User talk:Mademoiselle Sabina/Archive A

Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia!

I just had a quick question and a comment regarding your recent edit to the article Misery. I was wondering why you deleted the paragraph that you deleted? I haven't read the book, so maybe the information was incorrect or misleading. If it wasn't, I don't understand the deletion. But -- and this leads into my comment -- when you delete an entire paragraph from an article, you definitely shouldn't mark the change as minor, and it's generally a good idea to mention (in your edit summary or on the talk page) why you made such a significant deletion so that other people can understand what you're doing.

Welcome again! We're glad to have you. :) Feel free to get in touch with my on my talk page (or you can reply here, if you like) if you've got any questions or if you want to chat. Hbackman 21:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that it's okay to reveal the ending if you want to, because of the spoiler warning. It is up to you, though. I thought that you might have been deleting what someone else wrote, which is why I kind of jumped on it.


 * I haven't been around too long, but I have some vague idea of what I'm doing... ;) don't hesitate to ask for advice if you need any! :) Hbackman 22:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Policies and guidelines
It seems to me that it is more helpful to a new person to refer them to specific policies or guidelines than to merely tell them about it. I try to quote the relevant section, when short, as well as provide the wikilink. It is easy for me to do. After 6 months or so, I have wikilinks for a dozen or more of the most frequently cited project pages memorized. But, it is hard for a new person to find the relevant passage sometimes.

Forgive me if it seems rude, but I took a look at some of your contributions. May I make a couple of brief comments? Regarding your edit of A Chorus Line, you might want to refer to Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29. "Generally, do not link [year only dates], unless they will clearly help the reader to understand the topic." But when I looked at the year article, 1997, I didn't see anything that would help me understand A Chorus Line. You will find numerous examples where this guidance is not followed. It is easy to get the impression that all single-years should be linked.

Your edit of balance beam was very interesting to me. I remember seeing Olga Korbut and Nadia Comaneci on TV coverage of the 1972 and 1976 Olympic games. Their performances were so beautiful that tears came to my eyes. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Misery
Hi!

I noticed you reverted my correction on the publishing status of the books in Misery (the film and the novel). Now, I haven't read the book, but I know for a fact that Misery's Child was in published form in the film, and that the manuscript was Paul's new, non-Misery book ("Untitled"). I've gone so far as to double check the DVD, just in case I had a false memory. In fact, I believe her buying Misery's Child in town is one of the clues that leads Buster to suspect her. In the case of the article, I had simply assumed someone had made a mistake without realizing, but you seem quite sure of how it is in the book...which leads me to think there may actually be no difference between the book and the film in that regard (not having read the book, again, I couldn't say). It's also possible King made a later revision, reflecting the film's choice (or vice versa). Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Yossarian  01:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi. Thanks for your message about the Misery edit!

I'm sorry for reverting your edit without checking with you about the DVD. The original Wikipedia edit--before I stepped in--made it seem as though Misery's Child was unpublished in the film, and that this was the book Paul was forced to rewrite. This seemed to be backed up by other reviews of the film I could find online, and I honestly couldn't remember anything different myself, so I made the changes. Since this doesn't seem to be the case--I stand corrected.

MC is definitely published in the novel version--I went back to my copy of Misery to check. My copy of the book dates from 1988, so it seems that this is an original plot point that carried over to the film. Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 05:13, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Children of Heaven
Great edit.

=)

Madangry 17:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the kind words about my edit! Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 03:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Gymnastics
According to your userpage, gymnastics was one of your hobbies, besides, English seems to be your native language (or at least you write in it at advanced level). Then why had you stopped contributions to related articles? :( I was waiting for a few words about compulsories... At least I, consider your edits very valuable.

P.S. If you don't like me speaking to you for any reasons, feel free to tell me this. I'll understand. Cmapm 02:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Cmapm! I don't mind your speaking to me at all. You've been very nice to me and you've been a great help on the gymnastics-related articles. Thanks for all your encouragement!


 * I actually hadn't realized that I hadn't updated the gymnastics articles in a few days. I've worked on brushing up the articles for some of the British and Brazilian gymnasts, and I've been thinking about how to go about writing about compulsories. I'll definitely be getting back to work now. :) Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 03:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi again, Mademoiselle Sabina! I've seen your latest addition to Artistic gymnastics article, it was great! Sorry, I hadn't taken into account, that you might edit biography articles instead of editing topics on general subjects. And I thought, that you stopped edits at all :) And once more I want to say, that I like your gymnastics-related editing very much!!! Cheers! Cmapm 09:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Theater
Thanks for your recent theater edits. --Arcadian 12:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * My pleasure! Mademoiselle Sabina 19:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"Alternative"
"Alternative" is both a noun and an adjective; "reserve" is fine, though. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 12:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As a professional writer and a native speaker of English, I am well aware of the fact that "alternative" is a noun and adjective. That doesn't change the fact that it was used incorrectly in your edit. For what it's worth, "alternate" is a term that is completely appropriate and common in American English as a term for a reserve athlete. It was used correctly and didn't need to be changed in the first place. A quick look through Wikipedia reveals that it is used on many athlete pages in various sports. I'm ending this discussion here, because I really do not wish to continue it. I refuse to argue with you. Mademoiselle Sabina 20:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The misuse of "alternate" to mean "alternative" has indeed become very common in U.S. English, and has even spread here to a lesser extent; I know many educated Americans who see it as an error, however, and it seems a pity to collude in the destruction of a clear and useful distinction. Given that "alternative is correct in all forms of English, while "alternate" is strictly incorrect in all forms, I'm not clear why (as a professional writer and native speaker of English) you objected to the change that I (as a professional writer and native speaker of English) made &mdash; nor why your message had such an unpleasant tone. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 22:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest you refer to any standard American dictionary. "Alternate" is listed as a proper noun--not slang--in Merriam-Webster, The American Heritage Dictionary and various other dictionaries. The only one I could not find a listing in was the Oxford Dictionary--ie, again, this is a proper American term and is perfectly acceptable in an article related to an American subject.


 * If you refuse to accept the fact that American grammar has different conventions and word usage than British English, well, there's nothing I can really say to you. "Alternate" is an acceptable term that is used in sports, arts, and other areas both in and outside of Wikipedia.


 * I strongly suggest you hold your own temper. If anyone is making a personal attack here, it's you. Nowhere on this page have I named you. I do not respect you whatsoever, because I feel you are incredibly condescending. I have now asked you twice--on my Talk page and your own--to cease pestering me with your messages. Stop harassing me. Mademoiselle Sabina 23:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Remark
I've noticed an update of your userpage: "I do lose patience with sloppy edits and pretension". After more than a year spent here I can tell you, that this is a permanent Wiki's problem, which is very disappointing sometimes. Anyway, if you leave Wikipedia, I'll leave it as well... Cmapm 14:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I'm not leaving Wiki! =) I'm probably going to change the page in a few days when I cool down somewhat. Luckily most of the editors on Wiki I have met have been extremely nice, but there are always a few who aren't. Someone on Wiki I intensely dislike--because I feel they are pretentious and do not research the edits they make--had changed a word in my gymnastics article to something completely nonsensical and I momentarily lost patience. I'm fine. :) Thank you for the concern and the words of support! They were needed today. Namaste Mademoiselle Sabina 19:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I stay here :) By the way, as concerns a category of people, whom you dislike, some time ago I had heard similar things from another user, a researcher, who had scientific degree in history. Besides, there is a wide variety of other cinic users here - trolls, vandals, etc. There is a long article Criticism of Wikipedia about Wiki's problems.


 * Feel free to edit or delete these my comments when you shall cool down, if you want. And, please, keep in mind my words in the last sentence of my previous comment. I didn't say them only for support, I really think so. Cmapm 21:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As you see below, I'm having a rough time. I suppose you can't control who is on Wikipedia, and you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. I'm going to take a look at that Wiki article. Thank you again for your kind words! Mademoiselle Sabina 23:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no experience in dispute resolutions and I'm not an administrator here (and don't intend to be one), but I pointed out a section in the Wikipedia's Manual of Style which I believe proves, that you are right (that article was about an American gymnast, right?) better, than even academic dictionaries do and asked to be more polite with a newbie all the more that he is an administrator in Wikipedia, on his talk page. We'll see whether this helps or not in this dispute's resolution, which, I believe, includes several personal attacks and inpoliteness on his side. If not, then I believe we'll have a right to request for comment on his conduct. Cmapm 01:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for supporting me here! Pointing out the Manual of Style section was wonderful. Yes, the article was about Tasha Schwikert, the American gymnast.


 * I really hope this doesn't need to go into Requests for Comment, but I'm glad to know that option is available, if necessary. I'm a bit surprised that an administrator would feel the need to respond in the fashion he did, with personal attacks.


 * I'm sorry that he involved you in this, but I thank you for defending me here. It's appreciated very much.Mademoiselle Sabina 07:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, he shows no signs of stopping this, so I have filed a dispute complaint. I was going to leave it as a Wiketiquette Alert, but seeing as how there's now an entire new userpage set up for this mess, I've submitted a Requent for Comment. We'll see how it turns out. Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 12:39, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now I see why the tone of your message was so unpleasant. I remember now &mdash; you were equally unpleasant when I made another correction to non-standard English in one of "your" articles. As I recall, on that occasion you insisted that it should stay because anyone who already knew about the subject would know what it meant. This time you're saying that the misuse of "alternate" to mean "alternative" should stay because the same mistake is made often in U.S. gymnastics and in Wikipedia articles. Have a little read of No personal attacks, and try to keep hold of your temper. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 23:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest you refer to any standard American dictionary. "Alternate" is listed as a proper noun--not slang--in Merriam-Webster, The American Heritage Dictionary and various other dictionaries. The only one I could not find a listing in was the Oxford Dictionary--ie, again, this is a proper American term and is perfectly acceptable in an article related to an American subject.


 * If you refuse to accept the fact that American grammar has different conventions and word usage than British English, well, there's nothing I can really say to you. "Alternate" is an acceptable term that is used in sports, arts, and other areas both in and outside of Wikipedia.


 * I strongly suggest you hold your own temper. If anyone is making a personal attack here, it's you. Nowhere on this page have I named you. I do not respect you whatsoever, because I feel you are incredibly condescending. I have now asked you twice--on my Talk page and your own--to cease pestering me with your messages. Stop harassing me. Mademoiselle Sabina 23:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Responding to messages isn't harassment. If you don't want responses, then don't say anything to be responded to. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 23:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think, whether responding to messages is harassment or not, depends on how a person responds to them. And please, keep in mind, that this user is a newbie in Wikipedia, she underlined this on her user page and asked for politeness (well before this dispute). Cmapm 01:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) The unpleasantness and impoliteness started with this user, not with me. Perhaps she's just extremely thin-skinned, and takes any disagreement to be a personal attack, but I'm afraid that there's nothing that I can do about that.  Note also that making personal attacks in a sort of schoolchild way – not actually naming the person, but making clear who you're talking about, and then trying to hide behind that flimsy disguise – is still making personal attacks.
 * 2) She's been here for long enough not to count as a newcomer &mdash; and in any case, I've done or said nothing that isn't appropriate to a newcomer (see 1, and User talk:Mel Etitis/Mademoiselle Sabina).
 * 3) When there's a word that has the same usage in U.S. and U.K. English, Wikipedia recommends its use rather than some local usage. In this case, "alternate" for "alternative" is a common (though far from universal) mistake in the U.S., and much less common in the U.K.; "alternative" has the same meaning in both varieties of English, and is therefore preferable.--Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:55, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I notice you completely ignore my references to sources that clearly state common usage in American English, and continue to refer to the use of "alternate" as a mistake. Since you refuse to look up the definition yourself, here it is:


 * Main Entry: 3al·ter·nate
 * Pronunciation: same as 1
 * Function: noun
 * 2 : one that substitutes for or alternates with another


 * This is exactly how the word was used in the article, and it adheres to the Manual of Style guidelines. If you wish to argue with the Merriam-Webster dictionary that is respected as a standard of my language, that is your choice. It does not, however, entitle you to enforce your own inaccurate standard of American English upon everyone else.


 * Furthermore, the hostility and personal attacks here have come from you, not me. I originally fixed the edit to use a neutral and correct word to avoid an argument; you are the one who came here and began a discussion needlessly. You referred to my message as "unpleasant" when it merely stated the facts--that your edit, no matter how much you choose to protest, was inappropriate. I have asked you numerous times to refrain from writing comments on my Talk Page; you have refused these requests. In addition, you have decided to comment in conversations with other users that clearly did not concern your edit. Was the discussion about you? I said "a user" and you chose to interpret it the way you did. I was making a comment on my own Talk Page--not anyone else's--the discussion was with another user and nowhere were you identified. Sorry, but this is a personal attack.


 * Frankly, I am tired of your immature attacks on my Talk Page. I am starting the dispute process. Mademoiselle Sabina 10:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Revert
This version of the page has been restored for ease of RFC reviewers, pertinent new entries have been added below. My apologies for any inconvenience. Mademoiselle Sabina 07:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC) Recent Events Due to recent events, certain entries on this page have been deleted. Archived copies of the entries and related discussion can be found at:

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mel_Ettis Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Mel_Etitis/Mademoiselle_Sabina Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#17_March_2006 My last comments on the issue are as follows: 1. I never made any personal attacks against ___, and responded to him in the same tone he addressed me. 2. I made repeated requests to cease his arguments; he continued to leave messages here. I did not respond in kind on his Talk Page, but repeatedly asked him to stop. 3. He refused to discuss the matter of the edit when he was presented with valid proof that I was correct; instead he stepped up his assertion that I was "hostile" and making personal attacks.

Any further discussion about this matter should be directed to the above indicated pages; anything written here will be deleted as soon as I see it. The one exception would be if you have valid suggestions for other forms of mediation or conflict resolution to offer. I have absolutely no desire to continue this dispute; however, I do feel the other user's conduct was abominable. Thanks. Mademoiselle Sabina 23:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Mademoiselle Sabina, I hope you will listen to some advice. You need to end the Rfc and take the deletion tag off. It makes no sense to continue this dispute over something so completely stupid. If you don't this will go on for days.

Both of you got on each other's nerves and went a little nutty over something silly. It happens all the time around this place : ) I've been there myself. Thank goodness I listened to some good advice and stopped. I was sure I was completely right at the time. Months later looking back I realize we both were at fault. Hope you will consider this advice. regards, --FloNight talk 23:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit]

RFC Evidence Missing due to your Action
Trying to follow the evidence in your RFC, links are broken because the page has been archieved without a link to same. Another faux pas. Talk pages are wikicommon, not user property to do with as you will. (Concealing evidence) Distorting the evidence by reverting as above, or hiding it without a fixed link is inappropriate behaviour. You've asked dozens of people for their time in generating the RFC, so you have to support their efforts, not undermine them. You should unarchieve, or manually go into the RFC and change the relevant cites (and appropo documentation of same and why) so they point to the proper sections or subsections. The relevant section of the moment is #22, iirc. I'd suggest accessing the original page and pasting the contents back into this one above the current material, but below the welcome template. You can then batch archieve when this affair is over since the page will be there (or when you have enough to worry about archieving). FrankB 07:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC) Hi, I am still responding to your other messages. As for the RFC---the appropriate links are footnoted within the Description of the complaint. I'll be happy to revert the page to the original if it will make the discussion easier, but I honestly thought you'd just know to follow the footnotes. Mademoiselle Sabina 07:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair Enough-So Do Damage Control

 * You sound a lot nicer this way. The revert is really only an issue when it's evidentuary, and yes, I was naughty in that I was deliberately trying to get across how you're looking here - so Z_____... is a mirror of sorts. I knew another admin that hid a comment by me on his talk as well, but it is a no no and he climbed all over apologizing for why he hid it. The difference is that he made a sub-page and it was still part of record and the link was present.
 * My advice is to withdraw the RFC. As the originator, I'm pretty sure you can request a speedydelete from any admin. Admin List. Probably the quickest way to get one is to use on your talkpage.  An patroling Admin will (is supposed) to contact you in short order. (I tested as I wrote the rest-it worked) You'll need to edit the wikietiquette file, or you can let it ride.  I seriously doubt it's doing you any good though, so I'd purge it but leave a one line note that you had resolved the complaint with Sig. (You can commit murder on Wiki, so long as you sign it with a reason! Maybe you should have used that on Mel!)
 * The Admin responding to the helpme is: User talk:Commander Keane. Definitely NOT instant messaging!
 * Lastly, Send Mel an (email) apology, and put it all behind you. Say what you want, but let it die. He should have logically come back to you when you cited the dictionaries and pointed out you were talking two different languages. When either or both of you realized (realised) that you should have stood on your honor (honour) and used BOTH terms, Q.E.D.


 * I edit a lot of military and historical articles, and I'm always bumping into the commonwealth, the language issue. If you get your language in first, then you get the whole article in that mode&mdash; as was your position and understanding.  The distinction is that a good compromise is to use the parenthetical alternate so as to not tramp on someone's tender 'canalized socializations'. (I don't know if an acedemic would approve it but that term looks impressive to me! )
 * Neither of you come out of this looking great since the matter is, in the grand scheme, biz as usual, and a common issue. There are probably a dozen schemes, prolonged slug-em-plug-em no-holds barred debates in various RFCs dealing with this issue when one polity group decides that this or that should be standard. Reading through the half-dozen or so I've stumbled across makes me poor head spin. They never reach a consensus. Don't expect one.
 * But spellings not standard either... Never has been. Never will be, no matter who prints dictionaries. We create too many words, change the meaning too often for language to get atatic. The thing which rules the roost is individual publishers manuals of style and accompanying lists of preferred spelling. (See my 'small rant' on Talk:Spelling reform (just CTRL-F for fabartus... None of that has been put into the article since last MAY!)
 * Obviously defuse the situation and get rid of the stuff (links) on your talk page. You've archieved once, just do it with the rest of the top and get back to the grind. If you need a hand, ask. I had no dog in this hunt, but I will go pick a bone with Mel on his tempest inducing word choice. I honestly suspect he was just rolling along on 'auto', was patrolling newbies like yourself, and checked out your work and made the change without much thought.  Then did the same a hundred other times that night. His answers were inappropriate under that same kind of load - plus he just finished the term and is probably grading papers.  I imagine when you blew your stack he was initially mystified, but without being able to follow the rest of this miserable trail of broken links... all I can do is make that surmise.  I will say that he's a good man, and a good man to have as a friend and always willing to help.  Making up would be a good idea. He'll answer an email too. The good ones do.
 * Gotta get to bed - the wife's calling.
 * Best wishes again! Fra nkB 09:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

RFC, etc.
I think, that my suggestion of filing the RfC was a mistake, because I hadn't estimated the amount of support, administrators have here as compared to ordinary users. All following events were a consequence of that mistake. We three spent a significant amount of time on this topic, the only pluses for me (and I suspect, that for you too) was some experience in this field and that I expressed my personal view there, who and how interpreted this view, depends on one's honesty and doesn't matter for me.

I suggest that all three of us take a timeout to think of how to end this "dead lock" as quicker as we can and such way, that nobody of us would feel neither an excellent guy, nor a bad one in that discussion.

In case you agree with this, I'll post this suggestion to the third user involved on his talkpage.

BTW, some time ago I also came to the conclusion, that sometimes is better to ignore the user, if the discussion promises to be very long and pointless. I am feeling guilty, that I didn't tell that to you before we went into this discussion. Cmapm 12:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent advice. Around this place, just everyone makes this mistake at least once. You all need to put this behind you ASAP. -- FloNight  talk [[Image:Small_shamrock.png|18px]] 12:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. From now on, I ignore. I suppose Wiki is the same as anyplace else, you can't be best buddies with everyone. Your comments sort of got lost in the revert/redit/etc. shuffle above, but I do want to thank you for your time and insightful comments in dealing with this issue. Thanks. Mademoiselle Sabina 20:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, that I should be thankful to you more, than you to me. Recently, I've got lost in this large, pointless and still seeming to expand discussion. Your latest comments seem to be much more calm more. But the main problem remains: how should we stop it? Maybe we both should be ignorant, then maybe other people will become ignorant too and the discussion will stop itself? Any ideas? Cmapm 20:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sorry we have both been caught up in this dispute. I doubt it's been pleasant for anyone. :(


 * FrankB has posted a message to me on his TalkPage saying that he has contacted Mel about a compromise: unilateral apology, plus moving the attack page to the the RfC as a historical record.


 * After thinking it over, here is what I think we should do:


 * Wait to see if any of the mediation attempts with Mel are successful. If they are, and he agrees to apologize, we do likewise, close the RfC, archive the attack page as suggested, archive the discussions on our own Talk Pages and end the conflict.


 * If there is no resolution by Sunday, I can ask Commander Keane or another admin how to have the RfC closed as "Closed Unresolved" and archived, ie, we do not offer an apology but acknowledge that there is little hope of a resolution.


 * In any case, if we run into Mel's tidying again, perhaps the best stance would be to change whatever the problem is, add a comment to the talk page of the article, and let others weigh in instead of wading into another discussion ourselves. I notice that someone backed up the alternate/alternative issue on Tasha's talk page. If Mel decides to post another message on either of our personal Talk Pages, we can simply ignore it and archive it to get it off the Talk Page. My stance would be to ignore and absolutely refuse to engage in any more discussion with him in future.


 * What do you think about these ideas? I am going to direct FrankB to this entry as well, since he has been trying to mediate the conflict.


 * Thank you again for all your support and friendship here. I appreciate it immensely. Hopefully we'll be able to get back to the fine matter of gymnastics soon? :) namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 21:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Change back, say on the talk page and ignore :) Absolutely agree. So, we wait. As concerns Sunday, I'll be online only in the late evening or Monday morning. Is ti alright? In the recent time it's almost inevitable - one day I am online, one - offline. I spent the whole my online Saturday in the "Expanding Universe" of comments and replies :( FrankB deleted the RFC right now, his note there seems to be acceptable for me. If it is acceptabe for you, I think, we should stop responding to comments about the past discussion and reply to other users only in case they'll demand something, not just comment. What do you think of all these things? I hope, each of us shall return to her/his creative work soon. Thank you for your friendship. Cmapm 22:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Belated emphatic agreement... 5 hours later: And the heart and soul of my arguement to withdraw the RFC. You've asked tens of Admins and experienced editors to invest about two hours to puruse the chains of arguements and links, etc. for this change. Is that fair to the Wikiworld over what is clearly more just a clash of personal styles and wills? I'm up to nearly ten man hours on this since you're talking, but was it ever worth asking &mdash; flagging down a total stranger on some street –'Hey, buddy hold this baby until my drunken lover gets back from the bar'... Absurd? If we were billing you for our time you wouldn't think so... and while weak (yawn, need more coffee) the circumstances are analogous. We'll get Mel to recant some too, but you are holding the keys. How many strangers will wait on the corner holding the baby until the joyride ends. I can but admire your nerve, but the cost boggles the mind! Fra nkB  17:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I have already thought of and proposed my view on the way of ending the discussion (although no agreement on whether we should end it exists from all three of us so far). Please, feel free to comment it or make your own proposal. I left a similar message on Mel Etitis's page Cmapm 14:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

As follows from the message, which I've just received from the third part, at least one of us should not like to recognize neither any wrongdoing, nor do any apologies even if they were mutual ones. Therefore, I'll not recognize neither any wrongdoing from me (excepting the creation of RFC), nor will I apologize. I also discourage you from doing this.

As concerns the withdrawal of the RFC, I suspect (I'm not sure enough though), that some of comments there are made on the "service for service" basis, and I more and more realize, that I was wrong to encourage RFC's creation. I didn't come to Wiki to make thousands of friends, and perhaps due to this I have no chances in this RFC dispute. Should you approve RFC's removal? If you do, I'll withdraw it and each of us will be able to concentrate on much more important topics as long as their excellencies administrators will allow us to do creative work here in Wiki.

I think, we should ignore such users in the future. Let their actions be on their conscience.

Anyway, these are only my suggestions, for example, probably you should rely on the comment by FrankB, but keep in mind, that it was I, who originated the RFC. I'm waiting for your opinion Cmapm 16:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm on my way out the door now, so this will be quick, but here are my thoughts. I'll respond more in detail later, but here are the bare bones. I agree that perhaps if this matter is not resolved we should consider withdrawing the RFC. However, I am going to ask FrankB and CommanderKeane if perhaps there is a way to close the RfC as "unresolved"--ie, we stand by our original statement that Mel had some liability here, but recognize that the matter will not be resolved. I don't even know if this is a possibilty on Wiki but I will ask later.


 * Thanks again for all your help and support here. I really appreciate it!! Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 17:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Acting to Kill RFC as We Speak (sic)
On your last, your co-complainant is feeling stressed by all the attention the RFC has garnered. I'm in the middle of leaving a note on Tony S's page, that I'm about to kill the RFC (by replacement with a note stating such), and take any heat generated from that if necessary. If you disagree, respond by immediate email (audible) and will stop in the middle or revert it. (I won't abuse yours) If this is unsatisfactory, I don't understand your wishes, but catch up first on Here in User talk:Cmapm (See the indented Thread) before emailing.


 * OK. I give the green light to this. After the page is killed I will Archive this Talk Page and follow the advice I outlined to C. above. Thank you for stepping in here and for working to find a solution. Mademoiselle Sabina 21:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The matter is closed
Iterim Notice of Resolution Fra nkB 21:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Apologies
After cooling down a bit, I see, that I'm a total loser in the dispute, and that my disgraceful comment to FrankB "So what should I do...", which actually admitted my defeat and retirement, is the great shame. And I am very sorry for all that happened and all my actions. Cmapm 05:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't beat yourself up over this. YOu're not a loser. I'm not a loser. As we've said, nobody was innocent in this dispute; that includes the other party. Frankly I think we've taken the high road here by admitting some liability; we'll continue to take the high road by refusing to engage with ___'s little squabbles.


 * I noticed you removed your email from your comment...was there a reason why? You've been my most awesome friend on Wiki; a great support and encouragement and I do enjoy talking with you. If you ever want to chat let me know; I'll enable my email link here so you can talk with me.


 * I also noticed you removed the information about the USSR from your userpage. I hope you will put it back. Your stand in the dispute showed a great deal of loyalty and courage; I think that's quite worthy of representing the USSR. I did want to ask you about the Pioneer song--I actually wear a Soviet Little Octobrist star pin for good luck (another friend of mine from Russia assured me it would be OK to wear, and was respectful) so I thought it was cool to see the song there.


 * Let's get back to gymnastics! Let's not let what happened spoil our editing here or the sport. Onwards and upwards. I think the best of you! Namaste, Mademoiselle Sabina 08:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, many thanks for your great support, I have no idea, whether I would recover without it. For the last three days I had the highest Wikistress ever, and perhaps the highest in all my real life. Just one detail: I don't remember, when and how I went to sleep yesterday! Your words recovered me and I appreciate it very much.


 * I'll recovered my page, included e-mail here again and you can remove or edit my comment above to not remind of that discussion any more. As long as we can speak here, it is not too necessary, but who nows, may be I'll be banned one day by admins for smth. or Wikipedia will not raise enough funds to be "alive", etc. - I leave you a permanent possibility to contact me.


 * It is very nice, that you have such a talisman, I don't have it as such so far, although I do have the star and even scanned it into the Wiki. One of my secrets for the general public since my childhood is my thinking of the phrase "the honest word", I use it very very rarely, only when somebody requires (e.g. I never used it in Wiki) and when I am absolutely sure of the answer in question.


 * I'll return to gymnastics-related topics for sure soon, I am just a fan, but I can provide some competition and biographical inf.


 * Thank you very much for everything. Considering you my best friend forever. Cmapm 15:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC), updated Cmapm 18:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC) - grammar, obsolete inf.

What about you?
How are you feeling now? Are you calm already? I desire, that both of us be fine, calm and cool! :)

In case you need it some day, here is one of my emails: cmapm_foreva@mail.ru. But you should be aware, that if you send me an e-mail, your computer's IP number will become known to me, and I will be able to know your location (state, town, maybe even the street).

I will be glad to speak with you at any time and on any topic. I like a conversation with you more than with any other user in Wikipedia and will always consider you at least my best friend, regardless of what you think about me.

By the way, I wrote down and deleted from here and from my user page your AIM name. If you think, it should stay here, please, excuse me and put it back. Cmapm 18:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the words of support and friendship! One of the things that has kept me from leaving Wikipedia over this dispute is the fact that there are nice editors like you out there.


 * I'm fine now. It's OK. As they say, "karma sees all and forgets nothing." I truly believe that. Don't let this upset you any more. It's not worth it. Letting ____ unsettle you gives him a lot of power; ignoring him and refusing to engage takes it away. In truth, now that I am calmer, I think it's rather sad that he has to act the way he does.


 * One of my favorite quotes when I was younger was Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. I think it applies here. Be well, be happy and let's get back to work! I will always enjoy talking with you.

Namaste. Mademoiselle Sabina 01:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, that one of the ways to upset piranhas is to leave them alone :) I am going to reformat some "achievements" info in articles about gymnasts, created by me, before I create new articles and introduce more info into existing ones. But I wonder for a long time, what does "Namaste" mean? I suspect, that it is a French word, but have no idea of its meaning :) I've just created an AIM account (sn:cmapmussr), but I'm absolutely "green" there - never used before. Cmapm 10:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC), upd:Cmapm 16:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC) (AIM)


 * Great! I'll write down your screen name and then archive all of this, just so the emails and screen names aren't floating around on the main page. I saw that you had started updating the gymnastics articles--wonderful! It's especially helpful that you've given the Russian names for some of the gymnasts, I'd never be able to find those on my own. :) My knowledge of Russian is limited to the alphabet and a few phrases, I'm afraid. :)


 * Namaste is Hindi (a few of my close friends are Indian so they taught me a little). It's basically a greeting but also means something along the lines of "my respect to you." I like using it a lot more than other salutations. Namaste! Mademoiselle Sabina 04:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)