User talk:MEL BIRNKRANT

Buster Brown and "conflict of interest"
Hi - the link you added to Buster Brown is pretty amazing, that is quite a collection of high quality merchandise - and I see the links on other pages too are more of the same. However, we have a conflict of interest problem here as your ID indicates you are linking to your personal website and collection, and Wikipedia is not really about self-promotion. The other, more serious issue is that although you are certainly an expert on your subject (I've been aware of your books/collection since I was a kid), these are basically self-published sources apparently without third-party editorial control. That is usually a major problem.

My personal take on it is that you are not selling your collection, simply showing it off, and that the quality of the material is exceptionally high, many obviously rare and museum-quality objects, nicely photographed and presented - so for me, I very much enjoyed seeing them in the External Links sections. However, other Wikipedians may feel that any self-promotion is inappropriate and that these links must be removed immediately. I think that's a shame - it's not like you are linking to sites selling genuine gold plastic Chinese waving cats, but offering an opportunity to see really special, ultra-rare material that is truly relevant to the article subjects.

Again, thank you for your edits - although problematic, I very much enjoyed seeing the sites and had I come across them, would have seriously considered adding them into the pages myself (which would not have been a conflict of interest). Mabalu (talk) 10:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mabalu, Gosh I had no idea I was doing something wrong.

You sure got it just right though. I’m not selling or promoting anything, including myself, only sharing! I’m just a 77 year old guy, today happens to be my birthday, trying to make some sense of a lifetime of collecting I am offering essentially a look at visual material, of a quality that, to put it immodestly, is available nowhere else on Earth. If that breaks some kind of rules, I guess I wouldn’t want to be here, anyway. If, on the other hand, you would be willing to recommend me, that would be very nice of you. Again I don’t profess to be an expert, but I’m not saying much, apart from a few dates that I checked on Wikipedia.

I let the images speak for themselves! And they speak the truth.

Again, I have nothing to gain from doing this, and if Wikipedia kicks me out, nothing to lose, other than the pleasure of sharing these things. It is a fine World we live in where it is impossible to share ones life’s achievement, for free! The same thing holds true with trying to give a collection like mine to a museum. They don’t want it, either without Millions to endow it.

Previously my other contribution to Wikipedia, was to the Colorforms Aliens page. I got that notice about Conflict of Interest when I entered there too, but I assumed it was an automatic response kicked out by a computer based on the wording, and once someone. No one wrote me a letter. I just assumed that if someone read it, and realized I was selling nothing, it was OK. Here I was the guy who Created the Colorforms Aliens, and technically I guess I am not permitted to be their either. Its been several years, now, and no one has reported me or complained, so I really didn’t know I was breaking any rules.

Anyway, I apologize for all of this. I was just about to add several more things, Guess I need to forget it? Am I banished now? Best, Mel BirnkrantMEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 12:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC) Damn i dont know how to sign this Ill just copy what I see above ([User Talk Mel Birnkrant/ Talk]] 9:40 Sept 18, 2013)

MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 12:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Mel, and happy birthday! To sign a post, you can just type four tildes, like so: ~ You can always add a comment to the talk page to the page you would like to add your link to, to ask other editors if it would be appropriate to add to the page. The "conflict of interest" notes would have been flagged up by your use of your name and the bot noticing it was linked to the text you added. I really don't think you are doing anything "wrong" or deliberately breaking rules.


 * Let me see if I can explain this site a little better - the main rule of Wikipedia is that everything should be verifiable, based on reliable, third-party published sources. If your collection website was being hosted by a museum or professional institution, with a curatorial team writing the descriptions (rather than self-published), then nobody could possibly argue it wasn't an appropriate external link. The problem comes down to the fact that the site has been self-published, written by one person - even though that person is a recognised, published and long-standing expert in his field. For people who don't know who you are or what you have written and published, that's a problem because they don't know that they can trust you or your websites. I know who you are and am aware of the stuff you've written and done in the past (yes, even the Baby Faces!) so I know I can trust your site, but for someone who's not got that knowledge - they don't know if they can rely on it. That is the problem, at the end of the day.


 * I am happy to offer help and guidance with editing Wikipedia and making sure that the material you would like to add is appropriately used. Please feel free to ask questions here, or post on my talk page and I will reply to you ASAP. Please don't be put off from contributing or editing Wikipedia - I know you have a lot to offer, and would be happy to help. Mabalu (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mabalu, Thanks for your reply. Wow! Baby Face too? I am in awe!

I see that the Little Nemo guy kicked me out already.

I just spent the last seven months trying to create some record of the collection I devoted my lifetime to assembling. I don’t know why, exactly, but it just seemed that this stuff needed to be preserved, and shared. My time to share it is limited, as when I am gone, there will most likely be a Yard Sale.

The idea of posting it on Wikipedia was certainly not my goal, In fact it never crossed my mind until a few days ago. But I thought it would be good thing. If you think so too, anything you would be able to do to help me I would greatly appreciate.

I do know that my friend Richard Olson has a link for his Outcault Society on the Yellow Kid page, would it help if he submitted my yellow kid site to that page. As far as I know it hasn’t been booted off yet. Maybe there are some pages I could add to that wouldn’t elicit any complaints, or will they all be discovered, eventually?

I don’t know if the guy who kicked me out did so because my entry was illegal or just as he said “irrelevant”, in his opinion. I suppose, up against such resistance, even getting my friend John Canemaker to submit my page to Little Nemo, he wrote a book, wouldn’t make a difference.

Anyway Mabalu, my new website is called “Greetings from Mouse Heaven”, named after the film by my friend Kenneth Anger. It has 60 pages, full of photographs. Unlike Baby Face, none of it is about my work, or me. It’s all images of rare artifacts.

I can’t help but believe that Wikipedia would be enriched by some of these, Little Nemo, excepted. I can’t understand why the World’s best collection of the few known artifacts, although modest, due to rarity, would be considered  irrelevant. At this stage in my life I am asking, Is it all? That thought raises its ugly head today, one that, up till now, didn’t occur to me. Then again, I never met any experts, before.

Thanks and Best regards Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Mabalu. Oh I get it about my name. Let’s see if I can remove it. That will at least take a flag away, or will it? --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 14:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Mel - I don't think a name change will affect anything, flag-wise. In a way, it's kind of better this way because it's honest and straightforward. I just had a look at the Little Nemo page and the removed link and whilst it's really interesting, I can see why the other editor removed it (although "inappropriate" could have done with a bit more expansion and explanation.) He did say it was "interesting" so I guess "inappropriate" was because it was a self-published website and could not technically be considered a reliable source. It's a remarkable collection, certainly - and I do find it tough to believe that no museums are interested in it, or want money to display it. You would think that such material would be so important to American popular culture. But then, "children's toys" tend to kind of be looked down on, sadly.
 * One thing you might like to consider is maybe choosing a few of your better photographs of items in your collection and uploading them to Wikimedia Commons - you could add the information on them to the descriptions, including where they came from, and what is represented in each image, and as the photographer, you would be able to release copyright and give permission for them to be used freely. It's worth considering - for example, an appropriately chosen great image of Yellow Kid merchandise could be used in the Yellow Kid article, and by clicking on the illustration, you could see more information about where the merchandise came from, including a link to the page from where the image came, so that people looking for further details could visit and find out more. In addition, with permission from the photographer (yourself) to use the image on Wikipedia, it means that the image could be freely used and shared, and with correct credits, more people would have the chance to know about the Birnkrant collection - maybe more people than would click on a link in the Further Links selection. That may be worth thinking about - if you like the sound of this and are happy to give permission to use, I can upload a sample image for you to show you how it would work. :) Mabalu (talk) 14:52, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mabulu, Thanks for your advice. Alas, I just removed all the names, before you wrote me.. Should I put them back again, or will everything be pulled off, anyway?

I posted a page to Foxy Grandpa without my name and, although, it’s only a “stubb” page, the warning popped up, anyway.

Would it make a difference if I got someone more important than me to list my sites? Or because I wrote them myself, would'nt it matter?

As for sharing photos, they are all over Google images, as it is. I know it’s not the same as decorating articles by experts, who don’t want me. But Googles impersonal computer seems to be more welcoming, and I don’t have to suffer the indignity of pushing myself in.

Anyway, I’ll just take a break from all of this for a few days, and see if any of my contributions survive. If they do, I’ll try some more.

Or is that other editor on my case, and, unlike yourself, will track me down?

Best Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 16:11, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Mel, don't worry about it. I should advise you that they may or may not survive, but please don't take it personally. Also, not everyone that edits Wikipedia is an expert and nobody "owns" an article - although some may disagree! Many editors are actually simply interested amateurs or people who want to do things "right" although can sometimes (myself included) make mistakes. Also, like I said, we don't always know who is editing - I mean, I wouldn't know a leading expert in telebiogenesis if he/she introduced themselves to me, but someone who knew the field would recognise the name. Much as I knew who you were when I saw your name and your edits, so I knew you knew your stuff. I do hope you won't be deterred from contributing in the future. The difference between Google Images and contributing images to the Wikimedia Commons is that unlike Google, once an image is on the Commons and the owner/photographer has given permission for it to be there, it is there to stay and won't go anywhere. Plus it will make sure that your ownership is asserted and that people know that the pictures came from YOUR collection and not Joe Bloggs of Minnesota who just stole the pics and uploaded them to their site without credit. :) Mabalu (talk) 16:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello Mel and happy birthday! Unfortunately, as above, I had to remove an external link that you added to the page, per WP:ELNO and WP:NOTLINK. One rule there is " I would probably advise to halt adding any external links to your site to any Wikipedia pages - but of course, you can always contribute your expertise to an article (if backed by reliable sources). I would endorse adding your images to Wikimedia Commons for everyone to see if you wish; many editors would be fascinated to look at them. Thanks, Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 17:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S.: I'm not that other editor. I'm another recent changes patroller who happened to discover your edit.

How do I get backed by reliable sources? I did make more entries that raised no flags. But I’ll take your advice and scram. --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 17:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me - you must find reliable sources for your work. That means looking inside books, the internet or anything reliable for information relevant for what you want to write. There is an unfortunate problem on this site especially in science articles; people write what they know from personal learning. It's all probably true, but still - verifiability, not truth.


 * Your other link additions probably haven't been noticed yet, so that's why they have stayed. Thanks, Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 18:03, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Mabalu,

I am addressing this to you as you know who i am even including my doll Baby Face. And you were foremost among the kindly voices yesterday, you and Naraht.

OH Wow, After Yesterday, which proved to be the worst days work I ever did, I never intended to return here. When the man who would pass final judgment on my Little Nemo Page tells me that even if my friend John Canemaker who happens to be the person who wrote the book he states he derives all his information from to author his own Wikipedia articles,  lists my site personally, and I get my own page on Wikipedia as well, my site wouldn’t be ” in line with Wikipedia's goals” according to him, what’s the point? I can’t win! But That’s not what I am writing about!

Another matter has arisen that is much more important. It appears that my attempts to contribute to various comic character related site that my new website http://melbirnkrant.com/collection/index.html  and collection deals with, yesterday has resulted in the erasure of the Colorforms Aliens pages I contributed, 4 years ago,

My God! They are what the Colorforms Aliens are all about! I am the man who created them! Your page was written by an unknown fan. The Outer Space Men, as they are called, in 1968  and those pages you have been linked to for the past four years  are literally the Bible of the “Outer Space Men Collectors”. There is a huge fan base for these figures which were historically The First Action Figures.

They play an Important role in the history of toys and action figures, all of which has resulted in the enormous popularity of action figures and enormous events like the New your Comic Con, where by the way I will be signing autographs on November 12

Someone, obviously, just blindly deleted these key pages without looking at their content. What does one have to do to get them reinstated? There are certainly 100 people who would gladly reinstate them if the fact that I did it myself is the problem.

As for being an expert, I am the man who created the Colorforms Aliens in the first place. I was Colorforms Creative Director for 20 years responsible for the creation of all their product. including the Outer Space men and Maurice Sendaks Wild Things Dolls. I see that my comprehensive history of the Colorforms company has been removed as well. http://melbirnkrant.com/colorforms/

My Outer Space Men site shows all the original art, and photos, and packaged product, that I created 45 yeras ago. It is considereone of the finest sites on the internet. If someone would just look at this wepsite you would see why it needs to be there.

http://melbirnkrant.com/outerspacemen/

Again if it is solely the fact I innocently posted them  myself 4 years ago there are any number of people who would willingly resubmit them in their name. Whoevers removed these obviously did not look at them before they did. Wikipedia is a poorer place without them.

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 21:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Links
Hi, just to let you know I'm rollbacking some of your recent contributions where you appear to add your personal website to articles. Feel free to discuss these as references on the article talk page, but adding them yourself as a link is likely to cause issues. Thanks, and if you have further questions, feel free to ask me at my talk page. drewmunn talk 18:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Specifically they could be regarded as WP:SPAMLINKs.--ukexpat (talk) 18:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but see above. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 18:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Please Stay...
You have a lot of knowledge than could be very useful here. And it appears that several users both on the help page and here are trying to work through the Rules/Guidelines for the appropriate ways for your knowledge to be included here. One possibility is that due to your Conflict of Interest, you could simply indicate on the talk pages for the articles the links for the subject and have someone else add them. That takes care of part of the issue. One other possibility is to have someone create an article about your and/or your collection, which seems appropriate in regards to notability. If so, then your additions should be appropriate.

So please stay, let various editors (some of which know the rules better than I) work to figure out what can be done.Naraht (talk) 20:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Dear Naraht,

Thank you for your words of encouragement. They arrive like a light in the darkness of what has been a shocking and disheartening day. Time and again, it seems, I learn the hard way, how difficult it is to give something away. I am simply offering to share my life’s purpose and passion, with no motive of gain, no means, of remuneration. Ever since I began collecting Comic Character imagery, 70 years ago, that has always been the case. I’m not exaggerating. There are treasures in this collection I obtained when I was 5 years old.

I had no idea how Wikipedia worked, so it has been very disheartening for me to me to see my life’s “work” characterized as SPAM.

I see mention of the Life magazine article here, Amazing, That was 45 years ago. At that time my friends, the artists, Richard Merkin, and Ernie Trova, and I were the only Mickey Mouse collectors in the USA,  Now of the three of us, only I remain.

I had never heard of Google News Archives. My God! There are articles there that date from when I was 17 years old. But they only scratch the surface, There are dozens more appearances in books, newspapers, magazines and TV , like Christmas Morning on ABC TV. But that is only a fraction of what there could have been, if not for the fact that, ironically, I always refused to participate in anything that mentioned money. Often the producers would insist that that was what their readers or viewers were interested in. And I would always reply, “Fine, but do it with another collector, not me.”

I might also mention the historic Bambergers Mickey Mouse show in 1973. If I have to produce credentials I could certainly find plenty. But that is Not the point, It’s about the historic art and artifacts in my collection. Sharing them, in a way that the viewer sees them the way I see them, through my eyes, and preserving some record of them, as they all fit together, is my only mission. I am not a dealer. I made a living as a toy inventor, and spent all I earned on Comic Characters. As far as the collection goes I have never sold or profited financially on anything, and I don’t intend to. My only desire is to keep it all together, and see some record of it survive me.

So it is ironic to see the implication that I am seeking some kind of gain, or that there is something to my self-interest to be derived from participating on Wikipedia. All I was actually seeking was the opportunity to share the treasures I have assembled throughout my life with as many as I could, before the collection is split up. And split up it will be. My friend Maurice Sendak passed away, believing that his Mickey Mouse Collection would be kept intact at the Rosenbach. He never purchased a mouse, by the way, without consulting me. Yesterday I learned that his Mouse Collection will be split up and scattered many places, most of it to be auctioned off for money. So if his collection couldn’t be kept together, mine, which is twenty times the size of his, certainly will not be, either. Once it is divided, the likes of it can never be duplicated. That is why I spent the last seven months making a record of it.

And if I am not the ultimate expert on the objects that I own, I don’t know who would be. I didn’t write my recent website with Wikipedia in mind, but contrary to what some who spoke on this subject, today, implied. I didn’t simply, make it up! Naturally, I used references to double check my facts and dates. I have a huge library of just such things. And now, there is, of course, Wikipedia. It never occurred to me to list my resources. The content, like the collection, itself, is essentially Visual. All I had to do was identify the objects accurately and I am the ultimate expert on that.

Sotheby’s certainly thought so. When they had a Collectibles Department, I’m the guy Eric Estrada, who ran it, always called, when he found a Comic Character item they couldn’t identify. He never ceased to be amazed by the fact that I could describe what he was holding in his hand to him in minute detail, over the phone. And explain to him just what it was, even though I couldn’t see it.

Anyway Naraht, I am grateful for your effort to encourage me to stay. Actually you renew my faith in the fairness of Wikipedia, Mabulu was very kind, as well, but it seems he knew me, and was convinced of my qualifications already, dating all the way back to toys I created years ago. But he explained to me that others, there, would judge me based only on the rules, and as to my area of expertise, they wouldn’t have a clue.

And then there’s you! Who would expect a Mathematician and Computer Scientist to be so considerate and insightful about an area as far afield as mine? That indicates a truly open mind. Thanks for your efforts, I’ll look in, from time to time, to see if anything is happening. Best regards Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 01:38, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Mel, as one of the editors involved with the removal of your recently added links, I'd just like to say a few words: I have no personal issues with your site being used as a resource for citations on Wikipedia; it is a wonderful resource far beyond many sources we accept usually! However, as with a fair few things on Wikipedia, even the best of information can be removed due to a procedural issue. I know plenty of editors who, like yourself, bring excellent information to this site and are met with a bombardment of guidelines, so I try to explain this sort of thing simply, and in a way that encourages further contributions (sorry if, for any reason, this was not clear). Adding links to your own site can be problematic, especially when an editor casting his eye over recent changes sees a similar pattern across multiple pages in quick succession. This was picked up by an editor, who requested assistance, and I assessed the situation. My decision to perform a revert of your additions is in no way a reflection on your site and its content, but a way of attempting to ensure your contributions are allowed to remain; by going about it the (admittedly fairly long, compared to simply adding it) way that Wikipedia suggests content owners like yourself do would ensure that the content is added impartially, and is therefore less likely to cause you to be pulled up for a procedural error (we all make them, no matter how experienced an editor) and your content removed permanently. I do hope you can understand that I was not accusing you of spamming, simply attempting to ensure your site and its information could be used in a way that would not fall foul of procedure anywhere down the line. It would be tragic to lose a resource such as yourself, so please don't feel judged or accused by me. I hope this clears up any confusion or frustration I may have caused, and I wish you a enjoyable experience here in the future! drewmunn talk 13:04, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Notable enough for an article, I think.
It seems odd to actually discuss this on his talk page, but between the Life Magazine article and 15 different hits in the Google News Archives, I think that there is probably enough for a wikipedia article. If he has one, then I think that in *that* case the links may be acceptable, if done by someone else, right?Naraht (talk) 20:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 20:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!
Hi, Mel, and happy birthday! I realize now that my "inappropriate" comment could be interpreted a number of ways—what I only meant is that it wasn't the kind of link that was normally encouraged on Wikipedia. It's not an issue of quality or anything like that.

I'm planning on doing a big expansion of the Little Nemo page in the next few months. As such, I've been researching the topic, and I actually come across your Nemo page a few days ago and was fascinated by the stuff there.

If it's really your intention to share this stuff with the world, Wikimedia Commons would be a great place to store it (as Mabalu said above). If you need help, I upload stuff to Commons all the time and could give you a hand—for instance, most of the Little Nemo pages you see listed at Commons:Category:Little Nemo were uploaded by me (the whole 1905–1914 run). Of course, this would only apply to stuff that's in the public domain (or an appropriate licence from the copyright holder). If you're interested, I'm interested in helping you sort all that out—if you click through to my user page you'll see that I have a big interest in old comic strips (in fact, the George Herriman article I wrote has a good chance of hitting the main page of Wikipedia next month in time for the 100th anniversay of the Krazy Kat daily).

Hope you'll stick around! Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Curley Turkey, thanks for the Birthday wish. And for explaining? I’m still not sure why it isn’t the kind of link that would be normally encouraged on Wikipedia, Is that because of its content? Or the fact that I posted it myself? Or just not scholarly enough?

I do know that I’ve seen stuff in many other links on Wikipedia that struck me as more, lightweight, than mine, and nowhere near as pretty. But I thank you for coming back sounding a lot more friendly,” You are right, “Inappropriate” left a lot of room for interpretation, all bad!

Looking at The Commons, it’s sort of like off line back up, Indeed I might park some images there, one day. But, right now, I have run out of time. I spent too much of it on that 60 page website, and there is a long list of other things I need to get accomplished while I can. Those Nemo Pages are very nice, Is that enlarged size the maximum size? Or can images stored there be made big enough to fill a 24 inch wide screen?

There certainly is a mind boggling cornucopia of Nemo related images on Google. I remember when my friend Woody Gelman published that tiny Nemo folder /book, in brown black and white. That’s about all there was, at the time! I got to see that mile high pile of original Little Nemo Sundays he had, in person, before the fire. Believe it or not, I was in the process of buying his Gertie poster when he died. His son, a banker, kept it!

By the way,that Krazy Kat painting on my Krazy Kat page is an image I recently loaned to my friend Craig Yoe for his latest Krazy Kat book. He has a page on Wikipedia. I was wondering if I could ask him to post a few links for me? Would that make any difference? Or would the Nemo Page still be inappropriate ? I could ask John Cainmaker to do it too, would that be any better?

Thanks Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 02:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Image size: The image sizes depend on how big the uploaded files were. Ususally, you can make them larger by clicking through—for example, here's the description page for the first Nemo, and here's the file if you click through.  Some files are bigger than others—for instance, File:Little Nemo 1907-09-29.jpg is huge.  The scans aren't my own, though, so the sizes depend on what I've managed to track down.
 * Lightweight Wikipedia pages: yes, there are over 4,000,000 pages on the English Wikipedia. The whole thing is run by volunteers, some more dedicated than others.  Some pages are high-quality, even to professional standards.  Others (many, many others) are shockingly bad, and there's everything in between.  Even the guidelines (except the most fundamental ones) are put together by volunteers, and can change when community consensus changes.  As it happens, the consensus right now is the sort of link you added is not the sort of link active Wikipedians consider in line with Wikipedia's goals—that's not a judgement of the quality of the page in the least, so getting Yoe or Canemaker to add the link wouldn't really matter (all it would do is avoid having the Bot tag it as "potential conflict of interest"—note that my rational for removing it wasn't "conflict of interest").  If it were a "scholarly" page, it would probably end up being used as a reference for the article, rather than being relegated to the "External links" section.
 * You know John Canemaker? If you see him, could please let him know that some Turkey has been wearing his book out as a reference for all the Winsor McCay pages?  There's a good chance Gertie the Dinosaur will be on the Main Page for its 100th anniversary next February.  My goal is to have all the McCay pages up to that quality by some time next year, and Canemaker's book has been an invaluable reference (if a little too big to cuddle in bed at night). Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, one comment about "reliable sources": the Wikpedia commnity has defined what "reliable" means in a Wikipeida context—you can read about it at Identifying reliable sources. The guideline is written to conform to Verifiability, one of the most important policies at Wikipedia.  Being told your page "isn't a reliable source" is in no way at stab at you or your own reliability, it just means that your website may not conform to the definition defined for Wikipedia's purposes.  If you're interested and patient enough, you can read through the reams of discussion that went into defining it (and continue to go into it), but it can be pretty tedious. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I THINK I PUT THIS IN THE WRONG PLACE, above, IT SHOULD HAVE GONE HERE ON THE END

Mabalu

I am addressing this to you as you know who I am, even including my doll Baby Face. And you were foremost among the kindly voices yesterday, you and Naraht, especially.

OH Wow, After Yesterday, which proved to be the worst days work I ever did, I never intended to return here. When the man who would pass final judgment on my Little Nemo Page tells me that even if my friend John Canemaker who happens to be the person who wrote the book he states he derives all his information from to author his own Wikipedia articles,  lists my site personally, and I get my own page on Wikipedia as well, my site wouldn’t be ” in line with Wikipedia's goals” according to him, what’s the point? I can’t win! But That’s not what I am writing about!

Another matter has arisen that is much more important. It appears that my attempts to contribute to various comic character related site that my new website http://melbirnkrant.com/collection/index.html  and collection deals with, yesterday has resulted in the erasure of the Colorforms Aliens pages I contributed, 4 years ago,

My God! They are what the Colorforms Aliens are all about! I am the man who created them! Your page was written by an unknown fan. The Outer Space Men, as they are called, in 1968  and those pages you have been linked to for the past four years  are literally the Bible of the “Outer Space Men Collectors”. There is a huge fan base for these figures which were historically The First Action Figures.

They play an Important role in the history of toys and action figures, all of which has resulted in the enormous popularity of action figures and enormous events like the New your Comic Con, where by the way I will be signing autographs on November 12

Someone, obviously, just blindly deleted these key pages without looking at their content. What does one have to do to get them reinstated? There are certainly 100 people who would gladly reinstate them if the fact that I did it myself is the problem.

As for being an expert, I am the man who created the Colorforms Aliens in the first place. I was Colorforms Creative Director for 20 years responsible for the creation of all their product. including the Outer Space men and Maurice Sendaks Wild Things Dolls. I see that my comprehensive history of the Colorforms company has been removed as well. http://melbirnkrant.com/colorforms/

My Outer Space Men site shows all the original art, and photos, and packaged product, that I created 45 yeras ago. It is considereone of the finest sites on the internet. If someone would just look at this wepsite you would see why it needs to be there.

http://melbirnkrant.com/outerspacemen/

Again if it is solely the fact I innocently posted them  myself 4 years ago there are any number of people who would willingly resubmit them in their name. Whoevers removed these obviously did not look at them before they did. Wikipedia is a poorer place without them.

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 21:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You're misunderstanding. If there were a page on yourself (and it looks like there are sources enough to justify one), then a link to your website would be exactly the thing one would expect on that page.  Oh, and look!  Someone's gone and created the page, though it could certainly use some work. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Colourform Aliens
Hi Mel -

I'm really tired (it's very late where I am and I have been out on the tiles) so I will keep this quick and not try to get too in over my head. But from what I gather, someone has removed the Colourform Aliens link to your site from Colorform Aliens because you posted it? That does seem a bit daft, you ARE the creator and if anyone would know what they're about, it's the man who created them. I have added the main link back in, because if any external link belongs there, it is THAT one. I just looked, and it was an anonymous ISP editor - albeit an active one.

I do have an idea about a potential home for your collection but it's a long shot and you may not like the idea as it might involve the collection going to a museum (albeit a world-class one) outside of the United States - but if nobody in the States cares, this may be the only way to keep it together. May I email you via Wikipedia with my thought? Mabalu (talk) 00:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Dear Gobble and Mabalu,

Thank You, I was starting to feel like I was in a Kafka Nightmare, or a tragedy of errors, Someone overzealously went about indiscriminately erasing everything I ever contributed here.

Gobble, I, wholeheartedly, agree with you that the "Outer Space Men" Website Needs some work. Right from the start, the title is misleading. "Colorform's Aliens" is the uneducated collector’s name, commonly used by youngsters, who, particularly, at the time that entry was made, did not know their history,or have a clue.

Others have since added to it some details about the names of the various characters etc. So it has improved, somewhat, over what I originally saw. Before I ever created my OSM site, I discovered that page, and tried to correct a factual error, namely that the Bullmark figures were licensed, when in fact, they were knock offs. I made that correction, and gave my reason for it on the editing history, namely, that if anybody licensed it, or didn’t, who would know, better than me? No royalty went into my pocket. My relationship with Harry Kislevitz was not that of an employee; we were, in a manner of speaking, buddies. There is no possibility that Colorforms licensed the property they were licensing from me at a full royalty, without informing me, so I simply changed the sentence.

Someone promptly changed it back again. It really wasn’t worth a fight, therefore, I just dropped it. Of course, the author of that had a vested interest. Most likely, he had invested in a series of Bullmark figures, and felt they would be more valuable if they were “official”. Seems like Wikipedia can easily lend itself for personal motive, I understand your concern, and the difficulty.

This small incident is one of the reasons I created my Outer Space Men Website: To set the story right, in every detail.

The reason the OSM are a Hot Issue today, and they are. If you simply look at Google Images you will see to what degree,

https://www.google.com/search?q=outer+space+men&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1pw7Uv2oDJe64APAzoGwBg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1649&bih=1081&dpr=1

is because the Four Horsemen have brought them back again. This is a very small production, and limited in number to a couple hundred pieces of each variation. There is no money in it, it is a labor of love. I have been working very closely with them, making sure every detail is right, doing extensive overlays, all the outer space photography, and creating new characters. The other websites I had posted along with the one that you, Mabalu, put back again brought the whole history, up to date, and chronicled all the new versions, step by step. They are in the same style and as the original site, and are, in some ways, more interesting and more important. They are living documents from someone who everyone is surprised is still living, and creating, 45 years later.

You will note that the Four Horsemen are sighted as the sole writer's reference. Whatever they know about the OSM, which is not a lot, they got from me.

Meanwhile, the article has several errors, beginning with the very name, tone and premise. And smaller things like the fact that Colossus Rex was not inspired by the Creature from The Black Lagoon, that is the writer’s cute opinion. My webpages disclose the truth, exactly what inspired him/me, a magazine cover by Frank Frazetta. My OSM web pages reveal all these details.

I believe the other OSM webpages that were deleted the OSM return etc, are even more pertinent than the one that Mabalu reentered. They certainly are living history. Meanwhile, Gobble thank you for your fair and careful look at the OSM situation.

Mabalu, I love you!

Seriously! But right now, I hope you are sleeping, peacefully. Meanwhile, when, and if, the spirit moves you, please take a look at my Colorforms History too. I created all the many toys that are included there and it tells the story of how the Maurice Sendak dolls came to be, and lots of historical things, right from the horse’s mouth, although the events of yesterday, led me to wonder if I wasn’t the other end of the pony.

This site was picked up by the author Cory Doctoreau http://boingboing.net/2010/12/02/sweet-memoir-of-a-go.html resulting in 20,000 hits on the first night, and continuing for weeks. it is still popular today, It is an inside look at the history of Colorforms and licensed merchandising over a span of 20 years. I believe it should be on the Colorforms page of Wikipedia again. By the way Harry Kislevitz who created Colorforms, has 6 children, When I left the Company it was to go into toy inventing with three of them. Any one of them would gladly reinstate my site If that is necessary. By the way one correction I did make early on, someone had changed the original Colorforms page to claim that someone, other than Pat and Harry Kislevitz invented Colorforms. the site was right at the beginning but someone had changed it. They kept changing it back. I kept correcting it, finally they backed off. Colorforms is no longer owned by the Kislevitz family, but Harry’s wife Pat is alive and well at close to 90, and has an interview on You Tube, right now, she looks and sounds great.

Harry’s sons are amazing, We had many adventures and managed to make a living too. That is what my main website is all about, the inventing years. Whether an item was successful or unsellable, either way, all the art work I generated for each project remained hidden. The web site, now that it’s all history, gives much of the artwork I spent my lifetime, doing for the waste basket, a moment to be seen, here in cyberspace. That’s all its about. I am not selling anything!

Throughout all this, my real passion was collecting iconic imagery and still is. The thought of disclosing all these rarities, and making them visible is, I suppose, taking a risk, but it is worth it to at least let them be seen. They are only valuable to an ever decreasing handful of collectors like me, and thus disclosing my ownership of many one of a kind rarities, is, in a sense, a sort of insurance policy. They would be unsellable.

Mabalu, Yes! Yes! I appreciate your suggestion and I would love to hear from you. The entire thrust of my remaining years, when I’m not doing this! Is to find a place where the collection would remain intact. I don’t care where in the World that is, provided it would be kept together. If ever there was an instance where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, it is here. My every effort is to keep it together. It would be unbearable to see this enormous sweater that I spent my whole life knitting picked apart, strand by strand. Someday, no doubt, it will be. They all are, it appears, but if all goes according to my plans that will be over my dead body, at least. Nothing would make me happier than to live to see it rescued in one piece. That is another reason for the website, I downloaded it to Filezilla today and discovered there are 1320 photographs on the site. I took them all myself. No Wonder it took seven months.

Whoever would rescue this collection would get me, as well, health willing I’d help them display it, if they wished, But either way, there are now the photographs to, at least, record, how it was displayed.

Please do email me! Did you say you could get the address through Wikipedia? Oy! I hope that is only for special editors, like you. I have spent years keeping my email address a secret, mainly because, at one time, there was a legion of nice ladies who collected Baby Face, and they all wanted to contact me! My good friend Cyndy Stevens, who ran the Baby Face Collectors Club protected me!

Thanks again, so much, Mabalu for putting back my site. I was going to announce what was happening on the Four Horsemen’s forum, and Wikipedia would have been bombarded with willing sponsers.

Thanks again best Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 03:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I've moved the Coloform Aliens page to Outer Space Men (I assume that was right)? Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:24, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

MY GOD CURLY TURKEY DID YOU CREATE THAT SITE? I hope I have that right! I DIDN’T UNDERSTAND YOUR MEANING. When you said “Somebody did,”, I THOUGHT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE “COLORFORMS ALIENS SITE, that Mabalu put back up again! I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO UTTERLY SURPRISED IN MY LIFE! (tears in my eyes). THANK YOU!

I THOUGHT THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE OSM PAGE BEING PUT BACK. And I was in total agreement with your observations of its shortcomings. I HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU MEANT A SITE ABOUT my life. I might help a friend or two “flesh” it out a little, I really did much more than just get fat! Ha!

I HAVE TO SAY, MEETING YOU HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARY! EXTRAORDINARY! I WILL TRY TO MERIT YOUR GENEROSITY!

Amazing! Yesterday, I was struggling with my opinion of you, forcing myself to withhold judgment, I am so glad that I did. I feel like I am living in a story by O.Henry! One with a moving surprise ending! Once again, THANK YOU! I should send this right now, but I am rereading what you did. My God! You are really GOOD! I think you did a fabulous job. I can see it represents a lot of research. So Great ! And NO mistakes! Well one more time, THANK YOU, and then Good Night!

Best, Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 04:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

PS. Only one mistake! My father was more a Muggle than a Mogul! MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 04:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said, it needs work. "Real estate mogul" was my attempt to reword whatever was said in the Observer article about a "real estate empire" (I have no idea if that was sarcastic or not).  At Wikipedia, we have to limit ourselves to summrizing what we find in "reliable sources".  Point me (or someone) at more sources about your life and we can flesh this out, but we can't just add things that you tell us—everything has to conform to Verifiability. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The page *about* Mel Birnkrant
Firstly, I support there being a page about Mel Birnkrant, and I'm phrasing it that way deliberately. Pages about living individuals on Wikipedia fall under a stricter set of rules, both on the part of the person being described in the article as well as a higher standard of what sort of things can be added to the article. WP:Biography of Living Persons covers the rules about what these higher rules are (such as only including names of family members if they are notable). OTOH, there are additional ways in which complaints can be raised if something on the page isn't accurate, see WP:BIOSELF. Please *don't* edit the Mel Birnkrant page *directly*, instead place *any* appropriate change with a reference on the related talk page and another editor (I'm sure User:Curly Turkey and I will keep an eye on the page) will make the change, (Conflict of Interest is another guideline. Unfortunately, your memories are not appropriate as a reference, instead it needs to be something that was published, which can be a magazine article, a book, a news report, a movie, a scientific article or something like that (See WP:REF). I've added the article to two categories: Toy Designers and Collectors, you may want to look at some of the other articles in those categories to see other examples of what might end up in the article.

I know that what is above is fairly thick with the rules/guidelines of Wikipedia, but there is a great deal that can be done within those to make things work. Curley Turkey, myself and many others want to make this work.Naraht (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Restoring the Links?
Is it time now then to discuss restoring the links to his site? I'm not sure that they are all equal though. While the added link is *perfect* for The Foxy Grandpa, I'd like suggestions of where his Wizard of Oz page link belongs. The place where it was put The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is specifically about the first book, where the page seems to cover things that show up in Multiple Oz related pages including The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (the first book), L.Frank Baum (The only mention of the OZ Toy Book) and Adaptations of The Wizard of Oz (the only mention of The Wonderful Game of OZ). We could ask on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Oz but that project doesn't seem that active. The other question is whether there are things on the pages that we can use as refs? Naraht (talk) 16:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Dear editors, I can see I have a lot to learn but I am learning fast. I am beginning to get it. Once one becomes aware of the stringent rules designed to keep Wikipedia accurate, it becomes all the more impressive! Thank you all for your help and kindness,  The World and Wikipedia seem much brighter, now, than they did two days ago.

Curley Turkey, seriously, the page you created is amazing, The thing about my father would certainly please him, actually he was a realestate developer, successful enough to live comfortably and might be considered “wealthy” only relatively, just enough to make me uncomfortable, and wish my life was more ordinary. But Mogul would please him indeed.

Would it be appropriate to mention that while my father was a Jewish mogul, my mother was the step-daughter of an Episcopalian minister? (That duality of religions was one of the most formative factors in my life. I managed to embrace both religions and never had to choose between them, Well except at Christmas time!)

There is one slight thing that I would like to suggest [should be changed. The flea market where that first cast iron Mouse was discovered was not in “Paris New York”, but rather was the one in “Paris France”, where I lived from September 1957 until June of 1958 and attended the Academe Julienne.

Hard to imagine, now, but there was no such thing as a Flea Market in the USA in 1958, The first took place, ten years later, in Salisbury, Conn. It was claimed by its founder, Russell Carrell, to be the first European style Flea Market in America. He called it “Antiques in a Cow Pasture”. It opened in September of 1968. I was there!

I will try not to bombard you with questions, I have studied the links you suggested, which were very helpful. Nonetheless I still have a few:

One is should I be corresponding here or start a new page by hitting that link you supplied?

Secondly, would information about my education be of interest to anybody, and if so how and by whom would that information be supplied? Me?

I know that you are interested in substantiating my references by printed material, articles etc,. I have quite a few, but they were in newspapers and magazines of which I may have the only surviving copy. The New Your Times Article that changed my life, and launched my career in the toy industry is still available on line for a fee, But I have a copy of it in its entirity, and it is on my web site. a little hard to read,

http://melbirnkrant.com/colorforms/page1.html

I could gladly send a larger scan, but where would I send it to? Likewise I could scan and send articles from Americana Magazine, (full color cover) Collectors News, Ford Times, three articles from Antique Toy World Magazine are already on line on my site, but i have the actual issues. I have also been included in a several Hard cover books, coffee table variety. Heres one that chronicles the Bambergers Exhibit in 1973 that was rather historical, according to the authors, a chapter about it is available on line legible if it is enlarged:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Disneyana-Collectables-1928-1958-Robert-Heide/dp/078686186X#reader_078686186X

scroll down to chapter about Mickey Mous-eum.

The authors later did an article about me for the Disney magazine, and one for the Village Voice, I could scan a copy of those too. Would it be proper and acceptable for me to do that? The material is not on the internet as far as I know. Where and how would I send these things? By Email?

I just mention these things because it seemed to me that anything that established credentials might be welcome.

I see also that you have listed my video interview with Eric Millen, for Massive Fantastic. Are other written online interviews of any value ? They do contain information that would be helpful to increase the content of the page, but, of course, as they are interviews the information came, essentially, from me!

http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=6059

Part Two

http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=9716

Last of all Naraht thank you for putting Foxy back. What you are asking about the Oz page is exactly what I asked myself. Your observations are correct. For whatever it is worth, if I could chime in. There is not a lot to offer there in terms of the big Oz picture, but there are essentially two items that are unique, The Waddle Book is nicely shown, But the major item of interest would be the Oz Toy Book, It offers a look at a rather legendary item complete in full color, that many Oz collectors might not have ever seen presented this nicely.

Thanks and best regards, Mel

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 18:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I saw that Baby Face link so i added some things there, I hope that is why it’s there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_(toy)

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 19:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Mel, I was trying to start a discussion on how and when to add things back, not saying that I did. Somethings on Wikipedia don't happen instantly.


 * It appears that someone "speedied" the Baby Face (toy). (Marked it as promotional only) which then caused it to be deleted before I could get a look at it. I've requested that the person who deleted it User:Peridon move it to a Sandbox either in my area or in yours. (Trust me, the information is still out there, nothing has been lost, it is actually *quite* difficult to get something completely scrubbed from Wikipedia :) ). There,IMO, is actually a need in Wikipedia for "Deletionists" who prune off the absolutely insane amount of odd articles that get created on non-encyclopedic stuff each day. You just got (probably temporarily) hit by that. OTOH, it may be that given that the Baby Face toy doesn't make the notability standard (though I think it does, I'll have to see what was put in the article.


 * Some of the paragraphs that you added ended up being put in a box and extending across the screen. This happened because you put a space as the first character on the line. To actually indent like I'm doing put a colon as the first character.


 * As for the sources that you mentioned, I'd copy the part of the post with that information to the talk page for the article. Talk:Mel Birnkrant. You may want to include for each source what information that is in that source that you think would be good to add to the article. Infomration doesn't have to be online to be referenced, there just has to be a decent chance for someone to be able to locate it.... Let's keep this going!Naraht (talk) 21:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Baby Face (toy)


A tag has been placed on Baby Face (toy), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Lugia2453 (talk) 19:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

September 2013
Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia. While objective prose about beliefs, products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for soapboxing, advertising or promotion. Thank you. Peridon (talk) 20:26, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Dear Editors, I am not sure I understand. What is it promoting? The doll is no longer made, It no longer exists, The comp[any that made it, Galoob no longer exists as well.

But I am not really pushing the issue. I never intended to mention it, as my only desire was to contribute to the vintage collectibles,

the page about me was a total surprise and so was seeing that Baby Face link there, inviting me to reply. That wasn’t an attempt to create a page. if I thought it was, I would have asked someone else to do it I sent it to you guys as information only,   the fact that I designed Baby Face should certainly be mentioned on my page. That’s plenty.

Perhaps the article by Bernie Shine looks like he was trying to help sales, he was ! But that was 15 years ago, Baby Face has been gone for 20 years now.

Baby Face Dolls are sold as collectibles on Ebay among Collectors, but I am certainly not selling any. They are all 20 years old. Anyway, although, I believe its possible that the person objecting might have misread or misunderstood the whole thing. It really doesn’t matter to me. Maybe it’s me who doesn’t understand what is considered promotion?

Not to push it, but the creation of Barbie would, I imagine, be fitting for  Wickipedia,  perhaps, I havent looked it up, just guessing, and Barbie is still sold  by the millions. Baby Fwas terminated 20 years ago. Any one that changes hands is old, a collectible, on its way to being an antique, like me. --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow I didn’t realize that I was creating a page I thought that was just a place to send you information. Of course what I typed there was bad form for a page, hopeless, I guess Curly Turkey must have placed that link there for himself or someone else to fill in later, I took it for a place to communicate with you guys and send you information about Baby Face--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The message above is just a template. He/she picked the most relevant template and moved on. With certain tools (and certain rights (another topic all together)), someone can delete a page, put that template up and keep going in about 5-10 seconds. And as I said above, *sometimes* that is needed... The next step is simply to make sure that the page that will go there is better. One way to do that is to work on it in a sandbox in your area first rather than putting it directly into the mainspace. So you may want to create it fresh in User:MEL_BIRNKRANT/Baby Face (toy) or copy it over from where User:Peledon moved it into my User space at User:Naraht/Baby Face (toy).Naraht (talk) 21:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did try doing a move page from User:Naraht/Baby Face (toy) to User:MEL_BIRNKRANT/Baby Face (toy), but it wouldn't let me, I'm not quite sure why. If you want to have that text, you may be able to (the software might allow things to be moved into their area of Userspace. Try going to the page in my area and selecting move up top and moving it into your userspace. (You'll need to have User in the Pulldown box on the left and MEL_BIRNKRANT/Baby Face (toy) in the part that you fill in. If that doesn't work, at least you have the text to copy and paste if you want. And BTW, you are trying things that I didn't have the bravery to try for 3 months after I started editing! :)Naraht (talk) 21:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Naraht! I’m not brave! I wasn’t trying to do a page! I thought it was an annex of this talk page. I was just sending information!

I should have merely put it here, I wouldn’t dare try a page, technically and also because it would be me, again, talking about me. I’ll never try that again! I know better than to do anything myself, I thought it was a request to send information to you guys only! My mistake. Sorry!

This morning, there was a talk page that appeared when I clicked in a message, so I asked about it here, I thought that Baby Face page was just another talk page for that specific subject.
 * Don't worry about it. There are actually two links to that uncreated page, one on your page, the other on the Galoob page... And as for creating the page, I think that your page and Cyndy's page would be good references, but they'd need to be combined with references from Doll books/pricing guides like Black Dolls:A Comprehensive Guide to Celebrating, Collecting, and Experiencing the Passion and that day will come. And if you run into static, let User:Curly Turkey or I know.Naraht (talk) 01:55, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject toys.
You may want to take a look at WikiProject Toys and leave a message on the talk page (and probably join. :) )Naraht (talk) 21:39, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Naraht,

I never realized I was accidently creating the World’s worst Baby Face Page. That was like saying the wrong thing on a hot mike. Actually I never would attempt to create a Baby Face site, I’d leave that to the ladies. and there is an Outer Space Man Wikipedia page, already,  And It’s now correctly named. I just thought there might be something in those links that would be of help to you or Curly Turkey in fleshing out a convincing site about me. and that there might be, at best, an additional reference, or a link on my site.

I suppose if my site should include Baby Face and the Outer Space Men, if there were some references that would do. What Curly Turkey already has there may be enough. If someone ever did create a Baby Face page they might include links or references there. The fact that Cyndy did organize my letters and edit them etc. in The Story of Baby Face, really makes it hers, but the fact that she has it parked on my site makes it appear like mine.

It’s just stored there! I can’t touch or amend it. It’s in html code. My little web page maker works in a different, easier, way. I guess, looking at the way she created it, it really does look like a commercial site. And she does sell dolls old and doll parts, elsewhere, so it’s complicated.

But again I am only interested in doing what it takes to be able to share my collection. The toys I’ve designed are secondary.

Thinking about my site again maybe a line could be included, about creating Maurice Sendak’s Wild Things dolls.

The story is here: http://www.melbirnkrant.com/toys/a_wild.htm

I really should do the Maurice site over, I have found much better photos of the dolls and I also found all my original drawings with notations by Maurice himself.

Thanks abain Best Mel

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 03:45, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Good morning Naraht,

Again Thank s for all your help. I feel like you have adopted me! Without your help, and that of Curly Turkey and Mabalu there is no way I could do this or learn this, or be on Wikipedia.

But I sure am learning fast! That tip about indenting explains one more mystery to me. Thanks! I wondered why that was happening.

A couple thoughts. I am not sure how the article talk page relates to this discussion. Should I move this whole conversation over to there? I really thought that Baby Face Page was sort of the same thing. That’s how I messed up.

I am afraid to submit any changes to my new page. But it sure would be easy to change small things like Paris New York to Paris France, but I also wouldn’t know how to make Paris France a link. I see that Curley Turkey has made lots of names links. There is sure a lot of work and effort involved in what he did. Thanks CT!

I looked at the story of Baby Face, this morning. Oh! I see one thing that is a problem, Cyndy has a link in the table of contents that leads directly to her doll shop. I am not sure if that even still exists, but, of course, it gives the clear impression of self-promotion. I can ask her to remove it. The rest is all the history of Baby Face. What makes these documents unique, is that something like this has never been done before. This is the first time the history of a toy product has been told by the person who created it. And this Baby Face story is the equivalent of the OSM sites.

There are several other Baby Face sites, One in particular, in England is very slick and full of clever computer trickery, and not connected to a doll shop, but I would not want to submit it or others to Wikipedia for fear that they might get posted instead of Cyndy’s site. She is really the reason that Baby Face is a alive today. And her telling of the “Story of Baby Face is the Bible of Collectors. She is also responsible for my being on the internet and doing my own websites.

Regarding other reference sources, Some are certainly viable like the Americana Magazine article, a picture of the cover is here, http://melbirnkrant.com/collection/page40.html

And the Life Magazine article as well, would be viable, but these are not on line. If it would help substantiate my page I could scan them and post them on the internet, without comment, so the reference could supply a link to them, but again they would appear under my name, on the history of edits page of Wikipedia so I couldn’t  list them myself. There was also an full color article in Ford Times Magazine, and a full page photo of objects from my collection in News Week. I could find and scan and post all these things, if that would help to substantiate my credibility. What does it take to graduate from “Stub” status?

Americana and the Ford magazine no longer exist so there would be no infringement of copyright. There are newspaper articles as well of which, no doubt, only I have copies.

Thanks Mel

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 14:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Email contact
Hi Mel -

You (absolutely rightly) do not have an email address linked to from here - good move! - so I cannot contact you. However, if you would like to contact me, I believe you can do so via this official Wikipedia link. I'll leave it at your discretion to do so - I hope my suggestion about the possible museum contact will be of interest to you. Best wishes, Mabalu (talk) 14:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh Mabalu! I just went to that place and was met with this message “You must be logged in and have a valid authenticated email address in your preferences to send email to other users. “ Then I went to my preferences page and all they offer me is the opportunity to list my email address.

I suppose I have missed lots of opportunities in my Internet lifetime by not posting my email address, but between Baby Face collectors, and Outer Space men fans, I have always made myself hard to get,

I am working on a way around this. Some people have circumvented my little self-made firewall by emailing Cyndy or my partner on the OSM Garry Schaeffer and each time they did I was always glad of it. I have probably been an idiot to keep my email address private, and missed a lot of opportunities. Let me think what to do next. I think I have an idea!

Can this page be edited? Can something that has been posted be removed? I if so I could send my email address here and then when you get it ill delete it, or you could do the same to me. I just don’t want it hanging out there, forever. --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 15:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, it is pretty difficult to get something completely removed, but it is possible. Better may be to get another email address at some place like gmail.com. If it gets overwhelmed by people sending you stuff, you can just turn it off.Naraht (talk) 18:34, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Naraht, You are brilliant! I already have another email account that I have never used. I forgot all about it! It was part of the web hosting service. I’ll use that to sign up on Wikipedia, so I can get Mabalu’s email address. That’s better than him emailing me there, as I never look at it. Checking it, now, to see if it works, I see I have emails there, unread, going back several years.

Oh would you believe that BabyFace mess I made actually got posted on the internet! I trust it will be removed soon, if not already. I am embarrassed --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 21:30, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Some possible input?
Dear Curly Turkey; I was wondering if you might be interested in incorporating any of this into your page. It was the header to the article I wrote for a short lived web publication some years ago.

They hired my friend Noel Barrett, as well as the Keno Brothers, all were "star" appraisers on “The Antique Road Show”, as site directors, Noel asked me to write this article. http://melbirnkrant.com/reflect1.htm

The editors didn’t get it, and they messed it up completely. Well, they really didn’t have a clue as to what they were doing and the whole enterprise folded within a year. The only writing I had done apart from copy for the various properties my partners and I created, was write the box and catalogue copy for Colorforms toys,  where every other word was capitalized, That, alas, shows in the article. Anyway the version posted on my website is the original one.

Its lead in bio. is short and accurate. Perhaps it has some information that you might want to incorporate, it was written in 1999, so “40 years of toy collecting “ has become more like 54!

It also alludes to Disney. My obsession with Disney, is what sustained me through a chubby childhood, and I did interview there at 17, and they hired me, to begin, a few months later, when I graduated from high school On actually visiting the studio the dream evaporated, and I chose to go to college instead. As a resident of Detroit, I attended the nearby University of Michigan, but my art instructors insisted that I go to a real art school, so next year found me in NYC at Pratt. I went to summer school at Cranbrook, and then to the Academie Julienne in Paris France, where I met the two loves of my life: Toy Collecting and Eunice, my future wife. Sorry, I’m blabbering! Here is the paragraph that might be workable for you in some way. I updated it slightly.

''' “Mel Birnkrant was offered a job at the Walt Disney Studios, when he was 17 years old, and a student at Mumford High School, in Detroit Michigan. He chose to attend college, instead, and went on to study art at The Cranbrook Academy, The University of Michigan (BA), Pratt Institute, and L'Academie Julienne in Paris. As Creative Director of "Colorforms" from 1964 to 1985, and an independent toy inventor, Mel has created hundreds of toys, including Colorform's "Outer Space Men", and Galoob's "Baby Face Dolls". He has collected Comic Character toys, for over fifty years, and regards them, not as toys, but "Art".'''

Thanks Mel

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 17:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Mel. Sorry I didn't respond sooner—somehow I hadn't noticed that you written this to me.  Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that wouldn't be allowed as a source.  The one I used in the article was published in the New York Guardian.  Books, magazine and newspaper articles, and professional web sites are generally the kinds of sources that are required, although there are plenty of exceptions, as Identifying reliable sources spells out.  Something that a lot of people have trouble understanding is Wikipedia's "verifiability, not truth"—that all the "truths" in the article must be independently verifiable.  There is more on this at Verifiability.  Do you recall any other articles like the one in the Guardian?  Videos and film count as well.  I did find a source that said you attended Pratt and Julian, and I've added it. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Curly Turkey, Nice Find!

I am, slowly but surely, beginning to understand. Wouldn’t the fact that L’Academie Julienne is in Paris France, be enough to indicate that the Flea Market where I found that bank was in Paris France? I’ve never been to Paris New York in my life. In 1958 there were no flea markets in the USA the first was 1968. Was there something that said Paris, "New York?"

What is the status of articles that are hard to find, of which I might have one of the few copies? like the Life Magazine article which is on line. But it doesn't say a lot, I guess.

The Life magazine article is on line. The lead photo on page on page 57 is part of my early collection. I am mentioned in the caption and on page 60.

The date of the issue is October 25, 1968

http://books.google.com/books?id=8VMEAAAAMBAJ&q=MICKEY+MOUSE#v=snippet&q=MICKEY%20MOUSE&f=false

This article came about because it was Mickey’s 40th birthday. Birnkrant, Trova, Lesser(watches) and Merkin were the first collectors in the USA. Up until this article sort of made it official, Mickey Mouse was not considered a collectible.

What about Books, There are several that were important publicatiions in terms of Disney Collecting,  Should I list these here, or on the page that i saw the other day, related to my article? They all mention Paris France I’m sure.

Regarding other reference sources, Some might be viable, like the Americana Magazine article, a picture of the cover is here, http://melbirnkrant.com/collection/page40.html  I could scan and post the whole article, sort of like that NewYork Times Page without comment.

Heres one that chronicles the Bambergers Exhibit in 1973 that was rather historical, according to the authors, a chapter about it is available on line legible if it is enlarged:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Disneyana-Collectables-1928-1958-Robert-Heide/dp/078686186X#reader_078686186X

scroll down to chapter about Mickey Mous-eum.

The authors later did an article about me for the Disney magazine, and one for the Village Voice, I could scan a copy of those too. Would it be proper and acceptable for me to do that? The material is not on the internet as far as I know. Where and how would I send these things? By Email?

I just mention these things because it seemed to me that anything that established credentials might be welcome.

I see also that you have listed my video interview with Eric Millen, for Massive Fantastic. Are other written online interviews of any value ? They do contain information that would be helpful to increase the content of the page, but, of course, as they are interviews, the information came, essentially, from me! This is one of the leading sites in the world of Action Figure Collecting

http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=6059

Part Two

http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=9716

If Video’s and Film count too, would this appearance on ABC telivision on Christmas morning, be anything that one could cite? I have it posted here but it is also available elsewhere on the internet, I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAoPbobU2gw

There is also a video of a segment in which I solved a mystery in a segment of the PBS show History Detectives, A transcript of the show is also posted on line, I suppose it might indicate ot verify a degree of expertise. The producers of the show did a lot of lead up reserch, getting nowhere, until they found me. The transcript is here.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/transcripts/2011-04-25/302_mousetoy.pdf

and the official website is here, where one downloads the above transcript.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/mouse-toy/

And the video of my segment is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rL7DQVys8

ad for the show

http://www.wgte.org/wgte/item.asp?item_id=13329

Best Regards, Mel!

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 01:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

To Curly Turkey, Naraht, etc.

Heres another version of the interview not posted by me. It is longer but not as sharp. It also shows the intro by the late Joel Segal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CJbpXXyNrY

And here is the New York Times Article about the Mickey Mous-eum I found the reference to the title in Heidi and Gilman’s book

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70C16FA3458147B93CAA8178AD95F478785F9

I could scan and post this article, much like I did the other N Y Times article you used. I recall it is quite large with pictures. This one was 9 years later. Best Mel

--MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 03:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The man, who I didnt know, at the time, also posted this, which really should go on the Outer Space Men Page It is the original 1968 Commercial for the Outer Space Men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuejyWzbMGk

And this, also posted by him, was a video I made way back then, when a manufacturer was interested in remaking the Outer Space Men, I didn’t want to send him my originals so I made this tape. I gave a few copies to friends and it has since appeared on line. I posted a sharper version myself with the abc interview combined, but at least I didn’t post this one myself. It’s the original art and prototypes in person along with yours truly. This is another document Important to OSM Collectors. I didn't realize that videos could be linked to Wikipedia, or I probably would have done it, myself, Whoops! years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut00idO4yn4

Best Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 04:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, Mel. As for Paris, NY, that was a sloppy mistake on my part.  I should've just written "Paris" and left it unlinked, but I went ahead and assumed that, since you're in New York, and the article was in the New York Observer, I figured Paris New York must've been the place where you found a Mickey Mouse object in a flea market.  I've fixed that.
 * As to sources, it doesn't matter policy-wise if they're hard-to-find. In fact, sometimes the hard-to-find sources are teh best—or even only—sources available.  The only problem with hard-to-find sources is that it limits who will end up contributing.  For instance, I'm Canadian, and there are a lot of Canada-related articles I would like to improve.  Unfortunately, since I live in Japan, getting my hands on sources can be difficult—even when I know they exist, and where to get them.  The result is I end up working on the articles I do have sources for, and skip the ones I don't.  That's a practical matter, though, not a policy one. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:25, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

My God! Curly Turkey,

“Generation”, from the University of Michigan! Every time you appear, I feel like I am in a dream. You do amaze me! I forgot all about that humble magazine, a student publication. That carousel horse was a scribble I did fast, sketchbook in hand, at Cony Island with a class from Pratt. I gave the drawing to my aunt, who had it framed.

She recently passed away, well into her 90s, and, her daughter, my cousin, gave it back to me. Not having an inch of space left to hang it up, I leaned it against the wall, beside my bed. I look at it each morning, and just did. And then I came to the computer to discover that you research and rescue this insignificant magazine from annals of forgotten memory, 54 years old, It is so strange. It feels like a kind of closure. If this was a movie of my life, this small coincidence, might well serve as the final scene.

Curly Turkey, if you really only have to be able to read the obscure sources, I would be glad to scan and send you plenty, all with the proper identification included, How would I get them to you? post them on line? email them? Some ancient articles like the one included here are on line already in stuff that I have posted before, I did see a pick up from this article on line republished in a newspaper from Lawrence Kansas!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19550810&id=AeZFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xOcMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2340,2541170

The original Detroit article is here, complete. I am not saying it is pertinent, just that if something as old and insignificant as the Generation article is meaningful there might be something in any of these...

http://melbirnkrant.com/recollections/page43.html

the article is down a little, from the Detroit News in 1955. At least is verifies that I went to Mumford High. The school was brand new the year that I went there, they tore it down last year.

Best Mel --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 11:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Curly Turkey, I just noticed “Citation needed” about my being a student at U of Michigan,  Generation Magazine was in fact a student magazine by and about the, then, present  students at the University. None of the other contributors have it listed, either, as they were all U of M students. There was no need for them to list Uof M as that was implicit. --MEL BIRNKRANT (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)