-roaming horse protection law in 1959. This statute, known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act", prohibited the use of motor vehicles for hunting wild horses. Protection was increased further by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971. From that time to the present, the BLM is the primary authority that oversees the protection and management of mustang herds on public lands, while the USFS administers additional wild horse or burro territories.

Characteristics and Derived Breeds
Characteristics



The original mustangs were Colonial Spanish horses, but many other breeds and types of horses contributed to the modern mustang, resulting in varying phenotypes. Mustangs of all body types are described as surefooted and having good endurance. They may be of any coat color. Genetic contributions to today's free-roaming mustang herds include assorted ranch horses that escaped to or were turned out on the public lands, and estray horses used by the United States Cavalry.[cite to the relevant HMAs]. For example, in Idaho some Herd Management Areas (HMA) contain animals with known descent from Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse stallions turned out with feral herds. [cmt] Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with gaited horse breeds. Horses in several HMAs retain Spanish horse traits, including dun coloration and primitive markings.(additional sourcing) The herds located in two HMAs in central Nevada produce Curly Horses. Others, such as certain bands in Wyoming, have characteristics consistent with gaited horse breeds. Throughout all the BLM's HMAs, light riding horse type predominates, though a few horses with draft horse characteristics also exist (cite to Colorado and Idaho HMA), mostly kept separate from other mustangs and confined to specific areas.

Several bands have had DNA testing and are verified to have significant Spanish ancestry. These include the Kiger Mustang[cmt ], the Cerbat Mustang, and the Pryor Mountain Mustang. A 2010 study of the Pryor herd also showed that those mustangs shared genetic traits with other domestic horse breeds and thus were not a unique species which had survived in North America from prehistoric times. Other genetic herd studies, such as one done in 2002 on the bands in the Challis, Idaho area, show a very mixed blend of Spanish, North American gaited horse, draft horse and pony influences.

The now-defunct American Mustang Association developed a breed standard for those mustangs that carry morphological traits associated with the early Spanish horses. These include a well-proportioned body with a clean, refined head with wide forehead and small muzzle. The facial profile may be straight or slightly convex. Withers are moderate in height and the shoulder is to be "long and sloping." The standard considers a very short back, deep girth and muscular coupling over the loins as desirable. The croup is rounded, neither too flat nor goose-rumped. The tail is low-set. The legs are to be straight and sound. Hooves are round and dense. Dun color and primitive markings are particularly common amongst horses of Spanish type.

Breeds Derived from Mustangs


 * The Nez Perce people became master horse breeders, and developed one of the first distinctly American breeds, the Appaloosa.


 * Curly Horses


 * Colonial Spanish Horse [cmt ]


 * Some herds show the signs of the introduction of Thoroughbred or other light racehorse-types into herds, a process that also led in part to the creation of the American Quarter Horse. [cmt ]