User talk:Maleschreiber/Archive

Removal of cited content
Hi,


 * 1) You performed massive changes of cited content diff in Hoti (tribe) without first discussing them on the talkpage. That is against wikipedia policies.
 * 2) When your bold addition is reverted, you edit warred instead of discussing it to gain consensus, that is also against wikipedia policies

All that actions were aimed to change clearly presented assertion, well cited with sources authored by Albanophiles such as Elsie and Durham. The assertion about Hoti descending from Bosnia per their own oral tradition and replacing it with eluded version. Please be so kind to restore the original wording. Best regards.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello, if you read the two versions you'll see that I haven't removed anything. I've expanded and improved that by 17k. There is no massive change of cited content because there was no content in the first place. As to the point you're making, Durham recorded a story, told to her by an old man (she later learned that he was Marash Uci) that they came from Bosnia. This is in the article word by word, exactly as Durham describes it. Now, other people traveled through the region too and recorded other traditions like Johan Georg von Hahn. In the meantime, scholarship evolved and more archival sources became available and even Durham changed her mind about some points 20 years later. I've used the bibliography in the way the guidelines of wikipedia say that I should do. If you disagree with something I've added from that 17k of content, you should do so with bibliography that contradicts what I've written, but I don't see any disagreement in our discussion. I really mean that. If you read what Durham (1908) says and what I've written - it's really exactly that.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:25, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Shllaku
Hello talk. I have just deleted some points which were written politicaly by Serbian authors of the 19th century with the aim, to claim Albanian lands. The reality is that i am studying the Albanian tribes and i am just making true correction, which is based on History. Cheers :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bensola97 (talk • contribs) 18:06, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm working on Hoti (tribe) if you'd like to take a look. I plan to finish it and then move to other articles about tribes. If you need any specific bibliography, you can also check the one I've used on Hoti. Are you maybe planning to concentrate on just one article? I think this is the best way to learn and also help wikipedia by writing better articles. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that i have a lot of articles and books about the tribes of Albania and in generally about Albanians. But always when i put something on Wikipedia, someone delete it without any reason. Because that in the last time i am not editing so much, but just little things.
 * Bensola97, since you are a new editor you might want to focus on non-controversial stuff for some time, till you gain more experience. A good practice is to mostly, if not always, use sources published by Western universities. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:58, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The reality is that most good bibliography in Albanian is offline or behind a paywall. Most bibliography in English is not specialized to deal with subjects like Albanian tribal structure. Some is emerging as we're speaking by some younger historians-archaeologists-anthropologists. So we're left with some articles in Albanian local websites that mostly deal with their subjects in a "journalistic" way, so they're usually not that good as bibliography. The other way to get proper bibliography in Albanian (in English it usually doesn't exist for topics like this one) is to dig through the Albanian internet history. In the case of Shllaku, this little forum has uploaded many - frankly good! - articles from writers, historians, locals etc. maybe you should pick a subject that has some depth and start reading/writing about it. --Maleschreiber (talk) 17:55, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with the concerns you raise about the issues one might need to deal with while writing Albanian articles. It is in some cases rather difficult, if not virtually impossible, to find proper sources online. However, as you pointed out, new Albanian scholars and researchers are producing good stuff that can be found avaiable online. Step by step the situation should improve. In any case, if you need a source, let me know as maybe I can be of help. Cheers and keep up the good work, Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you!--Maleschreiber (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

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Source deletion
This massive source deletion [] on Koja e Kuçit was performed by Zoupan, a banned sockpuppet of the permabanned user Ajdebre. As such it can be reverted at will. However the revert must be manual due to intervening edits... and I am on my phone and will be too busy tomorrow likely. Could you handle it? Thanks a bunch. Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 09:53, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Second note: not all the sources Ajdebre deleted should be restored. For example, one was Lonely Planet, a travel guide.--Calthinus (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Koći, the historical (nowadays, it's basically abandoned except for the summer months) settlement of Koja is an even bigger problem. The article is based on a 1892 Serbian interpretation of the 1485 defter and then Erdeljanović (1913), who is really just making assumptions based on the Serbian canonical interpretation, but it has no basis when you go through the actual document and take into account the politics of the era that framed his writing.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:06, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Traces of bilingualism, characteristic to the greatest degree of Montenegrin inhabitants of Kuce, Fundine, Orahovo, Zeta, Mataguzi, and so on, are disappearing right now. Erdeljanovic's resistance to traces of symbiosis as relevant facts of the Erdeljanovic's resistance to traces of symbiosis as relevant facts of the joint origin of certain tribes of Montenegro with the Malisors did not stick out like a sore thumb to Cvijic, who was not well inclined toward the Albanian inhabitants either." (FBIS Daily Report: East Europe, Issues 31-39, 1995)--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

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Map of the tribes
Hi Maleschrieber, hope I don't bother you.

I encounter some difficulties with the creation of the map, I wanted to draw the Shoshi tribe but I noticed that the section of its geography was unsourced. I think I will start with the reproduction of this following map: before creating the actual map since not all tribal regions are sourced yet. N.Hoxha (talk) 03:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, I used the excellent Prelë Milani (2011), Shoshi: gjeografia, gjenealogjia, historia as bibliography. I will also add in the article. Maybe you could start with a "clean" google map. I think it'll be easier because you'll be able to set regional boundaries based on settlement location. I can send you the book (.pdf) if you mail me via wikipedia.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Oheri
Your recent edit on Ghegs made me curious. If the Gheg/Lek boundary is the modern Mat/Mirdita boundary, then what about the parts of historic Mirdita which currently are administered by Mat -- i.e. Ulez and Baz communes, roughly, the Kthella tribe, the Austrian district of Oheri? Checking the page Mirdita, it seems -- I figure you added this -- the Oheri region consisting of the Selita, Kthella and Bushkashi tribal territories seceded from the (mostly Muslim) Mat region to join (Catholic) Mirdita. Today Oheri is divided between Mirdita and Mat, but I was curious on the nature of the Gheg/Lek boundary -- i.e. is it tribally defined so it "moved" when Oheri joined Mirdita, or is it something else? --Calthinus (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a geographical boundary, it's not related to tribal regions. Another "popular" generalization is that which equates all northern Albanian social organization to a tribal mode of production-reproduction. Gegnia proper, part of Leknia, the coastal areas (fushat bregdetare), even parts of Malësia e Gjakovës in historical times were basically non-tribal. I'll mail you Etnografia shqiptare vol. 1 to check the entire chapter, it's very interesting. I cited it via GB on Gegs because I don't remember where I found the full scan.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

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Removal of cited content 2
Hi, I noticed you continue to remove cited content in massive undiscussed changes, such as with this change (diff). Please be so kind to revert yourself and stop with this kind of disruptive behavior.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You created a section in my talkpage to ask me to revert myself because I removed cited content. What I removed was marked as unreferenced since December 2012. In the most literal way possible, that is the opposite of your accusation as disruptive behavior. I know my subject field and I am interested in improving it on wikipedia. That sentence was marked as unreferenced since December 2012, so I removed it. If you are so sure of that event, why haven't you added the appropriate bibliography in the 7 years that have passed since then?--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Update Map
Hi, I added some tribes on the map, but the Berisha and Toplana are not completely correct since I don't have access to the maps of the Njesi Administrative of Shkoder. I found all the administrative unit maps of Kukes county on its official website (for example ) but not those of the other counties. Could you help me find those maps, I searched on governmental websites but I only found maps of the communes and not their subdivisions. N.Hoxha (talk) 20:38, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Great! This map might help you. For Berisha, start from Berisha i Vendit, along its eastern boundary (use google maps) upwards to the eastern border of Lëvoshë (you will find its boundaries on google maps). Also, what data did you use about Shoshi, I think that it's probably smaller than that. The Shkodra map will also help with the boundary between Kelmendi and Shala. Do you use coordinates for your maps? It might make it easier for you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I already have that map, it's not what I'm talking about. I need the map of the subdivisions of each commune, because I don't know from the map you sent where, for example, the outer borders of Berisha e Vogel are within the Iballë commune. When I type Berisha i Vendit on google maps, I only found this. For the Shoshi, Shala and Kelmendi region I used google maps. I'm not working with coordinates. N.Hoxha (talk) 11:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Edits to the article on the Ghegs
Hey, you reverted my edit because you disagreed with my characterizing the Ghegs as an ethnic group. I've got two issues with that.


 * First, the reference to Eberhardt, which was already attached to the sentence, describes Ghegs and Tosks as two ethnic subgroups.


 * Second, my edit did more than change "dialectal sub-" to "ethnic." It also brought the description of their geographic locale further up within the lead and pushed mention of the Tosks further down. Both of these are improvements to the lead because this article is about the Ghegs, rather than about subroups of Albanians.

I propose to restore my version with the tweak of changing "ethnic group" to "ethnic subgroup," which is exactly Eberhardt's description.

Any heartburn?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 19:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for taking interest in the subject first of all!! It's much more complex than that, because there are no Ghegs in the way a non-Albanian may perceive it via WP:TERTIARY sources like the one you cited - a footnote really. In the terminology section right below it is explained that Geg is the regional self-definition used by people who live just north of the Shkumbin river. It's not used by most of the Albanian tribes because they live in Malësia and call themselves Malësorë or they are part of the Dukagjin highlands etc. Thus, the reference to Ghegs in the broad sense as in the article is in the form of dialectal grouping, not a regional one. Frankly, the article has been written on the basis of tertiary bibliography that deals with the subject very superficially. Some time ago I started a cleanup but got caught up with other stuff and never got to replace tertiary sources with specialized secondary bibliography. In the past few years, the dominant book in the field of anthropology in the studies is M. Galaty (2013). It's worth the read and explains many aspects of the subject. I opted for dialectal sub-group because it both describes the actual division and is preferred in secondary bibliography: While the distinction between the dialect regions of the north and south continue to demarcate the two major cultural and dialect groups of Albanians, during this century the significance of the other regional groupings has decreased.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I guess I'm ok with keeping it as "dialectal," but then we should delete the reference that says otherwise. NB, the reference was pre-existing in the article before I ever even encountered the term Gheg (which was only yesterday (!) when I saw | an article at npr.org about somebody named Dua Lipa and got curious). But maybe there's a third way: the sentence you quote just above describes them as not only dialect groups but also "cultural." That seems a better thing to put in the first sentence of the lead because this article is not focused on linguistics, or even on sociolinguistics, but on culture.
 * Hello. IMO the first sentence is best left as is. The Ghegs are a sub-group of Albs. They are primarily defined by the dialect they speak. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

And the second point... my other changes to the lead stand on their merits. They make it better organized and clearer. And as to Ktrimi991's point, my version still flags that the primary distinction between Ghegs and Tosks is dialect.

So I have a revised proposal: restore my version, but with "ethnic group" changed to "cultural group." If you don't like that, then what would you counterpropose?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, hope you're well! So the quote above refers to speakers of Geg Albanian in Albania in terms of linguistic culture. The term Geg like the term Tosk (its soutern counterpart) is actually more exclusive than inclusive of speakers of these two broad dialectal categories. So, Dua Lipa a speaker of Geg Albanian from Lipë in Kosovo does not share the same regional culture with someone from Dibra or Shkodra (two distinct northern regions with Albania's borders) anymore than with someone from Elbasan in central Albania. The similarity is basically linguistic. It might be a bit confusing. One reason for the confusion is due to the material itself. It is difficult to structure the Albanian society into orderly categories. Under the heading of tribal society is concealed a substantial variety of social forms which differ both territorially and historically. You're right about bibliography. It's mainly from other encyclopedias instead of secondary bibliography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:06, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I and mine are fine; thanks for asking. Very odd times indeed. But how about you?

Yeah, I'd gotten the sense that the subject matter itself would scuttle any attempt at neat and tidy description. But soldier on I must, to make the article as understandable as the facts will allow. So how about my version (the one you reverted) but with "ethnic group" changed to "linguistic, and to a lesser extent, cultural group"? If you don't like that, then what would you counterpropose?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that our discussion is interesting because it highlights that social-cultural categories that may seem rather clear to me as a local, may sound confusing to someone who is not a local. For example, to me dialectal is the same as linguistic, but I think that dialectal is a more accurate term because it highlights where regions differ from each other. Dialect in general is the only visible marker by which an Albanian would be able to distinguish from what region another Albanian is, but it is not a unifying factor among dialects that are closer to each other than with other dialects.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:21, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

So how about my version (the one you reverted) but with "ethnic group" changed to "linguistic, and to a lesser extent, cultural group"? If you don't like that, then what would you counterpropose?—PaulTanenbaum (talk) 12:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Cem (river)
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Cem (river) you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of AhmadLX -- AhmadLX (talk) 21:40, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh this is great!! This is a small river in Albania and Montenegro, so more than half of the bibliography is either in Albanian or Montenegrin. You may need the translation of inline citations to verify some key features. I'll try to provide the needed translations as quickly as possible.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:50, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, your effort in improving the article is appreciable. I will call Mr. Google Translate for the translation stuff ;) However, a lot still remains to be referenced. One of the core criteria for GAs is verifiability. Please make sure that everything is sourced with a reliable source; language of the source doesn't matter much. When it is done, I will assess other criteria. Have fun.-- AhmadLX-(Wikiposta ) 22:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The three studies that I've used the most in non-English bibliography are:

--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Jelena Marojević (2014), Mapping of common action plan for trans-border protection of Cem, a study prepared by the environmental protection institute GreenHome for the municipalities of Kelmendi and Tuzi under the financial support of the EU.
 * Saidjon Kodhelaj (2019), Environmental Assessment Plan of Hydropower Station "Ura e Tamarës", a study published by the National Environmental Agency (the equivalent of US EPA) of the Ministry of Energy of Albania
 * Study for the protection of the natural momunent "Cijevne Kanjon" by the Environmental Protection Agency of Montenegro for the Municipality of Tuzi.

Your GA nomination of Cem (river)
The article Cem (river) you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Cem (river) for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of AhmadLX -- AhmadLX (talk) 22:00, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Cem (river)
The article Cem (river) you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Cem (river) for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of AhmadLX -- AhmadLX (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Standard WikiProjectAlbania Invitation
Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:30, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

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April 2020
Please note, WP:BLP applies to the recently deceased as well. Khirurg (talk) 00:24, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I wrote what all news reports had to say about this person. If bibliography confirms that he had such political links, why is it a problem to mention them?--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not "bibliography", it's Albanian tabloids. There is no way we are going to have this in the article, even with attribution. WP:BLP is non-negotiable, and also exempt from 3RR. Khirurg (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If Fox News considers it important to mention what Albanian media have to say, then you can't editorialize and remove it. You can't remove what Albanian media have to say because you consider them tabloids. Also, I can find the same exact claim by the Albanian Prime Minister. You've also removed something that is undisputed: Kathimerini says that he had extreme right-wing affiliations. You also removed the official position of the Albanian police "per BLP". So, yeah, you made a revert that doesn't pass BLP criteria even closely because you didn't want the article to mention Kacifas's politics and what led him to do what he did.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you read BLP? The standards for including any kind of information that is even remotely defamatory are very high. The material you are trying to add is clearly defamatory, and the criteria are not met. It is also a quite obvious attempt at poisoning the well, in that it is an attempt to justify what happened. Khirurg (talk) 01:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've chosen to ask the community instead of getting into a two-party dispute.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Please be careful about what you say to people. Some remarks, such as your addition to User talk:Dr.K. can easily be misinterpreted, or viewed as harassment. Wikipedia is a supportive environment, where contributors should feel comfortable and safe while editing. Thank you. Dr.  K.  13:28, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Asking you to not edit war is not a harassment.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * It is if you consider I was fixing your inept English text you added to the article. I was not edit-warring. I was copyediting your bad text. There is a huge difference. If you don't understand that, you have no place editing here. Dr.   K.  13:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You were reverting and you were notified about it. The admins who will assess your edits, will decide if you were "copy-editing" An admin also notified you recently for related behavior, but you removed that from your talkpage too, so I just notified you in case you resume edit-warring after the 3R-cycle rests itself. Also know that you can't claim "BLP violation" in this case because What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.. So, you should know that you may be blocked for 3RR violation even if you resume reverting after the reset, because that can be seen as gaming the system and circumventing them just so you can continue reverting. I will place that on your talkpage too in order to make this as formal as possible.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

May 2020
Khirurg (talk) 01:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Given you prior history with me
I strongly suggest you don't come to my talk again. If you fail to heed this warning, I will seek admin intervention. -- Dr.  K.  01:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm obliged by WP:3RR to advise you to slow it down when you reach 3 reverts and if you don't slow it and make more reverts, then I should report you. Now, if I don't explain to you first that you've reached a maximum number of reverts but I report you after you reach 4RR - it's against how 3RR works. I don't think that you can ask an admin intervention for something like that because what you're saying in effect is that I should never put forward issues that may exist with your editorial conduct in the context of edit-warring, first to you and then the community. But do what looks right to you if that situation arises again, although the best practice for every editor is really to not make that many reverts. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * No. you got it wrong, or you are pretending that you don't understand. You don't have any obligation to warn me about 3RR if you know that I know about the rule. You have discussed 3RR regarding my involvement in edit-wars in the past on noticeboards and you even left me a 3RR warning on my talk before. Therefore, it is well-established that I know about 3RR and you know that from multiple sources. As such, you have no business coming to my talk to warn me about a rule that you know well that I know very well. This is pure WP:HARASSMENT. I repeat: Given your prior harassment of me, do not come to my talk ever again. Otherwise, I will ask for admin assistance. Dr.   K.  02:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be placing this discussion/comment of yours in my archive subpage then if any 3RR situation comes up.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive Canvassing attempt
Posting non-neutral notifications from irrelevant talkpages in order to selectively notify editors (i.e. those from talk:Illyrians) that I'm promoting fringe in Molossians (as you did here []) consist violation of wp:CANVASSING, wp:NPA and complete lack of wp:AGF. Kindly saying that's the last warning before admin intervention.Alexikoua (talk) 07:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)