User talk:Mackan79


 * User_talk:Mackan79/Archive_1
 * User_talk:Mackan79/Archive_2

Mistaken page
Been deleted, no problem. speedy criterion G7 covers that one, a mistakenly created page that the author requests deletion of. You can place db-author on those too, or of course I'm happy to help. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

69.67.230.109
But isn't it? Abortion is murder, no matter what Wikipedia says. --69.67.230.109 03:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

List
Mackan,

I was hoping that the list could be collaborative, and created by multiple parties. There are other posters who know more about certain controversies than myself, and vice versa. CJCurrie 22:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Your note
Hi Mackan, I understand your points. I do think that the current 'protected' template, as I noted in the Talk page, clearly tells the readers that there is a dispute among editors, that the version is locked, and that the locking does not necessarily endorse the locked version. I find that a very reasonable top-level description of the status quo. Any interested reader can then go to the Talk page with one click and read further details there. Although I strongly believe that we must unlock the entry ASAP, we don't want to descend immediately into renewed edit wars, which will just get us back to where we are now, so it seems logical to insist on mediation. I hope you all can move that process along ASAP. Crum375 15:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Israeli apartheid
What do you think of incorporating the newest allegations and info, the 7 new items on the Discussion page?Kritt 06:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about the article. I will read it as soon as I can --Aminz 01:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't your vote more accurately be described as rename or move?--Urthogie 21:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I feel like dialogue gets nowhere with you right now. You don't even highlight a single correct argument that I make.  If you want to report me for 3RR, go ahead-- you'll just be keeping a falsehood on the page 24 hours.  If you want to actually see that G-Dett objectively misread Adam and Moodley, I would highly advise that.--Urthogie 17:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've suggested a compromise on the talk page. Please remove the report?--Urthogie 19:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The compromise has nothing to do with the 3rr, which as you said is relatively inconsequential to me. It has to do with my observation on reflection that Adam and Moodley are dealing with position on Israel as an apartheid state, not all the types of accusation.--Urthogie 20:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mackan
With so many different "allegations"-related deletion votes going on, it occurred to me that you might have missed this one: Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (third nomination).

Nice work on NAS. All best, --G-Dett 14:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Stephen Breyer
The article Stephen Breyer you nominated as a good article has passed, see Talk:Stephen Breyer for eventual comments about the article. Good luck in future nominations. I have left some comments as to how to further improve the article on Talk:Stephen Breyer. Please feel free to message me if you have any queries. LordHarris 01:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, David Mestel(Talk) 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

ok but
can we clarify what place the allegations would find in this article?--Urthogie 22:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * my fear is that i'll just end up creating another frankstein monster. what if that thing explodes into israel criticism and israeli apartheid article is kept??  it seems like a pure rename is best because it would attract a lot more neutral and mainstream editors.  it's hard to go on faith alone because editors like Kritt aren't so open minded as yourself in this regard.--Urthogie 22:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why does it need to be done in your user space? The way I see it this is a list made by editors to be as long as possible to make Israel look as bad as possible.  Why don't you support me on the actual talk page in pointing out that assistant professors should be removed immediately from the article, as their views are not significant enough?--Urthogie 15:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I think that the sources that list people that aren't especially notable should be turned into source lists, like a list of israeli academics, or a list of MP's, etc. Because these people are notable when taken as a group. This sound like a good way to start the talk page version?--Urthogie 15:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Mackan79
Please take a quick glance at the edit history pages for Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid and Allegations of Brazilian apartheid and review the history of Hafrada (Separation) and it's older version Hafrada. Something to consider in light of the discussions surrounding Allegations of Israeli apartheid. I have tried very hard to WP:AGF, but IMO there are a couple of editors who have gone too far. Tiamut 15:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

User about to banned
I wonder if you might take a look at this Mackan. Whatever one may think of this user's edits, it seems to me he's being railroaded here.--G-Dett 18:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

red link = good
I'd like to hear the case for why these red links shouldn't be there. Generally, red links are supposed to be on templates if applicable.--Urthogie 16:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

you might want to argue your other points --Urthogie 16:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, so are you saying if I demonstrate without a doubt that those allegations are article-worthy, we can keep them as red links until I or someone else writes them? If so, let's start with the US.  Entire books have been written on the US "economic apartheid" of the poor and specifically blacks, an allegation which is accepted as basic fact by many.  Unlike "Israeli apartheid", it actually relates to race, and blacks are actually part of the country, rather than Palestinians in the West Bank who aren't actually Israelis.  (of course, Guantanmo is also compared to apartheid frequently as well, if anything an example of how irrationally the term is thrown around)  Agree?--Urthogie 17:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So, please specify what the problem is then with adding a red link for US allegations of apartheid?--Urthogie 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Your article is on a contentious and disputed issue.' You've cut right to the heart of the matter.  There is no actual policy objection to the red links, only "its ugly" (subjective) and "its contentious."  Applying occam's razor here would lead me to believe the non-policy objections result only from opinions about allegations.--Urthogie 18:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Palestine
--Ian Pitchford 19:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Harris
First off, you seem to forget that we are advised to be bold. Second, if you object to certain changes, feel free to bring them up on the talk page where a discussion has already been taking place before I made any edits. Thanks VanTucky 17:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Separation of Church and State - Theocracy
Hi Mackan -- the sentence which you say is at issue would seem to rule out the Vatican as well as Israel: "The opposite end of the spectrum from separation is a theocracy, in which the state is founded upon the institution of religion, and the rule of law is based on the dictates of a religious court." The law in the Vatican state with regard to civil secular matters parallels that of Italy. Under the Lateran treaty, crimes are not handled by the "dictates of a religious court" but are prosecuted by Italy in Italian secular courts. Both states are "founded upon the institution of religion" and have citizenship laws which give unique privilege to religious adherents. I'll agree that Israel should be deleted on this basis if the Vatican City is deleted on the same basis. Neither is a traditional theocracy, but both have a unique and essential tie to a religion. Mamalujo 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Priestley
Thank you for your efforts to tighten up the prose on Joseph Priestley; they are, by and large, effective. I hesitate to say this, but I wonder if it is the best use of your wikipedia time to copy edit this article at this time. Much is going to have to be removed from this article and whole sections are going to be reworded since it is too long, so I am not sure that this is the moment to go over the language with a fine-toothed comb, looking for superfluous words or slightly awkward phrasings. You are welcome to do so - I just wanted to make you aware of the ongoing editing and the possibility that whole sections you have carefully corrected may be deleted or radically revised in the near future. Awadewit | talk  05:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to help me out with The Age of Reason, I would greatly appreciate it as there are currently no other editors working on the page. I have thrown all of the information up that I think I am going to want in the article, but some of it needs to be slightly rearranged and the sentences need to be refined. I am trying to prepare it for a peer review and FAC. Just a thought. Awadewit | talk  09:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Islam: What the West Needs to Know
Could you please review a controversy currently brewing at this page? CJCurrie 02:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

the AFD
its customary to comment on users who create accounts for the sole purpose of adding to an AFD.--Urthogie 15:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * sure thing. thanks, --Urthogie 15:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like my comment there.--Urthogie 15:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, a huge chunk of the discussion just disappeared after your last edit. I don't know how to revert it and still preserve all the posts... Can you unscrew this, please? Thx ;-) --Targeman 15:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, my bad, didn't notice :-) --Targeman 15:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mackan, can you do it? I'm not absolutely sure what you're referring to, and I'm running out the door... whereever you think it should go is fine with me.--G-Dett 18:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please comment
This is a message for all regulars at the “apartheid” AfD series. I believe there may have been a breakthrough. Please share your thoughts here. Thanks. --Targeman 03:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Kudos...
... for your valiant attempt to cleanup the Cult article that has suffered from bias, lack of sources and other maladies for long enough. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Template for Discrimination Project
Greetings about the Template for Discrimination Project. I'm leaving a note for you and other recent editors so the back and forth editing of the Discrimination template will cease and those interested can dialog about the need to include or not include an article. Please use Template talk:Discrimination and start a new section "Include _____ ?" so that others can also help keep the discussion constructive. thank you. Benjiboi 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops !
I'm truly sorry about this one : ! I mixed up the links, editing in the same time the oldids on my userpage to keep track of the last diff of each article i already read. Sorry again. NicDumZ ~  14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Chinese apartheid AfD
Following your recent participation in Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid, you may be interested to know that a related article, Allegations of Chinese apartheid, is currently being discussed on AfD. Comments can be left at Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 15:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,Newyorkbrad 18:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid template
As you've edited the tempate itself I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the TFD discussion at Templates_for_deletion? Lothar of the Hill People 21:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Your email
Hey, sorry I did not respond earlier. Been very busy in RL, and wrapped up in the AoIa Rfar thing. I'd like to continue this discussion with you, time permitting, but would prefer to do it on-wiki, unless you have thoughts that are really so private you don't want them shared, which I guess I can understand. For my part, I think I can speak about this issue perhaps more generally, as my earlier approach seems to have annoyed you (though I assure you that was not at all what I intended). IronDuke 04:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm officially baffled now. First, you question why it is I want to continue the discussion; in fact, I was responding to your email, where you indicate just such a desire. If you don't want to continue it, that's A-OK with me. If you feel matters are too sensitive to be discussed on-wiki, maybe you can say more about that. I don't see why you are insulted by the notion that you might have private thoughts not suitable for WP; I think most editors here do have such thoughts/opinions. And since you asked to have this discussion off-wiki, I can't see how I could reach any other conclusion than there are issues you want to keep private. Just really baffled why this insults you.
 * When I said I thought you were annoyed, it was because you removed my comments. I interpreted that as annoyance--perhaps I was wrong. Your email to me was fine, although I would argued you showed some annoyance there, too, not that there is a thing in the world wrong with that. If you are annoyed with me, I'd much rather you express it (in a nice way) than pretend you aren't.
 * I'm just at a bit of a loss as to why you feel antagonized; it's starting to feel like a deliberate misreading of what I'm trying to do here. I don't "need" to continue this discussion, but I'm happy to if you feel there are unresolved issues. IronDuke  18:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid
Please see Talk:Allegations_of_apartheid. Lothar of the Hill People 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Discrimination against atheists
Hi I see you reverted the last edit on Discrimination against atheists where you removed the word "other". You cited the word "other" being in violation of NPOV policies and I just wanted to know your rationale for that. The article originally had the word "other" in it, which was subsequently removed, and I changed that back. Thank you. Obac88667 22:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Breyer
I am conducting reviews of Law articles listed as Good as a part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. A week ago I put Stephen Breyer article on hold, but have not received any answer. I don't realy want to delist this article, so could you address those issues? (see Talk:Stephen Breyer) Ruslik 10:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Your evidence
Regarding your evidence, I blocked WB because he posted to Gary Weiss that Weiss was editing as MM on Wikipedia, plus some other potentially defamatory material that was only partly sourced. The edit was deleted, which is why you can't find it. I blocked the account, told him I would unblock if he would assure me he wouldn't post it again, to which he responded by posting it again. Therefore, the block stood. The block had nothing to do with claims about sockpuppets or vandalism. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 20:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean by him having promised not to post again. He made an edit that was a serious violation of BLP and harassment. He was blocked for it. You can't see that edit because it was admin-deleted. He was then told on his talk page that he would be unblocked if he agreed not to post it again. He responded by re-posting part of it. You can't see that edit either because it's also been admin-deleted. Because he did that, the block remained. Had he not done that, and had he given some kind of assurance (such as "I'm sorry, I'm new, I didn't realize"), he'd have been unblocked. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 20:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You wrote: "As I said, for him to repeat the allegation at that point, when you also asked for an explanation of his edits, does not seem to me surprising, or evidence of bad faith."
 * I must not be making myself clear. He posted "A is B" (among other things). It was deleted as a violation of two policies, and he was blocked. He was told "You must not post A is B. If you agree not to do that, you will be unblocked." His response was "A is B." If that's not acting in bad faith, I don't know what is. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 21:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

your note
The linked material is an attack on a living person, GW, unsupported by reliable sources. In addition, the linked material includes an outing attempt of a Wikipedian. Both violate BLP and must be removed by anyone, per: Crum375 (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not taking any sides, and don't think that two wrongs make a right. If you see any unsourced derogatory BLP material, you may remove it. And the whole point of WP:BLP, which I quoted above is that we don't wait for someone else to do it &mdash; each WP editor is empowered to remove the improper BLP material. Crum375 (talk) 18:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not remove "links to a BLP violation", since as you correctly note our BLP rules don't apply outside WP. I removed material that is BLP violation in itself, and consists of a link to unsourced derogatory information about a living person. Crum375 (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Response
Mackan79 - I responded to you on my page. Should I also here? If so, my answer was, your point is taken and respected. I am just learning my way around here and will in the future check on such matters before posting. Best, PatrickPatrickByrne (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Deleted edits
No, there is not. It's almost certainly been oversighted. —Random832 04:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify, the article has no deleted edits visible to administrators. —Random832 04:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That link has a timestamp of 22:28, as can be seen in the url itself: http:// en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete &target=User_talk:WordBomb&timestamp=20060707222852&diff=prev. —Random832 22:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Neve Gordon
Following apparently libellous attacks on this article, you removed all reference to Neve Gordon's libel action against Steven Plaut. This removes the main part of the article. I have restored my edit from this morning, which removed the libels and distortions inserted by apparent sockpuppets of User:Truthprofessor, and relied on an objective NPOV report in The Chronicle of Higher Education, rtaher than on the smears and lies of FrontPage Magazine. I hope you will agree that this is better than leaving the article almost empty, and without reference to this important issue. It is likely that Truthprofessor will try again to repeat his libels of Gordon in this article, so best keep a watch on it! Thanks RolandR (talk) 17:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree with you about the Dershowitz comment; but it might be difficult to justify removing it altogether. I removed a long quote, allegedly by Plaut, which wasn't in the source cited. I have no doubt that this is his view, but it can't possibly be inserted without a source. And, since the appeals court has confirmed his conviction for libel against Gordon, it would be extremely foolish of us to include this even if sourced correctly.
 * Look at the background to this, including Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Zuminous, Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Zuminous, and Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Truthprofessor. These are clearly the same person as User:Jenkinsimon and User:Borisyy, and I believe them to be Plaut himself. Jenkinsimon's edits to Talk:Steven Plaut, in which he posted libellous comments about a third party in his attack, resemble also the MO of the notorious Runtshit sockpuppeteer. We have to keep an eye on all of this. RolandR (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And, for further evidence, compare this edit by Jenkinsimon to your talk page just now, with this one, by a Runtshit sockpuppet to User talk:ST47 in December 2006. RolandR (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure an RFCU would help, as this vandal seems to be an expert at using proxy and anonymising services, which leave no trace. RolandR (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Block
George, the lack of thought here is somewhat striking. I can only assume you think I was referencing an email that WordBomb sent you in my earlier comment. If so, please look for an email I sent you on December 7, 2007 which began:
 * I haven't seen you so much on Wiki, but generally appreciate your thoughts on the mailing list, so you may be a good person to ask about this, if you don't mind. What I'm wondering: I've followed the whole Bagley situation somewhat closely, and have seen most of the allegations against him.  In terms of "dangerous stalking and harassment," however, I'm frankly not sure what you refer to.

If the issue is something else, please let me know. Mackan79 (talk) 05:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * To clarify, I sent this to george(dot)herbert(AT)gmail(dot)com, which I presumably took from the mailing list. I can produce the rest if necessary.  I have seen WordBomb say as well that he asked you the same thing, which is why I imagine it is what you are considering. Mackan79 (talk) 06:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The exact tone of your comment here matches several emails I recieved from Judd and goes far beyond what you mentioned on Dec 7, though I can confirm receiving the email.
 * If you want to post the email here, feel free. I will post it to ANI if you give me permission and let others review.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Mackan, keep the faith. This will only be temporarily. GWH, this is a horrible block, considering your DUCKness elsewhere. You had BETTER undo this block, and quickly, with an apology. SirFozzie (talk) 06:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a little amusing; I reread my comment and heard the tone of another user that I've sometimes been in conflict with. In any case, I'd hope you'd know it's not the first time I've questioned your and other editors' comments about Bagley.
 * If you've received the email, then I'm not sure there's a need to reproduce it.
 * For the record, the two edits you site on AN/I are obviously mine. They refer to the section immediately above that I had created to highlight a section in evidence that I added.  The section is titled "Editing content."
 * In any case, you should realize based on the email that this is a mistake. Please reconsider. Mackan79 (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi GWB, please tell me you're not blocking on "tone" --and there is in fact an email from Mackan79? R. Baley (talk) 06:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree with this block. You need better evidence, George. Bstone (talk) 06:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Again - do I have your permission to post the email? Your comment I diff'ed from earlier tonight matches Bagley emails to me, and not your email to me from December. I am happy to put the email in evidence on ANI, or you can here and I'll confirm if it's what I received. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The relevant portion of my email follows:
 * That said, I'm wondering if you can clue me in to what kind of things you're talking about here. Do you refer to public information or private?  I'll say honestly my suspicion is that people have said this so much others repeat it without specific evidence, and moreover that Wikipedia could really be doing a much better job of acting as mediator in this dispute than fighting fire with fire (as huge a step from the current situation as that would be).  But considering it's always possible there's information I lack, you might be a good person to ask.

I didn't receive a response. Since then I've criticized GWH's comments on Bagley in what I consider strong terms at least twice on the evidence page. Please do not post my email. Mackan79 (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My criticism of GWH's comments can be seen in the section here. A couple sections above you'll see a similar discussion I had with JzG. With all due respect, this discussion should be completed. Mackan79 (talk) 06:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can confirm that section appears to be the fourth paragraph of an email I received on Dec 7.
 * I didn't respond in email, I believe I have addressed the issue on-wiki.
 * I still would like your permission to post the rest of the email, with the header / address info stripped. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Why on earth would we need to post my email? The basis for this is an obvious mistake, that you didn't think I sent you an email.  Now you're wanting to post the email that I sent you.  If you'd like to establish that my email was polite, that is absolutely true.  Per above, I have since then become more frustrated with your lack of response and continued comments.  Please acknowledge your mistake so that we can end this.  I'd be happy to address any concerns you have under more appropriate circumstances. Mackan79 (talk) 06:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The basis for the block was that you posted on AN a comment that rather closely matches comments Bagley has made to me in email. Even with your earlier email, your comment still closely matches Bagley's emails, and doesn't match your email on the whole.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there information that you believe is relevant in the rest of the email, George? daveh4h 06:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, in context with Bagley emails, and the on-wiki comment, the comment resembled the Bagley emails and not the earlier email. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked per Viridae Talk  06:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Viridae. To clarify, I'm absolutely not Bagley, and it is absurd. The history of my involvement in this dispute is offered on the evidence page, including specifically why I am concerned about some of the rhetoric that has been leveled at Bagley. This is a mistake based on an email that GWH apparently forgot that I sent him, or did not see. That's fine; the fact that he would block me without comment is less so, but perhaps can be discussed politely, hopefully beginning with GWH recognizing an obvious mistake. Mackan79 (talk) 06:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Support
I hope you're not as angry as I was when I was first indef. blocked out of the blue - but regardless, I wanted to offer a note of support, and I hope it's sorted out very quickly. You should never have been blocked. Privatemusings (talk) 06:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Same here, Mackan. Don't let this foolish move by someone sour you on this place. SirFozzie (talk) 06:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Also voice my support. Sorry you had to go through the hassle. The block was without any merit. Bstone (talk) 06:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations, you aren't a cockpuppet
Hope you at least get a laugh out of this permanent typo on your record. :) Lawrence  §  t / e  06:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry :( Explanation: User_talk:Viridae Viridae Talk 06:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There used to be a cockpuppet article. damn deletionists...Now I'll wonder my way through life, never knowing what a cockpuppet is. >:(  daveh4h 06:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I just found out, if anyone is curious:  So you're definitely not a cockpuppet.  Anyways, enough sillyness.  Glad to see you unblocked, Mackan.  daveh4h 07:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all very much for the comments. I'm hoping to hear further about whatever people are looking at. I find it rather surprising that someone would block based on something that could so easily be checked and verified (whether or not I sent an email), but perhaps my thoughts aren't impartial. I'm hoping I'll hear further if there is anything more happening on this. Mackan79 (talk) 07:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ridiculous block, I asked George a few questions on his talk page, as have others. He needs to explain himself, though I think the basic explanation is that he screwed up big time (but not in a peaceful fashion, unfortunately).--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As you are probably aware, Alison has posted a confirmation that you are not Judd Bagley on George's talk page. I have posted a confirmation on AN/I, as I believe that you are entitled to have a formal notation recorded now, without waiting any longer for George to see Alison's post.  Like Bigtimepeace, I believe that George has made a huge mistake - and one that calls his judgment into serious question; hopefully no further damage will befall you as the fall out from the ArbCom case and from George's actions continue.  Amazing that all this has happened and the case still hasn't closed!  I'd love to know what email discussion is occurring on the ArbCom list at the moment.  :)  Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Given the absoloute proof provided that you are not a sockpuppet, I did a bit of IAR and noted it in your block log with a one second block. Not a practice I usually encourage, but allegations of sockpuppetry are quite a stain and you are quite clearly innocent of them. Hope you feel better in the morning, the community is clearly on your side. Viridae Talk 10:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The one-second block is, incidentally, the only block this user has had to serve out for its entire term, without it being ended early! :-)  *Dan T.* (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'd been waiting for someone to notice that :) I imagine they were more tired of talking about it than anything else, but I'll take the credit...  Mackan79 (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for the further comments from everyone. I won't have time to look at this again until a bit later in the day. I am interested, if slightly dubious, in any coming explanation for having blocked me as a sock of a very controversial user, apparently after a negative checkuser result, as a heavily invovled editor, and without thinking to raise the issue first. I won't catalogue the various other problems here to see if maybe GWH recognizes them himself, although I will suggest it might have helped to have looked and seen that I started editing before WordBomb registered (and as any CU should be able to verify even then from a static IP very far from Utah). So be it, I'll have to see what GWH says. Mackan79 (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Mackan79
I've been off Wikipedia since yesterday and only now became aware of GWH's inane block. If I'd been on when it happened I'd have insisted I be blocked as well. You may be too peeved at the moment to be thinking about silver linings, but...this total breakdown of common sense may bring needed attention to unaddressed issues in the Weiss-Bagley affair, including the problems of systemic bias and Wordbomb hysteria among incompetent admins.--G-Dett (talk) 16:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You showed great coolness under fire. Welcome back. I hope you get every explanation you're looking for. Noroton (talk) 19:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You may be interested in my comment to Jay*Jay on my talk. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Welcome back Mackan79, if there is a silver lining, it is that the double standard has been thrust into the face of every observer to this whole thing. R. Baley (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies
I've gotten assurances from arbcom members and checkusers that they have investigated this and are fully unambiguously certain that you aren't Bagley. They can't show me the detailed evidence, as I am not a checkuser, but they have described the type and extent of checks, and based on those descriptions I believe their conclusions.

I want to apologize to you for having misinterpreted the situation last night. I don't know for sure the degree to which it was your presumably inadvertently and unawarely using some language Bagley did elsewhere, or my oversensitivity in this case. But I believe I was in error, and I owe you an apology for the block and fuss. I'm sorry, I goofed. I would note this as a mistake and record the apology in your block log if I could do so conveniently.

As I stated last night, I really don't want to affect anyone's participation in the MM debates and didn't intend that effect from the block. Had I not concluded mistakenly that you were Judd, I would have never bothered you about any of your actions or discussion. To the extent that this all interfered in that legitimate debate, I apologize again.

I was off in meetings all morning and I'm just finished up with email - I have no idea what else has been discussed where regarding this, in terms of catching up from last night, but I felt that it was most appropriate to come directly here and apologize to you first, and follow up elsewhere later. I will note my mistake and an apology on my talk page and on ANI as well.

I would like to additionally thank you for remaining civil and calm through the stress that my mistake dropped on you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I think it was actually mostly that you didn't realize I had emailed you when in fact I had (I saw Random832 said this somewhere else, so please don't think I'm them ;) ).  That may have been lost in trying to straighten it out.  All the same, if I may say, I would seriously hope you reconsider blocking someone based on a personal hunch, particuarly someone you're in disagreement with, someone's who's been editing close to two years, and without even asking ("what email?").  That seems all to have been somewhat of a mad spree, which I don't fully understand.  The stranger thing was that you were then very sensitive about another "involved" editor unblocking me...  I'm willing to accept this as a mistake, but I do hope you'll be more cautious in areas where you're involved.  Thanks in any case for the apology and explanation, as well as the tone, which I appreciate. Mackan79 (talk) 23:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Very gracious, Mackan. I'm not sure I would have been as accepting in you place - perhaps it is the tone of the apology that irks me ("presumably inadvertently") or the unjustified righteousness after the block was overturned or the failure to recognise that the conclusion reached was a fairly large exercise in bad faith (and that is the word GWH used - conclusion, not suspicion - and the block log notation reflects this as well) or even the contrary evidence based on your registration on-wiki.  Anyway, you have decided to accept this apology, and I wanted you to know that you have emerged from this incident with dignity intact and having impressed other editors.  Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 18:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Name fix
Hi Mackan, thanks for fixing my comment on George's talk page - obviously I did mean you and not MM. It's a pity that "Mackan" and "Mantan" are so similar. Perhaps we could deal with that by calling you "the Mack" and Mantan "the Man" since those are a bit more distinct and can both be considered complementary nicknames. :) Anyhow, thanks for the correction!--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks
I notice that you appear to be using Wikipedia to engage in baseless and rather wild attacks on SlimVirgin. Please stop. For genuine and well founded concerns about serious misconduct, please follow the dispute resolution procedure and avoid making personal attacks. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 15:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As I understand, raising the issue on someone's talk page would be an appropriate first step. I'm currently considering whether there are ways to address the situation while minimizing the level of drama involved.  To be clear, my longstanding concern has specifically been how much and the nature of the way these two accounts have worked together, and it is something that I have raised with ArbCom.  Following the recent block issued by GWH, an arbitrator had suggested that I may be able to have the blocklog expunged, but SV then arrived to say that this shouldn't happen because I had been wikistalking her for much of two years and had tried to have her "investigated" by the Committee.  As such, I have spoken again to correct this, and to ask her whether the issue that I raised with the Committee is one she would discuss.  There is no easy way to deal with any of this, and I'd like to be clear I'm notinterested in making a scene, but I think that is where it stands. Mackan79 (talk) 15:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Raising appropriate concerns is fine. Raising ridiculous and half-baked accusations is not, and when especially baseless it begins to look like an attempt at a smear. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 17:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's ridiculous that the two accounts have acted inappropriately together. It's also not something I would have raised yesterday, except that SV did herself.  I responded, and I'm trying to hold back that discussion, although in the end I do think it is another situation where various baggage has inhibited standard dispute resolution from working.  I've suggested one possible resolution below that would try to get around that problem, for what it's worth. Mackan79 (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe you'd found any inappropriate behavior by those accounts.   If they sometimes agree with one another and support one another's edits, this merely means that they are of like mind.  It is absolutely not forbidden for two Wikipedia editors to agree with one another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Tell that the the numerous people who have been blocked, banned, or marginalized for agreeing too much with the "wrong sort" of others. *Dan T.* (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you name the "numerous people" who have been blocked for that reason? Jayjg (talk) 23:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Before you go any further


I decided to put their edits in the same spreadsheet I've used previously. Going back to September 18, 2006 (SlimVirgin's last 25,000 edits, and the last 9120 or so for Crum375), they have 385 edit collisions&mdash;that is, they edited during the same minute 385 times. I've also made these graphs that suggest that Crum375 lives on more regular hours, while SlimVirgin definitely does not.

Of course, Tony would tell you that these methods are untested so mean nothing. I just thought you should keep them in mind. If you still think SlimVirgin might have access to the Crum375 account, perhaps you could look at the edits that Crum375 made in the early morning when the account usually does not. I, at least, would demand a smoking gun, because I'm not seeing it here.

See also:
 * Image:SlimVirgin Crum 4 month sample.png‎
 * Image:Crum only.png
 * Image:SlimVirgin only.png

Cool Hand Luke 16:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's true, I think. I also wouldn't want to start an investigation without myself or someone else presenting a stronger basis for concern.  As I suggested, I think it may ultimately get to this question: if Crum is a friend of SV from before the creation of Crum's account, and  yet Crum has perpetually taken sides in SV's disputes even from very early in the account, is this something that SV should disclose?  This is basically what the evidence goes to, give or take.  My perception based on specific points I've submitted to ArbCom is that this would matter a great deal, and that there is strong indication from editing that this is at least the case.  One of the obvious reasons it matters is the very great extent they edit together, revert warring against other editors on a page, but then acting hostile when other editors familiar with them arrive to comment.


 * As is clear at the same time, SV and I have a longstanding dispute which the situation also relates to, which makes it hard for me to suggest what should happen. However, I think it is possible that the issue could be mediated, for instance by making it a nonissue.  That could happen simply based on situations such as the discussion here as well as Crum's recent actions in the Mantanmoreland arbitration case which resulted in their block, without any regard to the issues I submitted to ArbCom.


 * The point would be that if an editor is in such a sensitive situation that their editing relationships can't be openly discussed, then they shouldn't edit tendentiously and controversially with another editor. If others have an opinion on that, including SV or Crum375, it may help resolve the issue. Mackan79 (talk) 17:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The evidence doesn't point very well to outright sockpuppetry in this case, but the much more vague label "meatpuppet" would seem to apply, in that the two accounts back one another up in a quite sycophantic way. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop this use of pseudo-statistical babble to justify the harassment of editors through false and disingenuous accusations of sock puppetry. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 17:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Those statistics are being used to disprove the sockpuppetry allegation, actually... stop trolling. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Tony doesn't actually read. . .just makes comments. R. Baley (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I read. Representations of statistical significance in the edit timings facilitates the abuse of statistics to attack editors in good standing. This is the case whether one purports to exonerate or incriminate a user with these untried methods. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * ...and using facts and evidence in the course of determining sockpuppetry and confirming or denying accusations of such is something up with which we must not put... it gets too much in the way of acting on gut feelings and clique loyalty! *Dan T.* (talk) 19:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not using any statistics. Just highlighting some characteristics that makes sockpuppetry unlikely. This is a DUCK test; I've listened and have heard a goose. If you have a problem with it Tony, nominate WP:SPADE for deletion. Cool Hand Luke 23:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry is not the issue here
It doesn't matter if they're two different people or not (and, for that matter, no-one, not even WordBomb, thinks they are the same person as far as I know) - but countless incidents of him showing up to support her on pages that he's never had a single edit before is a pattern of disruptive meatpuppetry (and if he were showing up on the same pages at the same times to _oppose_ her, he'd have been banned long ago for wikistalking) —Random832 23:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Going forward
I note that in the past four months you've made significant edits to the following articles:
 * Doctrine of the two kingdoms‎
 * Separation of church and state‎
 * Joseph Massad‎
 * Overstock.com‎
 * Patrick M. Byrne‎
 * Neve Gordon‎
 * John J. Byrne‎
 * Antony Flew‎

SlimVirgin doesn't seem to have any involvement in those articles. The latest attack on SlimVirgin seems to have been provoked by her decision to comment yesterday on your request for an inappropriate block to be removed from your log. In the discussion she mentioned an incident from last year in which several people had asked you to stop behavior that had the appearance of wikistalking towards her. I also note that, perhaps thinking it better to avoid picking at ancient wounds, she removed it a little over half an hour later. Her edit summary was "removing parts of my previous post that were too personal and had no bearing on this issue".

Your own comment came a few minutes after that, and you promptly removed it when you realised that she had removed her own.

This looks to me like a case of bad blood between you and SlimVirgin. I'll ask you both to continue trying to avoid one another, and I really would like to see you drop these inappropriate and poorly founded investigations into a possible connection between two editors who are both in good standing and, even you seem to admit, not socks of one another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Response
I can appreciate your efforts Tony, particularly on what information you may have, but I don't think this is an effective resolution. As I said, one of the problems here has been the two of them going from one article to another, revert warring, and then making accusations toward any others who arrive. This has recently been discussed on AN/I, as I take you’ve seen.

My problem is that after first experiencing the way SV has often operated in disputes with Crum’s assistance (though largely failing despite the fully panoply of efforts attempted), I ended up looking into it further, for the reasons given on SV's talk page. Upon doing so I found a number of things. One was that Crum375 had added an edit counting script to their monobook within a week of editing. Another was the fact that Crum encountered SV within three weeks, quickly editing numerous articles with SV, from some amount of knowledge. I noticed that somehow during this Crum375 had actually added a direct URL to Daniel Brandt’s hivemind page on his bio (now deleted). When Phil Sandifer removed it, Crum then had this explanation for how they found Brandt’s page and why they made the edit, before suddenly realizing the problem with such a URL. And yet, before this realization, Crum had left these two comments on SV and Flonight’s talk pages. I found that apparently Crum's first substantive edit to policy was on June 25 of 2006 on Verifiability to revert a "non-consensual edit by Francis Shonken" to a version by SV without any further explanation, after Shonken had said to SV that jumping to reverts rather than discussion on the talk page was inappropriate.

There are other things, most predominantly the sheer amount of editing they do together, across many completely unrelated topics. The point became clear that at some very early point Crum started following Slim around for the predominance of their editing and with very few exceptions. In this context, I saw that some of Crum’s early edits focused specifically on the history of science, including to the portal on that subject, one that SV had said in her first edit was one of her own primary interests.

What does it indicate? Without getting into everything, I found it to indicate two editors who are at least close friends, apparently from before the creation of Crum’s account. I found this problematic for other reasons. I don’t go further, because I don’t think it’s sufficiently indicated or could be proved (or possibly needs to be, per some of the arguments that you’ve recently made). However, considering the amount of controversy that has surrounded this situation, and if there isn’t a response, I think that probably it should be discussed, and as well that there are probably few people with more standing to raise it. In that regard, I hope the discussion can remain reasonable, and focused on legitimate issues.Mackan79 (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This quote is interesting: "That WR is a site dedicated to destroying WP is not in much doubt. But do we want to prevent people from learning about our adversaries?", from Crum defending linking to so-called "attack sites" against those who wanted to remove such links. Later, Crum would become one of the strongest supporters of the BADSITES faction that favored expunging such links and demonizing people like me who defended such linking using pretty much the same line of argument Crum used himself before he changed his mind. *Dan T.* (talk) 21:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. The oddity of this is that after adding the URL, but before that explanation, Crum had already left these two comments regarding offsite harassment.  It was also Crum's apparent quick change of mind that I noticed..  One of a number of things, of course. Mackan79 (talk) 21:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Except you did no such thing, did you, Tony? You didn't "ask SV" to avoid Mackan79 at all, not according to her User Talk page - you just decided you were going to "warn" one side of a dispute, but thought it best to paint it as an objective "I'm going to ask you both". Please refactor, or cite. Achromatic (talk) 04:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You are misinformed. It strikes me that your faulty reasoning here is similar to that of Mackan79 and to some extent of Dtobias: adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.


 * SlimVirgin has assured me that she'll keep up her side of it. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 11:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration
In view of your disappointing responses and continued unwarranted personal attacks and baseless speculation about SlimVirgin, I am taking this matter to the arbitration committee. . --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 21:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, Tony, this has to be one of the stupidest RfArbs I've ever seen. Best of luck with it,--G-Dett (talk) 21:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It will hopefully lead to some examination of the behavior of all parties, which may not work to the favor of the person who started it or the person he's trying to protect from alleged harassment. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * FYI, I am responding, while I'll avoid raising further of the substantive issues in that response. It may be that the ArbCom could mediate in private; we'll have to see. Mackan79 (talk) 22:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether they'll accept it. In my experience personal attacks don't seem to merit arbitration.  The nature of this one is unusual, however. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 22:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

For your information, I have asked FT2 to make a change in his comment. Risker (talk) 00:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

RfC
I've started drafting an RfC that you might be interested in here. Please feel free if you'd like to participate in adding anything to it that you feel might be relevant. Cla68 (talk) 02:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Your question regarding e-mails
In response to your question regarding e-mails from IPFrehley to a arbitrator, I have no record of receiving such an e-mail from IPFrehley, nor do I have any recollection of him sending me that e-mail. I've been using that Wikipedia e-mail account since 2005, and there's no need to delete e-mails in G-mail (I've never been anywhere near my limit), so if I had received it, I should have been able to find it. Jayjg (talk) 02:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know exactly what sequence of events led to what actions, but if anyone does it's SlimVirgin, and I would trust SlimVirgin's statement's in these matters. And, as I said above, I have no record of receiving such an e-mail from IPFrehley, nor do I have any recollection of him sending me that e-mail. Jayjg (talk) 03:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Your note
Hi Mackan, I have always strongly supported WP's core policies and still do. They are far from perfect, but have produced a top-10 website, so they are obviously not that bad either. The case you mention where I disagreed with many editors had to do with BLP protection, which IMO trumps a local and temporary consensus. Crum375 (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not see my action in the BLP issue you mention as an "edit war" &mdash; I was acting as an admin enforcing our BLP protection rules. Regarding my reversion of your edit, I used a generic "was reverted" because I was not sure at the time if other people had reverted you also, and didn't consider it important enough to check. I apologize if you found the passive voice offensive, that was not my intent. Crum375 (talk) 21:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My role is to follow the rules as I understand them, to the best of my ability, which I did. I also did participate in the discussion, and fully explained my actions. Crum375 (talk) 22:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the warning. I didn't realize that WR was controversial. See my further comments at the noticeboard. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 03:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Rashid Khalidi
Please stop making arbitrary edits on the Rashid Khalidi page. There is an ongoing discussion that you appear to be ignoring possibly because yours is not the majority opinion. The source, the Los Angeles Times, is a hightly reputable one. You do not seem to have a reason for your edits beyond your unsourced challenge of the intentions of the Times reporter.Thomas Babbington (talk) 16:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)Thomas Babbington

NCdave
Thanks for defending him. Some of the users involved in the discussion are quite the silencers and don't like anyone who causes trouble by dissenting. Thanks for your honest unbiased opinion. I think you're the only one not involved at the expelled page that is commenting on NCdave. Therefore, you are the only unbiased opinion, and your opinion is that he is innocent. Thank! Saksjn (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please consider taking the AGF Challenge
I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.--Filll (talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Can I get your help?
Most people as I can tell, take my talking-point in the Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed user-discussion page as some kind of nonsense about order in a wikipedia article. I'm not asking to delete anything! I'm saying everything has its place and category, and we need to bring the article up to speed on that. Paladin Hammer (talk) 00:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do not delete content or templates from pages on Wikipedia without explaining the valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Nightscream (talk) 00:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, Mackan. Sorry you took umbrage with my message, but your being here for two years, in and of itself, does not make template messages on your Talk Page inappropriate. Blanking discussions from a Talk Page is inappropriate, and is not a legitimate part of "cleanup". As for diff's, they are certainly advisable, but not absolutely necessary for every template message, and I don't use them in every single one. Nightscream (talk) 03:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the History, I see that the edit in question was by Shoemaker's Holiday, who merely archived the discussion by moving that section to an archive (though I don't think he should've done so until after it died down). I apologize for the mixup. Nightscream (talk) 03:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks. Amoruso (talk) 02:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Expelled
I really don't follow most of what you said on my talk page. But regarding
 * Anyway, it's the fact that this is kind of an original thought (not totally original, I know) that made me think it should be attributed, even if only for standard academic reasons, don't you think?

The statement is attributed - there's a supporting reference.

When you change a simple factual statement into "NCSE says X", you completely change the meaning of the statement. It presents a simple fact as an opinion. That is highly misleading. Guettarda (talk) 03:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm simply saying that when it's a creative type of thought, you generally give the person's name in the text rather than simply citing it
 * And that related to this discussion in what way? We're talking about a simple statement of fact.  Guettarda (talk) 04:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like you to respond to my reasoning regarding the edits being disputed here. Can you participate? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 03:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been warned
Raul warned me for "disruptive editing." Could you help defend me on this one? See my talk page. Thanks! Saksjn (talk) 19:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

re:Comment
Well, it was a reply to filll, but applies to those who disagree with it being called "Big Science" or more appropriately the scientific establishment. Yeah, I read your comment over, and yes I'd say we're in agreement.  RC-0722 247.5/ 1  03:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep up the open-mindedness ...
I'm taking a break now, at least from ID-related stuff for at least a week or so. I simply fear if I continue on the Expelled page I might lose my temper and I don't think that would help anyone. I have managed to remain calm and happy for a long time now, but I need to refill my mana. Take care, Merzul (talk) 01:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Today we have much more polite replies on the talk page. While yesterday I was annoyed at the arrogant tone in some post, today it is NCdave's own interpretations of Darwin that I find annoying. It seems I can never be pleased :), so I'm now finally leaving for a Wikibreak. Best wishes, Merzul (talk) 12:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

So much for my Wikibreak, but I like working with you, we reach consensus quite easily. ;) But I am amazed at the level of stubbornness on that article. That someone actually reverted you to a grammatically messed up version ... WTF?  Anyway, I think I'm signing off for tonight. We'll see what lectures about policy they have for me tomorrow. Merzul (talk) 22:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV
An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, John Vandenberg (chat) 11:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG RFAR merged with Cla68-FM-SV case
Per the arb vote here the RFAR on User:JzG is now merged with this case and he is a named party. Also see my case disposition notes there. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 21:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Tom Foreman
Just a friendly note on Tom Foreman. I replaced the tag you removed with the comment "cnn bio should be fine". Since he works for CNN, it's not an independent source. I do agree with removing the tag (and I have no idea why I didn't remove it when I de-prodded the article). -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  22:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid deletion notification
Some time ago, you participated in a deletion discussion concerning Allegations of American apartheid. I thought you might like to know that the parent article, Allegations of apartheid, was recently nominated for deletion. Given that many of the issues that have been raised are essentially the same as those on the article on which you commented earlier, you may have a view on whether Allegations of apartheid should be kept or deleted. If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please see Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). -- ChrisO (talk) 18:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration request opened.
Requests_for_arbitration. Thatcher 14:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/SlimVirgin-Lar
A request for arbitration which you commented on has been opened, and is located here. Any evidence you wish to provide should be emailed directly to any sitting Arbitrator for circulation among the rest of the committee. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  14:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

G-Dett
Sorry, I was away. I've replied on her talk page. Khoikhoi 21:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Remaining problems...
Hi, and thanks for clearing up some of the issues, but the last paragraph of the lead to the NSS article is very badly sourced. It is one thing for these statements to be true and valid, but when a paragraph ends with a citation, it is expected that the paragraph is based on those sources, not on what is written all over the place. You can respond here, or on the article talk page. Thanks, Vesal (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Point about proxies
A quick clarifying point re: your comments... The diffs you cited to were in regards to open proxies, i.e. where anyone can hop on and obscure their identity, even from checkusers. Open proxies are forbidden by policy, etc., etc. In contrast, SlimVirgin's "evidence" definitely mentioned using a closed proxy where I assume access was restricted - possibly even restricted just to SlimVirgin. I won't comment on how appropriate that may be, but I wanted to make you aware of the discrepancy since your comments were stricken and you were unlikely to get a response. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Moved comment
I hope you don't mind. I think your proposal has a lot of merit, and deserves discussion unmuddled by the current edit dispute. Cool Hand Luke 04:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement request about Naked short selling
See Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. Cool Hand Luke 03:05, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Formal Mediation Request Filed
A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Requests for mediation/Rashid Khalidi, and indicate whether you agree or disagree to mediation. If you are unfamiliar with mediation on Wikipedia, please refer to Mediation. Please note there is a seven-day time limit on all parties responding to the request with their agreement or disagreement to mediation. Thanks, Avi (talk) 21:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Note
Heyo Mackan79, I've noticed a mention that you were unclear to the use of the unsigned template. What needs to be written is. You can also use copy pasting the time and date from the history log. Cheers,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  12:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There also is unsigned2 which is formatted for copying off of the history of a page. -- Avi (talk) 17:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I know I've seen it, but somehow I'm never sure where to find these things. Mackan79 (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Partisan sources
Care to comment on the addition of Joseph Massad's commentary in the Martin Kramer article? Why do I not see the same fervor from Wikidemon and others removing that paragraph. Can you explain why? -- Avi (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted
This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Happy holidays


Thanks for making 2008 an interesting and enlightening year for me; at some point, our paths have crossed and I've found your comments amusing, helpful or thought-provoking—I'll let you guess which! Wishing you and yours a joyous holiday season, and happiness, health and hopefulness in 2009. I trust you'll enjoy this little token, a favourite performance of Baby, it's Cold Outside, for your holiday amusement. Best, Risker (talk) 01:03, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Headers
Apologies, that was unintentional. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 10:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Khalidi AN/I
Please note that I have made a report to WP:AN/I regarding the edit warring / WP:BLP issue concerning Rashid Khalidi, here: WP:AN/I. This is a courtesy notice only because you seem to have been involved in some edits or discussion on the subject recently. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 22:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

RE: Length
You are going to have to trim your evidence section. Your original submission was already at 1033 words. The additional post on the talk page had the same effect as expanding your evidence section (I may be messing which event was first, but the substance of the problem is the same). If you need help trimming it, I can work with you on that.--Tznkai (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Evidence
Do you need help trimming your evidence section?--Tznkai (talk) 19:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: Cla68's post
Hi Mackan79! I already explained the reasoning for my post, and will repeat it here:
 * It's because he saw fit to single out Jayjg for this accusation, and later added similar accusations against others in different sections.

If a part of the explanation was not clear, please tell me. Also, please correct your post, as I never said that it was a personal attack, but a borderline-personal attack (two different things). Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 19:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sorry you cannot understand my reasoning if it's confined to one line. My tip to you: sometimes less is more. The reasoning seems clear to me, but in case it isn't, I'll divide it into two parts for you:
 * It's because he saw fit to signle out Jayjg for this accusation—actually this relates to my earlier post in the same place, which says: Almost every editor in this dispute has accused almost every other editor (of the opposing 'side', I guess) of POV-pushing. What that means is that either Cla68 believes that Jayjg violated WP:NPOV more than every other editor in the dispute (for which there is no shred of evidence, so it seems like a bad-faith accuastion), or that Jayjg is the only editor who violated WP:NPOV on Wikipedia (which would be a bad-faith accuastion and also borders on a personal attack). Clearly this isn't limited to the Judea/Samaria dispute either, because Cla68 also posted an accusation against Amoruso, who isn't involved in any way.
 * and later added similar accusations against others in different sections.—yes, I do think he should've put all the very similar accuasations under one section. What he did looks like it was made to highlight the notion that Jayjg=plusbad; CM=bad; NoCal100=bad; Amoruso=bad; That's just not appropriate, especially because most of it is not supported by evidence. Cla68 is actually doing the exact thing he's accusing Jayjg of—making personal accusations without having solid policy-based evidence. He's not pointing to a general bad trend, but several specific editors, one by one. Sometimes it's appropriate to single out a single editor if he's severely violating policy, but Cla68's evidence proves nothing of the sort, and moreover does not indicate how Jayjg violated policy more than any other party to the case (if indeed he violated it at all).
 * I hope that satisfied your curiosity.
 * Cheers, Ynhockey (Talk) 17:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's nothing standard about making two separate sections about one editor (both of them one-liners, so by your standard it's an ad hominem), and also posting a section about an editor who hasn't edited for about a year. I do believe it's bad faith, and I guess that's where we disagree. --Ynhockey (Talk) 09:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

i could use some help
if possible, with an Oliver Wendell Holmes jr quote on Living Constitution. It would be better if we knew where he wrote it, in a decision or whatever. Thanks., Rich Peterson75.45.98.190 (talk) 19:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Lar
I am not sure what you mean about involvement with editors - it has been a very long time since I have worked on anything with Slim Virgin, maybe years, although I wrote something in her defense when she was up before ArbCom. I cannot see ho that disqualifies me from acting responsibly now. Lar made a personal attack. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and i asked him what he meant. He said what he meant and three other people said they consider it a personal attack. I let them know I would take appropriate actionhere and I did.

Now, Lar had ample time to take back the attack. Are you disagreeing that he made a personal attack? Slrubenstein  |  Talk 10:08, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This is on Lar's user page:
 * My Admin Policy: I trust that my fellow admins' actions are done for the good of Wikipedia. So if any of my admin actions are overturned I will not consider such an action to be a "Wheel War", but rather an attempt to improve Wikipedia. If I disagree with your action, I will try to discuss it with you or with the admin community, but I absolve you in advance of any presumption of acting improperly. We should all extend the same benefit of the doubt to our fellow admins, until they repeatedly prove that they are unworthy of such a presumption.

Lar understands that I am acting in good faith - shouldn't you? By the way it gos without saying that if Lar retracts the attack the issue is settled, as far as I am concernes. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 10:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to you, for getting me to reflect on my position. I wish someone could get Lar to reflect on his. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 11:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems that there is nothing I will be able to do to persuade you, but I really am not duped by SV, nor acting on her behalf. When I wrote my defense of SV during the ArbCom thing, I was sincere and expressed what I thought. Not only was that some time ago - I can't even rememer how far back - but this is simply nother issue. If you go back to my posts to the listserve, back when I was on it (2001-2005) you will see that, whenever the issue came up, I spokeout clearly against the creation of any govening structure, central authority, or hierarchy at Wikipedia. I wrote the first draft of two essays (Advice for new administrators and The role of policies in collaborative anarchy) in which I tried to summarize my views. I believe I have expressed consistent views on Wikipedia governance since i have been here. And I believe every endorsement or rejection of any statement, as well as my own statement, at the current RfC is consistent ith these views I have held since I started editing. My point is this: the views I have expressed have nothing to do with Slim Virgin. They have nothing to do with any views I have had about SV in the past, and they have nothing to do with any history between SV and ArbCom or specific members of ArbCom. So I honestly see nothing that I have to "move past."

Ditto my relationship with Lar. As far as I know, we have no relationship. I see no impediment to collaborating with him on an articl or perhaps even a policy. I have had problems with many people at Wikipedia - there was a time (quite a while back, maybe a couple of years) where I collaborated closely with a user named Wobble - but if you had the time to look at our first interactions, we had a very antagonistic relationship and regularly reverted on another. We got past it. I think I have been blocked myself three times at Wikipedia, maybe four ...did you know SV was one of the people who blocked me? You may or may not know that Elonka and I also were in serious conflict a couple of years ago. later, she offered to help me manage the arhiving of my talk. As far as I know, she and I have a corial relationship, although we have not had any cause to ork together on the same article. My point is, we move past things all the time here.

Or are you suggesting that when Lar accused me of being the pawn of a demagogue, it is because he has not gotten over the statement I wrote defending SV when she was being investigated by ArbCom? Is that what you meant, that Lar hasn't been able to put that behind him? I honestly hadn't thought of that. I do not know what to say: I do not expect that of a bureaucrat and steward. If you really think that Lar holds that against me and that it motivated he recent personal attack against me, I beg you to try to mentor him ... if he cannot get past it, maybe he should resign as administrator etc.

But for me it is ancient history and I am not going to assume that he attacked me now for something I wrote over a year (?) ago. All I know is, he attacked me and my ability to act in good faith yesterday. And he needs to reflect on what he wrote, and its implications, and why it is unacceptable (as long as Wikipedia has NPA and AGF policies) and he should retract it. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 12:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * regardless of any disagreement, you have always been honest and courteous and I just want to thank you for that. I often do things I later regret, so I know I am fortunate and glad to know that there are people like you at Wikipedia.   Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

A bold proposal
Can you help me make this work: Areas for Reform Slrubenstein  |  Talk 14:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

COI
Thanks for making my head spin. Seriously though, that comment was a little snippy, and this particular editor has been adding mostly-unsourced info to his own biography for years. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Invitation
Wikipedia_talk:Sock_puppetry. - Dank (push to talk) 17:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Response
I'll have another response or two later, as I think through your comment, but here's an initial one: From the very beginning (see User talk:Noroton) I recognized that a CU could have a concern. My focus has always been on how I was treated once the CU had that concern. If you see my most recent comments at RFAR (and maybe you have -- I'm rushed right now and haven't checked; see my "@SlimVirgin" response), you'll see how I think the CU should have reacted. It simply didn't have to be with a block, a day of silence and an odd comment at ANI. And someone has to review Lar's communication with Versageek -- what was said, how, and when.

Policies aren't poems to be given alternate, equally valid, vague, impressionistic interpretations. They need to be clear enough for an editor to follow without an enormous amount of intepretive work, and if we're going to leave CU work for very trusted admins, they damn well can be expected to act with a minimal amount of tact. Without assuming bad faith on the part of either Lar or Versageek -- and by this point, who would blame me if I did? -- why don't you consider two possibilities: first, that one or both editors acted out of bad motives to try to influence the DRV by using CU and admin powers to make me look bad in ways far beyond any technical violations I'd committed; second, that one or both editors used the various tools, either in an acceptable way or a ham-handed way. I think those scenarios are all possible, but given that harm was done to me and given that the first scenario is at least as likely as the second, Arbcom should look into it. Given Lar's and Versageek's lack of response on their talk pages, my suspicions are heightened. Consider also the idea that I was acting malevolently vs. in good faith. There is no proof for the first, but plenty of proof for the second. I used the alternate accounts for a damn year and did no harm, but suddenly I meant to do harm here? It is so obvious, and could be figured out so easily that I don't think it falls within admin discretion.

And notice something else: You've got two CUs on one side and one editor on the other. If we're having trouble figuring out just what WP:SOCK permits and doesn't permit, which is given the benefit of the doubt -- the editor or the checkusers who need to know that policy inside and out in order to deal with socks? J.delanoy, a CU, will block if an editor makes a mistake, then demands of me that I prove Versageek's bad faith -- yet he would require no determination of bad faith on my part before he thinks I should be blocked. It's a double standard, and a typical one. New admins are sometimes told they can expect to make mistakes with the tools. Why not expect editors to make mistakes when policy is not always easy to decipher? What exactly was the justification for not assuming good faith here?

-- JohnWBarber (talk) 13:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "high drama" -- you find something useful in that phrase of Lar's. I find it absolutely arrogant. It also illustrates just how far afield Lar and Versageek are from policy -- that thing that editors and admins are supposed to be guided by. Policy is what admins point to when they tell you you've done something wrong. It's what Arbcom refers to when they make rulings. And yet there's nothing in policy about avoiding "high drama". Simultaneously accusing me of going against policy while using a strained interpretation of policy is -- an interpretation so strained that it actually contradicts what the policy actually says -- is arrogant on the part of Lar and Versageek. I didn't start that DRV for fun: I had a serious purpose in trying to help this project. There's nothing wrong and everything right about starting a DRV when a closing admin engages in outrageous conduct (even if only I thought the conduct was outragious -- but if you look at the DRV, you'll find that most editors commenting in it agreed on that point). There's an attitude (shared by Lar, Versageek, Delanoy, maybe others) that admins are some kind of demigods in Wikipedia and that policies are there to be bent or ignored by admins, and to criticize an admin is some kind of attack. My attitude is that if an admin can't point to a clear policy or a clear danger of harm to the wiki or some kind of harm to another editor, that admin is wrong to block, threaten to block or to use any tools or authority on me. I think mine's the right attitude and Lar's is clearly a bad attitude.
 * "Shankbone" -- The only way you can have more than a tiny concern about me and Shankbone is by assuming bad faith. I commented briefly on him in two or three posts in the AfD, and those weren't unsympathetic comments either. It simply cannot be more clear to anyone looking at the AfD and DRV that my participation had to do with whether the sourcing was good enough and whether we should follow policy. It's obvious that's what I cared about. It's all I discussed after the first few posts in the AfD and it's all I discussed in the DRV -- that and the closing admin's actions. When my clean-start action was destroyed, not one vote changed in the DRV. And support for my position actually increased in the votes after that. How could my support for keeping the article be some kind of subtle attack on Shankbone when I originally wanted to delete it? And my change of position came automatically and was based on the same principles I voiced originally. I happened to have a new account when I saw the Shankbone AfD, I certainly didn't create the account a year before the article existed and resign from my original account weeks before the article existed in order to hide my identity so that I could somehow hurt Shankbone by opposing and then supporting the existence of the article. That my reasons throughout were perfectly understandable and consistent also makes the idea ridiculous. Look at Lar's comments in the DRV. He was enraged at me. That's why he didn't see it. My earlier conflict with Shankbone was rather mild. I was unnecessarily sarcastic (in, frankly, a nasty way) in a thread at Wikipedia Review (I was irked that he had said a Fox News anchor was gay in a post on his [Shankbone's] blog). During Less Heardvanyou's re-election as admin, I said he was criticizing LHVU for getting involved in too much drama while himself constantly getting involved in too much drama. He then quickly started a discussion on my talk page and I told him I wasn't interested in having a discussion with him -- and that point I decided I should apologize for what I'd said at WR. I also told him at that point that I remained "appalled" at his behavior and might comment again if I happened to run across more appalling behavior. I have a low opinion of his actions -- that doesn't mean I hate him or want harm to come to him. This last discussion with him happened months ago. When it came to WP having an article on him, I think it would have caused a lot of bother for a lot of admins and a different kind of bother for him. (I did have a conflict with him briefly about two years ago, he annoyed me by commenting on my talk page and by his comments about another editor.) This is hardly the stuff of hatreds and vendettas. We actually happen to know just how important my past conflicts with Shankbone were to people involved in the DRV: We know that it didn't make one damn bit of difference. No one changed their mind because of it. (Forgive the length, but you brought it up.)
 * It seems to me that there's no prohibition on clean-start accounts commenting in things like DRVs for a damn good reason: It doesn't matter unless the situation is so bad that the editor with the new account is actually engaging in disruption. Using the phrase "high drama" seems to be meant by Lar to fudge the fact that "criticism" and "debate" are not actually synonyms for "disruption". Shouldn't clean-start accounts be allowed to do what policy doesn't forbid, especially if a clear case can't be made that they're doing harm? Isn't that just fundamentally fair? And isn't excusing bad blocks and smearing fundamentally unfair? Should this really be so difficult to see? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I crossed out the parts about "arrogance" above. Sometimes what looks like arrogaance isn't. JohnWBarber (talk) 04:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You're at a disadvantage not knowing more about this situation. There are only two senses in which the JohnWBarber account was a sock: In relation to (a) User:Reconstruction and the other accounts I was using and (b) in relationship to Noroton. With regard to the other accounts, that apparently had nothing to do with the block, since Versageek has never referred to it. I agree that I shouldn't have participated in an AfD or DRV with anything other than my main account (technically User:Reconsideration after Noroton resigned and stopped editing on Oct. 5). Having those multiple accounts was a violation by this point, but only technically, since no harm was ever done by them (and no one says there was). Knowledge of the Barber account's connection with those accounts would have revealed nothing of interest to anyone. Regarding the connection between JohnWBarber and Noroton, there was not even a technical violation of WP:SOCK by this point. None. Not even under the "misusing a checkuser account" bullet item. In relation to Noroton, JohnWBarber wasn't a sock any more. So citing current policy doesn't get us anywhere: Not even under current policy was JohnWBarber's participation in the AfD or DRV a violation (with regard to Noroton) or a meaningful violation (with regard to being a sock of Reconsideration).


 * I'm not saying it should have been obvious in an instant (I've repeatedly said a CU could well have been suspicious, although I don't think I realized that until I went back and read WP:SOCK after the block). I'm saying that I could have instantly explained what was going on and a CU could have instantly confirmed what I said by looking at diffs. It simply is obvious when you look at my conduct: The edit histories of all the non-Noroton accounts are not huge except for User:Reconsideration, which is about 99 percent edits to year-in-poetry pages, so the history of each of these accounts can be figured out pretty quickly. Anyone who thought I had a conflict with Shankbone with the Noroton account could have readily confirmed that (there's a web page somewhere that shows which pages any two editors have both edited, and a search of noticeboards could have been done pretty quickly).


 * if Shankbone later discovered your involvement, and that multiple checkusers knew about it but said nothing about it, that would be a scandal. Thank you for discussing this with me, because it's helping me to think about it from another perspective, and this is valuable. I'll have to think more about it, but here are some initial thoughts: If he'd discovered my involvement and the knowledge of checkusers, I assume the checkusers cold say: "We discussed the matter with JohnWBarber, found no violation of policy, specifically no active deception or effort to disrupt, or disruption. [...] What exactly did JohnWBarber do to harm you, David? Do you have any reason to believe what he was doing was meant to harm you?" Now, in fact, we know exactly what David Shankbone's reaction would be, and he must have gone through just about the same thinking to get there. I don't consider his reaction to be extraordinarily graceful, I consider it to be common sense and a lack of animus (perhaps extraordinarily level headed, given some of the other comments that were cropping up -- and notice how those editors shut up once I posted explanations). The fact is, DS and I had a couple of run-ins, not any kind of feud. In order to think I was acting maliciously, there should be a burden of proof on the person who thinks so. Anything else is unfair. Anyway, Versageek's reasoning was based on a reading of my comments at the AfD and DRV that were "deceptive" and "disruptive" (which is what Lar is talking about when he referred to "high drama editing with the sock"). And both Versageek's and Lar's interpretation of WP:SOCK was completely, unacceptably outside of policy (in both letter and spirit).


 * You're supposed to follow community norms, not just the letter of these policies. I don't believe there was a community norm that I violated. How can there be a community norm for participation by a cleanstart account in an AfD? If you don't want cleanstart accounts participating in certain discussions, that needs to be clearly stated in policy because the harm is just not obvious (you'd probably have to set a time limit on it, because you wouldn't want to say the cleanstart account can't participate forever). But I think your real concern is my participation in a matter involving someone I'd had a conflict with in the past. How would you write up a passage on something that would cover this? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

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Your concerns
A simple query such as this one would have shown that your premise is wrong, and thus your concern misplaced. Mr. Hicks The III (talk) 22:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up
I've been a little busy lately, but appreciate you dropping me a note about the Jonathan Cook AfD. Seems to have gotten enough community attention anyway (thankfully). I wish that had been the case for a recent AfD I started on the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Gaza Strip) which only garnered a handful of votes, few of which offered more sources or even made reference to policy. It was closed by a non-admin while I was away, who did not seem to bother to read the comments or the questions/rebuttals I raised. I'd be happy to admit I was wrong, if more sources could be provided. Do you have any info to add there that might help establish notability? If nothing comes up soon, I may relist it since I'm still of the opinion that its a personal theory of two journalists who write for an Israeli newspaper and not much more. Anyway, thanks again and happy editing.  T i a m u t talk 10:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
--NBahn (talk) 09:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

--NBahn (talk) 10:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

J+S case
Any thoughts on this? Think it would stand a chance?  nableezy  - 04:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course you may dedicate to those editors, whose wit, intelligence, and fairness are very much missed in the IP domain. No problem about not having time to get to that article. Its a rather sad waste of time as it is and your energies are likely better spent elsewhere. Happy editing Mackan79.  T i a m u t talk 08:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I add my thanks, too. Perhaps you should check with the admin in this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Isarig ...if they have some data. Anyway, good work! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Cook
Congratulations on your good work at the AfD. As I expect you gathered from my comments, while I didn't think there was sufficient coverage in RSs evidenced at the time the AfD started, it was largely your good work on finding RS coverage that changed my vote from delete to keep. Excellent work on your part. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

AE
Fair point on the sock. Tx for clarifying that. Do you think that I need to say anything agreeing with you at the AE, as to that point? Or perhaps I should cross out that fn? Or just let it stand?

I'm not sure I follow your other points. I imagine that ArbCom's clarification clarified the application of the ban(s) to the AfD. But it didn't (as it was the wrong forum for that) speak to the issue of what sanctions should be applies for willful breach of the ban(s). Though the arbitrators did signal what type of sanctions would be appropriate, and also signaled that (as at least one of the editors admitted) the fact that the afd was within the scope of the ban was self-evident.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW -- reflecting the extent of my cluelessness, I had left this notification to let Hick know I had referred to his diff! Not sure I've focused on who all the socks are.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

fyi
still owe you a response. in the meantime, this afd may interest you ... .--Epeefleche (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

ANI
Thanks for your support at the ANI page.  Drolz 09  22:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * re Arbcomm. Thanks for the heads up.  Drolz 09  23:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer your question about my name, I used to play World of Warcraft with the name Drolan, which people often shortened to Drols or Drolz when talking to me, and eventually I just started using the latter. I am a little unclear on what you mean by "There are noted exceptions who snipe at will, but many a more souls who went down thinking they could do the same. I do disagree with those above on one point, in that I hope you're guilty as sin, since that would justify the whole response. I haven't yet been convinced." Of what do you hope I'm guilty, and what response?  Drolz 09  05:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, that's reasonable. That's essentially what I thought you meant but it is so hard to tell with textual humor sometimes. If I were a sock, I can't imagine that I would devote this much time to defending myself. Isn't the point of having socks that you can just move on whenever you get blocked?  Drolz 09  05:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah that has been pointed out to me. I have to figure that if simple trolling were my intent, there are easier ways to do it than actually trying to make coherent arguments against people. Certainly, I don't usually expect trolls to make cogent arguments elsewhere; maybe it's different at WP though. I'm still pretty inexpert, despite what some people seem to believe is a suspiciously high familiarity with the system here.  Drolz 09  05:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That is... an idea.  Drolz 09  06:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Just a suggestion...
I don't think filing an ArbCom case on Jehochman's actions is going to be useful without earlier steps (RfC, etcetera), it's not going to be so urgent that ArbCom will take it without other steps having been tried first. SirFozzie (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's possible. Having considered it, my view was that the AN/I discussion had basically served as an RfC.  There were several views, but it concerns me that it is a fairly charged issue where many are involved, or have views, and in which I question the ability of more community discussion to resolve the matter.  I also started filing this before Drolz09 was unblocked, and think his ability to participate in the discussion was a significant issue.  If ArbCom decides it should go to an RfC, perhaps that's up to them.  Potentially they would also be willing to do a motion since there is not a lot of evidence involved, while others have mentioned a broader case.  I'll welcome further input.  Mackan79 (talk) 00:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Concur w/SirFozzie. I recently brought a rather clear cut case, in which the arbs seemed to have a view (and could have handled it w/a simple motion), to arbitration, and they asked me to first bring it to RfC. The RfA ended up just being a waste of time.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * True. One problem is I kind of dread the theatrics of an RfC.  You throw a big party, and what if nobody comes?  I guess that's why the great movers and shakers around here have to be good in front of the podium, and good before the panel. Mackan79 (talk) 10:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for your support of Drolz. I was stunned by the block, although RL is interfering, so it is possible I haven't properly followed all if the unfolding events. My view is that tensions were quite high a week or so ago, but had calmed down considerably, with Drolz attempting to contribute positively through talk comments. The block seemed to appear out of the blue. While I'm not convinced that an Arb case is timely, I hope that even if turned down, the notice will help ensure that the broader issues get more attention.-- SPhilbrick  T  15:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Kudos on an excellent observation
ArbCom statement

I was a bit surprised to see the request for ArbCom involvement. Not because there isn't a problem, but for the very reasons you articulate - it's a broad, multi-editor, multi-issue mess.

My view of ArbCom is limited, but like you, I see them as most effective when a very small number (two or three) editors are locked in battle, and it is plausible to design a specific remedy. I fear that the climate debate cuts to the shortcomings of the WP model - I hope I"m wrong, but I'm not counting on the committee coming up with a workable solution.

I thought it would make sense to identify a small issue - agree on a resolution process and then resolve it. Wouldn't accomplish much, but if we then moved on to another small issue, and another, we might whittle the problem down to a manageable remainder. Alas, even something as uncontroversial as the inclusion of an item barely discussed in the media quickly derailed. example here.

I shouldn't give up after one attempt, but it is discouraging to see minor items so difficult to tackle.-- SPhilbrick  T  19:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Nableezy/Sandstein
It seeem pretty clear now that Sandstein is not going to change his mind, and that a formal appeals procedure should be initiated. I had been thinking of doing this myself, but wanted to give Sandstein a chance to reconsider. I was impressed by your sensible and measured comments on Sandstein's talk page, and I think that you would be a much better person to do this, partly because I am still fuming over this outrage (so you will be more objective, which is always more persuasive), and partly because you are more familiar with this sort of task anyway. I do hope you will help.

Many thanks,

--NSH001 (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Mackand79. I would like to work on two things regarding what has happened to Nableezy. One is to file an appeal of Sandstein's decision which I will begin in my user space shortly. The second, concurrent to this, would be opening a User RfC on Sandstein regading his abuse of his admin powers. I have asked Gatoclass for some advice on how to proceed. I hope he responds soon. When I have drafts up in my user space, I will be contacting you for feedback. I hope you will co-sign both the appeal and the User RfC. Also, check out Nableezy's talk page to see what has happened most recently and why these steps are absolutely necessary. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 19:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, Nableezy has decided to file an appeal at AE.  T i a m u t talk 21:22, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks
I want to thank you very much for your help with my block and especially for digging in an gaining an understanding of the rather complex issues involved. I thought your comments re the COI were spot on. Thanks again. JPatterson (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: No complaints
See which is one of the mildest posts that editor has ever made about me . That complaints are not filed does not mean innocence on his part, I would suggest! Collect (talk) 13:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Talkback
GoRight has asked a question for you. Minima c  94 ( talk ) 22:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

question from goright
--mark nutley (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ref what you've said here, I'm getting repeated warnings for "advocacy" at GW, when what I'm doing is advocating improvement of articles (in particular, that they be more informative). The criticism extended briefly to the noting of my own opinion, which is necessary in order to try and avoid being labelled "septic" (a practice that's been mysteriously given the all clear). All very Catch-22. The criticism started from one/two sources - quite baffling, am I being warned not to discuss GW on my TalkPage? Now the criticism has stepped up and sounds more official, but it all comes from a different source (going by 2 different names!). Should I feel privileged, I was found competent to make a good case, so I've been handed up the hierarchy of enforcement? I don't know what's normal, but it sure makes one wonder what's going on. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 10:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

2009 Aftonbladet Israel controversy
Where is the statement regarding the article's claims disputed by the author, the paper and - more importantly - others? You wrote on the talk page that the paper's culture editor disputed it, but people within the paper are obviously not the best sources for this issue, since (a) the paper is not a high-quality source, (b) it is not independent regarding this issue, and (c) it could be motivated by damage control. If you show me a few independent reliable sources saying so, I'll accept your position. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 02:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Essay on working with controversial topics
I think that's a fantastic idea and sorely overdue. I was also quite impressed with your posting at ANI. I'm probably not as eloquent, but I have my moments, and would like to know if/when you do begin an essay on this so I can help. Equazcion ( talk ) 23:22, 16 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, it's something I've wanted to do for a while, though I haven't set aside the time to think it through. I just have that tragic list of editors where I thought, "does this person need advice?  nah, they know what they're doing."  There should definitely be a good essay though, about where editors go wrong and how not to follow them.  The truth is I may be better at helping than starting myself, though, so feel free to take the initiative if you like. Mackan79 (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been doing some thinking about this topic as well. I'm not an experienced editor but I do have some war wounds. Something along the lines of "surviving in an asymmetrical editing environment", that would help new editors get the lay of the land before they fall into a pit. Let me know if this gets started, I'll help in whatever way I can. JPatterson (talk) 00:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems I may have misread your comment, Mack. I originally thought you were saying that being either pro or anti- anything should not be favored, but you just meant with regard to religion, it seems, and not topics where one POV has a vast majority support, like pedophilia and ethnicity. My personal view is actually that being pro- or anti- anything at all should never be favored, and the quality rather than the motive of the edits should be judged in nearly all cases regardless of the topic. The essay I would write might be very different from one you'd support, just FYI. Let me know if I'm totally misinterpreting though. Equazcion ( talk ) 02:28, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, right. My main point, at least at AN/I, was limited to the topic of religion, and the truth is I am thinking here of the basic issues with religion and equality, whether in an encyclopedia or elsewhere.  My point is that when it comes to religion, there is actually a rather fundamental principle that Wikipedia should maintain a kind of neutrality as to the beliefs of editors, whether they are pro-religious or anti-religious, generally or with regard to a specific religion.  So if we said that editors must promote NPOV with regard to religious topics, then fine, but to single out either promotion or criticism of religion in order to prohibit it is problematic in a way that singling out other types of agendas may not be.  As far as your point, I'm certainly not saying that we should try to look at editors' motivations in other situation, only that it would present a different set of issues.  I do think that generally the question is always whether the edits comply with policy.  That wasn't the idea for the essay, anyway, where I was just thinking about advice for new editors who find themselves facing problems in a controversial area.  I'm not sure how divergent our views are on any of this, but on that they would probably be about the same. Mackan79 (talk) 03:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, that clarifies things somewhat, thanks. I started User:Equazcion/Editing controversial subjects. It's very preliminary and some of it is just a collection of unorganized thoughts, but I'd be interested to get your feedback. You may recognize some of your words from your ANI comment and from your post on Noleander's talk page, not sure how much of the actual words survived my editing though :) On the purpose of the essay, I've combined both the principal regarding how such editors should be "handled" and advice for those editors. I think they're both important. There's the problem that the principal won't be as generally accepted here as the advice though -- perhaps they belong in two separate essays. Not sure. Anyway there you have it. Equazcion  ( talk ) 03:40, 17 Feb 2010 (UTC)
 * Equazcion: outstanding start on that essay!  One suggestion I might make is to use some concrete examples: those are much more vibrant than generic pronouncements. Perhaps use some fictional article about, say, Berzerkistan.  So you could follow up a generic recommendation like this:
 * It is also essential to balance your work improving the presentation of a minority or controversial POV with edits that represent an honest attempt to improve the presentation of the opposing POV as well, along with the entire article as a whole. For instance, before proposing to add a new topic "Berzerkistaners are known for excessive body odor", you should spend time improving the grammar, formatting, and sourcing of the article.
 * Keep up the good work. --Noleander (talk) 12:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've taken your advice but I'll have to avoid the specific example that suggests eastern Europeans smell :) The one I used was about Canada's military, you can see it in the essay. I think it's rather innocuous, but I could be wrong. Your input would be welcome on the talk page there if you have any, or if you want to help edit the essay directly. Equazcion  ( talk ) 04:24, 19 Feb 2010 (UTC)

Mackan79: Thanks for the suggestions you left on my Talk page. I'm rather new to WP (compared to most others) and the processes are a bit puzzling sometimes :-) I agree that we all need to strive to work together to move forward in controversial areas.  Before making any edit in a controversial area, I ask myself:  "What is best for the reader of this encyclopedia?" ... I find that gives good direction.   I also agree that it is best to make generic, non-controversial improvements, rather than focusing on isolated, controversial areas.  The biggest beef I have with WP is that many decisions seem to be made by majority vote, which typically produces a skewed outcome, since the editors in a given article tend to mostly be from one side.  A good definition of "consensus" is "An outcome that the parties may not like, but they can live with".  But many decisions in controversial topics are made hastily, without going thru the work to try to reach that middle ground. Too many decisions are black or white, when we should be striving for grey. Right now I'm trying to improve Criticism of Judaism which is a horrible article, compared to sister articles like Criticism of Islam or Criticism of Christianity, but what do you do when there are 4 or 5 editors that say "no" to every suggestion? Even benign suggestions, like improving section titles, or re-grouping sections. I don't like resorting to RfC or AN or whatever (I've never done one before) because it seems so childish, like running to mommy. Maybe I'll give it a try for that article. Anyway, thanks for the input, and good luck with the "controverial topic" essay. (FYI, there is an essay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Religion that is somewhat relevant, but Im sure you've seen it already). Regards, --Noleander (talk) 12:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment, and I agree with much of the above (other than about the specific articles, which I'm not familiar with). As far as specific suggestions I'm working them up on this essay.  My honest view on your situation is that if you will assume good faith in those objecting, and keep trying respectfully to improve the article, while taking heed of some of the advice you've been getting, that you shouldn't be unable to make improvements.  If you show yourself to be careful, thoughtful, and willing to dig for sources, and the edits you're seeking are strongly supported by policy, people won't say no forever.  But ultimately you have to work with the people on the talk page.  Other thoughts I'll put in the essay. Mackan79 (talk) 04:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks...
...yes, is definitely an improvement. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, good. I was afraid we'd have to rochambeau over it, and wasn't sure how that would work. Mackan79 (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Water! (drowns rocks and scissors, drenches paper ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's easy -- clearly you didn't have Battle Beasts when you were a kid. Memory lane... Mackan79 (talk) 09:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

There are complications
with your edit at Climate change denial. Please address this. If someone like you were more involved in that article, I think it would be helpful, because I think you're pretty level-headed, and whether or not I agree or disagree with you on something, that's something we could always use more of (particularly in that article). And if you're going to get involved with the article, please review the AfD. Sorry it's long, but it identifies a lot of the problems with the article, and I expect to be detailing more and more of them at both the AfD and the talk page. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Climate change denial
Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed is on article probation. -- TS 18:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log, a recently started discussion on these notification messages to which you may want to contribute. Perhaps the wording needs to be made clearer so as not to mislead or even drive away new editors. --TS 18:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look
Please look over Talk:Climate change denial. I've changed my mind and have some ideas for adding back the information, but I don't want to do it without getting some feedback. When you get a chance, please look it over. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:55, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Please review the policy
Incorrect, Mackan, leaving notices on the talk pages of wikiprojects is the proper way to inform interested people without canvassing; please re-read WP:CANVASS. -- Avi (talk) 16:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That must depend on the kind of issue you are raising, and the kind of message you leave. If you wanted to ask for input on Talk:Criticism of Judaism, I might agree, but I don't see how the wikiproject can be allowed to become a part of dispute resolution.  Here I notice that you posted several accusations on the article talk page, on his talk page, and on the wikiproject all at the same time saying you thought he was disruptive and asking whether others agreed.  I don't see how that can be considered fair. Mackan79 (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom review
I've requested an ArbCom review. Cla68 (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Continued discussion from RfArb
Since it's not fair to others to keep throwing statements in on my comment, I figured I'd come over and speak with you directly. Yes, I am quite familiar with AE, having worked there for many months both prior and after my break from here. And yes, I've run into heated discussions on that page, where an administrator was busy dismantling the thing I thought had kept a topic area under control, because he couldn't point to a specific authorization from the Committee about a general topic restriction. So yes, I do know the area quite well.

I just think that this could easily be solved with a discussion at AN/ANI.. if you have proof that he's affecting decisions. However, it seems to me like making an arbitration request to decide what section he should post in is.. somewhat similar to using sticks of dynamite to kill flies. SirFozzie (talk) 08:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I raised it on the talk page and was going to see where it went there. But I think there is confusion about what the enforcement system means by "uninvolved."  Stephan is as involved as he could be; it is simply that he is involved on Ratel's side rather than against him.  Does ArbCom's definition of "uninvolved" absolve him in all respects?  I don't think so, and I don't think it's academic.  Editors are trying to push Lar away as involved simply because of who he has criticized.  Never mind that BozMo, another admin in the arena has been at least as critical of editors on the other side and actively edits the topic area.  Stephan here is on a completely different level, but if he can claim that by ArbCom's definition he is uninvolved, and then even use the protected space to make veiled attacks on other involved editors, then it is questionable what AN/I or any other forum can do. Mackan79 (talk) 08:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Your question
Hi Jehochman, I noticed that you collapsed the section on the canvassing issue (oddly called a WP:MEAT violation by one editor). I'd like to ask, however, about the first diff that you said you found unpersuasive regarding Ratel's acknowledgment to have canvassed for the request. You may have seen it was first pointed out first by Cla68 that Ratel did not notify all of the active editors on the page. Ratel said, "However, yes, I do suspect an element of bad faith in editors trying to insert FUD into climate-related article though, so I did not inform them." Does this not suggest to you an issue with an excessively battleground mentality? It does not strike me as exactly subtle. I would ask you other questions here, but it seems more appropriate to comment over there. Mackan79 (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It does not strike me that this single incident would be sanctionable. We need to leave room for differences of understanding, minor errors and such.   As part of a larger pattern of repeatedly borderline behavior, sanctions might be appropriate.  Alas, noticeboards are not suitable for evaluation a large pattern of edits.  For that you need WP:RFC or WP:RFAR. Jehochman Talk 22:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

One bit of advice
Although we've disagreed on a number of things, I want to repeat that I have a lot of respect for you, and that respect has gone up even higher in the past week or so. At this point, I don't see any further value in editing in the WP:GSCC area, although I might change my mind. You've been reasonable throughout and I get the impression (I'm avoiding looking too closely, for my own peace of mind) that your reasonableness is not being returned. Personally, I can take only so many days or weeks of that and then I either need to leave or explode (I'm not quite there yet, but my boiling point tends to sneak up on me). My little bit of advice is easy to give and hard to follow: Whatever you do, don't let anyone goad you into anything rash. Nothing added or removed or reorganized in any of these articles is worth a rash action on your part. I think you retain a lot of credibility with a lot of editors and keeping cool will preserve it for when credibility is (eventually, one day) going to be very useful in this mess. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Arbitration/Requests and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
 * Arbitration/Requests;
 * Arbitration guide.

Thanks,  Ryan Postlethwaite See the mess I've created or let's have banter 13:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change
An Arbitration request in which you are involved has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Workshop.

Additionally, please note that for this case specific procedural guidelines have been stipulated; if you have any questions please ask. The full outline is listed on the Evidence and Workshop pages, but please adhere to the basics:
 * The issues raised in the "Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephen Schultz and Lar" requests may be raised and addressed in evidence in this case if (but only if) they have not been resolved by other means.
 * Preparation of a formal list of "parties to the case" will not be required.
 * Within five days from the opening of the case, participants are asked to provide a listing of the sub-issues that they believe should be addressed in the committee's decision. This should be done in a section of the Workshop page designated for that purpose. Each issue should be set forth as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question—for example:
 * "Should User:X be sanctioned for tendentious editing on Article:Y"?
 * "Has User:Foo made personal attacks on editors of Article:Z?"
 * "Did Administrator:Bar violate the ABC policy on (date)?"
 * "Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles by modified by (suggested change)?"
 * The committee will not be obliged to address all the identified sub-issues in its decision, but having the questions identified should help focus the evidence and workshop proposals.


 * All evidence should be posted within 15 days from the opening of the case. The drafters will seek to move the case to arbitrator workshop proposals and/or a proposed decision within a reasonable time thereafter, bearing in mind the need for the committee to examine what will presumably be a very considerable body of evidence.
 * Participants are urgently requested to keep their evidence and workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible.
 * The length limitation on evidence submissions is to be enforced in a flexible manner to maximize the value of each user's evidence to the arbitrators. Users who submit overlength diatribes or repetitious presentations will be asked by the clerks to pare them. On the other hand, the word limit should preferably not be enforced in a way that hampers the reader's ability to evaluate the evidence.
 * All participants are expected to abide by the general guideline for Conduct on arbitration pages, which states:
 * Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in Arbitration as in all other areas of Wikipedia.
 * Until this case is decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior.
 * Any arbitrator, clerk, or other uninvolved administrator is authorized to block, page-ban, or otherwise appropriately sanction any participant in this case whose conduct on the case pages departs repeatedly or severely from appropriate standards of decorum. Except in truly egregious cases, a warning will first be given with a citation to this notice. (Hopefully, it will never be necessary to invoke this paragraph.)

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ~ Amory ( u  •  t  •  c ) 00:36, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

"The Gore Effect" - lede
I noted your recent edit which significantly altered the opening presentation of the article. There is already a discussion well underway in the talk section related to reaching some consensus in that regard. I am going to restore the lede which you edited and which has been used as a starting point for discussion. If you have some opinion to offer in that regard, I invite you to contribute to the talk discussion so we can mitigate the potential for edit-warring the lede and try to reach some consensus. Thanks JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I accidentally hit enter while finishing up so apologies for the errors and no summary. Mackan79 (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: Edits to The Gore Effect
I combined your section into the ongoing discussion about the lede and I reverted a number of edits on the article page. Since the lead is the subject of discussion, we'll need that before changing it. I'm pretty upset with Nsaa's edits, but I trust that you changed the lead because you didn't realize the discussion was ongoing. If I've done something wrong on the talk page, feel free to restart your section, I won't revert. I'm more than happy to discuss any ideas you have for the article. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

More Gore
And I repeat, in response to your "And yet none of the nonpartisan, third-party sources discuss this even so far as to address whether the joke has any basis in reality or is purely a fabrication":

The article in question, The Gore Effect, quotes CNN meteorologist Rob Marciano but does not include his description of the "Gore Effect" as a joke among weathermen. Here it is:


 * MARCIANO: It's the Al Gore effect. I mean that - that's - in the weather community, we kind of joke about it. It's just a bad timing. Every time there's some big weather climate conference, there seems to be a cold outbreak. But, globally, we are still warming. We'll see how it pans out for - for 2010. But globally, temperatures, believe it or not, are still above average.


 * You see he makes a point that it's a joke, and goes on to affirm the globe is still warming. No climate denier, no Gore attacker.  (An example of a non-attack joke: WP's article on Polish jokes does not constitute an ethnic attack.)

Also, please see my input at the bottom of this page. Regards, Yopienso (talk) 01:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think it matters that this person calls it a joke. Normally we don't write about jokes, but if we did, presumably we would have something about the joke to explain to readers at the point where we were creating an independent article on the subject (this source doesn't explain anything about it; he immediately moves on to the state of climate change).  Anyway, it makes more sense to discuss this on the relevant pages. Mackan79 (talk) 19:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a moot point now that the article has been kept, but the reason it matters that Marciano calls it a joke is because I understood your "...whether the joke has any basis in reality or is purely a fabrication" to mean whether the joke was serious and built upon facts of if it was a made-up spoof. Your comment of 02:43, 12 June 2010 implied that it's not true the weather is typically cold when Gore speaks.  I believe Marciano's "Every time..." is an exaggeration and the weather it is not typically cold, but occasionally cold.  Therefore the joke rests on those occasions, not on a scientific plotting of temperatures on days Gore (or Pelosi or nations) present evidence for climate change.
 * "Normally we don't write about jokes..." You seem to have missed the link to our "Category:Jokes" page.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category%3AJokes
 * "...presumably we would have something about the joke to explain to readers at the point where we were creating an independent article on the subject..." I don't really follow the "at the point where we were creating" part, but it seems you may mean every article must defend its existence.  I think that's for the talk pages, not for presenting within articles.
 * "Anyway, it makes more sense to discuss this on the relevant pages." Both you and I contributed quite heavily to the discussion.  I was repeating something to you personally here that you apparently missed when I said it on the talk page.
 * Incongruity lies at the heart of humor. The unexpected or out-of-place causes laughter.  The seriousness displayed by many editors on this issue makes me wonder if they are literally taking the joke way too seriously, or if they are humorless individuals, or if they are so fixated on apotheosizing Gore that they see honest and harmless laughter at the incongruous--unseasonable snow at a conference of dire predictions about global warming, for example--as an affront.  Not to say there's absolutely no malicious humor in any quarter, but that isn't the tone of the article.
 * Happy editing! --Yopienso (talk) 08:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you read Category:Jokes? I see we have one small article on the entire universe of Lightbulb jokes.  Personally I think political jokes tend to involve people pretending something is funny, but I suppose we'll disagree. Mackan79 (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did. If you click on the "+" at the top, instead of a list of only 3 articles under "I" and "P" you'll find 17.  Why would we have more than one article on Lightbulb jokes?  The point is, we do have an article on Lightbulb jokes....and Elephant jokes....and Polish jokes....and Redneck jokes.  Well, I won't list all 62.  That's 62 + 17 = 79 joke articles.  Nobody's asking for more than one article on The Gore Effect, only that it be included with the other 78--a reasonable request recently granted by Balloonman.


 * You're absolutely right that we don't all agree on what's funny! But just because something that offends you amuses me doesn't mean I'm pretending. In any case, I certainly appreciate your amiability. :-)  --Yopienso (talk) 22:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Gore Effect
I have reverted your edit to the introductory. Please seek a consensus as to your suggested text within talk. Please be reminded as well, no support for the premise that the satirical "Gore Effect", as approved by the AfD, and "other uses" are the same subject was offered in the dispute resolution section. Your suggested edit would ignore that consensus. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to solicit additional comments, as I have. However, I would appreciate if you considered what seem to be some problems with your view, mainly: 1.) in fact the closing admin in the AfD you've often quoted stated that he expected all meanings to be covered in the article 2.) the article has not at any point excluded any meanings, and 3.) I'd think a definitional sentence should not ignore multiple meanings in any case.  No?  I wonder if there is some clarification about the different meanings you might approve.Mackan79 (talk) 06:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's not debate it here. I'll be glad to engage in article talk JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Gore Effect
Your patience is amazing! Active Banana   ( bananaphone  19:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Climate change arbcomm
Apart from what's already been discussed (including, of course, the issue of reverts) what could the arbcomm have done (apart from they already did) to help with the 'Gore effect' article? The process there, IMO, has been especially dysfunctional, but I can't figure out what could be done to better it other than an endorsement of WP:SYNTH and maybe the comment Carcharoth made at one point to consider articles "as a whole". Guettarda (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know, really. I tend to think about user conduct, where most often I'm thinking that more editors, less reverts, would help the process.  I also like a broad view of BLP since I tend to get too fed up on articles where it's such a free-for-all about who should get the benefit of the doubt, but honestly I've stayed out of the case since I don't have any great ideas for how ArbCom can help. Mackan79 (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure if this shows up for you, but on the page history this is tagged as "Possible self promotion in userspace"! Looks like you used the word "I" too many times :) Guettarda (talk) 23:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! Too much navel gazing from this guy, clearly. Mackan79 (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I draw your attention to William M. Connolley (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Does help allay your concerns? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth...
... I thought that this was a particularly insightful comment. MastCell Talk 18:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, appreciated. I had a feeling someone would have to be thinking the same. Mackan79 (talk) 01:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Arb
RD has now collapsed the section, so discussion there is, I suppose, closed. But I wanted to reply to your reply to: anyway. If you're bored, we can stop.

I asked for examples of NPOV stuff, and failing to discuss. However, you sidestepped the NPOV and veered off to BLP. Further, you didn't give any particular diffs, but just said "I agree with some of these". So, for example, is perfectly NPOV. You may quibble it on BLP grounds, but that is another matter. The material is honest, accurate and fair. So, are you really complaining about NPOV or BLP?

As for discussion: you bring up and say the removing editor had asked how this was controversial to Watts. I find that baffling. Isn't someone being arrested for trying to extort money from you pretty obviously "controversial"? WVB wasn't then and isn't now an editor in good faith. But yes I agree it would have been better discussed on talk.

(adds): You said: I suppose it's possible FloNight, I, members of ArbCom are just being unfair - well yes, it is. I've answered every single one of FN's examples, and they all fall apart when examined. Are you defending *any* of them? You, I think, are being less unfair. Arbcomm are starting with a badly biased PD that was written by Rlevse, who has since thankfully departed. They are slowly reworking it into something sane (though it would have been better just to throw the whole thing out and start from something honest). That has set the tone of much of the discussion.

There is a good example of this I've just run across at User_talk:A_Quest_For_Knowledge. (Background: Joanne Nova is a an Australian freelance science presenter, writer, professional speaker & former TV host (to quote the current state of the article). But she is also a climate "skeptic", so needs to be puffed. So, she must be a *scientist* . Yes, read the edit comment - the "skeptic" types really do believe that having a BSc in science makes you a scientist. And quite possibly they know so little about it that they really believe this. I've tried to discuss this on the talk page, and you can see the total blank incomprehension there. AQFK reverts the same rubbish back in with no attempt at discussion (and I don't see you complaining about the "skeptics" reverting-without-discussion) - this is re-inserting nonsense into a BLP, which is what they pretend to care deeply about, but actually don't).

Anyway, sorry, that was the background rant. What I wanted you to look at was AQFK's talk. NW attempts to discuss the same issue: is she a scientist? Cla immeadiately jumps in with an attempt to derail the discussion. AQFK refuses to discuss the issue. This is a commonplace pattern; this is why I'm reluctant to spend time on talk with these people, because they are dishonest, and simply will not talk on the subject.

Another good example of fanatical removal to remove material is The Hockey Stick Illusion - see the talk there where any attempt to trim the unbalanced "reception" section is opposed William M. Connolley (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A late response: Thanks for this explanation. I will note that in contrast to you, just about my only interest in editing within this area relates to the BLPs and related articles, so the truth is I'm not especially well placed to evaluate disputes on other pages.  I don't mind removing statements that someone is a scientist, either, but I've felt that information perceived to be embarrassing is often pushed far too much.  As far as dishonesty among editors goes, I am certain that this is perceived on all sides.  Still, we say that Wikipedia can't be let to become a battleground.  I won't argue further, however, since I think this is not the best place to get into details. Mackan79 (talk) 02:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Reviewer granted
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If you do not want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

ANI mention (not negatively)
You were mentioned at WP:ANI. Dougweller (talk) 15:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Your assistance please...
You merged Kandahar detention facility with Sarposa prison. Could you please direct me to the prior discussion where this merge was discussed?

It seems like a terrible idea to me, since the Kandahar detention facility was a brand new US facility built within the Kandahar airport, where-as the Sariposa prison is an older Afghan run facility.

So I would have questioned the wisdom of this redirection, if I had participated in the discussion. I look forward to reviewing the arguments offered.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 00:59, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I found this announcement. It seems to me you did not offer any reason for this merge, orther than you had your steam up.  And so I ended up going to the effort of unnecessarily repeating myself.  Geo Swan (talk) 02:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Stephen Breyer
Stephen Breyer, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. AIR corn (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Your article submission Allegations of French apartheid


Hello Mackan79. It has now been over six months since you last edited your article submission, entitled Allegations of French apartheid.

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Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Northamerica1000(talk) 03:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

History of Christian thought on tolerance and persecution
Hello Mackan79! I am Jenhawk777 and I have recently done a major overhaul of the above article in an effort to focus it more on Christian thought, which reflects the title, broaden its sources, and hopefully get the tags removed and make every one happy. Oh, and I'm also working for world peace. :-) I am going through the talk page contacting anyone who demonstrated an interest in this delicious and obscure little article and am inviting them to come and take a look, give some input--even some criticism--and hopefully reach a consensus on getting those tags removed. Please take a look if you are still at all interested. Thank you! Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)