User talk:MOBY

from Talk:Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:
This page doesn't detail much about Teilhard de Chardin's philosophy and important arguments about the role of consciousness in evolution. If nobody minds, I will add it to the article some time. Brianshapiro

It is obvious and clear from his own writings that Teilhard de Chardin was either a pantheist or that he believed in a form of cosmotheism.

'''(cur) (last). . 20:26, 29 Mar 2004. . David Gerard (- Vogelspam (I really doubt Teilhard de Chardin was a white separatist))'''

That is your own POV opinion. However, Cosmotheism is related to Teilhard de Chardin's ideas and ideals, and whether he was a white separatist or not.

Maybe everyone here should be calling your ignorant POV edits and biased POV reverts "Gerardspam"?


 * To place a link to "Cosmotheism" wherever their might be some tenuous association TRULY is SPAM. The Cosmotheism sites seem to promote particular forms of pantheistic attitudes and ideas, yet to declare all people who might have ideas that could be described as Pantheistic as "Cosmotheists" is likely declaring all Christians as ultimately "Roman Catholic". Though some Roman Catholics might have the arrogance to declare that is the case, treating a sectarian faction as if it were the ultimate manifestation of a particular set of ideas, is definitely a skewed POV. - MOBY 16:56, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

PV's initial resonses

 * To place a link to "Cosmotheism" wherever their might be some tenuous association TRULY is SPAM.

I agree, whenever the association is actually "tenuous", which it isn't in this specific case with cosmotheism, whatsoever.


 * The Cosmotheism sites seem to promote particular forms of pantheistic attitudes and ideas, yet to declare all people who might have ideas that could be described as Pantheistic as "Cosmotheists" is likely declaring all Christians as ultimately "Roman Catholic".

That is a false analogy, as the terms "pantheistic" and "cosmotheistic" are synomonous, whereas, the two terms "Christian" and "Roman Catholic" are not.

A correct analogy would be to declare that those that held "Roman Catholic" attitudes and ideas are "Christians", which is both accurate and proper.


 * Though some Roman Catholics might have the arrogance to declare that is the case, treating a sectarian faction as if it were the ultimate manifestation of a particular set of ideas, is definitely a skewed POV. - MOBY 16:56, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That is not the case with "Cosmotheism", whatsoever. Cosmotheism is Pantheism, and either/or terms are closely related to Chardin's own beliefs, hence the link to cosmotheism, and thus, this is NOT SPAM, David Gerard!

further attempt at dialog

 * Cosmotheism, as it is being advocated, is NOT synonymous with pantheism. "Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is a internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one." This is a statement which evokes many interesting ideas… but the operative words here are  "Cosmotheism is a religion" - Pantheism is NOT. Religion in the sense it is usually used is a specific range of ideas, beliefs, and practices by which people form a common community of devotion and purposes. Pantheism is a range of ideas, some of which Cosmotheists might embrace, and others they might reject. The words Pantheism and Cosmotheism can perhaps in some respects be used synonymously… but that is NOT the case with the particular site, and many of the ideas you seem continually trying to promote. A link on the page for cosmotheism, and perhaps one on Pantheism can be justified… but to put a link on the page of a person whose ideas might be somewhat similar in some respects, but to whom there are no particularly concrete links to this particular form of pantheism is truly straining for associations. Please do not interlace your comments in other peoples, in further posts, it makes it very difficult for other people to discern who is speaking and who is not. This is a talk page, and no one likes their comments ammended in such a way as to easily seem to say something that they do not. - MOBY 20:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

PV's RESPONSE to the above (again slicing and dicing other people's words to his own convenience)


 * Cosmotheism, as it is being advocated, is NOT synonymous with pantheism. "Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is a internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one." This is a statement which evokes many interesting ideas… but the operative words here are  "Cosmotheism is a religion" - Pantheism is NOT.

Cosmotheism is Pantheism, and they BOTH ARE Religious Worldviews, whether you "think so" or not. PV


 * Religion in the sense it is usually used is a specific range of ideas, beliefs, and practices by which people form a common community of devotion and purposes.

That is only your own POV "definition", and the essential thing that makes both COSMOTHEISM=PANTHEISM and vice-versa is the specific belief that "GOD" is the WHOLE of COSMOS, itself! PV
 * ALL definitions of ANYTHING must involve a POV, and your continually insistence that this particular form of pantheism is synonymous with pantheism, which is a term that can be applied to a wide range of ideas beyond this particular form, is MORE absurd than calling all Christians actually "Roman Catholics"… it is akin to calling all theists necessarily "Christians" it is a very strained and absurd definition. My own ideas tend to be pantheistic in many ways, and I actually think the term Cosmotheism is an interesting term with similar evocations, but the particular use of the term on the sites you are promoting can be equated to a particular sectarian faction of a much broader range of ideas. - Moby 22:04, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Pantheism is a range of ideas, some of which Cosmotheists might embrace, and others they might reject. The words Pantheism and Cosmotheism can perhaps in some respects be used synonymously… but that is NOT the case with the particular site, and many of the ideas you seem continually trying to promote.

Yes, just as in many other religions, there is a range of beliefs. But, the essential belief is that GOD is the WHOLE of COSMOS, itself. Many other ideas are related to this belief, and not the least of which is CONSCIOUS EVOLUTION, and this is related to our true Human purpose and place and meaning, within the COSMOS. PV


 * A link on the page for cosmotheism, and perhaps one on Pantheism can be justified… but to put a link on the page of a person whose ideas might be somewhat similar in some respects, but to whom there are no particularly concrete links to this particular form of pantheism is truly straining for associations.

Not really. The essential belief is CONSCIOUS EVOLUTION, which Chardin shares more with COSMOTHEISTS, than with many so-called PANTHEISTS, actually, Social-Marxist Pan-Atheists. PV


 * Please do not interlace your comments in other peoples, in further posts, it makes it very difficult for other people to discern who is speaking and who is not. This is a talk page, and no one likes their comments ammended in such a way as to easily seem to say something that they do not. - MOBY 20:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is quite clear who or whom is actually speaking by the context. If you don't like it, don't speak with me. PV

After a refreshing pause from an attempt at dialog with PV, where I simply observed his generally rude obstinacy, I eventually posted this at Talk:Cosmotheism:

A POV against many of PV's POVs
I have just joined with others in reverting a deletion of links that PV seems insistent on preventing others from seeing. Some people can't seem to get the hints that most rational human society, and maybe indeed the whole universe, is in some sense against their particular forms of bigotry, far more than they are in any way for it.

I am a rather patient person, and have simply observed without comment for several days now the attempts at honest dialog and commentary, and the attempts to disrupt and discourage it, that have been made on some of the pages that PV is inclined to promote his POVs. Hypocrisies exist to the extreme, when people strain to make positive and absolute associations with people who would likely be repulsed and revolted by their particular views and ideas, and seek to eliminate any direct criticism of such views as they are inclined to promote as "irrelevant", and unworthy of any consideration.

It is a certainty that labels are always limited in their application, and can be dangerously misused and abused by those who delight in manipulating others impressions and will in dishonest ways. The most absurdly obnoxious and pathetically narrow minded of bigots will often rely upon them and various connotations that they have, to try and make their own particular bigotries seem almost sane and reasonable. Sometimes they will succeed for a time, with some people who are ignorant of some important details, but where information is freely available few remain fooled for very long.

It is not an entirely original observation to say that when a person is inclined to interrupt others, and to break up or eliminate other people's coherent statements of their views, opinions, and expressions of facts, it usually reveals a marked lack of having many of their own. Such behavior is often manifest among those unusually obsessed with the idea of winning over others they like to presume are "inferior", and in making any efforts they can at seeming right rather than in making any sincere effort at being so. One who is not familiar with the actual progression of the attempts at dialog, as they have occurred, can become very confused as to who, or is not, actually speaking and what points are attempting to be made. That certain individuals insist on making such interjections as disrupt the flow of others expressions, to thoroughly ravage any attempts by others to make their points in a cohesive manner, reveals an extreme rudeness, and an extreme inability to even tolerate cohesive and rational dialog and argument. They say such things as if you don't like their rudeness, then "Don't talk to me", in attempts to mantain their own vain sense of superiority.

From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous. Some people's primary purpose often seems to be to show others how stupid and bigoted a human being can become. It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying. And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality. Those who would insist otherwise are to that extent solipsists, rather than pantheists. I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections, and some are more focused only upon themselves, their narrow concerns, and upon that which is to be excluded, ignored, and denigrated, often very improperly. These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums. When the pressures of poorly digested facts and ideas are at work, there can often seem to be no end to the foulness that can emerge from them. One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.

I thoroughly expect that PV will break up my assertions with interjections of his own, and would be delighted if in this one instance at least he could actually resist his impulses to be rudely reactive, and actually prove me mistaken. - Moby  01:17, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I am "Rudely reactive"? Hardly. LOL! :D

Was your rant above, Moby, really just lying and hypocritical and typical Psychological projection? Absolutely. This is quite typical of "SSEE" or "Malignant Narcissistic" mental pathologies.

-PV

A response from an ally in rationality
Very thoughtful comments. Thanks, BCorr | &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; 01:44, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

posting by PV here:
From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous.

"Obviously, you just don't really understand what is meant by that Cosmotheist affirmation."-PV

It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying.

"Who or whom is actually ignoring or denying this?"-PV

And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality.

"Again, obviously, you just don't really understand what is meant by that Cosmotheist affirmation, either."-PV

I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections,.

"And indeed, that is what Cosmotheists do".-PV

One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.

"Indeed, you had, and mostly to only your own self".-PV Mody, was that really just lying and hypocritical and typical Psychological projection? Absolutely.

This is quite typical of "SSEE" or "Malignant Narcissistic" mental pathologies. [2]

-PV -

A response by Moby

 * [minor adjustment: corrected a typo in this where I had typed "there" for "their"] These words were orignially posted to the Cosmotheism talk page in response to a long list of notable people which PV attempted to declare to be pantheists, and thus cosmotheists, and thus implicitly people who would support and promote the often ridiculous and contemptable ideas of such groups and individuals as currently call themselves "Cosmotheists".

I try not to waste too much of my time dealing with extremely bigoted and obtuse fanatics of any persuasion, but occasionally their excesses will prompt me to some action, even if it is only to comment.

Archaic and little known but valid definition: cosmotheism = pantheism. ACCEPTED.

Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:

cosmotheism + bigoted, "racialist", solipsistic nonsense = Cosmotheism, AND THUS cosmotheism = Cosmotheism, and THUS EQUALS the ultimate representative of all "True" pantheists, and is THUS justified in appropriating all manner of dignified and well heralded names of any philosopher or thinker past, present or future to its "Holy" cause. That it is plainly not the dominant view of all "right-thinking" individuals is only because of nefarious "ZOG" conspiracies, and the like.

''I AM ENLIGHTENED! My Holy Universe! How could I not see it before! PV has the ultimate POV of GOD! ALL HAIL his stupendous genius!'' — since I am not deranged I do not ever say such things save with wearied mockery.

Some people seem to have far more time to disrupt genuine progress in the world than to make any attempt at actually understanding it. The catalog of great thinkers who were NOT "Cosmotheists" in the particular sense is an interesting and yet invalid appeal to claiming that everyone who doesn't embrace "Cosmotheism" is an incompetent moron, and the dupe of "Zionist" conspiracies. Even with the wide range of nonsense that exists in the world, I don't think too many people are going to get hooked on PV's particular form of it. Thank the KOSMOS!

(By the way PV, I'm not "David Gerard's" "sock-puppet", and to my remembrance I have not as yet had any form of dialog with him anywhere. As in many other things you seem to be a bit overconfident in your assessments of what is likely, what is real, what is true, and what is rational.) I assert that despite my irritation at your obstinacy, and your being an insulter of most people's intelligence, and an accuser of anyone who disagrees with you of being pathologically narcissistic (try and see beyond yourself and actually think about that diagnosis a bit), in your being a nuisance to a lot of other people, I have no ill-will towards you, and truly hope you someday come to know the true joy of really understanding that not everyone in the world who is inclined to disagree with you on anything is a total idiot. ~ Moby 22:45, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A response by Moby, David Gerard's Sock puppet?
"I try not to waste too much of my time dealing with extremely bigoted and obtuse fanatics of any persuasion, but occasionally there excesses will prompt me to some action, even if it is only to comment."

Psychological projection?-PV

"Archaic and little known but valid definition: cosmotheism = pantheism. ACCEPTED."

That has already been factually cited as being true.-PV

Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:

cosmotheism + bigoted, "racialist", solipsistic nonsense = Cosmotheism, AND THUS cosmotheism = Cosmotheism, and THUS EQUALS the ultimate representative of all "True" pantheists, and is THUS justified in appropriating all manner of dignified and well heralded names of any philosopher or thinker past, present or future to its "Holy" cause.

"Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:", I could not agree more! LOL! :D That is really only MOBY's own "absurd and appallingly ill illogic", and not mine nor any true Cosmotheists' own reasoning. "Strawman arguement", MOBY.-PV

That it is plainly not the dominant view of all "right-thinking" individuals is only because of nefarious "ZOG" conspiracies, and the like.

LOL! :D There is always some TRUTH in such HUMOR! :D-PV

''I AM ENLIGHTENED! My Holy Universe! How could I not see it before! PV has the ultimate POV of GOD! ALL HAIL his stupendous genius!'' — since I am not deranged I do not ever say such things save with wearied mockery.

Indeed. What could be more ENLIGHTENING than actually realizing that "GOD is the impersonal COSMOS and the COSMOS is a impersonal GOD"?-PV

Some people seem to have far more time to disrupt genuine progress in the world than to make any attempt at actually understanding it.

LOL! :D No arguement there!-PV

The catalog of great thinkers who were NOT "Cosmotheists" in the particular sense is an interesting and yet invalid appeal to claiming that everyone who doesn't embrace "Cosmotheism" is an incompetent moron, and the dupe of "Zionist" conspiracies.

"Absurd and appallingly ill illogic:", yet again! LOL! :D But, many that can't actually understand Cosmotheism are incompetent morons, and many that wouldn't embrace it, even if they weren't morons, are only either lacking in factual knowledge, personal integrity, intellectual honesty, or moral courage, and no more and no less. What else isn't new?-PV

Even with the wide range of nonsense that exists in the world, I don't think too many people are going to get hooked on PV's particular form of it. Thank the KOSMOS!

I do completely agree! True Cosmotheism only banishes the "drug" of those "hooked on SSEE delusions" of only those that have the real strength of character, or the actual personal integrity to uphold it.-PV

By the way PV, I'm not "David Gerard's" "sock-puppet", and to my remembrance I have not as yet had any form of dialog with him anywhere.

Sure, David Gerard, sure. You may as well as be, if not in fact. -PV

As in many other things you seem to be a bit overconfident in your assessments of what is likely, what is real, what is true, and what is rational.

Hardly. I do trust my own judgements. More often than not I am correct.-PV

I assert that despite my irritation at your obstinacy, and your being an insulter of most people's intelligence, and an accuser of anyone who disagrees with you of being pathologically narcissistic (try and see beyond yourself and actually think about that diagnosis a bit), in your being a nuisance to a lot of other people, I have no ill-will towards you, and truly hope you someday come to know the true joy of really understanding that not everyone in the world who is inclined to disagree with you on anything is a total idiot. ~ Moby 22:45, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

More Psychological projection, MOBY, but, I do harbor no real ill will towards anyone, personally, either. Unfortunately, most people that I have found that are "emotionally inclined" to "irrationally" disagree with me are only either quite "rationally-challenged" dogmatists and bigots, if not just total idiots, or they just lack any actual personal integrity. So be it.-PV

Best regards,

Paul Vogel

http://www.cosmotheism.net

Vogel stuck his copy of Cosmotheism here. I reverted it. Hope you don't mind. - Fennec 23:02, May 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't mind it at all. I had noted it myself and was busy writing up a response to his rudeness before erasing it myself. His obnoxiousness has motivated me to a bit of writing that I might eventually post here or elsewhere. Thanks for disposing of the garbage. - Moby 23:59, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

A response to posts of a most conniving and pernicious nature:
To those who are not very interested in the matters being debated, excuse my verbosity, but sometimes no amount of words are adequate to convey the irritation we can feel at some forms of behaviour, and yet we must vent our outrage with some form of expression. Sometimes a rant is well deserved response to some forms of extreme arrogance, presumption, and forces at work for sheer EVIL.

To anyone who is reasonable: I am intent on erasing MUCH but not all of the asinine idiocy that a certain individual has seen fit to post on my talk page, perhaps thinking I might provide a place of safe haven for posting MANY of his extremely warped views. It remains in the database record if you are masochistic or deranged enough to want to try to read through all of it. 'If a person is so paranoid, unsocial, anti-social, pig-headed, obnoxious, rude and just plain stupid that they don't even try to establish and maintain their own user page among decent human beings, or behave in a manner that even attempts to acknowledge or accommodate the rights of others beyond those that are imposed by their own selfish and bigoted interests, I am certainly not going to let them take over my talk page to post all the extremely insulting and spiritually retarded'' nonsense they are inclined to post that they can't get away with posting elsewhere. I'm sure there are probably worse and more obnoxious fools in existence, but thus far I have encountered no one on the Wikipedia, or on the entire web for that matter, who more exhibits the severe signs of the narcissism that this person is so fond of accusing others of exhibiting. Some people seem to have their heads so far up their own fundaments that it is a wonder that they can see anything at all. It doesn't take a "Kangaroo Court" to recognize a pile of manure.

To PV, whose addiction to rants of Pathetic Vitriol against others is truly alarming; to whom anyone who does not agree with him is regarded as a "Marxist"or "Zionist" agent or dupe, or else a "malignant narcissist": "Narcissistic" does not even begin to convey your absurd infatuation with yourself, and your extremely deficient ability to respond to others in civil and sincerely respectful ways. There is a great deal of calm, restrained advice that certain professionals might be able to give you, that I doubt you would seek, but I will indulge in a little venting of my own irritation with you, without indulging in some of the profanity that can come very easily to mind: '''GROW UP, YOU PALTRY MISERABLE WRETCHED WASTER OF OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME AND LIFE AND ATTENTION. ' Why don't you actually try reading something by some of the great ethical and mystical philosophers of history instead of trying to imply or claim they would all eagerly embrace the grandiose pettiness'' and absurd enshrinement of paltry bigotry that you seem to think is a path to eternal grandeur and "Godhood".

I will now quote an article on your "hero", "Dr." Pierce:


 *  "All of the homosexuals, racemixers, and hard-case collaborators in the country who are too far gone to be re-educated can be rounded up, packed into 10,000 or so railroad cattle cars, and eventually double-timed into an abandoned coal mine in a few days' time," he wrote in a 1994 newsletter.  "All of these people simply don't count, except as a mass of voters. . . . Those who speak against us now should be looked at as dead men, as men marching in lockstep toward their own graves." Like others on the far right, he held Jews, not blacks or gays, to be the main target. He had a special thing for race-mixing women, whom he pictured in The Turner Diaries hanging by the neck from telephone poles with their eyes bugged out. - Village Voice article

I suspect the source will imply to PV that I am definitely a "Pinko" of some sorts (but just speaking against his views usually suffices there) but it just happens to be the top hit I got when I entered "Pierce", "Hitler", and "nazi" into a google search.

I will quote a certain individual that Pierce, and you and your "ilk" seem to have a great deal of admiration for, and then a few people who were executed during his brief but bloody reign.


 * We have to put a stop to the idea that it is a part of everybody's civil rights to say whatever he pleases. - Adolf Hitler, from a conversation transcribed on Februatry 22, 1942

Luckily for you, most people who disagree with you don't go so far as these "great heroes" of the "National Alliance" in seeking to silence you, though you certainly can sometimes make the idea seem appealing.

A few others from Mein Kampf that I do think go a long way to explaining your own behaviour, and apparent ideas:


 * ''No amount of genius spent on the creation of propaganda will lead to success if a fundamental principle is not forever kept in mind. Propaganda must confine itself to very few points, and repeat them endlessly. Here, as with so many things in this world, persistence is the first and foremost condition of success.


 * The application of force alone, without moral support based on a spiritual concept, can never bring about the destruction of an idea or arrest the propagation of it, unless one is ready and able ruthlessly to exterminate the last upholders of that idea even to a man, and also wipe out any tradition which it may tend to leave behind. 


 * ''Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook.


 * ''In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie. 

And finally another quote of Hitler's:
 * '' I have not come into this world to make men better, but to make use of their weaknesses.

It is appalling that there remains so many weak-souled and weak-minded individuals as can still consider this depraved abomination a hero, and I will now quote from some leaflets of a few who died opposing him, who belonged to the German group known as The White Rose:


 * ''It is impossible to engage in intellectual discourse with National Socialist Philosophy, for if there were such an entity, one would have to try by means of analysis and discussion either to prove its validity or to combat it. In actuality, however, we face a totally different situation. At it's very inception this movement depended on the deception and betrayal of one's fellow man; even at that time it was inwardly corrupt and could support itself only by constant lies.

In the next passage I will concede that they go a bit too far in their own rhetoric, for I do not accept that every word out of his mouth was a lie… but I do not doubt that most were spoken by a man deranged, and very much inclined to lie to others, and even to himself about the nature of reality, historical circumstances and his own personal fate.


 * Every word that comes from Hitler's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the National Socialist terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doublts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of this war.

I am posting this on my talk page, and might post it in a few other spots where I and others have attempted dialog with you, only to have our statements butchered up into convenient little bits that your plainly small mind can attempt to digest and respond to, and do not expect that it will be spared from the same treatment. Except that on my talk page I can certainly insist on maintaining it intact.

Despite the loathsomeness of your attitudes and behaviour, I don't wish that any ill fate befalls you, indeed I hope that lucidity can eventually arrive into your mixed up mind, and I truly hope you evolve to the decent human being level sometime soon: I assure you, with great confidence: YOU ARE CERTAINLY A VERY LONG WAY FROM GODHOOD. - Moby 17:09, 6 May 2004 (UTC)