User talk:MSJapan/Archive 2

User:Anderson12
I figured this was likely, but wouldn't block solely on an assumption, particularly given that their editing styles seem to differ. Let me know if there are any developments on Anderson12. Ral315 (talk) 06:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * MSJ... thanks for fixing Anderson12's vandalism on my home page. I do not mind if he checks me for being a sock... since I am not, I have nothing to fear.  As for his vandalism on the Freemasonry Talk page... could you report it?

Blueboar 16:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Islam & FM
Why not cite these?

http://www.harunyahya.com/globalfreemasonry_introduction.php

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547288


 * Definitely interesting. I'll look them over when I get a chance and see if we can't use them. MSJapan 11:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

user check?
re: Freemasonry edit war... Do we have enough reason to run a user check? This guy is a new user who has only edited the Freemasonry related pages... but seems to care a lot about and be familiar with past edits. Blueboar 15:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * then please do the honors. the sooner we get this bozo blocked the better. Blueboar 15:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, he has been very careful about 3rrr... up to three changes and then he shifts to a new area. However, some interesting facts about his changes that might make the point of his being a Basil/Anderson12 puppet.  He knows (and cares) about 'your' deletion of the 'secrets' section (for a new user this is suspicious.  He wants to make Freemasonry seem racialy biased (edits to Prince Hall section).  He keeps finding ways to say that we are a "secret society" (exactly 3 revers in the intro, and then added a tag to secret societies.  The use of the term "Masonic Editors" when complaining about reverts.  Unfortunately, we may need to give him more time to prove that he is indeed a puppet. Blueboar 16:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You asked "Can you figure out a way to categorize the reverts in some way and post it to 3RR under the appropriate heading?"... that is hard for me to do... Even after all this time, I am weak on how to point to reverts and edits for puppet checks. Is there a WP page that I could go to to learn? Blueboar 16:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Freemasonry
(edit conflict message) I've protected this article to stop edit warring. User:Keystrokes has been delisted from AIV, as they don't seem to be making obvious vandalism, and commented on the protection on 3RR Reports. I'm going to recuse myself from determining the possible 3RR breach on this article though, and will revist the protection in a few days if antoher admin has not lifted it. Thanks, xaosflux  Talk  / CVU 16:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

User: MSJapan
I have closely observed your behaviour on the Freemasonry related pages and have determined you are probably the single largest source of bad feelings. Your conduct is reprehensible and consists largely of manipulation of Wikipedia rules and spirit and inciting other Masons to do likewise. You routinely delete material without discussion claiming others didn't discuss it first, while do the exact oppposite when it is material you desire to be included. Your behaviour today on the External Links is true to type for you. You massivley deleted a dozen external links with no summary, discussion, or explanation, and then when I tried to re-insert them you and your followers claimed it must be discussed first! You claimed to be "uncertain" of why there were no references to forget me not flower contradictory links and when I added them you and your followers deleted them!. The sooner you and your masonic followers are permanently banned from the Freemasonry pages the better!!!!Keystrokes 16:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I bet you'r losing sleep over Keystrokes... NOT. Actually its kind of a back-handed Honour for you. :) Imacomp 22:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible personal attack
Sorry to drag you in on this. User:UndergroundRailroad is accusing User:Pm shef of making personal attacks. After several days he finally pointed out what he was referring to. The attacks in question were on a couple of candidates for city council in Vaughn, Ontario and not another user. However, here Pm shef calls the person who nominated Alan Shefman for AfD as a "troublemaker". That so called troublemaker turns out to be you. Could you please let us know what your feelings on this are. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 02:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's an issue because User:UndergroundRailroad has misunderstood what WP:NPA is about. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 03:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

40 Days of Lent and his personal attacks
I think we ought to follow the suggestions on Personal attack intervention noticeboard and slap a tag on his talk page each time he engages in a personal attack (which he does frequently) from now on. I've allready did the first - I'm also compiling a list of offences, so if you put on another tag, let me know which edits of his you did it for. Thanks, WegianWarrior 11:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Mackey quote
Thought you might appreciate a  heads up. JASpencer 13:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Stop placing warnings on my talk page
You have absolutely no authority to do so, you are not an admin. What you are doing is simply vandalism. Also I have noted that you did not sign the warning in an obvious attempt to conceal your activity and make it seem as it was done by Wikipedia.40 Days of Lent 05:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've placed a reply on 40DOL's talkpage, refering him to WP:PAIN and the instructions contained there (which clearly shows that it's the others editors duty to place the tags before alerting an editor). WegianWarrior 05:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

User RFC
I'm happy to participate in an RFC as mentioned in my talk page. I've been away for a couple of days, hence the delay in getting back to you.ALR 21:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I sent it back a few days ago, I'll resend it.ALR 15:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

LB, socks and long term abuse
Good find. I've taken most of a page I'd allready cobbled together in my userspace and created an entry on our 'friend'. Feel free to add more evidence, and let the others know. WegianWarrior 07:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, same old rants coming out. Any moment now he'll be demanding all self identified masons be banned from editing any pages we have the expertise to comment on in an informed manner :) ALR 13:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Have we checked on the current one? Blueboar 05:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Uncivil Comments and Behaviour
I urge you change your behaviour. Quickly.Fyodor Dos 03:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The internet troll User:Fyodor Dos should be blocked permanently. Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Fyodor_Dos shows that this account was created for edit war and rumor against freemasonry only. 84.61.5.97 04:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Falsely accusing others you dissagree with
Anytime you don't like what someone else says you accuse them of being someone else, or being a puppet of someone else. You delete what they post, you even try to delete them. I hope you know that you will reap what you plant. You have been acting like a puppet of Satan. Repent for the time is short. user:KJVTRUTH

Freemasonry in Germany
You asked for some documents to get a historical overview.


 * de:Geschichte_der_Freimaurerei
 * de:Gustav_Stresemann might be interesting
 * http://www.internetloge.de (good ressource)

de:Tempelarbeit - The masonic "secret".

There are really lots of documents, but the best historical summary I know is this "Verschwiegene Männer - Freimaurer in Deutschland" of the Protestant Church. Perhaps you want to send me your e-mail address, I could send you some documents or scans if you wish? webmaster@sgovd.org 84.61.5.97 05:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Kulturkampf
Does any of the “evidence” support any links to a “Mason” let alone Masonic support for the Kulturkampf? If not then the section needs removing. Imacomp 15:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Internationales Freimaurerlexikon says:
 * ...der deutsche Kulturkampf kam nach kurzer Zeit zum Stehen, er hat daher die deutsche Freimaurerei auch nicht wesentlich beeinflusst. Anders liegt die Sache in jenen Staaten, die eigentlich einen chronischen Kulturkampf durchzufechten haben, das sind in erster Linie die romanischen Länder. Aus diesen zwischen Staat und Kirche jahrhundertelang geführten erbitterten Kämpfen erklärt sich auch das aktivere Hinvortreten der Freimaurer, besonders Frankreichs. Die Freimaurer stehen in den romanischen Ländern auf Seite des Staates, der eine Loslösung von der kirchlichen Gewalt ("control, domination") anstrebt. Da dieser Kampf von seiten der Kirche selbstverständlich mit politischen Mitteln geführt wird und geführt werden muss, sind auch die Freimaurer wiederholt in der politischen Arena für die von ihnen verteidigten Grundsätze zu sehen gewesen. Dem Wesen nach ist die Freimaurerei ebensowenig antikatholisch, als sie antiprotestantisch oder antijüdisch ist. Sie bekämpft nicht die Kirche. Sie verteidigt aber in jenen Staaten, wo auch heute noch ein Kulturkampf im Gange ist, die Rechte auf die Freiheit des Geistes und der Überzeugung. In Frankreich ist der Inhalt des Kulturkampfes heute vornehmlich die Laienschule (secularist system of thought), die von den Freimaurern gegenüber den katholischen Ansprüchen auf allgemeine Einführung der konfessionellen Schule entschieden verteidigt wird.


 * So there's Masonic support for a secularistic, but not anticatholic or antireligious "Kulturkampf", not in Germany, but in France and other romanic states. webmaster@sgovd.org, 84.61.5.97 19:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Passing the above through translation gives – "German kulturkampf came to a quick end, so German Freemasonry was not substantially affected. In contrast kulturkampf lies in those states, which have had protracted kulturkampf, primarily in Roman Catholic countries. Centuries of embittered fights between State and Church, particularly in France, involves Freemasonry on side of the state, which aims at a detachment of Church domination. The Church and Freemasonry are the natural leaders in the political arena to defend their respective principles. Freemasonry, after its nature in these countries, is equally just as little anti-catholic, as it is anti-Protestant or anti-Jewish (that is non-dogmatic). It does not fight the institution of the Church; rather, it still defends today another kulturkampf, the rights to liberty of the spirit and conviction. In France the present kulturkampf is mainly Freemasons’ defence of the secular school system secularistic idea in contrast to the Roman Catholic requirements of a general introduction of Church School Education a confessional concept." Imacomp 21:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I corrected some translation errors.
 * ebensowenig means "just as little"
 * "Schule" doesn't mean "school" here, but "system of thought", "doctrine" or similar
 * webmaster@sgovd.org, 84.61.5.97 23:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. So I think it supports incidents in France and other places that are already documented, but I don't really see a case for any Masonry-related effect in Germany.  Thanks for the links, BTW.  I'll have to get to them once the vandals quiet down. MSJapan 06:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

3rr Violation Reported
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:MSJapan_and_Blueboar]Fyodor Dos 06:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't work that way, but it certainly proves that you had four reverts. MSJapan 06:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * My first edit doesn't count towards rv total, so my count is only three, unlike you and User:Blueboar.Fyodor Dos 06:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sod off Fyodor Dos sock o' Lightbriger! Is that a personal insult? So report it :) Imacomp 15:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

AfD page
You may wish to be aware of Martin Faulks which I have nominated for deletion []. ALR 07:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Review request
I've been working on an article related to Appendant bodies and would appreciate you casting an eye over it. The bit about other order mentioning Shriners etc could usefully use some input from your side of the pond, similarly the section on youth organisations. [] TIAALR 15:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Rosicrucian
Please check my edit for errors. webmaster@sgovd.org, 84.61.16.215 18:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Kulturkampf 2
Kulturkampf heisst Kampf zwischen der katholischen Kirche und dem Deutschen Reich, namentlich in Preussen, seit 1872, ein zuerst von Virchow gebrauchter Ausdruck im Sinne des Kampfes für die Kultur von ultramontaner Seite gedeutet als der Kampf gegen die Kultur, d. h. die katholische Kirche, wie denn auch besonders eifrige Verteidiger der staatlichen Autorität gegenüber der römischen Kurie als Kulturkämpfer bezeichnet werden. Auch die Freimaurer werden von Ultramontanen als Kulturkämpfer betrachtet und ihnen die Schuld an diesem Kampf mit zugewiesen. Soweit hierbei nur die einzelnen Personen in Frage kommen, hat die Freimaurerei nicht dabei zu thun, da jeder im Bunde seine eigene Meinung innerhalb der staatlichen Ordnung hat. Der Freimaurerbund selbst aber bleibt unmittelbar ebenfalls ausser Spiel, da er sich in öffentliche Angelegenheiten als solcher nicht einmengt, wohl aber befördert die Freimaurerei die freie Wissenschaft, die keinen Rückschritt duldet, und die Gewissensfreiheit in Hinsicht auf den Glauben, die sich stützt auf die ewige Liebe und die beseligende Ahnung einer höheren Bestimmung. Die Freimaurerei will sittliche Freiheit unter Leitung der göttlichen Liebesmacht, nicht einen starren Buchstabenglauben und dessen hierarchische Machtentfaltung. Denn alle Kultur hängt von der sittlichen Freiheit der Menschen ab und geht mit der Knechtschaft zu Grunde. Wenn in solchem Sinne mittelbar Freimaurer Kulturkämpfer werden, d. h. Kämpfer für Sitte, Religion und Ordnung, so sind sie deshalb noch lange nicht Gegner der Kirche im allgemeinen oder der katholischen Kirche insbesondere, sondern nur derer, die solche zu anderen Zwecken, als der in der Sache und der Idee selbst liegenden benutzen. Man kann deshalb die Freimaurerei nicht verdammen, ohne dem Kulturfortschritt der Menschheit ins Gesicht zu schlagen.

Lenning, encyclopedia, 1900

--SGOvD webmaster (talk) 00:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Raw (in unaltered grammar) translation:

Kulturkampf is called fight between the catholic church and the German Reich, in particular in Prussia, since 1872, an expression in the sense of the fight for the culture of ultramontaner side, used first by Virchow, interpreted as the fight against the culture, i.e. the catholic church, as also particularly eager defenders are called in relation to the national authority the Roman Kurie culture fighters. Also the Freemasons are regarded of Ultramontanen as culture warriors and assigned to them the debt at this fight with. As far as here only the individual persons are applicable, the Freemasonry does not have thereby too thun since everyone has its own opinion in the federation within the national order. The Freemasonry federation however remains directly likewise except play, since it does not in-mix itself into public affairs as such, probably however carries the Freemasonry the free science, which does not bear a backward step, and which relies freedom of conscience in regard to the faith, on the eternal love and the making happy notion of a higher regulation. The Freemasonry wants moral liberty under line of göttlichen dear power, not a rigid letter faith and its hierarchical display of power. Because all culture depends on the moral liberty of humans and goes with the farmhand shank to reason. If in such sense Freemasons become indirect culture fighters, i.e. fighters for custom, religion and order, then are them therefore still for a long time not opponents of the church generally or the catholic church in particular, but only those, the such for other purposes, than use lying in the thing and the idea. One cannot condemn therefore the Freemasonry, without striking culture progress of mankind in the face. Imacomp 15:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Important AfD

 * The article for the G10 Group of Prestigious Canadian Universities is up for Deletion, please go and support Education related articles in Canada. This is a very important group of schools, Canada's version of the Ivy League, and it needs your support! -- pm_shef 04:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Help
If you have a minute, I could use some help at Talk:McGill Redmen especially in relation to no personal attacks. Thanks. Ardenn 05:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

IP Addresses
Interesting :)


 * [] was Fyodor Dos


 * [] is JKWithers

Wonder how long it'll be until that's an illuminating mistake on his part.ALR 16:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm, not very long at all :) Imacomp 22:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Shaw Communications Inc., Shaw High-Speed Internet, Canada, British Columbia, Victoria with a certainity of 95%. --SGOvD webmaster (talk) 03:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Apologies
I apologise for falsely labeling User:Blueboar as a Lightbringer sock. When I was reading the talk page of User:Fyodor Dos, I saw a comment which I misunderstood as claiming that he was connected with Fyodor Dos, but on closer inspection, I found this comment to actually be nonsense posted by Fyodor Dos himself. Thank you for informing me about this. - Conrad Devonshire 02:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Missunderstanding
Hi, I'm Nulo Siniestro (the one with the input on list of freemasons), I didn't mean that, by any means, it was just an opinion (a rather harsh one, I know) about the "completeness" of the article, this are things one knows around here, but I too will search for the proper info and sources, what really caugth me off guard was the absence of Miranda, who is a wide-known freemason. Hope I've cleared things out. --Nulo Siniestro 05:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The inquisition
Catholicism and Freemasonry is a view only on Freemasonry but there's only a small paragraph about the inquisition. In Portugal 25 men were put in dungeon of the inquisition for six years, in 1815 five Freemasons were hanged in Granada, in 1819 two died in Madrid because of torture, in 1825 seven were killed in Granada, the following february Antonio Caro died with the words "Long live Freemasonry!" After he was killed they cut off his right hand. And his is only the 19th century. But quite another dimension in contrast to a "Kulturkampf" and similar accusations. That's all an diversion tactic and denunciation. I would add all this, but I have only my German sources. :-( --SGOvD webmaster (talk) 05:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Again Kulturkampf
I've found a webpage with interesting information about Kulturkampf. Nothing about Freemasonry. Sources are the most important German encyclopedias including Brockhaus: http://www.arenberg-info.de/htm/Kulturkf.htm Tell me if I can help you with translation.

--SGOvD webmaster (talk) 09:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Article
You might like to read this [], heavy but interesting.ALR 14:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Côte d'Ivoire vs. Ivory Coast
Côte d'Ivoire is the more accepted name for the country in the English language, even though it's French. If you go to Ivory Coast you will see that it redirects to Côte d'Ivoire, and not the other way around (and the English form of the name in the infobox actually uses Côte d'Ivoire). It is irrelevant what a Google search brings up. The Grand Lodge undoubtedly uses the term "Côte d'Ivoire" to refer to itself, as French is the official language of the nation, and it is also the term Wikipedia is using for the nation. Osgoodelawyer 14:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. The Grand Lodge of Scotland and the Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon use "Côte d'Ivoire" (well, actually the GLOS uses "Cote d'Ivoire" without the circumflex, but that's just laziness).  It's not an official lodge name issue we have here (since all the "official" lodge names are going to be in their country's official language(s), which we're not going to use), it's an official country name issue.  And on Wikipedia, that's Côte d'Ivoire. Osgoodelawyer 15:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

UGLE calls it Grand Lodge of Ivory Coast. --Ardenn 17:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn's change has been reverted, and it doesn't look like it's going to go back. Wikipedia's use is clearly Côte d'Ivoire. But call it whatever you want on the Grand Lodges page--I'm getting tired of talking about Côte d'Ivoire. Osgoodelawyer 03:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Blanchard's Scotch Rite
When you get a chance, we need the citation info for Blanchard's Scotch Rite book for the Catholicism and Freemasonry page: The full title of the book, Blanchard's full name, the publisher, date of publication, and the page(s) for the stuff about trampling the tiara and shouting "down with the Pope" or what ever the alligaion was. Since the book is not available on line we should probably be ready to provide an exact quotation. This is one of those rare situations where I would agree that quoting a source might be appropriate (I would put it in the main article text ... but I could agree to put it as a foot note if JASpencer insists). Thanks Blueboar 12:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No rush... thanks. Blueboar 15:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

quotations, footnotes and references
MSJ... As you may know, JASpencer and I are having a minor argument over how to present quotations that support statements made in the various Freemasonry related articles. JAS preffers to include them in the citations, as footnotes, while I feel they should be included in the main text. Would you be so kind as to check out my sample section at Catholicism and Freemasonry/example and compare it to the same section at the Catholicism and Freemasonry article. I would be interested in your oppinion (as well as those of all the editors of these articles) as to which style you prefer. Feel free to pass this on to any one you feel would give an honest oppinion. (sent to all regular editors of the Freemasonry related pages) Blueboar 18:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

D'n'D
I think that D'n'D is a good redirect to Dungeons and Dragons. I have seen it written that way. But if you feel that you want D'n'D deleted, you can nominate it at RfD (Redirects for deletion). I will not object to it, but I think it is a good redirect. 132.205.45.148 19:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

FYI
Articles for deletion/Rui Gabirro  Ardenn  23:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

RGLE
Template:Ip is a welcome message for anon users to encourage them to get a username; you should use user or vandal for both usernames and IP numbers. I screwed this up when I was new. Thatcher131 15:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

AfD Nomination Regular Grand Lodge of England
I've nominated the article Regular Grand Lodge of England for deletion under the Articles for deletion process. We appreciate your contributions, but in this particular case I do not feel that Regular Grand Lodge of England satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. I have explained why in the nomination space (see What Wikipedia is not and Deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Regular Grand Lodge of England. Don't forget to add four tildes (&tilde;&tilde;&tilde;&tilde;) at the end of each of your comments to sign them. You are free to edit the content of Regular Grand Lodge of England during the discussion, but please do not remove the "Articles for Deletion" template (the box at the top). Doing so will not end the discussion. Ardenn 05:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Freemasonry Talk
The freemasonry talk page seems to be blocked from reading or editing? Imacomp 16:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, so now the page works. Doh? Imacomp 17:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Stevertigo
Agree with your concerns, the proposed edits are deceptive and, frankly, complete bull. I'll keep a watching brief, but given the current approach you'd have my support for any systemic action.ALR 13:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I2 :) Imacomp 20:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Gives Grip

 * I'm currently juggling three “Order Chairs”, help! (Imagine a younger Victor Hugo in USAF “mirror shades” – a can o’ beer in one hand, Ritual in the other) Its Summer! :)  Imacomp 20:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser complete
You made a request for a Checkuser to be run, which has now been completed. See Requests for CheckUser for the results. the wub "?!"  22:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Freemason conspiracy theories
FYI: A new user (he's allready given us his IP) on this page inserting Lightbringer'esqe material (but probably not Lightbringer in person). Ought to be keept an eye on, and I sadly do not have time to be on Wikipedia much these days. I'm putting this on the talkpage for several of the more active editors on Freemasonry realated articles. WegianWarrior 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

User page
Hey, I noticed you edited my userpage a few days back. Would you mind never ever doing that again? Thanks, Karwynn

Karwynn 15:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine. The next time you violate WP:NPA on your user page, I'll get somebody else to do it. MSJapan 21:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Next tme implies a first time, and I never personally attacked anyone on my user page, so it won't be a problem. Maybe next time you should look at the full context of whatever statement you mistook for a personal attack  (I still don't know which one it was :-, it might alleviate another mischaracterization.  And don't accuse me of making personal attacks unless you're willing to do something about it if I "continue" them.  Karwynn 14:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the portion i would have consider a personal attack:


 * "Die." Hilarious quote from PennyGWoods, unfairly permabanned for threatening the life of Woohookitty. Read the discussion, and if you think it's unfair, drop by essjay's discussion and tell him so. Unite against admin abuse, hyperbole exaggeraton and straw man bannings!


 * Just my two cents. The comments about abuse, exagerration, and straw men probably come close.--Vidkun 16:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Duncan's
I would agree that Duncan's is not really an exposé ... in that it was not published to "expose" the rituals of Freemasonry. But it is inaccurate. Thus my comment that the OTO croud can not use it to say "see... the rituals ARE similar."

Would you mind taking a look over at fan fiction?
Hello! I found you through WikiProject Fact and Reference Check.

If you feel up to it and have the time, I was wondering if you could examine certain (if not all, if you feel so inclined) sections of the fan fiction article. A number of things I feel are true, but have no references (though I'm pretty sure the shoujo-ai, shounen-ai, yaoi, yuri, and lemon stuff could be verified easily, since I remember reading every one of them in a special article in Animerica at one point not too awfully long ago). Many of these things relate to Japan, either linguistically (since a lot of terms/usages have come out of the anime and manga fan communities online) or culturally (doujinshi, for instance), so I thought that maybe you might be interested in helping out. :)

Please let me know either way! Runa27 23:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Overton Lodge
As unofficial neutral third party called in to "give it a look"... I have reached my decision. (see Talk:Overton Lodge) Feel free to appeal to someone else if you disagree. Blueboar 23:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

O.T.O debate
I have become involved in a debate on the Ordo Templi Orientis page and could use some of your logic and input. The article states that OTO (which was founded by a bunch of irregular masons, who then took their irregularity even further) uses rituals and is organized in a way that is "similar to Freemasonry". I do not have a problem with this... they do (for a given value of "similar"). However, they say it so many times that I am concerned an uninformed reader might say "if OTO is so similar, they must be Masonic". I have therefore added a small foot note, quoting UGLE saying "There are numerous fraternal orders and Friendly Societies whose rituals, regalia and organisation are similar in some respects to Freemasonry's. They have no formal or informal connections with Freemasonry" (from the UGLE web site).

One user (Zos) is twisting WP:RS (specificly WP:RS) to say that I can not add this disclaimer (my word). His argument is that since the article is about OTO, and not Freemasonry, we can not add ANY citation from UGLE... no matter what is being cited. He then keeps telling me to cite a book, even after I have pointed out that the UGLE website is a primary source for what UGLE says, and a book would be a secondary source.

We have already had one admin pop in... he agrees that the citation can be used. But because the admin wondered WHY it should be used, Zos is claiming that the admin agrees with his POV on everything. I have put in a request for Essjay to pop over and mediate... but he seems to not be around. Even if you do not want to get involved directly, a little advice would be appreciated. Blueboar 01:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Lightbringer back?
Thunderbird15's latest edit summary, and his insistance on the talkpage that FMW is a valid source, makes me start to wonder if he's our 'old friend' coming back. Sadly, I getting busy with Real Life right now, but perhaps you might keep an eye on this and ask for a RFCU if you think it's needed? Thanks, WegianWarrior 11:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Masonic exhibition in Bremen
If you are interested in some scans of a German newspaper about the Focke-Museum with its special exhibition about Freemasonry, write me an e-mail and I'll send you them back as PDF. --SGOvD webmaster (talk) 12:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Philadelphian Masons
Undobtedly there was a tiff recorded in the Freemasons' Magazine and Masonic Mirror, (London) August 27 1859 pp 103 -34 and p150-1 as regards the Philadelphians. Also y.ou might be interested in Professor Jean Bossu's "Une loge de proscrits à Londres sous le Second Empire at apres la Commune" in the Jan-Oct issue if L'idée libre. Also Boris Nicolaevsky has summarised a lot of this in Secret Societies and the First International. Clearly these people need to be in the list. Thanks for your interest.Harrypotter 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi again. Thankfully we are not bound by the prejudices of UGLE on wikipedia, otherwise, well wikipedia would be reduced to just a mouth piece for their views. If you look above, I have referred to Boris Nicolaevsky little text, which cites Bossu and the Freemasons' Magazine and Masonic Mirror. The full reference is at the botton of teh article along with a website which has an e-mail address which you can contact. When i get a chance I mean to hop along to the library they have at UGLE and see if they have FMMM dating back to those days, and if I am able to make a copy would be happy to send you one. I could also send you a copy of Nicolaevsky's text, published as The Revolution is Not a Masonic Affair which has a discussion about the origins of freemasonry which may well interest you even if you do not see eye to eye with it. If you feel these would be of interest to you please leave your e-mail address on my talk page and I will contact you as regards getting a hard copy to you.Harrypotter 20:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Blanchard
We need to add proper citation info for the Blanchard citation (Scotch Rite) on the Catholicism and Freemasonry article. I gather that you have a copy of the book?... could you add publisher, date, page ref. etc.? JASpencer also wants a quotation, but I don't feel that is a must. As long as we give enough information for an average editor to cite check at a library, it satisfies WP:V and WP:RS Blueboar 20:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)