User talk:Makedonia/Archive1

List of Macedonians
Hi Makedonia. The reason I removed Alexander and Philip is simple, the first line of the article tells this:
 * This is a list of ethnic Macedonians. For a list of ancient Macedonians, see List of ancient Macedonians.

So you understand, there is a special list for Ancient Macedonians. As for Tsar Samuil, I have to object on historical grounds; until somebody proves that not-macedonian historians believe in a separate Macedonian ethnicity already in the Middle Ages, I will resist it being placed on the list even as disputed.--Aldux 21:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Makedonia, you've got to understand that I can't edit every article on wikipedia, I'm only a human being. I cover Macedonian (ancient and modern) articles, and for this reason I work on this list; but generally, lists bore me, and you have to understand that boredom isn't my main goal in editing wikipedia. Also in these times i'm quite absorbed with Africa and Ancient Anatolia, which take a considerable part of my wikitime.--Aldux 21:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

What is your problem with me?

 * what is this?
 * Are you normal? --Asteraki 17:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Descendant of Alexander the Great

 * What?
 * You are descendant of Alexander the Great? !!!! :)))
 * You are very fun... !


 * You are descendant of Slawe !!!
 * You are the perfect example of a modern propagandist !!! --Asteraki 17:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks.

Please read carefully the above Wikipedia policy (WP:No personal attacks).

Perfect examples of:


 * "Racial, sexual, homophobic, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor." (third example in WP:NPA)

...are this and this edits of yours.

Please avoid such insults in the future, or the insulted wikipedians will seek for other measures to help you refrain from such behavior. N i k o S il v e r  (T) @ (C) 19:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Please stop trying to spread such pseudo-science in wikipedia. Your so-called research is a potically-motivated product of the University of Skopje, which manipulates the content of a serious work in order to spread hateful propaganda of racist implications (it practically implies that being of "black" ancestry makes your inferior). I can quote from the original Spanish paper in order to point out the contradiction between the two. However, if you're so eager to study such works, then I can help you by point it out something a little bit more credible. Regards. Miskin 20:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Question
Hi, I'd like your opinion on something. As far as I know, the Macedonian Slavs, the majority ethnic group in Fyrom, are barely indistinguishable from Bulgarians - is this true? I also know that the modern Greeks live in the same place and speak the same language as the ancient Greeks, whereas the Macedonian Slavs live in the Vardar Valley, which is not where the ancient Macedonians were from, but they were from today's northern Greece (Greek Macedonia). Apparently, most scientists believe that the ancient Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect and a minority of scientists believe that they spoke a Thraco-Illyrian language (in other words, the inheritors of ancient Macedon are either the Greeks or the Albanians), whereas the Macedonian Slavs speak a Slavonic language - a Bulgarian dialect - something totally different from what the ancient Macedonians spoke. My point is, as the Macedonian Slavs live outside of where the ancient Macedonians lived and speak a different language, how can you claim their history? Logic dictates that you can claim their history as much as you can claim Japanese history!

Also, did you know that Greek is a Centum Indo-European language and is more closely related to English, French, Italian and Spanish, whereas the language of the Macedonian Slavs is a Satem Indo-European language and is more closely related to Kurdish, Persian and Gypsie? For more on this, see Centum-Satem isogloss. Please give me your opinion, I love to see Fyrom nationalism in full swing ;-) --LionKing 10:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Sdravo
sdravo Makedonia, dobrodojdov vo wikipedia. Jas go imam istiot problem so ovie grci, ne te ostavat da prajsh neshto. Ne se neviraj, oti grcite imat edno golem fantasi ;-), deka tseliot svet e grtsko. Grcite se za zhalos oti tsar nemat, istorija nemat, ama so chuzhi tsar i istorija se radvat! Grcite nemat nishto, samo edni skersheni kamenja vo Atina :-) Ostaj malku da se radvat so neshto, tia snat samite oti ne kazhvat pravinata, i tselo svet go snae grcija denes e edno golemo laga...

pozdrav - Macedonia

Reply
You're right in claiming that there's little chance of us ever convincing each other :p I should point out to you though, that despite the possibility that the Ancient Macedonians weren't Greeks (but Illyrians/Albanians as the alternative theory - the one propagated by Fyrom, goes, for reasons I have yet to comprehend, as all it proves is that the Albanian minority in Fyrom are more ethnically close to the Ancient Macedonians than the Macedonian Slavs), there is well documented evidence that at least from Byzantine times, but prior to the Slavic arrivals in the 6th - 8th centuries, Greeks were a significant, if not the majority population in the whole region of Macedonia (and beyond). Moreover, as there is zero evidence to link the Macedonian Slavs to ancient Macedon and Alexander the Great's own words confirm his Greekness, certainly put your claims in perspective. The bottom line here is that despite what occurred in the past, today Greek Macedonia is almost wholly populated by ethnic Greeks, is part of Greece, and this is the way it is going to stay (including everything located therein, eg Alexander's birth place). Fyrom does indeed claim that there is a "Macedonian" minority in northern Greece and in southwestern Bulgaria; of course these claims are baseless and in Bulgaria's case, I'm certain that the opposite could be true: already a large section of Fyrom's population are pro-Bulgarian and I hear that approximately 10% self-declared as ethnic Bulgarians and acquired Bulgarian nationality and citizenship a few years ago. These "minorities" are unusually silent though and their political parties (which may or may not have been planted by Fyrom) do exhibit a particularly poor electoral performance, despite the fact that they are the only political organizations which affirm the existence of these minorities. I can think of only two explanations: a) they are not "Macedonians", or b) they don't want to be "Macedonians" -you pick.

As for presenting all neutral points of view, I suggest you read WP:POLICY. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and only points of view which appear in reliable sources can be mentioned. Rambling nationalist rants are not included, as Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. If there are any claims in an article which you find questionable, feel free to mention it on the talk page, where it will be seen to.

You failed to address my concern above to provide evidence to substantiate your claim that the Macedonian Slavs are related (or are the descendants) of the Ancient Macedonians though. I find the double standards in your claim that the modern Greeks are unrelated to the Ancient Greeks but that the Macedonian Slavs are not only related to, but are the descendants of, the Ancient Macedonians manifestly compelling. The modern Greeks, if not direct descendants of the ancient Greeks, do live in the same place and speak the same language and there is no evidence of the ancient Greeks moving out and the modern Greeks moving in (what on earth happened to the actual ancient Greeks - where did they go?). The Macedonian Slavs have absolutely nothing in common with the Ancient Macedonians, they speak totally different languages, live in different parts of the world (the Vardar Valley vs parts of today's Greek Macedonia) and there is no evidence of the Macedonian Slavs being descendants of the ancient Macedonians - it is literally impossible in such an ethnically diverse region; some other visible connection is required - ethnicity is not based on genetics (this is the view the Nazis had). You base the connection (and the inheritence) solely on alleged genetics and a claim of unbroken descent. Fine, but where's the proof of this? How can you prove that you are the descendants of Alexander the Great & Co when there is no externally visible connection (unlike the modern vs ancient Greeks, Persians, Chinese, Japanese etc... etc...)? --LionKing 07:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

PS - do you remember the 26th February 1992, when Fyrom's first President, Kiro Gligorov, at an interview by the Foreign Information Service daily report, Eastern Europe, claimed that: ''We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.'' --LionKing 07:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

LOL
And I thought the Greeks were crazy. Give the unbridled nationalism and falsified history a rest guys. Hell, just drop the nationalism altogether :)) It really isn't doing you any favours.ps i am an idiot!!! - FrancisTyers 15:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wake up
You are dreaming, or you are being funny, or you are having a funny dream. When you wake up read history and you will find Bulgarians, Slavs, Greeks, Albanians, even Illyrians, but no Macedonians. User:Makedonija.


 * Ask VMRO-DPMN about the history of the country, they know how to respect their Bulgarian roots.


 * Albania and Kosovo are 1 nation but 2 independent countries.
 * China and Taiwan are 1 nation but 2 independent countries.
 * Greece and Cyprus are 1 nation but 2 independent countries.
 * Romania and Moldova are 1 nation but 2 independent countries.
 * Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia are 1 nation but 2 independent countries.
 * And other examples. user:Makedonija

Comment
I could not resist in making 2 comments 'bout your user page...:
 * "Η Μακεδονία ήταν είναι και θα είναι πάντα μακεδονικά, μη ελληνικά": are u sure that u can contribute in basic greek? cause the sentence is wrong; we never use plural neutral genre for a female name (as Macedonia is). I expected that u would know more about the mother tangue of Alexander the Great. LOL...
 * "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave"- Demosthenes, (Third Philippic, 31).: what a selective usage of ancient Greek literature u have! I wonder if your government has ever presented u something more than that... Here is another ancient quote: Πας μή Έλλην βάρβαρος(Everyone no Greek is a Barbarian)-(so everyone no barbarian is Greek). that's a common quote among so many ancient Greek writers. so, even Demosthenes, considered the Macedonians as no barbarians (aka considered them Greeks). There is one more: 'Η ημιμάθεια είναι χειρότερη από την αμάθεια'... --Hectorian 21:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

RE: and what is your problem?
Hmmm, what you said really made sense to me. I guess I do understand where you're coming from. I suppose I've been biased in this area and never really thought about it from a different perspective. I'm still unconvinced on the subject, but I know I shouldn't be so harsh. The Irish conflict is a very good analogy for your situation. I deleted my previous comment, and I apologize for it, too. --Sean WI 01:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

United Macedonia?
Hi, you say you want a United Macedonia. Currently, the number of Macedonians in Greece is unknown. The government in Skopje claims that there are 280,000 Macedonians in Greek Macedonia. This is a lie obviously, and the real number is more like 3,000 (that's the number of vote the Rainbow Party got in the latest elections in Greek Macedonia). Never mind though, just for fun, let's assume the Skopje government is right and there are 280,000 Macedonians in Greek Macedonia out of a population of 2,400,000 individuals. Then, when Macedonia united, the ethnic composition of this state would be 47% Greeks, 34% Macedonians, 11% Albanians and 8% Bulgarians. As you can see, ethnic Greeks would be the majority and you know what the result of that would be. Are you sure you want a United Macedonia? Telex 10:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW you are wrong. In Alexander the Great's days, Macedonia was only today's Greek Macedonia and the Bitola district in FYROM. This was extended in Ottoman times to today's perception of it (the whole of Vardar and Pirin). Telex 10:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Greece doesn't have any problems with Bulgaria. FYROM has problems with Greece, Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia though. Greetings from Blagoevgrad, Telex 11:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me clarify:
 * Greece has the naming dispute with FYROM.
 * Bulgaria has the dispute regarding the suppression of the Bulgarian identity and falsification of history by FYROM.
 * Albania protests to the oppression of the 30% Albanian population of FYROM.
 * Serbia opposes the mistreatment and suppression of Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church in the face of the illegitimate and unrecognised by the rest of the Orthodox world Macedonian Orthodox Church.
 * I pity all your problems. Not to mention that Greece sill has the right to veto the ascension of FYROM (or any other country) to the EU and in a few months Bulgaria will too. I really feel sorry for FYROM. Greetings from Macedonia - a multiethnic region in Europe with the largest population group being ethnic Greeks (largely cantered around the Greek city of Thessaloniki). Telex 12:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

На здравје!
Why would I delete something if it were accurate? I have not yet reached that level of desperation ;-) --Telex 23:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

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Eurosong
Wow, the photo of Elena is gorgeous! Isn't she great? Bomac 13:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Images again
Hi, you should know the drill by now, since you have been warned about this multiple times before, so please include the required information when you upload images! Anyway Image:07 semi pres 2006 2.jpg doesn't have a source that spesify who created the image, copyright status can not be verified bla bla bla, will be deleted in 7 days unless the source and copyright status is provided. --Sherool (talk) 14:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Rainbow Party
I took your advice into consideration, and have made Rainbow Party redirect to the already set up disambiguation page titled Rainbow party (notice the lower case 'p'). This, hopefully, shouldn't be as offensive as having the notice that was up at the top of Rainbow (political party)... perhaps just a normal disambiguation notice ? --Mr. Brown 23:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha! The disambiguation page itself is even funnyer! Sorry guys, it's just that the said political party is sexually liberated too!  N i k o S il v e r   (T) @ (C) 23:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the Rainbow Political Party support gay rights? --Telex 23:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but they are very eager to broaden their comprehension of the matter!  N i k o S il v e r   (T) @ (C) 00:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

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Re: Flags
Hi! Thanks for the compliment. I draw them using CorelDRAW, which is a vector graphics editor. It's getting easier, but a complicated flag takes still a lot of work. There are ready shapes for e.g. stars, rectangles and circles in the software, and the rest can be made by hand. If there's a bitmap flag available I may draw the vectors on a layer on top of it. I use guidelines and grids heavily to make the flags as accurate as possible, and I often dig the official measures and colors from FOTW. I export them as SVG and edit them slightly using a text editor, as CorelDRAW for some reason always uses the CMYK color space. –Mysid(t) 06:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

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Macedonian lions
You wrote: "ten eerste mr.maas, er was geen griekenland in die tijd, ten tweede macedonie was een eigen land, met eigen grenzen. en er is geen enkele bron die spreekt of zich uitbeeld over griekenland ivm leeuwen. Groeten uit Macedonia --User:Makedonia 22:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)" Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pmaas"
 * In that time there was indeed no Greece, but that country exists today. (I know Macedonia was a country, it still is, but maybe not with the same borders. Borders change. I'm from North Brabant, which was once the Duchy of Brabant, but now devided in four provinces in two countries (the Netherlands and Belgium). Things change and I have no problem with that.) To make it clear I've changed "Greece" into "present-day Greece" in the Asiatic lion article. There are sources of Asiatic lions within the borders of present-day Greece, for example look at: http://www.asiatic-lion.org/ om er één te noemen. Pmaas 17:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Two sources: (1) Guggisberg, C.A.W. 1961. Simba: The life of the Lion. Howard Timmins, Cape Town. (2) Nowell, K. and Jackson, P. (compilers and editors) (1996). Wild Cats. Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan. IUCN/SSC Cat Specialist Group. IUCN, Gland, Switzerland. Pmaas 17:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Religion?
Are you a polytheist now? A few days ago, you were an Eastern Orthodox Christian. What happened, did you experience one of those instantaneous conversion moments? --Telex 00:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Фала
Фала, за подршката за знамето, дека претеруваа, претеруваат, зедов да ги вреѓам. Навистина се смешни, но, не им попуштам па мајка Јана нека е. Инак што мислиш да им заиграме малку инает на нивните бугарски и грчки идеологии?--Vlatko 12:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

haha
Hi! What's the matter? Don't like my userbox? Todor Bozh inov   → 14:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

3RR
You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Makedonska Kamenica municipality. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. --Telex 20:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Flag manipulation
How would you explain this discrepancy?  /FunkyFly.talk _  00:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Za statiite za gradovi na makedonija
Bi te zamolil da ne gi stavash znaminjata i grbovite na opshtinite vo statiite shto se odnesuvaa za naselbi, amblemite ke gi stavame samo na opshtinskite statii. Fala.--->>><<< 12:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Se soglasuvam, no samo za grbovite.--->>>[[Image:Vlatko_sun.png|90px]]<<< 12:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

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Stan Lazaridis
I think you are a bit confused. Stan Lazaridis's family is from Macedonia (Greece) and not the Republic of Macedonia.--Greasysteve13 06:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Lazaridis is a Greek name. The Macedonian football club you speak of that the article doesn't mention is most likly refering to the Macedonia in Greece. --Greasysteve13 03:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Greasysteve13"
 * Okay I'll leave it. I'm not Greek or Macedonian. But you realise this is touchy issue and lots of Greeks that come across it will change it, dont you?--Greasysteve13 12:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries.--Greasysteve13 12:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * i thought we had an agreement. of course avg says you are right, cause he is greek :) But I thought, the Stirling Lions Football Club WAS a Macedonian Slav Football Club, and people of various ethnicities have been known to play for them. And here are some sources people have pointed out implying he is Greek: --Greasysteve13 09:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Blagoja Celeski, Bobby Despotovski, Bill Neskovski, Sasho Petrovski, Mile Sterjovski are Macedonian Slavs. If Stan Lazaridis is a Macedonian Greek he is completely different (See: Macedonia_%28Greece%29).--Greasysteve13 09:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

1. Stan Lazaridis wasn’t born in Greece as you stated, but in Perth of Australia (“Australia's squad includes wingback Stan Lazaridis, born in Perth of Greek parentage”).

Source: http://www.theworldgame.com.au/socceroos/index.php?pid=st&cid=71311

2. You assume that Lazaridis is Slav, because he played for Stirling Lions, which by the way are based in his city of birth. In that way, anyone can assume that every single player of Stirling Lions is Slav, which obviously isn’t true.

3. Lazaridis is a Pontian Greek last name. That means that Lazaridis parents have origins from Pontus.

4. 6 Lazaridis from Australia had signed the Greek petition about the Macedonian issue. Are they Slavs, too???

Mrs. Katherine Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Mrs. Sophie Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Mrs. Tina Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Mr. John Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Mr. Nick Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Mr. Stan Lazaridis, Self, employed, MELBOURNE,  Australia

Source: http://www.greece.org/Themis/Macedonia/macedonia3001-6000.html

Another 12 Lazaridis outside Australia signed the same petition:

Mr. Evie Lazaridis, Zacharias, DDO, Quebec,  Canada

Mr. Lazaros Lazaridis, Self, Norwalk, CT,  USA

Mr. Giorgos-Christos Lazaridis, Self, THESSALONIKI,  HELLAS

Mr. Savvas Lazaridis, Self, THESSALONIKI,  HELLAS

Mr. Lazaros Lazaridis, Self, Thessaloniki,  Hellas

Mr. Menelaos Lazaridis, Self, Thessaloniki,  Hellas

Mr. Georgios Lazaridis, Self, Thessaloniki,  Hellas

Mr. Lazaros Lazaridis, Syllogos Apogonon Makedonomahon "Pavlos Melas", Thessaloniki,  Hellas

Mr. Konstantinos Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Nikolaos Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Mikis Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Nikolaos Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Ioannis Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Savvas Lazaridis, Self, ANO POROIA,  HELLAS

Mr. Alexandros Lazaridis, Macedonian Pontian Association, Thessaloniki,  Greece

Mr. Nikolaos Lazaridis, Self, Thessaloniki-Macedonia,  Hellas

Mr. Panagiotis Lazaridis, Self, Thessaloniki-Macedonia,  Hellas

Mr. Giorgos Lazaridis, Self, THESSALONIKI,  HELLAS

Sources: http://www.greece.org/Themis/Macedonia/macedonia12001-15000.html

http://www.greece.org/Themis/Macedonia/macedonia15001-18000.html

http://www.greece.org/Themis/Macedonia/macedonia9001-12000.html

http://www.greece.org/Themis/Macedonia/macedonia6001-9000.html

There are even more Lazaridis, who signed other kind of Greek petitions: http://www.google.com/search?q=lazaridis+site:www.greece.org/themis&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

5. There are many Pontian Associations in Australia. That means that there are many Pontians in Australia. There is even one Pontian Association which has it’s based in Perth, the city of birth of Lazaridis (Perth Brotherhood - The Pontian Association "St.George" of Western Australia - Perth).

http://www.pontos.org.au/

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/pontian_net/links.html

6. Also, I posted 2 sources in the talk page of Stan Lazaridis, in which referred to Lazaridis as an Australian of Greek origin. They were both from Australian web sites. I can’t imagine that Lazaridis isn’t aware that every one in Australia and all over the world sees him as an Australian player of Greek origin.

Conclusion: Stan Lazaridis is of Greek origin. So stop posting bullshits.

GR_MANOS 21:26, 30 May 2006

1.	Do you think that a Greek would ever live to a country where he sees symbols like that and hear propagandistic materials about Greece? The answer is yes. A few thousand Greeks are in FYR Macedonia right now. Do you claim that they aren’t Greeks, but Slavs?? Why?? Because they live in FYR Macedonia?? What kind of logic is this?? Keep in mind that Greek companies are one of the top investors in FYR Macedonia. Do you claim that the people running these companies aren’t Greek, but Slavs?? So I guess if there is a Greek player in a club in FYR Macedonia, then he isn’t really Greek, but Slav. Give me a break. With the same logic, the Slavs players from FYR Macedonian, who play in Greek clubs aren’t Slavs, but Greeks. Do you think that someone would play in a club or live or even invest in a country, if Greeks are stealing his history and were killing their parents as you claim??? You should understand that there are people out there, who aren’t racist.

2.	Keep in mind that Lazaridis 2nd nationality is Greek and he had spent 5 years in Greek clubs in Australia (Florea Athena and West Adelaida). Question. If he isn’t Greek, why he didn’t remove his 2nd nationality?? Especially when the evil Greeks forced his grand father to change his surname or even flee from the country as you claim.

Source: http://www.footballdatabase.com/site/players/index.php?dumpPlayer=1422

“The Athena Club was founded in 1952 and represented a meeting place for the existing Greek community of Perth and for new immigrants coming from Greece to settle in Australia.”

Source: http://www.floreatathenafootballclub.com.au/content/3rd-july-2005-floreat-athena-vs-forrestfield-litis-stadium/

“From the humble beginning, the West Adelaide Soccer Club can reflect on an extraodinary fine history, claiming to be one of the glamour clubs instrumental in helping put Australian Soccer on the International map.

The club had progressed enourmously since a handful of Greek Migrants - 15 or 20 of them got together in 1936 and decided to found the Hellenic Soccer Club. The team played on Sundays at any ground they could find, often at Adelaide High School, and provided their own clothes and boots. They paid the referee out of their own pockets. In those days a "big crowd" would have been around 100 people, but then the Greek community as a whole barely exceeded a couple of thousand.

The club was was officially formed in 1945 under the name Olympic by members of the Greek community.”

Source: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:JmdgSOUcEhEJ:soccernews.com.au/showprofile.asp%3Fid%3D28+%22West+Adelaide%22+Greek&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3

3.	If he was forced to change his surname, then why didn’t he change it back to his previous surname when he went to Australia??? Why the Slavs that live today in Greece, don’t change their surname to the previous surname??? Why??

4.	You assume that he had a surname, like Lazereski or Lazar. You don’t have facts. So why you post it in first place??? You can’t support this theory without facts.

5.	Why did you change Thessaloniki’s name to Solun??? Why did you change the rest names to Slavic ones?? Did someone tell you that you did a bad thing?? No. You conquered the land and you changed their names. You aren’t the only ones that do that. Turkey for example, changed Constantinople name to Istanbul. No one grumbles about that. So stop grumbling.

6.	Every Greek surname that ends to “–idis” is Pontian. This is a fact. So it really doesn’t make sense for the Greek government to force someone to change the name of a Slav in Macedonia to a Pontian surname.

7.	As I told you in my previous posts, Lazaridis is aware that the people see him as Australian of Greek origin. Question. Why the heck doesn’t deny that?? Did you ever cross your mind that he is of Greek origin???

You have no proof. So stop claiming bullshit.

GR_MANOS 2:56, 31 May 2006

Are you getting confused with the Macedonian history or something??
Are you getting confused with the Macedonian history or something??

For example:

Quote from your user page:

“Yet no Spartan, Athenian, Theban, Epirote, was ever called non-Greek or barbarian during any of these political and war conflicts!”


 * The above quote, states that Epirotes (people that were living in Epirus) were Greeks.

Another quote from your user page:

“As Macedonia is located north of Thessaly it is obviously not a part of Greece, nor the Macedonians were Greeks, for the most northerly Greeks were already the Thessalians.”


 * The above quote states that Thessalians were the most northerly Greeks. That means that Epirotes, who were at the north-west of Thessaly, weren’t Greeks.

How can that be?? The previous quote said they were Greeks.

Apparently someone interpreted the ancient sources in his own way.

GR_MANOS 21:50, 30 May 2006

Zdravo, bas sakam da ti pomognam, eve vekje cel saat barav na internet, ama nikako da najdam nesto relevantno za Lazaridis. Veruvam deka e Makedonec stom igral za Stirling Lions, no kje mora da najdime nekoj relevanten dokaz deka e Makedonec. Dobro, zarem nema nigde nekoja izjava od nego za toa deka e Makedonec? Ako najdam nesto vednas kje se vklucam vo editiranjeto na stranata za nego. Pozdrav. MatriX 20:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

English please. GR_MANOS 01:24, 31 May 2006

3RR
You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Stan Lazaridis. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. --Telex 23:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

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 * You do realise that you've just violated the 3RR. --Telex 16:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

United Macedonia
You still haven't told me. Why do you want a United Macedonia if 47% (in fact it's probably more, that's your estimate - the Greek estimate is 52%) of the population would be Greeks. This would make Macedonians an ethnic minority - is this what you want? --Telex 21:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, you've been misinformed. According to Encyclopædia Britannica :
 * ... this kingdom [Macedon] seems to have been largely Greek-speaking, with Thracian and Illyrian admixtures.
 * Macedonia's Greek ethnic composition was overturned by the invasion of Slavic peoples into the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries AD.
 * In other words, when the Slavs (you) came, they did not find Ancient Macedonians in Macedonia, but Greeks (a neutral highly thought of source supports it). So, it's not like the Greeks expelled the Slavs last century - it's more like the Greeks took back what was theirs before the Slavs came. Think about it (what do you think of my userpage btw - it's not as good as yours... yet...). --Telex 21:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Greece doesn't deny minorities - see User:Telex/Ethnic identity in Greece to see the situation as it actually is. --Telex 22:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, don't you claim that R. Macedonia accepts its minorities. I wonder how many people over there self-identify as Bulgarians. This should give you some idea. A Bulgarian minority is yet to be recognized. --Telex 22:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Policy violation
Hi, your userpage violates WP:USER. Please read the guidelines and make the necessary changes. I point you specifically at: "What can I not have on my user page?".

I am giving you a chance to bring the page inline with policy before I delete it. Regards, - FrancisTyers 23:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for your efforts, the specific line that I would encourage you to consider is:


 * "Personal statements that could be considered polemical, such as opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia"

Please be aware that you are not being singled out or victimised here. Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. - FrancisTyers 11:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As you are a Macedonian, here are user pages which are perfectly fine: User:Bomac, User:FlavrSavr, User:MatriX. User pages which are not fine, but not quite bad enough for deletion are: User:Vlatkoto.  I appreciate your trying to work with me on this, but you still need to tone it down.


 * Regarding Greeks, userpages which are perfectly fine: User:NikoSilver, User:Avg.


 * I appreciate your effort. Seriously, look around other peoples pages and look at the guidelines, I'm confident you can come up with an appropriate user page. - FrancisTyers 14:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, if you see other users pages which you believe violate the guidelines, please let me know. - FrancisTyers 14:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The page is looking much better. Thanks, I think you'll be safe. The United Macedonia box can stay, despite the fact that personally I think that it causes more problems than it solves, for the same reason I think its ok to have "Macedonia is Greek" etc. Just we need to drop the polemics.

Btw, are you watching the Macedonian Wikipedians' notice board? I will have a think and let you know if anything else should be changed. á- FrancisTyers 15:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

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 * What do you think of my new map ? --Telex 14:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See the list of languages at User talk:NikoSilver. Furthermore, the source I copied it from said "Slavic", not "Macedonian". --Telex 14:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not certain what the point of this was, but the only independent sources I can find are : Also includes Greek, and : Also spoken in Albania, Armenia, ... Macedonia, ... USA. So there are speakers of Greek over there (probably less than 2,000, as that is the lowest language lister seperately). Whether this means that there is a Greek national identity, I don't know - it doesn't say. --Telex 15:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians, User page and united Macedonia
I’m still waiting for your comments about your belief that you are descendent of Ancient Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Makedonia#Are_you_getting_confused_with_the_Macedonian_history_or_something.3F.3F). Your theory about ancient Macedonians is full of antiphasis. For example:

Quote from your user page (by the way, these are the words of one of your forefathers, a couple of centuries ago): "our dear Macedonia, our dear homeland is calling upon you: you who are my faithful children, you who are descendants of Aristotle and Alexander the Great, you in whose veins Macedonian blood flows"

From the above we understand that Aristotle is Macedonian and not Greek.

Quote from one of your links:

“When he was 13, Philip hired the Greek philosopher Aristotle to be Alexander’s personal tutor.”

Source: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html

This quote states that Aristotle is Greek.

What is Aristotle after all???

Quote from your web site and from one of your links (www.historyofmacedonia.org):

"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region" ,Strabo[11.14.12].

Thessalians live in the most northerly region.

Source: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/strabo.html

But once again, your own links disagree with each other. It should be mentioned that this is a copy paste from the same web site, too!!!

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/images/BEFORE_PHILIP.gif

From this map, you can see that there are Greeks northern than Thessaly. The most famous city of all is Byzantium at the north east of Thessaly. This is another antiphasis. Keep in mind that the above quote and the map are included in the same web site (www.historyofmacedonia.org)

And finally the most stupid statement that I have ever read at the same web site (www.historyofmacedonia.org):

“Moreover, the insistence that Alexander is a Greek, and descendant from Greeks, rubs against the spirit of Herodotus 7.130, who speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission”

Source: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/herodotus.html

In this quote, Eugene Borza, who by the way is the 1st reference in the article of Ancient Macedonians (!!!) claims that Thessalians were the first Greeks to come under Persian submission.Question. What happened to the Greeks living in Asia Minor?? When were they conquered?. From the ancient sources and with our common sense, we can understand that obviously the Persians conquered 1st the Greeks living near by and not the Greeks that were in the other side of Aegean. It’s a common sense. If you don’t believe me, see this map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Persian_empire_490bc.gif) or google it.

So how the heck can you believe these stupid things??? It’s really bad propaganda with no sense at all.

Furthermore I want to emphasize that if Macedonia is united, we will have the creation of a 3rd Greek state, after Greece and Cyprus. The reason is obvious:

Macedonia Region: 5 million people

Aegean Macedonia: 2.625 million people (52.5%)

Vardar Macedonia: 2.034 million people (40.68%)

Pirin Macedonia: 0.341 million people (6.82%)

Neutral POV:

Greece: 2.4 – 2.5 million (48%-50%)

FYR Macedonia: 1.3 million (26%)

Albania: 0.6 million (12%)

Bulgaria: 0.3 million (6%)

According to FYR Macedonia POV:

Greece: 2.1-2.3 million (42-46%)

FYR Macedonia: 1.5-1.6 million (30-32%)

Albania: 0.6 million (12%)

Bulgaria: 0.3 million (6%)

Who do you think is going to win the elections??? Just guess. In order to win the elections, your compatriot in Greece must be more than 600,000!!! Do you claim that more than the 1/4 in the Greek area of Macedonia are in fact Slavs???

Of course there is no way that Macedonia will be united. They (Bulgarians, Albanians and you) don’t want a united Macedonia. They want a Macedonia under their own rule. The same thing happened in the ancient times, for example in Greece, China and Egypt. So what is the point of dreaming unification, when such a thing won’t happen? In the above examples (Greece, China and Egypt) the rule of one tribe over the other, happened with wars and not with democracy (voting system). Obviously in a war situation, Greece is going to win.

Conclusion: If nowadays Macedonia is united, Macedonia will be another Greek state.

Final Conclusions:

1.	The quote of interpretation of the ancient sources in your user page is just a stupid propaganda.

2.	United Macedonia means the creation of a 3rd Greek state.

Questions:

1.	Why do you believe bad written propaganda?

2.	Do you support the unification of Macedonia or the unification of Macedonia under your rule??

GR_MANOS 20:52, 1 June 2006

Hmmm… I see that you have removed almost all of them from your user page, but you still have propagandistic material.

GR_MANOS 20:57, 1 June 2006

Quote from your user page:

“Ahh, Our good old friend Demosthenes:

"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, (Third Philippic, 31).

The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip’s conquest of Greece.”

1.	Demosthenes said that in his 3rd Philippic, 10 years after the first. Question. Why he didn’t say that Philip is not Greek, in the previous Philippics???

2.	We know from ancient sources that Philip II won 3 times (356, 352 and 348 BC) in the Olympic Games. Only Greek men were allowed to participate in the Olympic Games. Why didn’t he say anything about it in the 1st Philippic (351 BC) or in the latter philippics (2nd in 344 BC and 3rd 341 BC)??

3.	The Kingdom of Macedonia participated in the Delphi council. Only Greek states were allowed to participate in this council. Why Demosthenes didn’t say anything about it either???

4.	Quote from http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/demosthenes.html:

“a. If the Macedonians were Greeks but still called barbarians and nor related to the Greeks, why is then no other Greek tribe called barbarians and nor related to the Greeks in "rhetorical context"? There were many examples when that could have happened, it’s enough to point to the long Peloponesian War, or any of the many constant wars between the Greek states. Yet no Spartan, Athenian, Theban, Epirote, was ever called non-Greek or barbarian during any of these political and war conflicts! Not ONCE!

b.     We know for a fact that the ancient Greeks also called the Persians barbarians. Are we suppose to say now, based on the modern Greek "logic", that the Persians were too a Greek tribe, but they were called non-Greeks only in "rhetorical context"?“

I don’t know if there is an ancient source in which a Greek calls another Greek barbarian. If he had wanted to insult him orally he would have done so, but we know from a text by Plato that Protagoras said once that the language of Greeks in Lesbos was a barbarian language. "…Λεσβίος ων και εν φωνή βαρβάρω τεθραμμένος." (He ridicules Pittakus that he didn’t know the exact etymology of the words because he was from Lesbos and spoke a barbarian language (Protagoras, 341)). But we know that Pittakus was one of the Seven Sages of Greece. That means that Pittakus was Greek and Protagoras just ridicules him. Are we going now to claim that the language Greeks of Lesbos spoke isn’t Greek??? Of course not. Also keep in mind that the word barbarian doesn’t mean foreign in ancient Greek. Besides that keep in mind that in the above quote, Epirotes are described as Greek and in the maps and in other articles of the same web site, Epirotes aren’t described as Greeks, but as non-Greeks. So it’s obvious that the author isn’t reliable. Look my previous posts in order to understand what I’m talking about.

From the above, you can easily understand that Demosthenes wanted to insult Philip II, because he disagreed with his policy. It’s just two lines out of 3 whole Philippics. So it’s easily to understand that he said it, just to insult him. Why didn’t he say anything about Philips participation to Olympic Games or the membership of Kingdom of Macedonia in Delphi council??? Why didn’t he expand this statement if he disputed the ethnicity of Philip??? From the participation of Philip in Olympics we know for sure that he was considered Greek as the rest Macedonians (the sources mention other Macedonians winners in the Olympic games, too), because only Greeks were allowed in the Olympics.

Conclusion: Demosthenes said that in order to insult Philip II.

Quote from your user page:

"In 2001 it was researched by a scientific team from Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, at the Universidad Complutense in Madrid, Spain, that the ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks were two separate and distinct nations."

I’m not even going to take the pains to analyze why the genetic research is just plain propaganda. I’ll just ask you 2 things.

1.	How the heck they manage to find genes of ancient Greeks???

2.	Did they compare the genes of modern Greeks with the modern Slavs and they come to this conclusion??? Keep in mind that Slavs came to the area of Macedonia two millenniums after the Greeks. ;)

Links

I’m not going to take the pains to look over all the links, but judging from the 1st link (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/index.html) I guess that the rest links are full of propaganda (look above for the bad written propaganda of http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/index.html).

PS: Are you really a polytheist??

GR_MANOS 22:25, 1 June 2006