User talk:Maky/Archive 1

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By the way, I had some questions about your edits to the ring-tailed lemur article. I left those on the ring-tailed lemur talk page.Rlendog (talk) 15:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Woolly Lemurs
I just added articles on 3 recently identifies species of woolly lemur. Since your interest is in lemurs I figured I would let you know, since I have little information on these and you might have more info to add.Rlendog (talk) 22:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for keeping me posted! Recent discoveries and new information are hard for me to come by since I'm not affiliated with a 4-year university.  (I have no access to most peer-reviewed journals.)  As you find new stuff, please keep me in the loop... as you just did.  :-)  Visionholder (talk) 07:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Question about uploading
Can someone please explain to me how I should go about properly uploading images, audio, and video and then linking them into a page. When I first started, I'd use the "Upload file" option from the toolbox on the left-hand side of the screen, but I'm getting the impression that I should upload to the Wikimedia Commons instead. If that's correct, then do I reference the images the same when editing a page, and how do I go about moving the existing media over to the Commons? I'm about to upload more audio and possibly some images within the near future, so I'd like to know how to do things "correctly."


 * Hi, if you upload to Commons then the media can be used for all Wikimedia projects, not just the English Wikipedia. They do have slightly different rules regarding licensing so you will need to look into that. Images from Commons can be used exactly the same way as if they were uploaded here. To move images, upload them to Commons using the same file name if possible, and then tag the copy here with . After a few days the local version will be deleted. Kevin (talk) 04:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The first round of uploading too nearly 3 hours due to the large number of small audio files. Editing the existing ones will probably take nearly as long.  Do administrators have tools to do this faster? Visionholder (talk) 05:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately no. What type of audio files are they? Kevin (talk) 05:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They are *.ogg files for the page Calls of the Ring-tailed Lemur. There's not too many -- only about 60 files.  It's just that Wiki takes a few seconds to respond to each page request, especially the upload page.  It also doesn't help that there are multiple hops in upload process.  I think my total upload time per file was 1-2 minutes.  It gets tedious and I have to take short breaks to maintain sanity.  Just too many clicks, but I'll get it done 'cause it needs to be done.  I'll just wait 'til I get my 2nd OTRS link so I can do those edits and everything else all at once. Visionholder (talk) 05:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to upload the *.ogg files to Commons (discussed above), but I'm not 100% certain about the category options. So far I've uploaded 3 files: Lemur_catta--moan1.ogg, Lemur_catta--moan2.ogg, Lemur_catta--click_series_&_yaps.ogg. For the category, I used "Lemur catta" (which exists) and "Lemur catta vocalizations" (which does not exist). Is that right? Do I need to create the category page (and if so, how?), or should I just put these files in the category "Lemur catta" only? There are nearly 60 files coming, so it won't be a small category. Furthermore, there are an undetermined number of calls that I'll be uploading for numerous lemur species in the near future, so what I do here will likely be repeated for other species. Please advise. Visionholder (talk) 21:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * See Commons. We are Wikipedia. StewieGriffin!  &bull; Talk Sign Listen 21:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried. I used the  option to ask a question, but got back: "This template has been deprecated." It pointed me on to some help pages that didn't answer my question.  Oh well....  I'll either try to figure it out another day or let someone else fix it.  Thanks anyway.  Visionholder (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have created the Commons category here. If you click a redlinked category (here or on Commons) it takes you to the edit page to created the category. In this case I didn't add any text other than the category name, figuring that you would do that later. Kevin (talk) 23:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Seems simple enough.  However, do you feel that new category is a good idea, or should the audio files just be listed under "Lemur catta," since it claims to contain "media" for the species?  Visionholder (talk) 03:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's in both categories, so I think it is fine. No doubt someone there will fix it if they disagree. Kevin (talk) 03:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ring-tailed Lemur
Hi. I responded to your question on my talk page. In short, I think the first step to getting the article to Featured Article status is to get it to Good Article status. In my opinion the article should be pretty close already, but I have little experience in that regard. In any case, I hope the article does get to GA and then to FA, and I'll do whatever I can to help make that happen. Rlendog (talk) 02:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of "Toilet-claw"
A page you created, Toilet-claw, has been tagged for deletion, as it meets one or more of the criteria for speedy deletion; specifically, it is nonsense or gibberish.

You are welcome to contribute content which complies with our content policies and any applicable inclusion guidelines. However, please do not simply re-create the page with the same content. You may also wish to read our introduction to editing and guide to writing your first article.

Thank you.  Josh3580 user / talk / hist 05:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What happened here? How can toilet-claw be nonsense or gibberish?  Do we need a deletion review here?  I'm not sure how to do that though. Rlendog (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I found the page describing how to do a deletion review on WP:DELREV. I'd do it but it wouldn't carry much weight from me given that I never saw the article.  It does say to try to discuss with the deleting admin first, so we'll see what response you get to your comment to User:Josh3580. Rlendog (talk) 18:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * NawlinWiki was the admin who deleted it, I've asked asked him to review that decision. I'm sure it was tagged and deleted based on that rather absurd name. Cheers, Amalthea Talk 18:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Amalthea is correct. I've restored the article, and I apologize for the error.  NawlinWiki (talk) 18:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I see how that could happen. It just so happens that in this case "toilet" refers to "grooming", not the bathroom appliance. Rlendog (talk) 02:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Red Ruffed Lemur
There were some recent major edits to the Red Ruffed Lemur article that you may want to take a look at. At first glance the changes seem ok to me. Rlendog (talk) 17:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I wasn't happy that the person did not cite sources and deleted information without offering better details, though I'm glad someone replaced some of it. Otherwise, the information looks generally correct.  Ultimately, it may not matter, though.  Before I diverged to concentrate on Lemur catta again, I was in the process of revving up to do a major re-write of the Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur.  Given the similarities between that species and the Red Ruffed Lemur, both re-writes may occur close together.  However, I'd like your opinion on how to proceed, given not only their similarities, but also the presence of the Varecia page and the need for pages for the individual subspecies of variegata.  I'm not sure how to divide the information, and whether or not I should duplicate details.  Your advice would be greatly appreciated.  Visionholder (talk) 23:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure the best way to handle this myself. But what I would not be too concerned about repeating some information between Varecia and the individual species articles, especially if it is important general information.  For these species, since there is a good chance of people going directly to the individual species article or going to "ruffed lemur", and since there are quite a few differences between the species, I would hope the individual species articles would be quite complete on their own.  I'd be less concerned about filling out the subspecies articles.  In my opinion they can be "stubs" or short "starts" just describing the information (i.e., appearance, range) that is unique to the subspecies, since the reader can always click to the species article for more info. Rlendog (talk) 23:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Reply
Hi, Visionholder, welcome to wikipedia. I respoonse to your question, I think Ring-tailed lemur is fairly far from FAC, but you could submit it af WP:FAT, where I am a member. Cheers, &mdash; §unday   b  19:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have posted the proposal as you suggested. Thank you!  As for my other question regarding redundant information for the ruffed lemur pages, do you have any suggestions?  Again, the two species have very few differences, so I'm not sure how to distribute the information between the article for the genus and the articles for the species. - Visionholder (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Lemur Barnstar
By the way, I responded to your note on my talk page. I'd be happy to join the FA effort. Rlendog (talk) 02:43, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Help Me Question
helpme

I am in the process of creating major re-writes of the Ruffed lemur (genus), Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur (species), and Red Ruffed Lemur (species) pages. The two species of ruffed lemur have few differences, and since most people are likely to search on "ruffed lemur" rather than a specific species, it looks like the genus page will contain most of the information about these species. However, I'm confused about how much information to put on the individual species pages, especially the Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur, which has 3 subspecies. (There is information about differences in range, conservation status, and looks for the subspecies, but that's about it. So do I create separate pages for the subspecies?)  How much information should I repeat on the species page without being too redundant?

This is an important question for me since I am also planning to re-write the Brown lemur pages, which also have many simiilar species that only recently were granted full species status. Again, the information will be redundant for species and shared by the genus. - Visionholder (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If there is not that much information on the subspecies you might want to put all the information in the species page. Then create redirect pages for the subspecies that point back to the species page. i hope that helps. Gtstricky Talk or C 18:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What about the genus vs. species question? Honestly, that's the biggest question.  (But thanks for clarrifying the subspecies portion.)  - Visionholder (talk) 18:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe most genus pages give very brief summaries and then list the species (with links) but you should probably check out some examples to see how they are done. Let me see if I can find some. Gtstricky Talk or C 18:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Aster (genus) seems to be a good example to follow. However I am no expert in this. Gtstricky Talk or C 19:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The talk page over at WP:WikiProject Primates seems to be a good place to find more guidance. Cheers. Gtstricky Talk or C 19:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

RE:Source for Ring-tailed Lemur
See http://www.duke.edu/web/mind/level2/faculty/liz/publications.html, which has full text PDFs. Budding Journalist 03:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Environment
Welcome to the project. If you need help, just grab me. OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Lemur Conservation Foundation
A tag has been placed on Lemur Conservation Foundation requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a company or corporation, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for companies and corporations.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. mboverload @ 05:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know why this keeps happening to you... I assume the article is safe for now. If you need any assistance saving it, let me know. Rlendog (talk) 17:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. What can we say?  There's just a bunch of trigger-happy admins with toys that makes this kind of stuff too easy.  (Apparently they don't have to think about what they're doing any more.)  Ironically, the Duke Lemur Center has no references at all, and the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) references its own website.  No comments about those....  - Visionholder (talk) 17:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

IUCN 2008
The IUCN link for the Common Brown Lemur is now generating an error - "The page you were looking for doesn't exist." when I click on the "Eulemur fulvus" link. Do you know what code IUCN is now using for this species? Right now the Wikipedia article uses 8200. Rlendog (talk) 02:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently the IUCN changed Eulemur fulvus from 8200 to 8207. I'll fix the refernece in a moment.  (Sorry... didn't get around to updating all the lemur species the other day, and then learned someone had an automated way of doing it.  Aside from this fix, I'm going to lay off the IUCN stuff for a bit.)  - Visionholder (talk) 03:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

DYK question
Great job on ruffed lemur! BTW, I posted a capitalization question here. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't get here in time. Looks like you solved the problem.  Thanks for the DYK.  - Visionholder (talk) 18:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Lemurs
Hi Visionholder: You've written an excellent article on ruffed lemurs! I'm headed to Madagascar for the first time next month, so read it with interest—I have a lot to learn before I go. I'll try to get some "in the wild" pictures of whatever species I can find there, and will let you know when I've had a chance to upload them. MeegsC | Talk 20:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for both the compliment and the offer! I would greatly appreciate hi-resolution pictures of any lemur species, particular showing behavior.  I'm also interested in pictures that can be used at the top of the species' page.  Before you leave, though, I recommend reading Alison Jolly's book, "Lords and Lemurs".  If you don't know much about the country's history, it may prove very valuable.
 * I'm also hoping to go to Madagascar soon. I've been accepted to volunteer for Azafady in October 2009, but first need to raise about $4,000 for their cause.  Hopefully I can do it!  - Visionholder (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Ruffed Lemur
Oustanding job! I nominated the article for a DYK. Rlendog (talk) 13:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - Visionholder (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just saw this was promoted to GA. Congratulations and well deserved!  By the way, how can I assist with the Ring-tailed Lemur FA review? Rlendog (talk) 01:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. At this point, feedback over the last 1.5 days has slowed to a crawl.  I'm assuming that's a good thing.  The only thing that I can think of that's needed is a serious copyedit from top to bottom.  I've already done that at the amateur level, so I think we just need a pro to come in and help out. ... Actually, now that I think about it, I need to find out if there are any cultural references to the Ring-tailed Lemur in Malagasy culture.  I do not have access to the type of academic library that would yield those answers.  Do you?
 * Btw, I'm about to post some comments regarding the Primate FAC. I'll post some quick comments on your talk page in a moment before I post the FAC comments.  Please get back to me soon, if possible.  - Visionholder (talk) 01:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Slow feedback is probably a good thing, although there may be some ebb and flow. The GAC for Primate and FLC for List of New York Mets Opening Day starting pitchers were like that.  But I think it is a great article, so I don't think it will have too much trouble.  As for Malagasy culture, I probably have access to most of the same lemur books you probably do (Garbutt, Mittermeier).  I can check for cultural references but I don't remember any.  I'll also check some of my other books (Sussman and a couple of general primate books) but I'm not too optimistic.  I also tried a Google search and struck out - i got a bunch of hits on travel sites that mentioned both Malagasy culture and ring-tailed lemurs, but not together.  But do you think ring-tailed lemurs specifically played an important role in Malagasy culture?  I mean to us it is a charismatic species.  But to a native, especially historically, would it be any more than just one of many lemur species that (sadly) were used more for food than anything of a more cultural significance?  And, going back many years in history, would many Madagascar natives have even been very aware of the ring-tailed lemur, given its relatively restricted range? I wonder. Rlendog (talk) 02:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Until I travel to Madagascar (next year) or meet someone who knows a lot about the culture, I'm just as clueless as you are. You've voiced pretty much all of my thoughts on the topic.  I have a few contacts I could call on regarding this, but they have typically been very slow to reply... if they reply at all.  I just don't want that one point to hold up the FA review.  - Visionholder (talk) 02:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It probably won't hold things up. I think you just need to respond the comment that you checked all your sources and did web searches and there was nothing particular on ring-tailed lemurs in Malagasy culture.  You can even note why it may make sense that the ring-tailed lemur wouldn't have played a particularly special role in traditional Malagasy culture.  One thought I just had was to check the Madagascar and Malagasy culture articles for references to ring-tailed lemurs, but there were none.  The most promising thing I found was in Malagasy mythology there is a reference to the Indri - which doesn't really help here - but also a list of references.  If you have access to any of those (I do not, although I can see if I cheat through Amazon's "look inside" feature on any of them or if any are on Google Books) there might be some references to ring-tailed lemurs that could be used. Rlendog (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestions. I may look into it tomorrow.  As for my comments for the Primate FAC, I should be posting those shortly, if you care to look over them.  Again, I'm more than willing to help out.  Best wishes,  - Visionholder (talk) 03:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The best I could find from the Malagasy mythology references wasn't much. Pp. 325-326 of "The Eighth Continent: Life, Death and Discovery in the Lost World of Madagascar" talks about a 1992 cartoon involving a ring-tailed lemur and a Malagasy peasant.  Hardly seems worthy of inclusion in the article.  But, if you can show that you did a thorough search for references to ring-tailed lemurs in Malagasy culture and came up empty, then that should not hold up the FAC.  After all, anything in the article needs to be notable and use verifiable sources.  If there are no verifiable sources of something, then it probably is not notable, and should not be in the article. Rlendog (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you did all of this research, do you mind posting your findings and sentiments? The comment is closer to the middle of the review.  - Visionholder (talk) 03:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure. When I get home tohight I'll just check a few more books in case they mention something and I'll comment accordingly. Iwas thinking that it is at least theoretically possible that a book like "Primates in Perspective" may say something. Rlendog (talk) 13:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Anatomy Gallery
I didn't see your question until late last night, but I see you decided to use the gallery. In my opinion, that's fine. I would just note that the FAC reviewers generally don't like galleries. In this case it makes sense (and even has a title other than "gallery" that fits it to the article content), but there still may be pushback. If there is, I was thinking that the toothcomb picture looks great, and could easily be fit as a thumb photo on the right side of the anatomy section. Maybe the toilet claw can be sqeezed in on its own too, but that may be pushing it. I was thinking that maybe one of the scecnt gland photos can go with the Olifactory Communication section, but you already have a better photo that takes up all the available photo space. Maybe some of the photos could be moved to the Conservation section, if necessary, since those are photo-less, but they don't have a direct connection to that text. But, anyway, I think it's fine where it is and if there is pushback in the FAC review, we can figure out the best approach to resolve it then. Rlendog (talk) 17:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback. :-)   Visionholder (talk) 18:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Primate Article
With respect to your comments on the Primate article, I think you are actually the best person to address most of them. After all, you are one of the most currently active members of the Primate WikiProject, and you probably know more about lemurs (the focus of most of your comments) than anyone here. Why don't you take a crack at the changes? Just make sure the changes are either supported by existing references, or you have a reliable source for the new information. The one item I think I disagree with is the last - I think the wording that "Primates can be vectors for certain diseases" seems fine. Even if some primates may not be, it doesn't say "All primates can...", and an article like this necessarily needs to deal in generalities, and it be unwieldy to address all the exceptions to every generalization. Rlendog (talk) 18:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In that case, I will get involved. As for your explanation on the last point, I see where you're coming from.  I had already sent an email to the vets at the Duke Lemur Center, so if I don't hear back soon, I'll strike the comment.  However, if there is a simple sentence that could be added about the uncertainty of transmission between humans and strepsirhines with a good citation, I may consider adding it.  We'll see.
 * The only reason I'm taking issues with these generalizations is because they haunt me in the field (at zoos). I've met many zookeepers who believe lemurs have a poor sense of smell because they are primates (and because it said so in their primate book) and others who are scared to death of zoonotic transmission from lemurs, again, because they're primates.  I respect the fact that Primates has to be a general article, but I don't feel it would be too distracting to make a couple important distinctions here and there.  But then again, that's a decision for the entire community, not just me.  If everyone else agrees that I'm being too picky, then my suggestions can be ignored and I'll just have to be certain to cover them carefully in the Strepsirrhini and Lemur articles as appropriate.  - Visionholder (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just heard back from Duke. The sentence will remain as stated presently in the article.  I will post their reply on the FAC for everyone to read.  - Visionholder (talk) 20:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Congrats!

 * Hmm. Seems like Marskell, SS, and everyone else from the FAC got the iffy prose pretty much. If you'll look, I made some changes in the lead but otherwise I felt comfortable leaving it there. Hint: I noticed this in your other articles, but I made the change already in R-T lemur. Try using endemic when saying "it is only found on the island of Madagascar." Look at the RTL page to see how I changed it. Great work, I look forward to collaboration someday! &mdash;Ceran ♦(Sing) (It's snowing in NJ already!) 22:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I appreciate the help.  Maybe I'll submit Ruffed Lemur to the FA-Team very soon.  - Visionholder (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ring-tailed Lemur FA
Excellent job!!!! Our first top-importance primate article. Rlendog (talk) 00:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You should also be eligible for Triple Crown recognition Rlendog (talk) 00:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I'll try to keep helping with Primate.  I've been a little busy and intimidated by the amount of research I feel I may need to do... especially with all the other re-writes I have on my plate.
 * As for the Triple Crown, how is that awarded? - Visionholder (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I found it. I'll nominate shortly.  Thanks!  Btw, this was a nice surpise to come home from work and discover.  - Visionholder (talk) 04:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ring-tailed Lemur FA
Congratulations and well deserved! One of the best I've read in a long time!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! - Visionholder (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar
Thanks again for the Barnstar. I am really touched. Ironically, I was about to ask you for some help, following up on some advice you gave me a couple of months ago. Based on your asssistance, I figured out how to make range maps for the White-headed Capuchin and Mantled Howler on MS Paint. Unfortunately, the best maps I found at the time to start with were world maps. So when the maps are incorporated into the little taxobox, the ranges are almost invisible, since Central America is so skinny. I have since found maps of the Americas, but I don't think that would help much since the maps would still be very compressed. I also found a map of Central America, but what I actually need is just Central America plus Colombia and Ecuador. Do you know how to remove the rest of the world except Central America, Colombia and Ecuador from these maps? I think the other Central American monkeys I plan to work on should be okay, since Geoffroy's Spider Monkey and Central American Squirrel Monkey both have ranges entirely within Central America (and with the latter I may be able to use just a Costa Rica map if it shows a little bit of Panama. Thanks for your help. Rlendog (talk) 02:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If only you knew how ironic your question is right now. I'm dealing with the same issue for the subspecies of Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur (due to their tiny, tiny ranges), and have been thinking about this topic (in general) for the past few hours.  In your case, you could crop the hi-resolution image down to whatever portion you want.  Another more advanced option might be to use multiple maps and do something like this: [[Image:LocationCostaRica.svg|thumb|left|Note the world view with the small box showing where the enlarged view comes from]]
 * Basically, this involves a bunch of cropping, pasting, drawing squares and maybe screen shots of larger images being displayed at lower resolutions (if you don't have anything advanced like Photoshop). I don't think Paint or any of the software that comes with Windows offers cropping ability, if I remember correctly, but you could always download free software, like Inkscape, or look over other options at the Graphics tutorial.  If you need additional details or suggestions, just ask.
 * Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if I should re-create my maps to make them look like the one above... - Visionholder (talk) 02:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think your Madagascar maps are fine the way they are.  You also confirmed that I'm not crazy - I thought I tried everything in Paint to crop that map and couldn't figure anything out.  So now I know why - Paint doesn't have the facility.  I have to see what my wife has on her computer for graphics.  I usually edit from my laptop from work, and they restrict my ability to download software. Rlendog (talk) 03:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If I were faster at it, I'd offer to do help you out. But my guess is that you're like me and will have lots of maps to work with.  ...  If it's just a few and if you can tell me exactly how you want something cropped, you can always email me the files.  I've enabled the "email this user" feature on my account.  Or to email me more directly so you can attach files, just send it to my Gmail account.  The user name is the same.  - Visionholder (talk) 03:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been playing with Inkscape for the last few hours, and though I'm still struggling to get the hang of it, I'd have to say that this is probably the way to go. Once you learn to work with SVG files, you can do amazing things.  Personally, I think I'm done with Photoshop for a while (except for photo editting).  In fact, once I figure out the last few tricks, I hope to create a SVG of a template that I can use for all lemur range maps (aside from lemurs with incredibly small ranges).  If you can install it on another computer, I highly recommend it.  I might be able to even give you some pointers... or at least direct you to the tutorial.  –Visionholder (talk) 08:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can't install Inkscape or figure out how to use it, let me know. Aside from one small detail, I have learned how to take existing SVG files and create even better range maps than I was able to in MS Paint.  Anyway, SVG really seems like the way to go, even if Microsoft is dragging its feet with support of IE.  You can look at a sample of my first range map on the Ring-tailed Lemur page.  If you need my help in creating others, let me know.  I probably can't turn out dozens of these maps within a short period of time, but it might help if I create template maps for the regions you're working in, such as the template I'm now using for lemur maps: Image:Madagascar_range_map_template.svg. –Visionholder (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Fundraising
Hi and apologies for the delay before acknowledging your message. Once you know how you're going to proceed with the fundraising, let me know (e.g. point me to a message on your user page?) and I'll respond accordingly. The idea of a minimum starting amount W followed by X/Y/Z dollars bonus per DYK/GA/FA awarded (where Z>Y>X) sounds reasonable -- what sort of amounts for W and X/Y/Z do you think would be realistic? Sardanaphalus (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm still trying to guage how many article I may re-write. I've been working on the hardest articles so far: Ring-tailed Lemur, Ruffed Lemur, Black-and-White Ruffed Lemur (just started), Red Ruffed Lemur (coming next), and (very soon) Lemur.  Those have the most information available to sort through, so re-writes are painfully slow.  I'm really not sure what to expect when I get to the lesser-known lemurs.  There may be so little information that re-writes may happen very rapidly, but GAs and FAs may be nearly impossible.  That's why I like the idea of mandatory, minimum (up-front) and a optional maximum donations.  Unlike a real-life marathon, I don't know how far I can run with this in a year's time.  On the plus side, the long-term nature of this fundraiser may give people the chance to set aside money every month, causing less financial strain than short-term fundraisers.
 * Anyway, I've hit a snag with the Wikimedia Foundation which now requires me to snail-mail their main office. (So much for a quick email reply.)  I hope to send that letter out tomorrow.  Once I receive word from them, assuming they don't mind, I'll start immediately.  I'll be sure to notify you!  Thanks again!  –Visionholder (talk) 17:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Love your additions!
Hello! I would've contacted you via e-mail but I don't know how to do it, if it's even possible. I've been browsing the site for lemur articles for ages and I recently noticed some of the things you've added. You've really made some fantastic additions- you can't imagine how much I appreciate someone working so hard to weed out all the lemur misinformation floating around on Wiki! I'm a fellow lemur enthusiast, and I'm a person of information. One of my biggest pet peeves is seeing false information floating around to mislead people- Especially when it's on the subject of lemurs! Although I've been trying to expand a bit on certain lemur articles (purely to get all the misinformation off of them), I've had limited resources for some things and really I don't know much at this point. As such, I'm thrilled to see someone as lemur-wise as you revising these pages! Meanwhile I can barely figure out how to make a link in an article (I'm completely new to Wikipedia editing).

I was especially impressed by your additions to the L. catta page, namely the photographs of their distinctive anatomical features. I'd tried for the longest time to take clear photos of those features with the lemurs I worked with, unfortunately my camera wasn't fit for the job and the animals happened to be awake at the time of my attempts so I could never get a shot of the toothcomb. They're amazing photos and they'll help people out a lot in understanding these traits and in realizing how unique and beautiful lemurs are!

Thanks again for all you've done and, if you're ever in the mood to discuss anything lemur-related, I'm always in the mood to talk! Lemurness (talk) 03:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your compliments! Regretfully, I haven't done much with the lemur pages in a while.  I've been tied down in the Primate FAC (Feature Article Candidate review), I've been struggling with how to create pages with nearly identical content (Ruffed lemur vs. Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur vs. Red Ruffed Lemur), and have been a little burnt out lately.  I plan to resume my lemur work soon.  As you might have seen on my user page, my goal is to upgrade nearly every lemur article to Good Article (GA) or Feature Article (FA), but that will take a long time.  Unfortunately, I like to write articles in near FA-quality when I re-write them, which means it can take me weeks to re-write and perfect an article.  If you beat me to a lemur article (such as Sanford's Brown Lemur), then good job.  Also, don't be upset if I re-word the article significantly in an attempt to prepare it for a GA review.  If you need help learning your way around Wiki, don't be afraid to ask.  As for emailing me, there is a link on the left under "toolbox".
 * Where did you work with lemurs? I'm hoping to get a job working with them, but I'm not sure if I feel like camping out these elusive jobs.  Instead, I'm now hoping to work in Madagascar instead, doing in situ conservation. –Visionholder (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

RfD nomination of Lemur catta spur and antebrachial gland.jpg
I have nominated for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you.  MBisanz  talk 04:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ring-tailed lemur
You know there used to be an image that was an FP for ring-tailed lemur... &mdash;Ceran (dream / discover ) 23:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I know it was a FP. What about it? –Visionholder (talk) 04:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just letting you know. Anyway, now it's your turn to help. I'm on the bottom of the GA consideration with 1968 Illinois earthquake, but I need to leaf through a ton of books and scholarly sources on the subject. Would you mind trying to copy edit it for me? &mdash;Ceran (dream / <font color="#000000">discover ) 23:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can try. I'm just a novice copyeditor, though.  I'm also a little busy today, but I may have time this afternoon or tomorrow.  I'll swing by soon.  –Visionholder (talk) 16:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * thanks for your enthusiasm. For some reason, that's not very common within Wikipedia editors. &mdash;<font color="#990000">Ceran  ♦ (<font color="#990000">talk) 21:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Primate at FAC
Hello! As a previous reviewer of Primate at FAC it would be great if you could have another look at the article. The FAC has been restarted, and any comments would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Jack (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not checking in. I've been taking a short break from Wiki, but I've been keeping an eye on the progress each day.  Thank you for the reminder, and I'll be back (noticeably) in the near future. –Visionholder (talk) 23:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries, I've had the same sort of issues with uni work recently. Looking forward to your return! Jack (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Triple Crown jewels
Thank you for contributions to the project, Great work, especially on Ring-tailed Lemur - I see you overcame some pointers during the FAC so nice job. May you wear the crowns well. Cirt (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

A note from the GACC

 * Notice delivery by xenobot  13:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Collared Brown Lemur
Hi Visionholder. Haven't seen you around much lately. I have been considering doing a minor expansion of Collared Brown Lemur. I know that is on your "to do" list, and I am sure when you get to it you will have a lot more to add than I do. But before I did anything I wanted to make sure I wasn't stepping on your toes. Rlendog (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to make whatever revisions you want. I've been taking an extended break from Wiki, but was going to get started again this week.  My next goal is the Lemur page, which should keep me fully occupied for at least a month or two.  Depending on what sources you pull from, I may or may not having much to add to the Collared Brown Lemur page when you're done.  Due to the limitations of my resources, major updates for some of the less common lemurs in captivity may be delayed until I move to North Carolina and start volunteering at the Duke Lemur Center.  That should happen this summer.  Good to hear from you, and sorry for not staying in touch.  –Visionholder (talk) 06:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize. An opportunity to work at the Duke Lemur Center sounds awesome! Rlendog (talk) 04:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, please hold off on the Collared Brown Lemur. It looks simple enough, and I may use that page (today) as an opportunity to dust off my skills at updating pages.  I hope you don't mind.  Visionholder (talk) 16:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Lemur Taxonomy Activity
There has recently been editing activity around the genus Eulemur, in particular attempting to split Eulemur rufifrons from Eulemur rufus, and assign E. rufifrons to the Red-fronted Lemur article and create a new "Red Lemur" article for E. rufus. This seems to be based on a comment in the E. rufus 2008 IUCN entry speculating on a possible split. But there is a paper that was published in December 2008 by Mittermeier, et al, that may create a basis for this split. But I cannot access the paper. What do you think? Rlendog (talk) 20:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I noticed these revisions yesterday, and decided to wait and see how the rest of the community treated the edits. Essentially, these are the same sweeping edits that I did back when the new IUCN Red List came out, but rolled back because we only recognize species identified by Groves or significant scientific publications that make a case for it.  I cannot access the Mittermeier paper either.  In fact, my lack of access to scientfic literature has been part of the reason why I have stepped away from editing Wiki's lemur pages for so long.  (I hope to resume when I move closer to a good academic library, namely Duke's.)  Anyway, despite the Mittermeier paper (unless it's text specificly mentions this case and supports the split), I am in favor of rolling back the edits and merging the duplicate pages for this species. –Visionholder (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * After reading the relevant parts of the paper you referred to, it sounds like there is very strong support for the differentiation between E. rufus and E. rufifrons... according to Mittermeier. We still have the problem of inconsistencies with Groves.  Several months ago, looked into a potential publication date for the next revision of Mammal Species of the World and was informed that it would be years from now, possibly as much as ten.  The question is how long should Wiki wait to update classifications?  We can reflect new research in the text of articles, but new common and scientific names require page creations that apparently require Groves' blessing.  I guess we could create re-directs for all the new names to existing names, then re-write the articles to clearly state the likely split, based upon the research.  Either way, this is not something for the two of us to decide.  We need a concensus.  Has this issue already been addressed for other mammal species?  If a concensus has or can be reached, I will gladly step up, dive back into Wiki editing, and resolve these issues on Wiki for all lemur pages.  But I need formal guidelines in order to do so.  –Visionholder (talk) 19:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you been able to access the full article? I got access and they make the case for the split.  I reverted back to the Red Lemur and Red-fronted Lemur versions from a few days ago, referencing the article.  I think it is legitimate to vary from MSW here for a couple of reasons.  (1) Groves himself is a co-author of the article, so it seems to have his blessing.  The difference from MSW is thus just a timing issue - Wikipedia should not have to wait for MSW to be updated in order to be updated.  (2) We have varied from MSW in similar circumstances when new information has emrged.  For example, some of the newly described species of mouse lemur have articles, even though they are not in MSW.  Rlendog (talk) 17:45, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If Groves helped write it, then that makes it a lot easier. I have a copy of the article, but only read the first 2 author names.  My bad.  Anyway, as promised many times before, I will try to get more involved soon.  Again, it will be easier for me to find good references after I move to North Carolina this summer.  You should see more of me then. –Visionholder (talk) 20:46, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

America's Teaching Zoo
I've added a new category to Commons, for pictures of/from America's Teaching Zoo. I noticed three of your lemur pictures were geo-tagged for ATZ, but I thought you might have additional pictures that you hadn't geo-tagged that could be added to that category.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Rollback
I have granted rollback rights to your account; the reason for this is that after a review of some of your contributions, I believe I can trust you to use rollback correctly by using it for its intended usage of reverting vandalism, and that you will not abuse it by reverting good-faith edits or to revert-war. For information on rollback, see New admin school/Rollback and Rollback feature. If you do not want rollback, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Good luck and thanks. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 04:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

File:Gray Mouse Lemur 1.JPG
Hello! I have blurred (a LITTLE) and cropped the image you ordered at Graphic Lab. Check it out by copying and pasting "File:Gray Mouse Lemur 1.JPG" into your Wikipedia search bar. Tell me what you think by replying on my talk page. You can reply on my talk page by clicking here. If you do not like what I did (I put some hard work into it, how dare you!), you can click and your image will automatically be reset to its original state. Cheers! --Goldblattster (talk) 21:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello again! I have updated the image with a new "version". I have added more blurring (if you want even more, don't be afraid to ask) and I also fixed a small problem that was in the last revision that involved a part of the lemur being lightly blurred (oops!). Tell me what you think about this latest one at my talk page. --Goldblattster (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Be reassured, I am not taking offense :-) (I think...). You are doing this on GIMP, right? --Goldblattster (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I use Photoshop 8.0. –Visionholder (talk) 20:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Toothcomb
Your photo of the lemur's toothcomb... what angle was that taken from? It looks like it was taken from the inside facing out! DS (talk) 12:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The photo was taken from above at a slight angle. The animal's mouth was being held open by the veterinarian while it was under anesthesia for a routine physical (and dental) exam. The lemur was not harmed in any way. The image posted is also cropped from a larger image. –Visionholder (talk) 14:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Editing
I have made many unnecessary edits to Wikipedia, if you remember. I experimented once, changing the "Watermelon" entry to something completely absurd. It took several hours to change. Why is it so easy for people to edit pages, often vandalizing the page? I propose stricter standards for editing, in order to make Wikipedia a reliable and accurate source of information. Some classrooms ban the use of Wikipedia for projects and research in their classrooms, as they consider it an unreliable and often inaccurate source. My hope is that Wikipedia can become a true encyclopedia, not a think tank, and that everyone can come to use it as a completely valid research site. myfi ddyfodiad. -Cedric Glensara —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.248.106 (talk) 18:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Lemur article sources
I'm glad you got all settled in! Hurray for the rewrite! I know I'm probably violating some Wikipedia provision for advertising, but have you been to the Duke University Lemur Center by the way? If you haven't, at this time of year I would recommend an early morning tour before it gets too hot and the lemurs hide in their boxes. If you want to arrange a tour this page has the instructions. You may be able to take some nice pictures. Silly me, you're working there. My reading retention needs some work...<font color="Green">Sifaka <font color="Green">talk  03:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC) Regarding resources, if you hit paywalls with anything, then it may be worthwhile to take a day trip to the Duke University library where the academic access should let you view most things. Also, the library is pretty darn nice to work in. If you don't have a car, the Durham #6 Data bus gets you pretty close to the Bostock/Perkins library. (The bus stop is by the entrance to the gardens closest to the chapel; you'll have to hike up a hill to the quad with the library on it.) <font color="Green">Sifaka <font color="Green">talk  02:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Primate Behavioral Ecology by Karen B. Strier. first, second, and third book on the list. While not specific to lemurs (it does have some lemur specific information) it is an extremely accessible and easy to read book which introduces important topics regarding primates, like their behaviors, social groups, reproductive strategies, etc. Basically it will give a very good outline of the kinds of topics that should be on the lemur page. It is in the stacks at Biol-Env. Sciences Library which is here. Unless you have a Duke card, or a close family member is affiliated with Duke University, or you are willing to blow a bit of cash on a library pass, you will have to go to the building and read/photocopy it there. If photocopying bring change.
 * Link to contact info of Peter H. Klopfer, a prof emeritus who does lemur related studies at Duke who can probably answer most any questions about lemurs you can throw at him in case you have questions. A nice guy as I can personally attest to.
 * To avoid clogging up your user page, I deleted most of the references I just posted below. They're all on the Lemur talk page here. Nice picture of a toothcomb by the way. Tell me if you come up with a specific topic that needs researching, like play behavior for example. I'll see what I can dredge up. I also have Duke library access if you find something that you want to investigate or track down in dead tree format and otherwise don't have access to. <font color="Green">Sifaka  <font color="Green">talk  04:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruffed lemur
Congrats. Now you're practically tied with me! :) <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">ceran <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">thor 22:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! But I'm not stopping there. I'm waiting for a GA review of Gray Mouse Lemur, which I also plan to take to FA, plus I'm working (offline) to re-write Lemur and (eventually) Prosimian.  Unfortunately, I'm working and volunteering most of every day (no days off), so things are pretty slow right now.  Once my life quiets down, expect FA after FA under the topic of lemurs. –Visionholder (talk) 01:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nightmare vision...Still, well done with this one, and I won't feel obliged to review the next one unless it has a Ruff (: <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! You never answered my question. Are you creating a collared/ruffed animal topic or something?  I'm a little busy trying to re-write Lemur and Prosimian at the moment, but when I'm done I could try to finish promoting Collared Brown Lemur if you'd like.  Just let me know.  –Visionholder (talk) 05:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Visionholder, if you need prose help, I'm usually off and on until 5. Then I have a commitment, so... you know,

I'm offline. :) <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">ceran <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">thor 14:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

GM Lemur
Before you submit the article to FAC, I'd suggest some lead work and perhaps a PR. I haven't looked over the prose because I'm busy helping at an FAR. <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">ceran <font color="#2F4F4F" face="Century">thor 11:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion... although I admit to being a little slow about one thing. What's a PR?  (Sorry, still learning all the common Wiki acronyms.) Otherwise, I wasn't planning to submit Gray Mouse Lemur for FAC until I at least had a range map.  I'll try to look over the lead sometime soon. –Visionholder (talk) 19:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently, sleep helps my brain work. :-)  I have no problem doing a peer review first, although the last time I did one, no one responded.  WP:PRIMATE isn't very active, except for a few individuals (like myself) who have very specific interests.  But, regardless, if you think I should do a PR, I will open one. –Visionholder (talk) 23:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Scientific names
Using scientific names only for titles - there are pros and cons too. For birds common names are potentially more stable than scientific ones as genetic analysis becomes more prevalent more and more birds are being moved around between different genera. There are also ease of use questions and finally, have you seen the fights over scientific names that the plant people have? They go on and on and on! Personally I favour allowing each project as much leeway as possible to work out what works for their field. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Illustration references
To answer your question, I primarily use fossil reconstructions given in scientific publications as a basis for my illustrations. For example, I based my reconstruction of Palaeopropithecus ingens on a figure found in a chapter of the book Natural Change and Human Impact in Madagascar (specifically "Lemurs:Old and New" by E. L. Simons). Less frequently I will use other life reconstructions as a guideline for my illustrations (my reconstruction of Archaeolemur majori is partly based on another figure in that same publication that provided an illustration of the animal). If I cannot access any more reconstructions from scientific publications to use as a basis for illustrations, I will use images I find from various websites, such as this photograph found in the blog Dots in Deep Time, in which I used the fossil skull to the left as a basis for the head of A. majori in my illustration. I've noticed that very few of the illustrations of extinct organisms produced by Wikipedia's users provide references in their description pages, but I suppose that due to the often fragmentary nature of available fossil specimens, many of these illustrations are highly speculative reconstructions that can be challenged with the discovery of new, previously unknown material from an organism. Thanks for your suggestion; I think it would greatly improve the quality and verifiability of Wikipedia's coverage of extinct organisms. I'll make sure to provide references for all my future illustrations and attempt to provide references for my current ones, too. Smokeybjb (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Lemurs
Hello Visionholder. Just wondering, how's the Lemur article going? Any plans for GA/FA (the Primates portal needs more of those)? And speaking of portals, still interested in making the Lemur portal? Let me know if you need any help.  Zoo Fari  18:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your interest! Admittedly, the new Lemur article is moving very slowly. Worst of all, it's being done offline, so only I can see it's progress.  Despite my limited availability to work on it (I work and volunteer about 70 hrs/wk), I am making progress and hope to publish it on Wiki before I leave for Madagascar in October.  With the amount of information I have accumulated so far, the article may have to be split into multiple topics, but it is still hard to say at this point.  After Lemur, I hope to move on to Strepsirrhini, Prosimian, and then each of the 5 family articles.  After that, I will then move on to individual species and possibly extinct species.  So don't worry—there will be plenty of material for the Primates portal, especially within a year.
 * As for a Lemur portal, I still plan to create one, but will probably not start until I have finished Lemur, Strepsirrhini, Prosimian, and the 5 family pages. First I need more quality lemur material, and then the portal will begin.  For now, Primates has it's own wonderful portal, and that can display everything.  Whenever I start on the portal, I'll let you know.  Ultimately, the Lemur portal will be part of my attempt to create featured material in all the major categories: article (done), list (done), topic, sound, picture, and portal.  –Visionholder (talk) 21:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, well can't wait to see the outcomes :-)  Zoo Fari  18:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Lemures
Hi there. Thanks for the mail. My work on Lemures was mere partial salvage, I'm afraid. Off the top of my head, "Remuria" as antecedent is an interesting but spurious late Roman etymology - I forget whose, but will look it up and post my sources here. Quite honestly, I doubt you'll find more than "etymology unknown" but I agree, the web-page you linked to is not adequate citation. Lewis and short's Latin dictionary is available online at perseus.org, but is an ancient nightmare to use and larded with rather out-of-date scholarship. As it happens I'm creating a page to be titled "Spirits of the dead in Ancient Rome", or somesuch, so the answer to your query will be doubly useful. Regards. Haploidavey (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2009(UTC)
 * Ah! found it - or rather something more handy than the source I originally used. It looks good, healthily skeptical, well cited and footnoted. Hope this suits your purposes. Haploidavey (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

PS: I'd not use the original source you linked to. "Larva" is originally and straightforwardly a mask, with the scary, extended sense coming later as probably a low factoid: they differ from lemures, who remain just beyond the margins of visibilty but horribly close at hand (don't look behind you!). Perhaps the website authors have got hold of some fairly ancient source that gives credence to Ovid's or Horace's guesstymology and Porphyry's commentary on both - his take on the lares seems a downright bizarre bit of folk etymology. Augustine seems to have a better grasp on the matter. Sorry, I'll shut up now and have my weekend. Haploidavey (talk) 17:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the awesome reference! I'm still not sure if I'll try to tell a very abbreviated version of the Roman term's history (see Etymology discussion directly below) on the Lemur page, but if I do, that will be my source.  Again, thank you very much for the help! –Visionholder (talk) 04:07, 6 September 2009(UTC)


 * Well, I see you've a very determined man on the job, so I'll just hang about here with the dark unseen ones. I thought I'd let you know your query has prompted a complete re-write of Lemures to include discussion of Ovid's Remurian notions. It'll take me a while. Everything does. Haploidavey (talk) 23:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That's awesome! The complete re-write of Lemures will compliment the complete re-write of Lemur that I *hope* to publish before I leave for Madagascar in October.  Keep me posted.  Although the question remains... should the Ovid story and brief rebuttal be mentioned on the Lemur page?  –Visionholder (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I imagine a very brief rebuttal could be entirely in order. There's more than enough disinformation on the web – let the truth be told! Messianic regards. Haploidavey (talk) 00:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Etymology
Hi, Visionholder. Saw your note about an etymology for lemures on the Haploidavey talk page.

The OLD offers a tentative etymology for the Latin word lemur as connected to lamia, with a possible link also to Greek λαμυρός, lamuros, "greedy." I dimly recall that T.P. Wiseman's book Remus touches on this (limited preview online via Google Books), because of the spurious etymology (from Ovid) relating to the festival names Lemuria/Remuria. Steven Green has a note on the problematic nature of the etymology in his commentary on Ovid's Fasti 1.

I think, though, that the "real" etymology (in terms of scientific linguistics) is kinda irrelevant. If you're looking to give an etymology for how the critters got their name, you should probably go to your local library and dig into the full-sized Oxford English Dictionary. Online, people (such as the LA Zoo) seem to be under the impression that the Romans themselves called the animals lemures because of their nocturnal habits and startling eyes, like the ghosts. I find no evidence that the Romans used the word for any animal. And it's unlikely, isn't it, that an ancient Roman would have seen an animal native to Madagascar? They never went anywhere near that far south in Africa, and I'm not sure they imported many small exotic animals that couldn't be featured at the games or used for entertainment (like simians).

I suspect that Latin-educated European naturalists or adventurers applied the term to the animals in the modern era. If so, it's enough to know that Latin lemures referred to a kind of ghost or nocturnal apparition; anything more is probably irrelevant to your purpose. According to the Wikipedia article on the island, European contact with Madagascar only began around 1500. Do you know at what point the animal starts getting mentioned in the literature? It wouldn't surprise me if it got its name lemur in the 19th century, because there's a touch of Gothic Romanticism about it. If you find an answer in the OED, I'd love to know. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Cynwolfe, thanks for your reply. I was not implying that Romans named the lemurs.  Most of the ancient Roman culture existed before any humans had made it to the island in the first place.  I was just interested in telling a very abbreviated story about "lemures" and how the Roman word from which lemurs got their name from might tie back to the story of Romulus and Remus.  Admittedly, it may not be appropriate to give that type of detail on the lemur page itself, even in an abbreviated form.  Maybe it only belongs on the lemures page.  Either way, thanks for taking an interest and sharing your thoughts. –Visionholder (talk) 04:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * And I didn't mean to say that you said the Romans named them; I was glad that you might correct a misconception represented online. But once I noticed the discussion (you'll have to forgive me for barging in; I'm frequently on Haploidavey's page), I did become intrigued by when the animals got the name, because it seems an imaginative and self-conscious piece of naming, and I'm interested in the ways scientists and naturalists used their classical educations in the 1500s–1900s. Cynwolfe (talk) 05:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I wish I knew who started the use of the name "lemurs", but all of my high-quality sources only say things like "Early biologists coined the term 'lemur' as the calls of some species... were reminiscent of the cries of Roman lemures, or 'spirits of the dead.' Subsequently, this has become widely accepted as an encompassing vernacular for all of Madagacar's primates." (Garbutt, p. 85) Without probing the academic literature of the 1600's and 1700's, I doubt we'll find the answer.  But like I said, the bigger question for me is whether or not to mention Ovid's idea on the Lemur page (under "Etymology") and then contradict it with Haploidavey's source given above, or just to say something similar to the quote I just typed up.  Is it too much detail?  Or given that web sites (see my poor-quality source) do mention Ovid's version of the etymology, offering both views might be beneficial to readers who are (and are not) familiar with it.  Your thoughts?  –Visionholder (talk) 16:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, ideally I'd say the OED would enable you to make a succinct statement about when the word entered the English language as a name for the animals; it will also identify the source, which you could note if you find the context interesting; say, "first appears in the journals/reports/whatever of the English explorer/naturalist/whatever So-and-So as a name for the animals." If you can actually lay hands on this source (counting online hands), or if you can refine your search with this info, you may be able to find the original rationale for naming the critters after the Latin ghosts. (It's also entirely possible that non-Anglophone Europeans used the word first, so the OED would only tell you when it came into English usage.) Then — and here's the part that potentially shows up a weakness of Wikipedia — you could simply link to the Roman lemures article with a note that more on the difficult etymology of the word in Latin usage, including Ovid's problematic contribution, can be found there; the weakness is that I've linked to stuff before, and had it disappear, or have the subhead to which I specifically directed be changed. People mostly don't interfere with Haploidavey's stuff, though, because he's too thorough and detailed for them to bother arguing. Hey, actually, I'm probably heading to the library this afternoon, and if I think of it I'll peek at the OED for you. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, guess what? The OED was completely unhelpful. It records first usage in 1798 for the animal; however, the context assumes we already know what a lemur is:

"tr. Thunberg’s Cape Gd. Hope (ed. 2) II. 206: 'This species of Lemur somewhat resembles a cat, with its long tail, diversified with black and white ringlets'"

So apparently this has a non-Anglophone origin. This mystery has brought out my dogged streak; I don't like to be defeated on these matters. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Please indulge yourself! I don't have the resources (or the access, knowledge, etc.) to track it down, but I would love to have it for the new (upcoming) Lemur page.  However, I should note that your quote was not entirely fruitless.  Please send me the entire reference (in  or  template format) so that I can include it on the Ring-tailed Lemur page I wrote.  I think you just uncovered an original source for why Ring-tailed Lemurs are known as Lemur catta.  –Visionholder (talk) 23:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh... and I suggest starting in Carl Linnaeus. It may originate from him. –Visionholder (talk) 23:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear that! I simply copied the OED entry (because my parking meter was running out!), but have now determined the following: C.P. Thunberg, "Account of the Cape of Good Hope" etc., 1772-5, in vol 16 of Pinkerton's Voyages and Travels, indexed here. (Sorry this isn't in the format you requested; for some reason, my brain won't process standard reference formatting — seriously, this is a highly justified criticism of my articles.) Pinkerton's doesn't seem widely available online. Do you know which Europeans first explored Madagascar? That might give me a new lead. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, looking at the book "Lemurs of Madagacar" by Mittermeier, et al., it seems like the first Europeans to visit the island did make mention of lemurs in their journals (1608–1751), but just referred to them as "beasts" or similar to a monkey. (This probably explains why the French word for 'lemur' is 'maki', which means 'monkey'.)  Without typing up the 4 pages I just read, let me just say that I get the distinct impression that it was Carl Linnaeus who first formally described and classified lemurs, and in doing so, gave them their name.  No specific information is given to justify that, so you may have to look at the works of Linnaeus in order to have any hope of unraveling the mystery.  In fact, Linnaeus himself gave the Ring-tailed Lemur its scientific name, so even the origins of ' catta ' probably lie with Linnaeus. –Visionholder (talk) 23:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * His naming them lemures would be in keeping with the Strindberg quote: "Linnaeus was in reality a poet who happened to become a naturalist." Systema naturae is online; here is the Lemures section (p. 44) but I'm a little unclear about the relation of catta to, say, volans in terms of the development of the nomenclature. So Linnaeus is probably the one who gave the name lemur to all these? I take it (I've never looked at Linnaeus in the original before) what he's doing is listing descriptions he's gathered, three for catta, and then providing his taxonomy. (Please keep in mind I'm a humanist, not a naturalist, if I say something ignorant.) So my next step would be to check the index of sources at the beginning, and then check those out (huh, let's see how impossible that is) to see whether his sources just described the creatures, or whether they went so far as to describe them as like ghouls in the night, or even used the Latin lemures as a simile that L. then picked up on for naming. Then again, would Wikipedia consider this original research? Obviously such a thing should be discouraged, because it might actually expand or clarify preexisting knowledge. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I took 2 years of Latin in high school (in the early 1990s), but can't read it now. You're right -- we may have to draw the line here.  Thanks for looking into it!  –Visionholder (talk) 01:23, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep, this has been fun, but the wall has been hit. I couldn't decipher the abbreviations for two of the three sources, only the first, to which I can find no further clues. I did find indications via Google Books that you can obtain a solid source to say that Linnaeus named them, and I think you can assert on the basis of these that drawing a name from mythology is in keeping with his practice in nomenclature. Let me know if you can't find what you need and I'll dig them back up.

But I have to thank you because I found looking at the Systema naturae in the original so fascinating! I see what Strindberg meant about the poetry when L. says things like placida et tranquilla murmurat ut Felis (there's your catta nomenclature: "When it's peaceful and quiet, it purrs like a cat"). I'm not following what he means about the eyes; he says the pupil makes a perpendicular line by day, and is big and round at night (I can't read the letters in the word before erat), then he wonders an sic natura vel fato? "Is it this way by nature, or by fate?" What does fate mean in that context? Hand of God, intelligent design? I hadn't realized before I saw the actual text how he framed his taxonomy as a tribute to Jehovah with Homo at the pinnacle. That religion and science weren't considered antithetical until quite recently in human history always takes me by surprise. Many thanks for your patience. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what he meant about "the pupil makes a perpendicular line by day, and is big and round at night." He could be talking about the dark vertical stripes running through the dark circles on their eyes. (See File:Lemur_catta_1.jpg) Of course, the eyes may look big and round in the dark, either due to the dark circles around the eyes or their dialated pupils.  The religious musings were also interesting, I admit.  He may be referring to God's design, but I doubt it was "Intelligent Design" by today's standards.
 * I may mention Linnaeus in the Etymology section, but I'm not sure if the reference alone support the view that he named them "lemurs." I'd need a reference noting Linnaeus' interest in mythology and and more evidence that he used names from mythology in his namings.  –Visionholder (talk) 04:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a book that states Linnaeus named them and why; however, the publishing info in the left sidebar is incorrect (not from Harvard UP). And here's The New American Cyclopaedia, though it dates to the mid-19th century, as does this source and this 1898 one and another from about the same time. Here's one from 2005, but very generalist. This book explains why I've found so much 19th-century interest in topic. Haven't spent much time looking for how he drew on classical myth, but here's one good reference, though what I see straddling pp. 251–252 is specifically on butterflies. Oh wait: here's a really good one on his naming practice. (Hope I didn't imply that I myself believe in a divine apparatus.) Cynwolfe (talk) 22:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks to all of your hard work, I have finished completing a new "Etymology" section for Lemur offline. I hope to publish it (along with the rest of the new page) before I leave for Madagascar in October.  I really appreciate your efforts in research!  And don't worry -- I didn't think you believed in divine apparatus.  –Visionholder (talk) 05:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Koala Lemur RfD
You may have noticed that the RfD nomination resulted in a keep. I have tagged it with which automatically places it in the "Unprintworthy redirects" category. If a similar situation arises where you want to get rid of a redirect (or article) that only you have contributed to, you can try for a spedy deletion under WP:CSD (author requests deletion) by placing a template at the top of the page, or better yet, by providing a deletion rationale by filling in the argument of that template:.

When I first saw the nomination, I was certain that it was the result of a play on words with Kuala Lumpur. Best of luck with you lemur plans. -- ToET 08:42, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Collared Brown Lemur
There seems to be several pretty short articles getting GAed lately, such as Eriskay Pony. As such, you may want to take a shot at Collared Brown Lemur when you get back after all. Hope all is going well! Rlendog (talk) 05:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip! With all the books I bought for writing the Lemur article, I may have new info to enhance it, too. Greetings from Madagascar! –Visionholder (talk) 08:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back!
...and a happy new year (thought I might as well be the first). Good to know things went well - considerably better, I'm sure, than the Lemures re-write, which is proving to be, um, protracted and probably best achieved in the decent and silent darkness of my PC. Still, not-really-finishing anything's why we're here, eh? Not that that should apply to you, of course. Best regards, Haploidavey (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Keep at it and you'll eventually finish.  I sincerely hope the Lemur article (and the other 7 related, full-length articles that will go with it) will be finished by the end of the month, but we'll have to wait and see.  Unfortunately, I'm horribly in debt and may have to start working two jobs to get my head back above water.  If that happens, things may slow down horribly.  It's also going to be a challenge to pick up the piles of notes and partially written pages and figure out how and where to resume.  But I'm determined to do it... I'll just need some time.  Anyway, keep in touch!  –Visionholder (talk) 00:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

AP Biology Project
Greetings,  The WikiProject AP Biology 2009 has been a love - hate relationship; fraught with frustrations and celebrations. For those students who connect, the experience has been transforming. It shows in the confidence they gain from being part of a truly intellectual community. For the sand baggers and pretenders it is utter hell. From a teacher's perspective; I'm not certain. Each year I think --- never again. Then out of no where comes words of encouragement which reminds me to focus on the positives. Thanks.
 * On a off note; one of my former students User:Eulemur2008/Main attended a summer program at Duke and came back absolutely inspired by Lemurs. He is now at the NCSSM; I suspect he will find his way to Duke in the years to come. You guys must be doing some great work there. Cheers --JimmyButler (talk) 02:09, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To me, that sounds like the typical instructor reaction to any type of project. Unfortunately, there are too many students in our country that simply don't care about their education.  In my opinion, the best thing to do is just flunk them and focus on the students who truly try.  If motivation is a problem, maybe have the students gather a long list of potential articles to improve, then group them by their interests.  Despite the difficulties you've faced, the work your projects have accomplished is quite impressive.  Definitely don't let the bad apples spoil it for you.  Wikipedia is only as good as we make it. –Visionholder (talk) 02:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Jealous!
Hope you had a nice time in Madagascar!I see you're uploading your lemur shots, you didn't, by any chance, take any birdie shots too? :) Sabine's Sunbird  talk  02:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * My camera didn't have good enough zoom for most of the birds I saw. I did get a few good shots of a Scop's Owl (day and night), some type of fishing eagle (I think) flying overhead, and another type of juvenile owl in Isalo National Park.  If you can help me get a positive ID on them, and if the photos are good enough, I'll upload them to WikiCommons.  If you're cool with that, just email me through Wiki and I'll email you  back with the photos. –Visionholder (talk) 03:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Category redirects
I saw your category redirects at Category:Aotidae and Category:Callitrichidae. I have nothing against these redirects, but please be informed that the right way to do this is to nominate them at WP:CFD. Debresser (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, unfortunately I learned of the formality of this process after the fact. These were just small parts of a much larger re-categorization that is being discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Primates.  Once it is formalized (assuming we can get more people to chime in), what is the best way of going about all of these changes?  I originally offered to do this re-categorization as a favor to the project, while I was working on the lemur stuff for a major lemur article re-write I'm writing.  With how it's going so far, I'm about to throw my hands up in the air and go back to the Lemur re-write.  Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  18:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No suggestions. Just leave the redirect as you made it, and if nobody will protest it, it will be done automatically in another week. I just told you for future cases. Debresser (talk) 18:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've already undid my redirects so that I can follow the proper procedure. How do you recommend going about the massive reorganization that I've helped propose? Numerous umbrella nominations? Post the question to WT:CFD?  (I'm thinking the latter.)  Sorry, still learning here. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  19:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Quick note
I saw a couple of your edits on my watchlist, and just a quick note: HotCat enables you to remove and add a category at the same time using the ± button (example). Ucucha 23:02, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL! I never even noticed that option before! Thanks! –   VisionHolder  « talk »  23:04, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You're not the only one... :) Ucucha 23:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sakis and Uakaris
Shouldn't that be Category:Sakis and uakaris? Ucucha 14:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ... Yes, you're right. Why I make so many mistakes with category creations is beyond me.  Anyway, I created the category by following the link from one of the discussion pages, so the mistake has been around for a while.  Mind doing a quick rename? –   VisionHolder  « talk »  14:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure. If you start at the end of Category:Sakis and Uakaris to move everything to Category:Sakis and uakaris, we'll be able to do it quickly, and I'll delete the wrong capitalization afterwards. Ucucha 14:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you want me to create the new category first, or just start changing the category on the pages? –  VisionHolder  « talk »  15:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I already created it. :) Ucucha 15:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like we're done. I just deleted the category. I'll help out a little more with the atelids if you don't mind; it looks like you didn't fill the categories there yet. Ucucha 15:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's up to you. I've got it if you have better things to do.  Thanks for catching the mistake! –   VisionHolder  « talk »  15:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like we're both doing howler monkeys now. Not a good idea, so I'll keep to spider monkeys and woolly monkeys. Ucucha 15:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I can plow through these pretty fast. I'm also watching out for your changes.  It's up to you, really. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  15:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like we're done already. I checked through Cydebot's contributions and every page where he removed a NW monkey category has been edited since, so we should be good. I also caught a duplicate article at Hybrid spider monkey. Ucucha 15:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Just a note on the whole process: I'm not terribly thrilled with how the community handled this. In the nomination, I specifically asked if I should create the categories for the splits, and no one replied. For the category that still existed, they moved things over. The other categories were just deleted, dumping articles outside of the primate categories. Not very professional IMO. Anyway, they probably need to do a better job formalizing the process of splitting categories. –  VisionHolder  « talk »  15:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's unfortunate. The reason is probably that this kind of change&mdash;a "delete-split"&mdash;is uncommon in CFD discussions, so there appears to be no well-developed process. We fixed it, at least, and the other categories should not be very problematic.
 * By the way, there is no need to worry about the logging article at DYK&mdash;someone will come by to review it, but it often takes some time. Ucucha 15:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Normally my articles get checked off pretty quickly, then sit in the queue for over a week.  Since no one's checked it off, I was wondering if there might be a problem with how I created it.  I've never created an article in a sandbox before and dumped it into the public space like that before.  I could see people being hesitant, worrying that I might have copied it from another page and am now trying to take credit for it to get a DYK award.  That's why I offered the info. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  15:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey
I haven't chatted with you in a while. How's life?  ceran  thor 16:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In general, life's pretty good. I got back from Madagascar a month and a half ago and had a wonderful time!  Life on Wiki has been good, but busy.  I just wrote and published Illegal logging in Madagascar, which is now listed on GAN and DYK.  Once past it acquires GA, I plan to push for FA.  At the moment, I'm frantically trying to enhance the Gray Mouse Lemur article under FAC and should be done in a few hours.  I'm also still working on the complete re-write of the Lemur article, which will probably be more of a topic when I'm done with it.  I've already finished (but not published) 1 of the 7 full-length articles that will accompany it, and I have detailed notes for all the other pages.  I'm also getting tons of help from the research community and meeting some amazing people in the process.  Anyway, I work on that when I'm not getting myself into bigger messes with my GACs, FACs, and re-categorizations.  IRL, life kinda sucks.  I'm cutting back on my work hours because I can't stand the restaurant job, especially in my community.  (I originally put in my 2-week notice, but was talked into cutting back until I could find a new job.)  I've got a lot of debt from the trip, but that's mostly due to moving to Durham prior to the trip, and not realizing that people in this region don't tip much (if at all).  I thought I'd have a temp job as an animal technician at the Duke Lemur Center by now, but I didn't get the job because (at the time) they thought I might be more suited for other lemur work... mostly due to my extensive Wiki and volunteer work.  Other than that, I'm just focusing on Wiki, which is where the enjoyable stuff is.


 * What about you? How's life treating you? –   VisionHolder  « talk »  17:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty good, apart from a minor concussion the other day. I reached 20 good articles and 25 did you knows, as well as 5 FAs to which I was a significant contributor! That's a wonderful milestone to hit, and if it weren't for awesome people like you, I wouldn't be there. I saw GML at FAC; I'll get around to reviewing that tomorrow.  ceran  thor 03:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this any good to you?
hadros means thick, stout according to the OED:


 * I guess that's good. Do they not have individual roots listed? –   VisionHolder  « talk »  00:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * No they don't, only the etymology for individual words. I'm sure though I've come across a (published) scientific vocabulary for these roots I was looking through online a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The full entry there (for the etymology of Hadrosaurus) is "[ad. mod.L. Hadrosaurus (name of the genus), f. Gr. ἁδρός thick, stout + σαῦρος (= σαῦρα) lizard.]" I can also help you with future etymological inquiries in the OED if needed. Ucucha 00:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ucucha! At this point, I'm crossing my fingers that Malleus can find an online source for figuring out the meaning of scientific vocabulary (to make this easier).  I've been looking for one, but haven't been able to find it. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  00:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For mammalian generic names, Palmer (1904) is a good resource: see . You still need a ref for the meaning of murinus though, I think. Ucucha 00:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Palmer seems to be okay, but I'm still hitting less than 50% for most of the names/roots I've tried. And then there are words like mus (mouse) that pull up every page that abbreviates "museum" (Mus.).  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  01:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There is also a good online Latin dictionary at Perseus: . There's also a Greek dictionary on that site. Ucucha 01:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And Mus in Palmer is here: . Ucucha 01:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't believe how much time I'm wasting on what will ultimately be two sentences or a very small paragraph. I wish I knew why this stuff was so incredibly hard to find (in one place) when it should be so easy.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  01:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Collared Brown Lemur
Overheard your exchange with Ucucha about the above and thought I'd drop a lit search on the talk page. Got your email, will reply later tonight or this weekend. Sasata (talk) 19:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Babakotia
I'll take a look this weekend! I'm busy tonight and tomorrow with the fights!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:32, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Re: Help organizing topics
Hey, cool about the lemur plans! I find it a bit difficult to tell what's going on though when subfamilies like Hapalemurinae don't appear in List of lemur species, and also I think where possible the taxonomic classification should mention the common name. Also the articles in the topics should be in the same order as the classification. It's hard for me to check things over when these things are different, and these would certainly need to be cleared up before the topics could be promoted. I'm also confused why there are less than 8 families in the Lemur topic, despite being 8 listed in the list of Lemur species - rst20xx (talk) 23:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for showing an interest in my question. To answer your questions (and ask a few of my own), I will address each point individually:
 * Hapalemurinae was only included because it's technically one of the lemur articles. It's a subfamily, but the subfamilies aren't used much any more.  (Most of the lemur literature is going over to a pretty flat classification system (Family→Genus→Species) and otherwise cladistics.  Honestly, I'm not even sure what to do with that article and Lemurinae at this point.
 * As for using the common names, I'm assuming you're talking about doing it at List of lemur species, not in the topic... right? (Just making sure.)  If so, I will look into adding this later this evening.
 * What do you mean by "the same order as the classification? Do you mean the list inside the topic (reading top to bottom, then left to right)?
 * The 5 families shown in the topic are the extant (living) families. The other 3 families are recently extinct and are included in the "Subfossil lemur" category (Monkey lemur, Sloth lemur, and Koala lemur).  If this method of organization is incorrect, just let me know.
 * Anyway, keep an eye on this talk page and I'll post back when I've got things cleaned up for another quick look. –  VisionHolder  «  talk  »  23:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Before I get started with the topic sorting, I need some clarification. Do I need to follow the exact order of the tables in List of lemur species, and if so, how do I handle family names, genera names, and other types of articles?  Would alphabetical order be best?  And if so, do I need to revisit the list page and put my tables in alphabetical order?  I'm a little confused. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  02:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think while the Hapalemurinae and Lemurinae articles exist, they should be included in both the topic and the list.
 * I think the topic should use common names, where possible, and currently you've set it up this way. The list doesn't, which is fine but I think it should also mention them, just to make things clearer.
 * Yes. You don't need the order to be alphabetical, I just think the order in the topics should be consistent with that of the list, for clarity/uniformity.
 * Ahh I see what you've done. I'd be inclined to sort the extinct species back into the separate families, instead of giving them their own topic. They do after all belong to those families, whether extinct or not.
 * -- rst20xx (talk) 10:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have gone through and pre-sorted the tables on List of lemur species, added common names to the taxonomy at the top (where available), and have done my best to sort the topics on my topics page. A few notes: I have removed Hapalemurinae, Lemurinae, and Indriinae because I am seeing if I can just convert them to redirects.  That way instead of writing (very short) articles for them, I can just give a brief history of these deprecated names on the parent taxa page.  I also had some issues sorting things in the various topics.  Some topics had just species, while others both species and genera, and yet others had pages on subjects and subtopics.  I took the approach of alphabetizing subjects, then subtopics, then genera, and finally species.  The Lemur topic was the biggest mess.  I put the list first, then the subjects, and put genus Daubentonia in order as if it were a family (Daubentoniidae redirects to Daubentonia).  Honestly, if you feel you can sort them better, feel free to edit the page.


 * As for the subfossil lemurs, they are a notable research topic in their own right. There is plenty of literature dedicated to them as a group.  I think having their own topic is justified... especially when I finish the upcoming Subfossil lemur page.  Would you prefer that I double-list the subfossil families (and stand-alone species?) in the Lemur topic as well?  Or is my current organization sufficient? –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  19:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think double-listing would be better. Nice work here, I appreciate it. The redirects sound like a plan. I think the way to make the families/species distinctions clearest would be to use indentation a la Featured topics/Australian cricket team in England in 1948. I'll be back to look in more detail later - rst20xx (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried doing a little bit of indenting, but decided to split some groups out into very small topics instead. I also double-listed 3 of the subfossil lemur articles as you suggested.  One other note I forgot to mention: The List of lemur species only includes species recognized by a taxonomic authority, not the new species that might have recently been published.  Consequently, Margot Marsh's Mouse Lemur, Arnhold's Mouse Lemur, Manasamody Sportive Lemur, and Holland's Sportive Lemur are in the topics, but not on the list page.  I'm hoping the 3rd edition of "Lemurs of Madagascar" (due out in May or June) will resolve this issue.  In the meantime, they are listed at the bottom of their topics so as not to disturb the order used on the list page.  Again, feel free to reorganize the topics as you see fit. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  20:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think splitting the topics is a bad idea, I'd generally try and merge the families, unless any are over 30, and then they should be split - rst20xx (talk) 13:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I missed your reply in the morning. I have merged most of the topics, except for the Mouse lemur topic. If you feel that it should be merged into Cheirogaleidae as well, let me know. Everything should still be in order, although the column breaks may need adjusted. Again, the topic I'm most shaky on is the Lemur topic. Once you get a chance, please look it over and feel free to edit the page to tweak it. Sorry to take up so much of your time. I really appreciate your feedback. On the bright side, it will reduce the amount of work when I submit for FT in the future. –  VisionHolder  «  talk  »  06:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The topic "title" must match the piped lead. I'm fixing this. Don't worry about indents going onto a new column. I agree with your decision to make Mouse lemur a separate topic. With that said, I think it all looks good now. What about the Lemur topic are you unsure on? By the way if you get any of the individual genus topics up to scratch before their parent family topics, feel free to go ahead and nominate them, though I will advocate merging them into the family topic when that topic is ready (except with Mouse lemur). This is a bit like what's happening right now with the Derfflinger class battlecruisers FT and the Battlecruisers of Germany FTC - rst20xx (talk) 12:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You could also consider a species of Lemur topic, with the list of Lemur species as the lead, and then all the red articles in the current Lemur topic proposal wouldn't need creating for that - rst20xx (talk) 12:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing I was uncertain on was organization, but if you're good with it, then we're fine. I may try a "species of lemur" topic.  If I do, what would the official title be since it must match the piped lead (in this case List of lemur species)?  Btw, did you want me to even up the Lemuridae topic?  Also, if you think I'm ready, I will go ahead and create books for these topics.  Once I finish my Lemur re-write, my goal is to nail down all the subfossil lemurs (as I am with Babakotia, which is in FAC), as well as create the Subfossil lemur page.  Don't be surprised if you see that coming up for GT or FT sometime this summer.  Thanks for your help! –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  13:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh whoops, yeah go ahead and even up Lemuridae. Erm I'd call the topic "Species of lemur". Look forward to seeing you at FTC soon! :) rst20xx (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Four Award

 * Congrats! Very nice article, your hard work is appreciated! —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  16:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoops! :) awarded Babakotia and the Bronwyn Bancroft one at the same time, and accidentally copied over the same template without replacing the article topic name. The credit was correct in the Four Award records I updated, but not here on your talk page. Anyway, I fixed it. Glad you got a laugh out of it! :D —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  22:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! And good job actually identifying the correct article names for me! lol —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  23:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. :-) –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  23:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Frugivore Page
Hi Visionholder, wondering if you have time/interest to call in over at Talk:Frugivore where there is POV problem related to interpretations of the term "obligate frugivore" with respect to primates, with one editor wishing to represent that humans are obligate. Perhaps your knowledge of a frugivore more obligate than H. sapiens sapiens (!) - and not that obligate at that!! - and your information organisation background might enable a more representative outcome there. Good luck with finishing your pages soon! <span style="font-family: 'Brush script MT', cursive;font-size:1.5em;vertical-align:middle;"> Trev M   ~   19:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have replied to the topic above your latest post. I'm sorry if I came across as biased, but this is quite clearly an attempt by an animal rights activist to push their views on an obscure (but important) biology article.  I deal with these people all the time, and they are quite sneaky and persistent.  If I have to, I will monitor the page from now on (as well as folivore) and promptly revert edits along these lines, citing the discussion on that talk page.  I just wish someone else would come along and revamp/monitor the prime biology articles.  I've got my hands full with all the lemur articles and topics I want to work on.  Anyway, thanks for letting me know.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  01:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input, which I have not the slightest problem with. That page will remain on my watch list. This one I'll have to prune off off though, keep my list under control. If you post your pages for review, I'll probably come by again, best <span style="font-family: 'Brush script MT', cursive;font-size:1.5em;vertical-align:middle;"> Trev M   ~   01:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

IDs
If you ever want to improve your identifying skills, you might want to look at commons:Category:Unidentified Primates. There's a couple of lemurs in there too. Ucucha 00:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. All the lemurs have been identified. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  01:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Great. You did better than Innotata and me&mdash;there's still a lot of squirrels left. Ucucha 01:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Mine were easy. Very few lemur species are either kept in captivity or seen frequently by tourists (because few parks lie on good roads or near large cities with the conveniences tourists expect).  I was going to do the lorises and maybe some monkeys, but there are more issues there than just identification.  There are copyright violations (people uploading files and claiming the files are theirs), people not going through OTRS, and a bunch of unlabeled animal rights material from their propaganda.  Specifically, I try to avoid the animal rights stuff because my actions and words tend to draw attention from animal rights supporters who also happen to be admins on Wiki.  I've been slapped around once with little or no support, and I don't feel like going through that again. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  01:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I imagine. Something similar seems to be going on with a few files like File:Edelhert OVP copyright Martijn de Jonge.jpg, uploaded by some Dutch animal rights group. It's a deer in the Oostvaardersplassen, a piece of reclaimed land that is actually developing into something like real nature, which includes animals starving and dying, of course. Some people can't stand that, and apparently upload images to Commons to help their cause. I will try to help deal with it if something like this comes up again.
 * Yes, the squirrels are more difficult, especially with poor poses, and without a location given. Ucucha 01:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * In the distant future, after we achieve our goals of writing several featured topics about lemurs and rodents, if you want to team up and take on some of the animal right pages to make them truly NPOV, I'd be game. I'm not doing it alone though, especially since some of those admins keep a close eye on me and will revert me instantly. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  01:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That'll be a long time away&mdash;there's a lot more lemurs and rice rats to cover (and the list is only growing). Ucucha 02:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of those special animal rights people, you might want to look at the lengthy debate at Talk:Frugivore that I got dragged into. Lots of fun.  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  13:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I read your post; it's fun, and you're undoubtedly right there. Ucucha 20:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Collared Brown Lemur GA
Nice job with the Collared Brown Lemur article! I will have to use that as a template when I get ready to expand lesser studied species, like Geoffroy's Tamarin for GA nominations. Rlendog (talk) 20:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I've already got one WP:VSFA which you can also look at: Babakotia
 * Eventually, I plan to treat all lemur articles like this, but I need to pump out the larger articles first since they lay the foundation. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  20:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw Babakotia and added it to the Primate portal (which looks more and more like a lemur portal with a few Central American monkeys sprinkled in). That is great progress.  I've slowed down considerably.  I see that ruffed lemur is today's FA on the main page, which must feel great. Rlendog (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm actually wanting to create a lemur portal, but I'm waiting until I have at least 2 or 3 more major lemur FAs (such as Lemur, Sifaka, and Aye-aye). (I'm not sure what WP:PRIMATE will think, though.)  As for the Ruffed lemur on TFA, I am very thrilled.  I was hoping to get a TFA by the end of the year, but every time I checked the nominations page, I could never get enough points to even nominate.  Luckily, my page got noticed and placed on the list by the responsible admin.  I was very excited Saturday morning!  Today, however, I can now see that TFA may require a day off of work just to help maintain and fix the massive mess it creates.  The vandalism rate is like nothing I've ever seen before.  Even the DYK nominations page doesn't generate as many edit conflicts as this.  Unfortunately, I'm out of town and on a slow hotel connection, so my repair work will have to wait until I'm home.  All-in-all, however, I am pretty happy with it.  My ultimate goals, however, are still to get Ring-tailed Lemur and the upcoming Lemur article on TFA.  When those finally happen, I will go out and celebrate those nights.  :-)  Anyway, I hope to see more of you in the future.  I've missed having you around!  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  22:00, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd just check to see if anything useful/appropriate was added, record those items, then revert back to the state it was in before TFA, and add back in the useful bits. Rlendog (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry
I didn't mean to imply that you had any evil motives in sending Pearl to the Human page, and I should have worded that differently. The way I see it, moving the discussion with her to a more heavily edited (read: defended) venue was actually a pretty good tactical move; it'll be harder for her to screw up that article than the other. >.>

...I only said "to make trouble" because that does seem to be exactly what she means to do. I can't believe she's still citing sources nearly three hundred years old. :(

J.M. Archer (talk) 14:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I didn't take any serious offense. We're good.  As for Pearl, I'm pretty confident she's an animal rights activist looking to push her agenda or plant information on Wiki for use by animal rights groups.  They're a very sneaky bunch, as well as very vocal and incessant.  They also don't listen, so there's no point arguing.  The best thing to do is to not give them a platform and just start replying that "Wiki is not a forum."  She'll eventually either get the point or start throwing a fit by doing things that will ultimately get her blocked. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  22:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Callitrichidae
I think you duplicated some material on Callitrichidae: the last paragraph talks about social organization again. And the article should decide whether it uses British or American spelling. Ucucha 03:52, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Damnit... I saw the first mention of social structure and just added the content in. I knew I should've just typed up the Sussman quote on the talk page and left it for someone else to do.  The lemur pages are enough of a mess.  The last thing I want to do is monkey around with these low-grade monkey articles. >.<  Anyway, I'll try to fix it now.  (Note: I may just delete some of the material since there is no inline citation and I can't verify the sources.) –   VisionHolder  « talk »  03:56, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I cheated. I located its non-inline ref and moved it back up, but left the old material commented out.  The source was older than mine and the lack of certainty from an older source may mean it's inaccurate.  I'll let a New World monkey specialist try to integrate it back in.  As for the mix of British and American spelling, I'm not seeing it.  And, honestly, I need sleep because I have to be up early in the morning.  If I need to, I'll take another look at it when I get home from volunteering tomorrow afternoon. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  04:09, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't feel pressured about it; I don't think there's anything else that needs to be done now. I got the Goldizen paper; it is pretty interesting but may be superseded by your ref. There is an "organization" from you and a "generalisation" from someone else in the paragraph you commented out. Ucucha 04:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish they would create a user preference for US or British English, and then create a template that allows us to flag words with multiple spellings, such as 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 . The only problem there is page titles.  Do you think I should make a suggestion, or is it not worth the hassle? –   VisionHolder  « talk »  12:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not worth it, I think, and I'm sure it's been proposed before. We can easily read British spelling and vice versa; I only notice because the Firefox spell checker highlights words that use British spelling. Ucucha 12:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mind reading them, but I know a lot of arguments start over it. I also think it's unprofessional having inconsistencies between a batch of articles within a project.  It's also very annoying knowing you have a mix of UK and US English in an article, and thus have to read it top to bottom to find it.  Those were my three reasons. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  17:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Great work on Collared Brown Lemur
But please do not just replace an image with at least a sharp face with another with blurry faces. If you insist, add your image in another paragraph. There are spaces in this article. Thanks. See your changes. Fred Hsu (talk) 20:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I was trying to add photos of them in their natural habitat and get away from using zoo photos—a common criticism of the lemur articles I've written so far. Unfortunately, my camera sucks, so my pics from Madagascar are not the best in the world.  Anyway, to maintain the GA status of the article, I'll ask the person who reviewed it to judge.  The layout problems created by two photos may compromise its GA (and eventual FA) status. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  20:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I see. Wikipedia is in need of high quality images. My own image isn't that great either. But the article does talk about life in captivity so the image is appropriate. I think the article needs to be extended more in order to compete for FA-hood though. Good work so far. Keep it up. Fred Hsu (talk) 02:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Someone's been busy...
I saw that you'd gone to the meetup and now I see lemur as a DYK hook? You've been working hard, my friend. Hope life is treating you well... I've been trying to keep up with you with a couple articles I'm pushing to FA right now (Cerro Azul (Chile volcano) is at FAC and David A. Johnston is in the works). Glad to hear about the new efforts.  ceran  thor 01:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't say that life's been treating me great, but after having been to Madagascar and living with the local people in remote villages, I know that it can be a lot worse. Anyway, thanks!  As always, there's much, much more to come.  Your articles are looking great as well.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  12:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: Help with sources
Hey VisionHolder. I replaced two IMDb sources with legit news sources, since IMDb is not considered a reliable source. I think Indiantelevision.com is OK, although if you can find something to replace it, I'd suggest you do so. I didn't find anything right away. The other source in that last paragraph is perfectly fine, obviously. I basically just did a Google News Search to come up with the two sources I subbed out for the IMDb. Hope that was helpful, but let me know if you need any further help. I have very limited access to Lexis Nexis, but if you desperately need something in particular cited, maybe I can dig something up. (By the way, titles of movies and TV shows should be italicized, so I italicized a few that I noticed were not.) —  Hun ter   Ka  hn  01:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for finding better references. I certainly don't have access to things like The Washington Times, so I never would have found those.  As for the Indiantelevision.com ref, that's the only one I could find using Google News Search.  If there's anything else out there, it's in the back issues of things like The Washington Times or other subscription-based news.  If your searches didn't turn up anything, then I don't know. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  12:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Thank you very much! I've always wanted a Fauna Barnstar.  It really made my night.  You're right—it was a gigantic task, and I didn't expect it at the outset.  I was used to writing full-length articles (like Ruffed lemur or Gray Mouse Lemur) in a weekend, but these really kicked my butt.  Hopefully it will be mostly downhill from here, with the remaining summary articles and family articles taking much less time than what I call the "gateway article" (a.k.a. Lemur). Best wishes, –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  04:32, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I came here to give you a barnstar myself, but it seems someone beat me to it! Great work! Kaldari (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mind multiples. ;-)  The more the merrier!  :-)  Thanks!  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  20:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

/* Tagging Gr bamboo lemur.jpg for deletion */ response
I responded on my talk page as per your request. Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 03:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And again. Bob the Wikipedian (talk • contribs) 23:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar
Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to the day you do more content creation with the New World monkeys (or even Old World monkeys). You do good work, and I would love to see WP:PRIMATES start to fill out a bit more. –  VisionHolder  «  talk  »  18:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Talkback
–– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Autoreviewer
Hi Visionholder, just wanted to let you know that I have added the autoreviewer right to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature should have little to no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the autoreviewer right, see Autoreviewer. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing!  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 04:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  06:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

FAC: Lemur evolutionary history
If you have a moment and feel like commenting, the FAC for Lemur evolutionary history has been restarted. Your comments and/or support would be greatly appreciated. –  VisionHolder  « talk »  01:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi VH,
 * I'm a little busy work-wise on Mondays and Tuesdays, but did see that the FAC was restarted. I promise to comment on the reworked article within the next few days. Best wishes, Firsfron of Ronchester  03:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Organisating citations
Hi, Visionholder. Sasata told me about your work on organisating citations, e.g. at Lemur - I like the way Lemur handles chapters / contributions of books. I've looked at this and some ideas of my own, and I'd be grateful if you could contribution at my Talk page. --Philcha (talk) 16:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I'm glad someone other than me found it useful!  If someone else comes up with a better way to do it, I'll let you know.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  22:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Lemur
Hi! I am translating this and some others on the subject to greek for the Greek Wikipedia. I just wanted to say that I am amazed by your work there! Thank you very much. And I am waiting to read about Subfossil lemurs. Regards! --<font color="#082567">Egmontaz  ♤  talk  18:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'm writing the subfossil lemur page as we speak... while also being interrupted by the Lemur evolutionary history FAC.  Look for the article to appear within the next few weeks. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  18:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair use
I'm no expert on Fair Use, which is why I nodded through your multiple images, but they are real sticklers at FAC, and I think there is a good chance that you will be challenged (I had a photo (not mine) of a 4000 year-old hieroglyph deleted because it was carved in stone, therefore three-dimensional and not protected by PD-art). If you can get an email from CI positively giving permission your use, that would, I think solve the problem. you would need to leave a message explaining the details on the article's talk page and send an email forwarding the CI message to "permissions-en (at) wikimedia (dot) org". See Requesting copyright permission for instructions. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've made the request. Now I just need to sit back and wait and see what I hear back.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  00:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Four Award

 * There are no endings... only beginnings. ;-)  But thanks!  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  23:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks
Hey...Just wanna say thanks for clearing that up...UtherSRG wasn't much help... Bonjour! Je m'appelle lcb1994   talk  06:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. I'm glad I could be of service.  Trust me, UtherSRG is a good guy.  Once you deal with enough vandals and people trying to create Wiki pages for their own pets, friends, and family, I'm sure it makes you less willing to discuss issues like this in detail.  Plus, we all have our bad days.  Always keep that in mind, not just on Wiki, but the Internet in general. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  06:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Lemurs of Madagascar
The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Thanks! –  VisionHolder  «  talk  »  00:22, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Assessment scale
Is it possible to make a image of the proposed grid including A-Class? Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 06:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am seriously considering the creation of a few more graphics after I get home from volunteering this afternoon. I was hoping people wouldn't get hung up on the details, but they have.  Since all of these "major issues" have been stalled, probably indefinitely, I was trying to take a new approach: 1) agree on re-writing WP:ASSESS first, 2) As it's gradually rewritten, encourage the community to resolve the lingering issues, and 3) implement a new system that is visible to the readers.  As it stands, there's no incentive to resolve these lingering issues.  Anyway, more will come later today when I have time to address it all. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  11:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Better withdraw it now
See discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles, I strongly urge you to withdraw the proposal at WP1.0. It wasn't well thought out (as shown by failure to include A-class) and Stub-to-C class are assigned too easily. Solve one issue (GA symbol in mainspace) first before tackling others. <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 10:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I will reply in more detail this afternoon when I get home from some volunteer work. In short, it seems to me that these issues that you want resolved first are indefinitely stalled.  I was trying to take a different road and was hoping we could look past the details, but unfortunately the graphics I created gave the impression that I was favoring one system over another.  I will go back and try to address this.  As for the GA symbol in the mainspace, I see that idea by itself as a moot point.  I am not making this proposal in order to push that idea through. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  11:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at some of the comments that are coming in, I have to admit you are right. The proposal wasn't well planned.  I had hoped people would read the proposal for what it is, not for what they're afraid it could be.  People brought their pet peeves over gridlocked issues, and assumed I was trying to steamroll over their concerns.  In reality, I was trying to establish a foundation for constructively discussing these stalled issues and hopefully find ways (in future, related proposals) to move past them.  I created 20 graphics, uploaded them, and hoped people would see them as general examples based on the most commonly used form of the current class assessment system (for simplicity), but people interpreted it as a slap in the face to projects that use A-class ratings and other types of assessments.  Had I created 40 or more graphics to appease them, I'm sure someone else would have been slighted.  I foolishly overlooked politics and petty differences out of naivety.
 * Anyway, I am willing to stop the vote, but I would strongly prefer to continue a serious discussion, followed soon by a more complete proposal. However, your comment about solving issues like the "GA symbol in mainspace" issue before tackling others is not reasonable.  That issue has been stalled for years.  Instead, I feel that all the issues, including standardized assessment, A-class, GA recognition, etc. need to be handled under the scope of an series of proposals that work toward a common goal.  Some Wikipedians, like Mike Christie will always oppose because they see Wikipedia in a fundamentally different way.  However, if people want to use the rating system both as a writing aid and a public outreach tool, then this proposal was intended to start the process rolling.  Other issues would be handled in separate proposals afterward, as progress commences.
 * Admittedly, I am new to the process of starting and stopping proposals. I will require guidance on how to properly stop the voting, yet continue the discussion.  Either way, I plan to push forward with this.  Stalling over indefinite deadlocks is not an option, in my opinion. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  16:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You said "I have no experience in doing this [stopping the vote], but will watch and learn". Since there was substantial change in information, you can first close the discussion yourself and state that you withdraw the proposal similar to how it's done here by adding the closed-discussion purple box around that part. Then you can start a new section and restart the revised discussion. This way the votes won't get mixed up between voting in favour/against the old and new proposal. <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 03:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, I don't think the votes "in favor" would change. If anything, it's the votes "against" that I think might flip if the proposal/discussion were presented better.  Anyway, I've had a bit to drink tonight and will look into it first thing when I wake up tomorrow... assuming I have enough time before work.  I appreciate the helpful reply and apologize for my intoxicated state and inability to act tonight.  (Tuesday night are my nights to relax and let go a little.) –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  04:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Banner Templates
I see that you've moved the Primate template to a more standardised name. As part of the unreferenced BLP fight, we have been getting DASHBot to make lists of UBLPs by WikiProject daily, but they rely on using the actual template name, not a redirect. If you have moved other templates, can you please have a look at User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects/Templates and update any other templates that you've moved, and maybe you could use the list to target other templates to be standardised - but please update the Dashbot list so our daily lists continue to work. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for letting me. I didn't see anything about this anywhere when I looked into and discussed the rename.  I'll be sure to look there in the future if I plan on doing any other renames.  Sadly, that list showed me that I erred... WPPrimates is closer to the standard, but following what appears to be the actual standard, I should have named it WikiProject Primates.   –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  18:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Lemur FAC nomination
Hi, am happy to have changed my listing on Lemur at WP:FAC from comments to support. Great work. --bodnotbod (talk) 15:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! –  VisionHolder  « talk »  16:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And now it got promoted—congratulations! Ucucha 17:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, thank you! Without your excellent GAC review, the ride would have been a lot choppier. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  17:55, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Giant fossa
I just expanded the Cryptoprocta spelea article with whatever I could find. It's still rather thin, though, and I wondered whether you perhaps had some more information in your Madagascar books. If not, I'll send it to GAN and perhaps to FAC if there is space in between all the rice rats. Ucucha 20:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, should I delete those images dashbot is bothering you about? Ucucha 20:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First answer: DAMN, YOU'RE FAST! (I wish I could write such quality content so quickly.)  I'll look it over and see what I have.  The only thing I might have is some articles from The Natural History of Madagascar.  Are those available for you to download?  Second answer: Yes, you may delete them.  It's too bad they couldn't be used.  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  20:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, books are seldom available online. Thanks! I think the "puma-like" description that I put in originally comes from an article by Goodman in that book; it'd be good if I could credit the original source.
 * It isn't that much that I did (only five paragraphs of body text). The thing is, there is only one source I could find that devotes more than a few sentences to it (Goodman et al. 2004), and they are mainly enumerating measurements. That makes it rather easy to write. Ucucha 21:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You're still faster than me. But I can be a bit of a procrastinator unless I'm in a writing mode.  Things flow more smoothly in my mind than in text, and in text better than when spoken.  But I'm breaking out of it.  Wiki is gradually helping improve my writing skills (and speed), and apparently I'm an engaging tour guide, even when I talk about advanced, technical lemur topics with ordinary visitors.  So maybe I'm just hard on myself.  Either way, I couldn't have done what you did in such a short amount of time.  Anyway, the article that I'm looking at is reference #52 in Lemur, "Introduction to the Mammals" by Goodman, et al.  If you want, I'll read it and see if I can add anything.  Since I would be adapting to your citation style (which is only slightly different from mine), would you prefer a single, lengthy citation in the "Literature cited" section, or broken up and indented, as in Lemur.  (I'm guessing the former.)  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  21:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the former, please. I've also seen that Wikipedia is improving my writing, and of course it gets more fluent as I do it more.
 * The "puma-like" quote is from another chapter, Goodman SM (2003). Predation on lemurs, pp 1221–1228. Perhaps Goodman has some discussion of C. spelea there that is also interesting for our article. Ucucha 21:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I read that article last night and it contained maybe a couple of sentences, including that comparison. I'll double-check. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  21:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It contained 2 paragraphs, only "new" info: "C. spelea has the same general body form and skull and tooth morphology..." Basically, it mentions something about tooth morphology, but otherwise the information is not new.  It's mostly about size difference.  And yes, the "puma-like" reference can be found here. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  21:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh... it also mentions that there is no proof that it fed on lemurs... it's a conclusion from extrapolation... –  VisionHolder  « talk »  21:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from the tooth morphology thing, for which there are not details, I have added all the information that I have on hand. I'm not sure if I can do the GAC review, but from what I can tell, it should pass without objection. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  22:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the additions! I put it up for GAN. It appears that it is identical to the living fossa except in size, and I must say I find the evidence for that being a specific difference not very striking either. Can you give the page number for "puma-like"? Ucucha 07:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also started work on Madagascar's most special mammal (no, not the aye-aye); any information you can find would again be appreciated. Ucucha 11:24, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That was another article I wanted to see improved. Thanks!  I'm sure I have a little bit of information on it, although probably minimal.  Unfortunately, my time will be very limited until Monday.  I'll see what I can do, though.  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  11:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's certainly important, and interesting—still figuring out whether it's a hedgehog, a giant rat, a hyrax, an aardvark, or an aye-aye. No need for haste: it can wait, and I saw you'll also have a few things to do with Lemurs of Madagascar. Ucucha 13:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I got something up on the bibymalagasy. It needs some work yet, particularly on the description (MacPhee is rather detailed), though, but it is at DYK. Ucucha 19:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Happy Visionholder's Day!
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow! Thank you! When I saw I had a message, that was absolutely not what I was expecting.  I really appreciate it.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  00:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Grats!! :D - UtherSRG (talk) 07:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you kindly..
... for the barnstar and the feedback! Keep following the seals, and maybe some day they will rise in the estimation of a lemurologist out of the "grey area between low and mid importance", into that dusky place between "upper low and lower middling". I'll do my damndest! Eliezg (talk) 11:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Indri
I'm sure you have it watched, but just in case I've added a comment to the Indri talk. On an entirely separate issue, please note that reverts by WP:TW strictly is for vandalism. No offence was taken (and I am completely sure none was meant), but some might feel otherwise when having their non-vandalims edits reverted like that. Regardless, good work on the lemur articles. 212.10.95.14 (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Four Award

 * Thanks! If you want, you can always say, "And thus it begins..."  That's especially true for this article.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  12:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Congrats and Kudos. The article looks very nice. I enjoyed reading it today, but before I could support it, the FAC was closed :(. Anyway I am happy :) for the Lemurs of Madagascar - who must be thanking you and partying today. ;) -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Your comments were very helpful.  That was my first book article, and I had no idea what to expect.  Unlike other books that have plots and storylines to summarize, I wasn't sure what was sufficient for a field guide.  Best, –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  12:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Various things
I've been creating a few more articles on Madagascan mammals (working on Triaenops menamena now; bats are fun, because their taxonomy is exceedingly confused), but I have a few questions for you.

I'd like to make range maps on the basis of File:Madagascar range map template.svg, but it would be best to have them consistent with the ones you made, so I'd like to know how you did that (with Inkscape?). (I already made File:Triaenops distribution.png and File:Paratriaenops distribution.png from a different template, but both extend beyond the region your template covers.)

Also, I'm considering buying Garbutt's (2007) Mammals of Madagascar; do you have anything to say about that book? Ucucha 20:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Explaining how to create the maps in Inkscape would be difficult to do. It involves using layers—using a duplicate of the map layer, hand-drawing the range, merging it with the existing vector graphic, then changing the fill color.  As long as you don't have dozens to do, I could work from a PNG file and vectorize stuff for you.


 * As for the Mammals of Madagascar, it's a good book and I'm glad I have it. It's filled of nice, full-color photos and appears to offer lots of information about each group.  I have heard from writers in the field that Garbutt plagiarizes a lot, and I've noticed it when flipping between his book and other sources.  On a positive note, he cites his sources, so you can track them down.  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  20:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. To start with, I would like to have maps for Brachytarsomys, Nesomys, Hypogeomys, Plesiorycteropus, and Cryptoprocta spelea. I still have to get the data for that, though, but my sources have lists of collection localities.
 * Sounds good, I think I'll get the book. Ucucha 22:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * With subfossil species from Madagascar, just send me a list of subfossil sites and I can create a map like the ones used on Mesopropithecus, Babakotia, and Palaeopropithecus. If you have something more complex to replicate, just send me the article or a scan.  The more complicated the range map, the longer it will take to create.  The new range map for Fossa (animal), for instance, took me 3–4 hours.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  06:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Re: Paleoglobes
Should an incorrect labeling have crept in somewhere I'm sorry ;-) I deliberately limited the number of different maps, since I already had my fair share of argy-bargy with Commons and Wiki about what is "necessary" and what not ;-P In general I have two fields of interest (and thus contribution) on Wiki: Sciences (Planetology, Astronomy, Paleontology, Geosciences) and History/(Ethno-)Geography (European/German history, Languages and their distribution etc). Currently I'm more busy on the German Wiki and only tweaking some bits on linguistics here on the English one ;-) See you around, Mr. Dunkel (nice name btw :p )

Gilbert's lemurs
He kept them at his home at Grim's Dyke. Two of his lemurs mated (apparently to everyone's surprise), and the baby was named Paul. I don't have the two articles that are cited, but I saw them not long ago, and they have photos of the lemurs and are fairly detailed. I don't know how authoritative their claims were that Paul was the first bred in captivity. Both articles were printed in major British magazines of the day, but they are "society" pieces. Gilbert likely got that information from someone at the London Zoo or else from the animal dealer who helped him obtain his various imported pets. In any case, all I can suggest is to check London news databases from about 1905 to 1911, when Gilbert died. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can look up. This may be a hard fact to confirm, and due to its questionable nature, I'm not sure if I can or should include it.  But I will try!  Thanks.  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  22:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. It would be true to say that "according to The Strand magazine", it was the first one, or something like that (as I say, I no longer have the article, so I'm not exactly sure how the claim was phrased), but if you really think it's dubious and that Gilbert and Nancy McIntosh were mistaken, it's better not to say it at all.  All the best,  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Madagascar reserves
I'm currently writing about the bat Paratriaenops auritus, and its IUCN account says it occurs in a protected area, the Daraina forest. Bearing in mind what you told me yesterday, this may not be an easy question to answer, but do you know anything about this reserve? From the Golden-crowned Sifaka article, I got the impression that the forest at Daraina was not protected. Ucucha 19:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a reserve that's being run by Fanamby, which was set up in 2005 by Fanamby and CI. Re-check the Golden-crowned Sifaka article for details.  However, I don't know much about the reserve because only LoM has said anything about it.  This is what is has to say:

A new conservation site was just declared in the Daraina region in June 2005 thanks largely to the efforts of Association Fanamby, a Malagasy non-governmental organization, and Conservation International. This 20,000-ha protected area complex will be managed by Association Fanamby in collaboration with the Ministry of Water and Forests.
 * Fanamby has a website, and a page specifically about Daraina, but on a quick read, I didn't see any mention of the reserve. You also have to keep in mind what's been going on in this region.  Vohémar is nearby, and that's one of the big port cities for exporting illegally cut rosewood.  It's also were armed gangs have previously descended and poaching is reported to have escalated.  (For more info, please read Illegal logging in Madagascar.)  Needless to say, most of the conservation work since 2005 has largely been undone in this region, and support from the Ministry of Water and Forests is probably questionable at best.  But nothing can be said about it on Wiki because chaos is reigns in the area, people fear for their lives, and corruption has made its way into almost everything.  Even a lot of the NGOs are not releasing information, so it may be a while before we'll know what's really going on there. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  19:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that clarifies it a bit. I'll just say it's "a forest at Daraina", as there will be little chance of an article on Daraina forest. I understand that the consequences of anarchy can be grave for the fauna. And not only the lemurs; I recently read about Daraina as one of two localities for a recently described nesomyine, Eliurus carletoni. Triaenopine bats apparently roost in giant colonies in caves, and I imagine things can go wrong very quickly for them if those caves are disturbed. Ucucha 20:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A new paper on E. carletoni mentions the résèrve forestière de Loky-Manambato, apparently also near Daraina. Ucucha 20:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to know. I'm writing to Fanamby and my contacts within CI to see about getting both rights to use some pictures of cooked Golden-crowned Sifakas and to get the latest published information that they know of.  If I get my hands on anything, I'll let you know.  And if you really want, I can introduce you to one of my contacts at CI if you would find that useful.  Your willingness to write about Malagasy species is certain to spark some support. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  20:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer, but there's little need for that; I think I can get there with the literature I have access to. Steven Goodman and colleagues have reviewed most Malagasy bats over the last decade, so there's decent literature on each of them. It might be a good idea to ask Goodman to release some images of bats or other Malagasy mammals. Do you know him? Ucucha 21:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, sent you a reply in chat. Just look for it there when you have time. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  21:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Fossa (animal)
Materialscientist (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Elephant Bird
On Elephant Bird you re-assessed the article, and you knocked it down to a start. However, your explanation is rather vague. Maybe, to help others fix it, you could place on Elephant Birds Talk page a more detailed explanation for this downgrade. Thanks for your time. speednat (talk) 17:48, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not adding further detail. I'll add my comments shortly.  Lately I've been visiting a lot of articles on numerous topics that are rated B-class that have significant issues with citations and content, so I haven't gotten into the habit of leaving detailed notes.  (A lot of the times I feel the downgrades are pretty obvious, and that the higher class was probably assigned at a time when class assessment was more lax.)  Sorry for the hit-and-run.  Look for my comments shortly. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  17:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Fossa (animal)
Hi, I am reviewing this GA nomination of yours and have made some comments at Talk:Fossa (animal)/GA1. Thanks, <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 14:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The article has passed. A very nice article. Well done! Best wishes, <b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b> ( Talk ) 12:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

C. spelea
The giant fossa is now at FAC. Do you think I should add you as a co-nominator, in view of your contributions? Ucucha 14:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel my contributions were minimal compared to yours, but if it would make up for it, I could take a very active role in any clean-up requests during the FAC process. It's up to you.  Thanks for thinking of me.  I apologize for never offering the same with Lemur evolutionary history, given the amount of work you put into helping me figure out the pre-1950s history of the taxonomy. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  17:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI: I've tried writing to Steven M. Goodman to see if he can release a skull comparison photo for use on this article. I've managed to get a reply from Jörg Ganzhorn so far, but he told me that Steven would have to be the one to give permission.  It's been only two days and no reply, but I'm still crossing my fingers.  The photo would make a nice addition to the article. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  17:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, you wrote about 10% of the text and made the map; I think that's substantial enough. It would be great if we could get a picture of C. spelea, but Goodman may take some time to answer. I've heard he's often out in the field, and I imagine he's got better things to do there than releasing photos. :-) Ucucha 17:38, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Subfossil lemur
-- Cirt (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Krill FAR
Hi Visionholder! I am just stopping by to ask if you would like to visit the featured article review for Krill (the review page can be found at Featured article review/Krill/archive1)? An editor has done quite a bit of work on the article, but I would like to get the opinions of a couple of biology people who are active at FAC before I close the review. Thanks in advance if you have the time and interest; if not, no biggie! Dana boomer (talk) 01:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have added my comments. At this time, the article should fail.  However, I sincerely hope that someone on the notification list rises to the challenge and fixes the article.  All-in-all, it's pretty good.  I'd hate to see the article lose its star over issues that could be easily fixed by someone with the necessary resources and a few hours of free time. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  02:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the quick reply and review! I also want to join Philcha in congratulating you on the Madagascar mammals review - it's always great to see editors getting more involved in reviewing, whether it's at FAC, GAN, or elsewhere! Dana boomer (talk) 14:28, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Nice review
Nice job at Talk:Mesozoic_mammals of Madagascar/GA1. I didn't realize you were into paleo as well. And it was clever to choose an experienced nominator and reviewer! --Philcha (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I love paleo, although the descriptions of skulls and teeth baffle me from time to time.  (I really wish someone would write quality articles about dental gross morphology, shearing quotients, microwear, mesowear, and dental microstructure so that I can learn more about it and hopefully understand the terminology... as well as link to them when I discuss them in my own articles.)  At present, I do my own writing in paleo when I write articles on subfossil lemurs, such as Babakotia, Hadropithecus, and Mesopropithecus.  My current project is the article Subfossil lemur.  Someday, far into the future when I've finished my work on the lemur articles, I'm seriously thinking about tackling all the fossil primates and writing a primate evolution article. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  13:34, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * We may meet in the middle - I'm hoping to do Vertebrate, subjecting to priorities of course :-P --Philcha (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Questions
Do you think Faune de Madagascar merits an article?

Also, I was thinking we could eventually make (or I could make, if you prefer to keep to lemurs) a featured topic on Malagasy mammals in general. Below, I put one possibility of what that would look like. However, I'm not sure about many of the details. We have a list of lemur species, but I'm not sure about how to do that with some of the other major groups of mammals. For the euplerids, a list would probably be rightly considered a content fork. For the nesomyines and tenrecs, the species number is a bit higher, but I am not quite sure whether it would be a good idea to give them separate lists. I think it's possible to write a separate article Mammals of Madagascar, but I wonder whether we will also need List of mammals of Madagascar—especially when there are species lists for each of the subgroups. What do you think? Ucucha 18:49, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not familiar with Faune de Madagascar. What is its ISBN?  I have considered articles for The Natural History of Madagascar and The Primates of Madagascar.  However, the animals themselves need to come first, IMO.
 * As for your suggested topic, I'd be interested in helping, particularly with Malagasy hippopotamus and Tenrec. However, it might have to wait a little while.  My plate is rather full, and I'm having a hard time making any progress on anything as it stands now.  First I'll need to finish cleaning up the current C and B-class lemur articles and finish my Subfossil lemur topic.  I'm also in a rush to finish as much as I can before the publication of LoM3... which I'm sure will inspire many new editors to plagiarize or write extensive articles based on a single source.  If you don't mind waiting a few months, I'm fine with it.  Alternatively, we can try to work an article or two into my schedule from time to time.  Just let me know or try chatting with me about it through Gmail.  Anyway, I need sleep.  Catch you tomorrow. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  04:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Faune de Madagascar is a periodical,, also see here.
 * Any help is welcome, but I'd be happy if you keep to lemurs and I get to do the others. It'll be a long-term project anyway. But what I mainly wanted to ask you was what you think about the scope and organization of the topic—i.e., the problems I mentioned in my previous post. Ucucha 05:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Faune de Madagascar would probably make a good article, just as Lemur News would also. I haven't created an article on a periodical yet, and when I do Lemur News, it will probably be my first.  I don't know anything about Faune de Madagascar, so you're welcome to go after that one.
 * Like I said, I'll help on Malagasy hippopotamus and Tenrec when you get to them. The scope of the topic looks good, but the organization might have a few problems.  I was too tired last night to put my finger on it, but for starters, if you're going to simplify some names (such as "Bats"), then you should do the same for "Carnivores" and "Rodents".  I think "Lemurs" are generally understood enough (and associated strongly enough with the island), although I wouldn't object strongly if it were changed to "Primates".  Under "Lemur", I would suggest adding Subfossil lemur to make sure that people see it, but since they are listed on the List of lemur species, I won't be offended if you ignore the suggestion.  Anyway, let's start with that.  –   VisionHolder  « talk »  14:20, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I'll redlink it in a couple of bat articles (Faune de Madagascar's part on bats, from 1995, has been quite influential), and perhaps get around to writing it sometime. To me, it isn't really a simplification: I'm just listing the groups of Malagasy mammals, so euplerids, nesomyines, lemurs, tenrecs instead of carnivorans, rodents, primates, and afrosoricidans. "Bats" are listed with the name of the whole order, since there is no smaller group that could be listed. I think leaving out redundant parts of the title (like "of Madagascar"—the topic is about Madagascar, so we don't need to tell that) is OK, but piping an article to an entirely different title (like " Rodents ") is not. As for Subfossil lemur, I'd have no problem with including it, but I'm not sure whether the FT people would say the same. Ucucha 14:43, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with everything you said. I haven't been through FT yet, but hope to soon with the Subfossil lemur topic.  Like I said, I have no problem omitting Subfossil lemur from the list.  I just added a Main link to it in List of lemur species, and there is a See also link in Lemur.  Given extinct subfossil species of other groups are not listed separately, it may not be appropriate.  I was primarily thinking about the size of the group (~17 recently lost species).  The significance of that, plus their large size, resulted in the suggestion. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  14:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Central Highlands
Don't we need an article on Central Highlands (Madagascar)? (By the way, I noticed that you use both "central highlands" and "Central Highlands" in Subfossil lemur. I think the capitalized version is correct, since it is a defined biogeographical region; the literature also often (always?) capitalizes it.) Ucucha 11:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll change it to caps when I get to work. Otherwise, good question.  I think the proper name is "Hauts Plateaux", but I would have to do a little research to see which name is most frequently mentioned in the literature.  Hauts Plateaux is also already taken, so even if we used it, we would need to disambiguate. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  11:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops... I guess Hauts-Plateaux is taken. Either way, it may require disambiguation. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  11:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Central Highlands already has a respectable list. However, I've often seen "Central Highlands" in the literature, and I can't remember ever having seen "Hauts Plateaux" in English. There are some good rodent papers that discuss the Central Highlands and the distinct Northern Highlands (which is also already taken), which have distinct montane endemics. Ucucha 12:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, we should create the article you suggested, and possibly create a redirect for Hauts Plateaux (Madagascar), as well as all the proper disambiguation for both. I'm not sure what I'll have time for today because work at the bank will be busy (being a Friday), and then I have the restaurant job immediately after.  I won't be home until 1am tonight.  If you want to get started, I'll try to watch and help... maybe with the disambiguation. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  12:15, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I made short articles for Central Highlands and Northern Highlands. I might develop them into something more substantial later on (and you should of course also feel free to do so if you wish), but for now we at least have something to link to. Ucucha 07:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will add to them if I find something.  Honestly, I don't recall seeing "Northern Highlands" yet, but that might because I haven't seriously looked at any lemur species from there.  Maybe Lemurs of Madagascar has something about both areas...  Anyway, I'm backlogged with a promised GAC/FAC run for Silky Sifaka and a promised proposal based on one I started a while ago as WT:ASSESS.  I will try to get to it soon, though. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  13:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there are any Northern Highlands endemic lemurs. (Lemurs in general seem to be more usually lowland animals.) There's no real need for you to give it any high priority, or indeed to do much with it at all, I think. Good luck with the Silky; I'll have a look at your comments on T. menamena now. Ucucha 15:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. I will reply to your fixes when I get home from the DLC.  Got a tour to give and have to run.  I also have a post coming up at the village pump regarding article reading level.  Would you like me to send it to you in email first before posting it?  –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  16:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

ITN
I've left some comments on your nomination. Thanks.. --BorgQueen (talk) 12:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've replied and given the green light to make changes.  I will try to watch this nomination from work today. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  12:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

ITN for Saadanius
--BorgQueen (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikinews
I approved your article over there! I'm largely inactive on WN at the minute, but I saw your post on ITN/C and thought I'd take a trip over! HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   18:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! I appreciate your time and effort.  As stated in my last reply, I will do my best to return to ITN as primate-related news articles pop up. Best, –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  18:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Your signature
Can you please change your signature to something less garish? It's quite irritating, especially when used on project pages like WP:GAN. --erachima talk 16:19, 17 July 2010 (UTC) In order of irritation, the font selection is the worst offender (you've chosen the notoriously unprofessional and overused Comic Sans), followed by the shadowing, and finally the colors which are primarily annoying due to how poorly they go with the shadowing. --erachima talk 16:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)  VisionHolder  « talk »  would be much more legible. Fences &amp;  Windows  20:37, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Specifically, what part of the signature bothers you? The color?  The shadows?  The font?  I've seen a lot of colorful, decorative signatures, and at least mine is readable and uses generally tame colors. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  16:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "The color? The shadows?  The font?"
 * Yes.
 * I will consider changing it, but it is my signature, and it is at my discretion. Thank you for stating your concern. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  16:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think removing the shadow would help, it makes it lack contrast and it is hard to read as a result. This:
 * That does indeed help significantly, and also shortens the code by a substantial amount (3 full lines of edit window to 2). --erachima talk 02:15, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's interesting that you say the shadow makes it harder to read, when for me, the shadow helps make the relatively bright colors stand out against the white background. Anyway, I've removed that shadow and "offending" font (which happens to be my favorite).  I did it more to cut down on the size of the signature than anything. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 15:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Article rating systems
Please don't get upset about Village_pump_(proposals). I expected you most enjoying working on articles, and other tasks as just chores to be endured from time to time - that's how I feel. I was also about to comment on the discourtesy shown to you by another editor, but that editor has already shown further discourtesy. In the UK, where I live, there's a saying, "don't let the bastards wear you down". --Philcha (talk) 19:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm just irritated because I want to help make Wiki appear more professional. I put a lot of hard work into the stuff I write, and I know other people do, too.  Some of us editors are academics.  Needless to say, we often get frowned upon for contributing to such as "unreliable resource".  My goal is to make the articles I'm interested in reliable, and it would be nice if everyone else cared as much, not just about the content, but Wiki's image to both the public and the academics.  Wiki has so much potential, but each time I try to get involved in policy, I feel like I'm a new editor all over again... mostly because there are so many unspoken rules, obscure guidelines, and mixed opinions out there.  But if I don't try to fix it, who will?  I haven't seen much progress in the years I've watched and contributed to Wiki.  –  VisionHolder  « talk » 15:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a Barn...

 * Thanks. I must admit I borrowed the general code, but did a lot of tweaking. –   VisionHolder  «  talk  »  04:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Still awesome :) You're Welcome :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 04:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Malagasy Nature
Do you know the journal Malagasy Nature and/or a way to get access to it? I need an article published there to write on Miniopterus majori (the only Malagasy Miniopterus without cryptic species in it, apparently). There is a publication announcement here and I e-mailed the organization that runs the journal, but I'm not sure how successful that will be. Ucucha 18:52, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've heard of it. I don't have access to it, but I can ask around.  It might take me a week or two, though...  Also, thanks for handling the debate on the Saadanius talk page.  I don't know how I managed to miss that this morning. I'll try to join in next. –   VisionHolder  « talk »  18:58, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem if it takes some time. The relevant article is:


 * Maminirina, C.P., Appleton, B., Bradman, H.M., Christidis, L. and Goodman, S.M. 2009. Variation morphométrique et moléculaire chez Miniopterus majori (Chiroptera: Miniopteridae) de Madagascar. Malagasy Nature 2:127–143.
 * (Goodman seems to have a tendency to publish his results in obscure journals when he doesn't find new species. There is also a paper on Hipposideros commersoni in the journal of the Hamburg Natural History Society or something like that that I still need to look up.) Ucucha 19:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just received the paper and a few others from the journal's Editor in Chief. Ucucha 06:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice! Sorry I haven't been able to get anything on this for you. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 11:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Ring-tailed Lemur refs
Is there a reason you switched the reference format on Ring-tailed Lemur? I was looking at the FA criteria a few days ago and they didn't seem to indicate that a particular style was needed or preferred, just that it be consistent. But I am not sure if I missed some change that may be relevant to another article I am trying to get to FA. Rlendog (talk) 03:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not needed per the FA requirements, but I am trying to make all the lemur articles I write consistent. I like the LDR approach because it keeps the text clean and easier to read when editing.  In the references section, I include links and brief explanations of how references are used on the page.  The change is also for me—the article no longer meets FA requirements (in my opinion), so in the very near future I plan to re-vamp it again, but that's a lot easier to do if I'm not chasing down references and staring at lines and lines of reference code just to carefully insert major and minor facts into an article that already flows together. I hope that's okay with you. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 03:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Rlendog (talk) 01:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Haha
Read your page, and it's one of the few where I'm compelled to read the whole thing on my own time. Mmm, lemurs. So, you're a zookeeper or what? :) Anyway I'm here to ask if your comments here are still standing, if they are not you should enclose them in a tag and note that they are withdrawn. <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar  13:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I will have another look tonight and see what's happened. I was partly waiting to see if other reviewers made similar comments, and some did.  As for me, I've volunteered with several zoos and gone to a special school to become a zoo keeper, but there's only one animal facility that I want to work at, and I just have to wait until a job opens up.  It doesn't help that there's a lot of competition for those jobs, too. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 13:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh please, you should put your Wikipedia page on your resume; it would prove to them how fanatical you are :) (and your long list of Lemur FAs too). <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar 03:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They know about my Wiki work... for better or for worse. I'm not entirely sure, although several higher-ups there praise the work highly.  Others I'm not so sure.  Are you trying to poke fun, and if so, what's the deal?  Do you guys always provoke the people who try to help review your articles, or only the ones who don't give you an immediate thumbs-up?  Anyway, I'm trying to review the comments on the FAC in question right now.  Sorry for the delays.  I just got a 3rd job, so I won't be on Wiki much over the next week or two as I transition between jobs.  I will try to follow through with this review, though. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 03:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I'm just saying you're one of the most interesting personalities I've met around here. Please, no hostility! We have too much of that lately. Also, I'm not directly involved with the article. All I've done is copyedit it and remove redundant references...<span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar 15:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Visionholder was one of my earliest buddies, ResMar. And now he's gone off and written more FAs than me. See what you have to live up to? ;) You can't find a nicer, more committed person around. ;)  ceran  thor 19:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words, Ceran. It means a lot today. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 19:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies, ResMar. I misread the tone of your posts, and given you responses and background in geology, I thought you were helping with the review as part of a WikiProject.  I'm also a bit stressed in real life... partly because of my quest for a job at the lemur center.  (I keep getting "promised" positions, then get the rug pulled out from underneath me... all while I struggle financially with crappy odd jobs.) –  VisionHolder  « talk » 19:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like it bites. Are you sure they're not just taking you as free-intern-for-granted? There was an article in SciAm about worries that employers are using interns for free labor...anyway, glad to be of your aquantiance :) <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar 02:37, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I suppose I owe you one, so bother me if you need a review sometime :) <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar 02:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't want to say too much in a public place, but I know there are some people there that are fighting really hard for me, and others that I'm not so sure about. There's also a line of other good people looking for jobs there, so I realize that it can take a while.  Anyway, no problem.  My Wiki writing has slowed considerably lately due to my other responsibilities.  If you see something, feel free to swing by.  I'm sure we'll see more of each other in the future.  Best, –  VisionHolder  « talk » 03:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, I'm treading personal ground here, sorry...cheers anyway :) <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:black;">Res</b> Mar 04:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Salanoia
Apparently, a new species of euplerid, Salanoia durrelli, has just been published; it's from the Lake Alaotra area. It's covered on Tetrapod Zoology, but I haven't been able to locate the actual paper yet. I'd like to write the article soon and get it on ITN—if I can find the description, that is. Ucucha 19:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I got it. Ucucha 19:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Very cool! I can't wait to read your article. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 19:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's there now. Do you have Garbutt (1999) by any chance? According to Tet Zoo, it contains rumors of a carnivore at Alaotra, which would be a nice addition to the article. Garbutt (2007) actually says that S. concolor has been found at Alaotra. Ucucha 21:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I just have the 2007 edition, which is probably the same one you recently bought. Sorry.  And speaking of refs, is there a way that I can find some more abstracts like the ones I had sent you without having you do the search?  Apparently I missed a quite a few in that list, but I don't want to bug you if its something I can do. Otherwise, I'm off to read your article now! –  VisionHolder  « talk » 22:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I just pasted the titles into Google and went down the results; they were generally pretty far down. I'll look for '99 in the library. Thanks for the review; I'll be responding soon. Ucucha 04:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried Google, but didn't go far down the list because the number of matching words started dropping off rapidly. I will try again shortly. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 11:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You got my e-mail, right? The others are probably at the same website. Ucucha 11:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, would you be able to make a range map for Salanoia (if you have time)? There is a map in the Durbin et al. paper with what's supposed to be all known records. Ucucha 05:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mind. But first, let me see if I can finish cleaning up the Silky Sifaka article tonight and possibly tomorrow night.  I should have time in about 2 or 3 days.  If I need a mental break, I may start it earlier.  Is that okay? –  VisionHolder  « talk » 11:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, no problem; there's no haste. I plan to also expand the article on S. concolor (currently Polbot stub-class). Good luck on finishing Silky. Ucucha 11:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK for The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates
Courcelles 12:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Frugivore
Ok, but please do clarify it. Chrisrus (talk) 05:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... I did. Did you look at the edit?  If it's not better, feel free to tweak the sentence. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 13:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

25 Most Endangered
I've tried to get together the reports so far (including those already cited in the article): You already got most of those, I guess. I think they, together with Red List accounts should be sufficient to get the essential information (distribution and threats) for all of the formerly listed species. Ucucha 21:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 2000 ("2000–2002")
 * Report: http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/NP8.1.pdf – Mittermeier, R. A., W. R. Konstant and A. B. Rylands. 2000. The world’s top 25 most endangered primates. Neotropical Primates 8(1): 49.
 * Brief species accounts (in Time, no less): http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,995842,00.html
 * 2002 ("2002–2004")
 * Report: http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/NP10.3.pdf – Mittermeier, R. A., W. R. Konstant, A. B. Rylands, T. M. Butynski, A. A. Eudey, J. U. Ganzhorn and R. Kormos. 2002. The world’s top 25 most endangered primates – 2002. Neotropical Primates 10(3): 128–131. Reprinted in Lemur News (8): 6–9. (I have a paper version of this issue of Neotropical Primates.)
 * Species accounts are supposed to be at http://www.conservation.org/xp/CIWEB/newsroom/press_releases/100702, but the page is no longer there and is unavailable at the Internet Archive.
 * 2006 ("2004–2006")
 * Report, including species accounts: http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/PC20.peril.pdf – Mittermeier, R. A., C. Valladares-Pádua, A. B. Rylands, A. A. Eudey, T. M. Butynski, J. U. Ganzhorn, R. Kormos, J. M. Aguiar and S. Walker (eds.). 2006. Primates in peril: the world’s 25 most endangered primates 2004–2006. Primate Conservation (20): 1–28. (Which I also happen to have in a paper version.)
 * 2007 ("2006–2008")
 * Report, including species accounts: http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/PC22.v2.pdf – Mittermeier, R. A., J. Ratsimbazafy, A. B. Rylands, E. A. Williamson, J. F. Oates, D. Mbora, J. U. Ganzhorn, E. Rodríguez-Luna, E. Palacios, E. W. Heymann, M. C. M. Kierulff, Long Yongcheng, J. Supriatna, C. Roos, S. Walker and J. M. Aguiar. 2007. Primates in peril: the world’s 25 most endangerPrimate Conservation (22): 1–40.
 * 2008 ("2008–2010")
 * Report, including species accounts: http://www.primate-sg.org/PDF/Primates.in.Peril.2008-2010.pdf – Mittermeier, R.A.; Wallis, J.; Rylands, A.B. et al., eds (2009) (PDF). Primates in Peril: The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates 2008–2010. Illustrated by S.D. Nash. IUCN/SSC Primate Specialist Group (PSG), International Primatological Society (IPS), and Conservation International (CI). pp. 1–92. ISBN 978-1-934151-34-1.
 * I'm now checking the taxonomy in the old reports. It seems that the most recent report actually got it wrong at least a few times: they list "Propithecus candidus" even for 2000, but the report actually gives Propithecus diadema candidus. I'm not sure whether you intended the list under The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates to use historical or current names—I will use current. Ucucha 21:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll finish my check tomorrow; I need to go to sleep now. Ucucha 22:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for finding the old files! I should probably archive those soon, in case they get deleted.  Thank you for also making the corrections.  I would try to see where you left off, but I need to revamp my resume and write a cover letter for a job opening at the Duke Lemur Center, and then I need to get sleep before my next 14-hour day.  Hopefully I will be back on Wiki at my normal capacity in the next few days. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 02:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I went on ahead and checked the list for the 2002 report and skimmed the 2004 report, making only one correction. If you want to more thoroughly check 2004, 2006, and 2008, feel free.  Otherwise I will try to take a look on Monday night... assuming I don't get assigned to work. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 02:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I got only halfway through 2000, but I'll continue for the rest. Ucucha 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There's one more... complexity. 2004–2006 lists Ateles hybridus brunneus "Brown spider monkey" and 2006–2008 and 2008–2010 list Ateles hybridus "Variegated spider monkey". A. h. brunneus is one of two subspecies of this species, and the 2006–2008 and 2008–2010 listings apparently cover both subspecies. I think we should remove brunneus from the "Formerly listed" table and add a footnote to the main list to clarify that the 2004 listing of Ateles hybridus applied only to subspecies brunneus. Ucucha 17:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for all the extra help and the quick copyedit. Anything else? –  VisionHolder  « talk » 18:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes: distributions and threats for the former list members; I don't see why they shouldn't be there. Ucucha 18:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll have to go back and look at the other reports, but I believe only the most recent report summarized the threats in a table. The first two or three reports probably won't list any threats at all, and the second most recent probably only describes the threats in the text description for each species.  Is it worth adding this to the history table if there hasn't be consistency historically? –  VisionHolder  « talk » 18:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think so; it also helps make the Wikipedia page into an independently useful resource. You could also use the Red List accounts of these species. Ucucha 19:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. However, we need to be consistent.  For that table, and that table only, should I just use the IUCN Red List for the list of threats?  The threats can also change over time, so the former members table may list threats that were not concerns at the time they were listed.  The clearer you can spell out your expectations, the better I'll be able to satisfy them.  I'll try to find time later this evening to make the changes you're requesting. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 19:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope there's more that matters than just what I want. But I think it may be best to use current (Red List) threats, since you also use current conservation status. Ucucha 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong—the expansion is merited for many reasons. I was just worried about consistency.  But since the IUCN Red List generally provides the same details given in the reports, I was able to not only provide a list of threats, but also data for the columns from the primary table.  Feel free to look it over and tell me if I missed something or made any typos. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 02:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks; looking good. Ucucha 08:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Lemur taxonomy
Hi Visionholder, I noticed you added this ref in Lemur and Lemur evolutionary history, should this be added and in List of lemur species too? And another question, in List of lemur species, although there is a main template in "Extinct species" section linking to subfossil lemur, there isn't any such link in the lead (only subfossil is linked). Do you think a link there would be appropriate? Thank you in advance!--<font color="#082567">Egmontaz  ♤  talk  07:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As always, good catch! I've added the new ref to the table.  As for the Main template, I placed it in the "Extant species" species section, rather than in the lead for consistency.  Does that look alright?  –  VisionHolder  « talk » 16:40, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes that's good too! :) Though I meant a link to subfossil lemur, instead of "... the largest known subfossil lemur ..." -> "... the largest known subfossil lemur ...". Regards. --<font color="#082567">Egmontaz  ♤  talk  19:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahh... I see. Yes, I made the change.  Sorry, I keep misunderstanding your comments... mostly because I've been trying to catch up on sleep this week, and I keep making the mistake of checking Wiki either right before a nap or immediately after I wake up.  Thanks for your patience! –  VisionHolder  « talk » 20:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You are mentioned
FCDW/3000. Cheers, <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:#731A25;">Res</b> Mar 00:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting! We've come a long way. Thanks! –  VisionHolder  « talk » 03:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was pretty akward when I had to mention my own name in the midst of it :) <span style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"><b style="color:#731A25;">Res</b> Mar 17:24, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates
I see you're the one that mostly has been involved in this article so I'm posting it here. There is a minor inaccuracy in the sections 'Former list members' and 'List history'. The Black-headed Spider Monkey in its entirety was not listed in 2006. Only Ateles f. fusciceps (Brown-headed Spider Monkey) was listed, comparable to the listing of Trachypithecus p. poliocephalus in various years. I guess the problem happened because they only used the species name (A. fusciceps) in the 2008 list when trying to explain why it was not included again, but they did specify by calling it the Ecuadorean spider monkey (Ateles f. fusciceps only known for certain from Ecuador, but according to IUCN may also occur in adjacent SW Colombia). I would have corrected it, but I'm not sure how to deal with the threats section in the table, which currently deals with both subspecies. There's not any photos of the real subspecies on wiki. All, including the one currently used in the table, are the marginally more common A. f. rufiventris. 212.10.95.14 (talk) 15:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing out the error. If I get a chance, I will try to take a look at this when I get home from work late tonight.  Feel free make the corrections you know of.  The threats list for former members was taken from the IUCN Red List page for the species or subspecies.  Since subspecies are listed on their own individual page, I'm sure we can look up the subspecies and adjust the list (and the citation).  If you're certain about the picture showing the wrong subspecies, feel free to remove it as well.  I'm more of a lemur person.  I don't have as many sources for the other primates, so I had to stick to what the IUCN listed in their publications. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 16:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright... I've made the changes. Let me know if I missed anything. Again, thanks for catching it! –  VisionHolder  « talk » 03:22, 9 September 2010 (UTC)