User talk:Mamadancer

Managing a conflict of interest
Hello, Mamadancer. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:


 * avoid editing or creating articles about yourself, your family, friends, colleagues, company, organization, clients, or competitors;
 * propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (you can use the request edit template);
 * disclose your conflict of interest when discussing affected articles (see Conflict of interest);
 * avoid linking to your organization's website in other articles (see Spam);
 * do your best to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. Kpddg  (talk)  14:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Skeeter Zachary Reece
I'm looking for sources and have found some that may be of use. What is primarily wanted are a few that are at the same time WP:RS, independent of the subject and about the subject in some detail, so anything you can think of in that direction is prio 1.

Sources need not be online, but that is of course where most people (and me) are looking, how else could we read them unless we happen to have the same newspaper/book. I found one of the books you mentioned here (it's free to register), can you tell me where Reece is mentioned, I didn't find it? You can reply here, I'm watching this page (not 24/7). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. I just saw your message to me. There are no page numbers in”A very young circus flyer”. Although Jill K wrote a message to my husband in our copy, I don’t think the text lists his name. He is sitting on the ring curb next to Tato during rehearsals.  In the Geo magazine (April 1982), he has several pictures and quotes.  One is a full spread of him standing on the steps of his train car- #56.  But the Internet posted it as “Skeeter Heece”. Instead of “Skeeter Reece”. I have searched the Internet for information on the Easter performance at the White House (1982) but cannot find any. We only have our personal photos.  He loved Marlon Perkins who was also performing, so he took a bunch of pictures of him.
 * In “Jokes My Father Never Told Me”, Rain talks about Skeeter on page 77.
 * In “Clown Alley” his picture is on page 297. A story about him is listed on page 394 and again on page 398.
 * He taught at the Ringling Clown College in 1980 and 1981.
 * In late 1982 we lived in Palo Alto California and the TV news did a segment on him. I have been searching for some online record of that, but that was before the Internet.  We had a VHS tape of it, long ago, but it was lost.  (Maybe it was done in early 1983?)
 * In Japan, he performed for Fuji TV but in a live show in the country where few people spoke English. (That was in 1989).
 * We have a lot of newspaper clippings, but often, I did not even clip the name of the paper Only the article.  One has a headline “Skeeter Reece finds athletic skills are useful as a clown”. By Claude Harrison.  (No date or city or name of paper)
 * ”Bring on a clown and hear his story” by Martin King (no city or date)
 * Ebony Magazine July 1980 article about Denise Wilson, includes picture with Skeeter.
 * Article from San Jose Mercury August 31, 1981 article by Gail Tagashira on kids growing up in circus. Picture of Skeeter with Kathy Farfan.
 * November 26, 1982 San Jose Mercury News has Skeeter carrying Santa on his shoulders.
 * Pennisula Times Tribune Feb 26, 1983 article “The man behind the clown face may surprise you” by Phyllis Brown
 * San Francisco Examiner August 25, 1982 article on a new restaurant. Skeeter was an entertainer there A picture of him in the article.  Heading: “ A new kind of pirate rolls into Silicon Valley- on skates.”  No byline. Just “special to the Examiner”
 * He performed with the Smothers Brothers in Jacksonville, Oregon June 18, 1994. There was an article in the Mail Tribune June 19, 1994
 * These are some of the things I’ve been searching for, but I would love help. I am struggling quite a bit. I am sure you are much more skillful.
 * I am very grateful for your offer of help. Mamadancer (talk) 05:01, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Btw, if we can get some sources that reasonably meet WP:BASIC, I can start a new version of the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Did I do this correctly? Did you get my reply?  There was something about  the conversation being “archived”. I will try to check my email messages more frequently.  I am at work tomorrow and may not catch them right away.
 * Thank you so much — to everyone who is trying to help. Mamadancer (talk) 05:14, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello again! I have seen your message and will get back to you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much!! I have more articles as well.  And I am also trying to find some of them online somehow.  (I typed this from work.  I do not remember my password to log in.  It's at home.)  This is Mamadancer. 204.62.106.47 (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A small correction: Rain Pryor's book is called "Jokes My Father Never Taught Me."
 * Also, I found a few articles. I am going to try to copy and paste them here:
 * https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=AMNEWS&t=pubname%3A1508AFD0E83DBED6%21Las%2BVegas%2BReview-Journal&sort=YMD_date%3AD&maxresults=20&f=advanced&val-base-0=Kentucky%20Country%20and%20Riviera%20Hotel&fld-base-0=alltext&bln-base-1=and&val-base-1=1987&fld-base-1=YMD_date&docref=image/v2%3A1508AFD0E83DBED6%40EANX-NB-16EE3043709D57CD%402447155-16EE0223071B3EA9%4069-16EE0223071B3EA9%40
 * Another:
 * https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=AMNEWS&t=pubname%3A1508AFD0E83DBED6%21Las%2BVegas%2BReview-Journal&sort=YMD_date%3AD&maxresults=20&f=advanced&val-base-0=Skeeter%20and%20Crazy%20Girls&fld-base-0=alltext&bln-base-1=and&val-base-1=1988&fld-base-1=YMD_date&docref=image/v2%3A1508AFD0E83DBED6%40EANX-NB-16EDAA9EE12C895F%402447164-16ECF759D7D8670E%4041-16ECF759D7D8670E%40
 * Another:
 * https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=NewsBank&t=&sort=YMD_date%3AD&fld-base-0=alltext&maxresults=20&val-base-0=skeeter%20%20reece&docref=news/0FD393460904B8DB
 * Another:
 * https://access.newspaperarchive.com/us/florida/sarasota/sarasota-journal/1977/11-09/
 * I found these from the library databases. I don't know if you will be able to open them without my library card number.  I am hoping they will send.  The Ebony magazine article did not.
 * Thank you again. Mamadancer (talk) 02:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sadly, non of the above is available to me, except the Sarasota I got via another channel. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there another way that I can get articles to you? Mamadancer (talk) 21:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Mary Ellen Mark's people (the photographer for the GEO magazine) corrected the page, so the circus train picture with my husband now says correctly
 * Skeeter Reece. (Not Heece)Mamadancer (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being slow to respond, but I'll look into this the coming week. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:03, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you so very much!! I can't tell you how much this means!!! Mamadancer (talk) 00:05, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm interested in seeing the Peninsula Times Tribune Feb 26, 1983 article “The man behind the clown face may surprise you” by Phyllis Brown article (as you can see at Skeeter Reece we found some of the others). You can mail it to me if you want, go to User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång and find "Email this user" on the left. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, and glad I could help. I really liked his video, he's an interesting guy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Images
WP, and the sister-site we keep most images on, Commons, are both very careful about copyright. The copyright of a picture usually, but not necessarily, belongs to the photographer. You can upload images you have taken yourself with your own camera, so if, say, you have such images of Skeeter Reece you are welcome to upload them with the process that starts here. A WP:LEADIMAGE couldn't hurt.

It is possible to provide Commons with permissions to use copyrighted pictures if you can arrange them, but there's more bureaucracy involved. If that is something interesting there's info on that here:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I will work on this. Mamadancer (talk) 00:10, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I loaded another image. Each time I get a bit more familiar with the process! Yay! Mamadancer (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Give it a couple of years and you will be starting Edit-a-thon's. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. There is a picture of Skeeter with Mohammed Ali that I wanted to upload but it has a photographer’s name on it, so I am tracking down that person so that we can possibly upload that. Mamadancer (talk) 03:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * That would be F...ANTASTIC! @Alexis Jazz, ping to you if you have any good advice on that. Mamadancer is the wife of Skeeter Reece (well, so she says and I believe her). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, get identities/license grants confirmed through WP:OTRS / c:Commons:Wikimedia VRT release generator. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 16:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Alexis Jazz Why WP:OTRS and not the Commons one? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Commons for media, for verification of identity see Wikipedia:Username policy. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:27, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Alexis Jazz I read that, and I don't see how it applies here, Mamadancer is not her real name. Are you saying she will have to confirm her own identity to WP via WP:OTRS before (possibly) using Common's VRT release generator, or does the generator include guidance to all necessary disclosure, her's and photographer's? I'm completely unfamiliar with the process here, and assumed it would be a Commons-thing only. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi! So I am close to tracking down the photographer. If she is available for me to communicate with, do I direct her to the Commons E-mail templates?  Or The Commons VRT release generator?  Or can I do it for her?  Will she have to create a Wikipedia username and password in order to GET to the Wikimedia release generator?  I have been reading the information, but, as you see, I am still a bit confused.  I want to be sure I know what I am asking her to do, and how to do it.  (I am pretty certain she will be saying yes to the release.)  Again, thank you for all the help. Mamadancer (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I clicked my way through the generator (didn't actually send anything), and it has choices for either you or the photographer to "do it". I choose "representative" and it generated this:
 * "I hereby affirm that I represent Other Guy, the creator and/or sole owner of the exclusive copyright of the following media work:
 * content attached to this email
 * I agree to publish the above-mentioned work under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International.
 * I acknowledge that by doing so I grant anyone the right to use the work, even in a commercial product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.
 * I am aware that this agreement is not limited to Wikipedia or related sites.
 * I am aware that the copyright holder always retains ownership of the copyright as well as the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be claimed to have been made by the copyright holder.
 * I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.
 * Ferd Fred
 * intermediate of Other Guy
 * 2022-09-19"
 * Then it says
 * "Once you have sent the release email, you're done! A Wikimedia volunteer will get back to you once your email has been processed (the current backlog is 12 days)."
 * So this part of it seems straightforward enough. Either of you can do it (with slightly different choices). When they get back to you, you'll have to take it from there. Hope this helps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:49, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, no, only the photographer can. "I hereby affirm that I represent Other Guy, the creator": Mamadancer doesn't represent the photographer. This would apply when a company releases something with a free license which was made by a photographer on their payroll. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 07:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, I assumed that would be clarified/verified in further communication. So, the photographer, if willing, should be directed to the generator. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:18, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I have another picture, a black and white, which we paid the photographer for, and used in all of his promotional materials. It was taken in 1991.  Under the copyright it states:  "The person pictured in this image has the right to reproduce this image for his/her own self-promotion, in the form of 8x10's, composites, headsheets, theatre programs, press releases or other promotional packages.  An adjacent photo credit should accompany any reproduction of this image."  Would this constitute "I hereby affirm that I represent Other Guy, creator" ?  It is Skeeter on his unicycle.
 * Thank you. Mamadancer (talk) 20:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Per your description, I'm sceptical. @Marchjuly, care to comment? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:02, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what's being asked here, but any permission statement that begins with the person pictured in this image has the right to reproduce this image for his/her own self promotion, seems too restrictive for either Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons purposes. Bascially, the only types of free licenses that either will accept are those that pretty much allow anyone anywhere in the world to download the image at anytime and reuse it for any purpose (including commercial and derivative uses). The copyright holder may require that they be attributed each time the image is reused, but that's about it. The copyright holder isn't transferring their copyright ownership to anyone else when they do something like this; they're just making a version of the image available under certain terms to make it easier for others (not just the subject of the image) to reuse. There might be other non-copyright restrictions in play, but those aren't really a concern here. What's written above sounds like an agreement between the copyright holder and the subject of the image, but such an agreement doesn't automatically extend to everyone else in the world. What Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons need is a permission statement worded something like WP:CONSENT or c:COM:CONSENT, and it should be the copyright holder (or their legal representative) who sends that via email to WP:VRT (or c:COM:VRT) for verification. That's the best way to ensure the image will survive a deletion nomination if someone someday questions its licensing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks Marchjuly, I think "any permission statement that begins with the person pictured in this image has the right to reproduce this image for his/her own self promotion, seems too restrictive for either Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons purposes." is the point here. Copyright rules are a pain in the fundament. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thank you.  I understand. Mamadancer (talk) 23:43, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi! So Owen Carey, the photographer, went to the upload wizard to  give permission to use his photos, but he only had the negatives. Since I have the black-and-whites, he asked me to upload them. I did this today!  I hope Wikipedia is able to connect what he did with what I did.  Please let me know if we have done this correctly. Thank you!Mamadancer (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest adding "" to c:File:Skeeter Reece carrying Albert Alter juggling while on unicycle.jpg and c:File:Skeeter Reece on Unicycle.jpg. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, thoughts?The photos you uploaded look good. A bit higher quality could possibly be obtained from the negatives with a film scanner. Maybe a Wikimedian with a film scanner could be found near the photographer, or there are various services/shops that can digitize them for a fee. But that's all optional, the uploaded photos are more than good enough to make great additions to the article. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being alert, @Alexis Jazz. I'm not the one to ask what'll "work" on Commons I'm afraid, but checking in "preview" that looks reasonable. Mamadancer, I understand you as saying that Owen Carey has mailed VRT?
 * Beautiful images! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:34, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi. No Owen Carey used the VRT but since he didn’t have the images to upload, he got stuck. Then he wrote back to me and I uploaded them. Will his permissions get connected to the photos correctly, do you think? Mamadancer (talk) 11:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Where/how do I add this extension, please? Mamadancer (talk) 11:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Append the text at c:Special:EditPage/File:Skeeter Reece carrying Albert Alter juggling while on unicycle.jpg and c:Special:EditPage/File:Skeeter Reece on Unicycle.jpg and click "publish changes". — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 13:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you again. I hope I put it in the right place.  Now they just have to find what Owen Carey did.  He did not have a url. Mamadancer (talk) 20:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I'm also largely unfamiliar with VRT procedure as I'm no agent myself either. I guess on enwiki Mamadancer may not need to have her identity verified. I'd guess though that well-known people would need to get their identity verified, even if they don't use their real name as their username. If I claimed to be Billy Connolly, you'd probably want proof regardless of my username.Assuming Skeeter Reece's wife isn't a well-known person I suppose there's no need for that though. Just point the photographer to the release generator. Will she have to create a Wikipedia username and password in order to GET to the Wikimedia release generator? If I remember correctly you get a link at the end to send a mail to the VRT team, no account needed. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, assuming this works you'll get a Teamwork Barnstar too! ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Alexis Jazz Sorry for keeping pestering you, but how do I get the categories at Commons Category:Skeeter Reece to list him by surname? I know how to do it on WP, but that doesn't seem to be it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:44, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Billy Connolly was good in House, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:57, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, good Lord, man. That's no way to treat a bad trip. Put the chair down, you'll end up hurting the poor wee thing. Sort key as described on mw:Help:Categories doesn't work? In that case I don't know. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, apparently DEFAULTSORT does work like on WP. I just didn't see it used anywhere. Good mornin'! How are we all? I have a wee proposition, if ye wouldn't mind giving me a few moments of yer time. Would you consider... JUST SODDING OFF?! All o' ye, right now! On top of a big pig, no less. And still married to the woman in the glasses. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I found an email address for the photographer of the Mohammed Ali photo, and I wrote to her, but I have not yet had a response. The phone number is no longer in service.  I will continue to work on this one. Mamadancer (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * If it works, it works. We are already in better shape, image-wise, than most similar articles. If you and he want, consider uploading a not-clown "Skeeter Reece in 2022" (or similar). Or "Skeeter Reece and his wife and/or family in 20xx." It could be seen as a little odd to include since there's no mention of any of you in sources I have seen (WP:BLP again), but I can't think of a WP-rule against it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. You are right, of course.  (I have still not heard back, so perhaps that email is no longer correct, either.)  We can see if there's another image to consider.  Thank you again. Mamadancer (talk) 23:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Who is the photographer? Or is that not public information? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 00:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh hi! The photographer is Shelley Bonus.  Maybe you guys could find contact information!  The email I used is shelleybonus@gmail.com  I had a California phone number, but it was no longer in service. Mamadancer (talk) 16:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Rain Pryor's mother? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. 71.38.101.142 (talk) 17:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oops (wasn’t logged in :) ). Yes. Rain ‘s mother. She did photography as well. Mamadancer (talk) 17:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * You know, I think I read that somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * 😄😄 Mamadancer (talk) 18:10, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I guess you could try to communicate with Rain Pryor via Facebook or Instagram (to see if she'll help you reach her mother). It's a bit of a longshot, but she may be sympathetic. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. I had thought that as well. Mamadancer (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The black and white that we have with Skeeter on the unicycle was taken by a photographer in Portland, Oregon. I have been in contact with him and he has agreed to let us use the picture. Do I load the picture first?  Or he has to do the VRTS permission generator first?  Thank you for your help.
 * ( I got stuck on how to follow the photo upload without his “permissions”, but how does he give permission for a picture that’s not even there yet?) Mamadancer (talk) 03:47, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that it's easiest if he use the Commons:Wikimedia VRT release generator directly. Since it basically helps the user to write a mail, he can attach it to the mail.
 * He could also use the standard uploadwizard, but I assume this is a previously published image, so it would probably be nominated for deletion like yours were, so that wouldn't be easier for anybody. @Alexis Jazz, am I reasonably right? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, yes. Can't find the actual policy but c:Commons:But it's my own work! describes it. If you upload the file you should add c:Template:Permission pending to the file description page. (like ) — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 13:12, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I sent the information on to him.  I don't know if he still has a print of it;  maybe just the negative.  If he doesn't (have the print), I will load it and do what Alexis Jazz told me to do.  He is working on some projects, so it may be a couple days before he gets to it. Mamadancer (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The article
is looking pretty good if I may say so myself. If you look at Main Page, you see a section headed "Did you know ...", also known as WP:DYK. It's a display of new articles, they stay there I think 12h or so. If you're ok with it, I can nominate Skeeter Reece to appear there, it won't necessarily be approved. It usually means a few thousand views that day, since it's quite visible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:36, 15 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I like that. :)   I asked my son to load the photos for the Images part because he is much better at digital photography and all of "this" than I am, but unfortunately, he may be too busy to help me just now.  Tonight, when I get home from work, I will try to load the pictures.  I have three in mind.  Should I just do one, or can I do all 3?
 * Thank you again.Mamadancer (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Do as many as you like. All may not end up in the article, but it doesn't hurt if interested editors have a choice. Perhaps some can be used in other articles, you never know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I noticed that the article has one incorrect name. The man who taught them unicycle in the Bronx is named Jerry KING.  They named the troupe of riders, THE KING CHARLES TROUPE.
 * Also-following the 80's, he clowned for over 20 years in Las Vegas and Portland, Oregon. He performed for extended periods for several of the casinos:  the Riviera, Harrah's, Circus-Circus,and the Rio.  (Masquerade Show In The Sky)  He worked Bud Friedman's Improv at Harrah's for several years.  Is there no way to mention all of this?  It sounds like his performing career stopped after the early 80's which is not the case at all.  He probably did some of his best work here in Vegas.  Mamadancer (talk) Mamadancer (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Corrected King, my mistake.
 * The WP-rule/philosophy is to, on any topic, summarize the published independent WP:RS we can find, this is even more important when we write about living people (WP:BLP). This limits what should go in to articles, but it has advantages. Sources like unclejr has some use per WP:ABOUTSELF, but can't be used for, say "performed at the White House" (which it doesn't say, anyway).
 * So, while I don't doubt you are who you say you are (even less so after our mailcontact), anything you share by writing it on a WP-talkpage (excluding stuff like "here's another article on him from Las Vegas Review-Journal") can't be used for article content. Longer version of that: An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. If we're lucky, other editors may find useful sources somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I’ve been reading all the links to information you have sent me. Wikipedia is so vast and layered!  It’s like learning a new language (for me).  It is somewhat frustrating when newspaper sources are the sources used, and reporters don’t always get the facts straight either. But isn’t that what happens with stories?  They always seem to change a little in telling after telling.
 * There is one more statement that needs correcting. In 1981, Skeeter was NOT the only Black clown in Ringling  There were 2 units of RBBB ( red and blue), and a few other black clowns, both male and female, although not many.
 * Also-in case anyone feels like adding more information to the piece:
 * There are several newspaper mentions from Portland, Oregon in the early 1990’s
 * The Mail Tribune, Sunday June 19, 1994 “Brothers fill night with Yo-ful noise” by Clive Twitchell (Smothers Brothers Show)
 * Las Vegas Review Journal, Friday August 30, 1996 “Slayton shows no mercy at Improv tackling subjects other comics avoid” by Michael Paskevich which mentions Skeeter at the end.
 * Unfortunately, I can’t find online documentation (as you mentioned) to cite for the White House which was in 1982
 * Many of the newspaper articles are pictures, with only small stories
 * The stint with Fuji TV in Japan has no citations at all
 * I will work on uploading pictures now.
 * Thank you so much for all of this! It means a lot.Mamadancer (talk) 18:05, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, any source can make mistakes, and then the Wikipedian who adds something from can in their turn read it wrong (or just make stuff up, it happens, which can lead to citogenesis...), so this place will not get perfect anytime soon. A reporter once asked Jimmy Wales what he thought about the WP-article about him, and Wales replied "It’s as right as the media about me is right." And that is about the best you can hope for around here. Here is a pretty good story about "getting" a WP-article.
 * I removed "only black clown", per your request (but per source WP only said HE said it!). If you want to mail me more press, I'll take a look. I'll try to ask around a little on fuji and White House.
 * Lovely image (you're quickly becoming a seasoned Wikipedian), I added it to Skeeter Reece and Unicycle. I've also added his name to articles like Skeeter and his high school (same school as Ace Frehley!? That is so cool). I may look into improving The King Charles Troupe article at some point, it is not in good shape, and some of the press you sent me can be used there too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:14, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I really can’t say Thank you enough! I am enjoying everything I am learning as well.  I am impressed by all you Wikipedians’ research abilities!
 * I will send those two articles by email. By the way, Skeeter’s birthdate is October 31, 1951. Mamadancer (talk) 03:36, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was afraid you'd say that... See WP:DOB. Recent discussion on that: Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1164 (the cite is now in the infobox at the right side of that article). We don't use birth certificates or other such documentation either. The (born 1950/1951) is based on the which said 30 years in 1981. It looks weird, I know, but it's house-style. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay! I definitely understand.  It makes sense. Mamadancer (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't suppose he has a personal website I haven't found? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * No, sorry. We never really needed one.  Back in the day. People always saw him, or heard about him.  :) Mamadancer (talk) 18:49, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Reference_desk/Entertainment, no luck as of yet. Comment if you like. Added per the last press you mailed:. And now I wonder if I can find sources to start an article about Albert Alter. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:10, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Images 2
See issues posted at User talk:Mamadancer on Commons. Now you get to use the Commons:Wikimedia VRT release generator anyway, assuming you want to bother with this that is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Hope you are well! I've had a positive response at Template:Did you know nominations/Skeeter Reece, the Main page thing I mentioned above. May I ask if you're trying to "save" the images on Commons? IMO it would be nice if you could, they're good. It won't affect the DYK per se, but if the images are declared "ok", they might use one when it goes "live". Odds are against it (like 1 in 8), but still. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. I am still trying to figure out what to do.  I will have more time today.  All of my other log-ins have been for too short a time to follow all the links.  (I read everything.   :)  )  I do want the pictures in there.  And I heard back from the photographer of the black-and-white photo, that I did NOT post.  He is looking for the negative.  That picture was taken in 1991.  I'm excited about the Main page thing! Mamadancer (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay! I think I did it.  (I hope I did it correctly.)  it was not as complicated as I thought it was going to be! Mamadancer (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see at under "Summary" that you've made progress. So far, so good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:53, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * DYK approved. No date is set, you can check progress at this page: Template:Did you know/Queue, atm Skeeter Reece is at Template:Did_you_know/Queue. At some point it will move from "prep" to "queue", and then it will get at date. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:04, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * This is great!! Wonderful! Mamadancer (talk) 00:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Now there is a time and date: 17:00 Los Angeles time, October 3, 24h. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:06, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Cool! I will make sure to check it out!!  Thank you! Mamadancer (talk) 19:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It’s live!! I saw it. So cool!  Thank you for everything.  So much work involved,  but this was fun!  Lots of learning.  It’s great to see the result!! Mamadancer (talk) 02:45, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Some statistics:. Those are views, not unique visitors, but it's the highest I've had for a DYK (all 5), so I may brag about it a bit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That’s wonderful!! Definitely brag. 😊 Mamadancer (talk) 04:16, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, YOU SAVED THE PICTURES!!! This calls for a drink! You wouldn't happen to have one by you for Draft:Albert Alter, would you? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:29, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * YAY!!! Excellent!! 🍹 cheers! Mamadancer (talk) 04:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have a picture with Skeeter and Albert Alter but it’s done by the photographer in Portland, Owen Carey. He’s still pretty busy.  I will mention it to him though. 😊 Mamadancer (talk) 04:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I wrote up above too. I uploaded both black and whites today. One of just Skeeter and one with Albert Alter. Owen Carey did the permission page but he did not have photos to upload, only negatives. I hope they connect us.  I hope we did it correctly. 😊
 * I saw you were working on Albert’s page (We call him “Professor”  He has an engineering degree!)  I will let him know!  It’s cool that you’re doing this!Mamadancer (talk) 18:08, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Love them! Added to articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And tell him Happy Birthday from Sweden!!! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I will! Thank you  😊 Mamadancer (talk) 11:35, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If I google "Albert Alter", first result is the WP-article, telling us "is an American clown, noted for his work as a hospital clown." However, if I scroll down a bit, I come to an actual doctor with the same name. Oh well, that's search engines for you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes! And if I google my maiden name, I am a doctor as well!  lol Mamadancer (talk) 20:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Added Alter and Reece pic to Juggling, I couldn't help myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:50, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * And apparently another editor liked that pic too and added it to Malabarisme (Catalan Wikipedia). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:42, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Images 3
The Alter & Reece pics have been automatically removed from Commons/WP, afaict since they never got any confirmation that the pics where ok to use. If you can/want to arrange that, I guess Commons:Wikimedia VRT release generator is the way to start. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I’m not sure what else to do. The photographer got stuck with that generator because he has no prints, only negatives.  He did his part first.  I uploaded the pictures second, and wrote the problem in there. I was hoping that whoever works on those would find a way to connect his permissions to my pictures.
 * The other problem is that we are in different states Communication between us is slow.
 * Do you have any suggestions?
 * we both did use that VRT generator
 * Thanks! Mamadancer (talk) 01:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Anachronist, can you help? They were really nice pics. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If you have ticket numbers, I can check, but I searched VRT for both of those image names and came up with nothing. I am not an administrator on Commons so I can't see the history there. The only VRT ticket I see is, which is for permission of the two images currently in the article. The images can be undeleted if permission is received. You don't need to re-submit the images, only the permission declaration. Be sure to include the links to the deleted images and add that you own the negatives. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The pictures I uploaded were deleted. So I don't have a "VRT ticket"  I don't know how to find links to the deleted images...since they have been deleted.
 * I am confused.
 * I guess I have to upload the pictures on the VRT again??  And then tell Owen Carey to do the permissions AFTER I upload the pictures?  Also on VRT??
 * I have the prints. I live in Nevada.  Owen Carey has the negatives.  He lives in Oregon.  We have been communicating through Facebook Messenger.  It's very slow. We paid for the pictures to be done back in 1991.  He gave permission to use them then.  I told him about Wikipedia, and it was acceptable to him, but neither of us know how to connect our parts to each other in the VRT.
 * We BOTH used the VRT, but about a month apart. He gave his permission before I had even uploaded the pictures.  (I thought he had prints he could use, but he does not anymoe.  He then asked ME to upload my prints.)
 * Thank you again for all the help. Mamadancer (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You don't need to upload them again. The copyright holder must write to VRT (see WP:CONSENT for instructions) giving permission to release the two deleted images under an acceptable free license. Then the images can be restored. These are the links to the deleted images:
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Skeeter_Reece_on_Unicycle.jpg
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Skeeter_Reece_carrying_Albert_Alter_juggling_while_on_unicycle.jpg
 * The communication should come from the owner of the negatives. You can drop me a note on my talk page when the communication has been sent, and I can take care of that ticket. I'll have to find an administrator on Commons to undelete the images once permission has been received. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! I sent a message to Owen Carey (the photographer).  Now, I just have to wait and see when he sees it.  Thanks again.  :) Mamadancer (talk) 18:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. Owen said he struggled with it, but he thinks he finally got the links pasted.  He said he was able to finally send his allowance in an email.  (I hope this comment makes sense to you.)  So hopefully, he did it right and the VRT managers can find them.  He thought the pictures would just appear back on Skeeter's page, but I told him it might be a few days.  Thank you so much for all your help.  Sorry we are such newbies.  It really isn't that easy.
 * Thanks again. :) Mamadancer (talk) 02:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ping to @Anachronist. Mamadancer, note that Anachronist said "You can drop me a note on my talk page", which probably means they are not looking at your's. I have your talkpage on my WP:WATCHLIST, so when something is written here I'll probably notice it and look.
 * When you want someones attention, you can write at their talkpage or "ping" them from wherever (here, Teahouse etc), that's the @-name-things you can see in this thread. In the window that opens when you click "reply", there's a button that can be used for that, little-guy-with-a-plus. This "lits up" the little bell at the top of the page for the person you ping. Hope this helps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have so many pages in my watchlist that I don't notice when a particular one gets changed if I am not looking for it. I saw the note above because I was pinged. That is a good way to get my attention; see ping.
 * I found the new ticket: . Unfortunately Mr Carey didn't include both image links, only one of them. I left a comment to the agent handling that ticket, directing him to this discussion. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I will message him again and tell him. I will also copy and paste those links you gave me. Perhaps that will work?
 * Thanks again. Mamadancer (talk) 19:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't say Thank you enough for all your help! I wrote on Anachronist talk page and tried to add you, but without those accents, I don't think it included you in the message.  I am IM-ing owen Carey again. I don't know which picture worked, so i will send both, again.
 * I could not quite figure out the Ping. I will work on that. Mamadancer (talk) 20:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * See if this section helps:Help:Talk_pages. Some of these WP-things are ridiculously difficult to explain in text. If I was standing beside you I could say "click there, now there, done." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:33, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see the A's--just can't find how to do it on my keyboard, as you said. I thank you for all your help, guiding me through the mysteries of Wikipedia!! Mamadancer (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Btw, checked your attempt to ping me at Anachronist's talkpage! That would have worked, but you didn't use the foreign letters in my username (not foreign to me), I guess you don't have them on your keyboard and didn't copypaste. It's
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång, see the 3 Å?
 * Oh, and you don't have to "ping" someone at their own talkpage, it has no extra effect. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I answered @Anachronist on his talk page. I see the little guy with the plus sign@-so that's how I ping? Mamadancer (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that notified me that you mentioned me here. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

The images are now restored:

Glad to help out. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)


 * @Anachronist, Mamadancer and Owen Carey, thanks a lot. It's fun to see "File usage on other wikis" has spread to other language Wikipedias, so tell Owen people like his work.
 * I see, however, that both pics has the "However, the message was not sufficient to confirm permission for this file" message, so I hope Mamadancer and/or Owen Carey has been told what more is needed so they don't get deleted again. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:17, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, yay!! But, do we need to do something else still?  Or is it all good now?  Thank you so very much!! Mamadancer (talk) 17:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * My understanding of "Summary" at and  is that all is not well yet, we are afaict back where we were before deletion. If Owen Carey was the one who was in contact with Commons most recently, I hope he has been advised what more is needed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, Mamadancer, did you get anywhere with the "Reece vs Ali" picture? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No, unfortunately. All my messaages to Shelley went into the void.  So I IM'd Rain--in a couple places, and never got any response at all.  I imagine she gets many messages, and they may have been lost.  I also read somewhere in my researching, that she and her mother are estranged, although I saw that they were both living in Baltimore now.  Interesting.  Shelley teaches a class in Astronomy, I saw, and i even sent a message that way hoping it might find a way to her.  Don't know if it did, since I never heard anything.
 * Not sure if she wants to be in touch with me. I married the man she wanted. (Skeeter)  Although I never met her.  Once he was with me, he never visited her again. Mamadancer (talk) 17:47, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Understood, it's a special situation. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hooray!!! Thank you so very very much!! Mamadancer (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have left a note on the talk page of the Commons administrator who tagged the images that way. I see nothing wrong with the permissions given. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! We'll see what happens at . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:52, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It turns out Yann is not a VRT agent, so he was unable to confirm the ticket and therefore didn't put the confirmation tag on the images. I just did that. Everything should be fine now. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It absolutely looks like it! This calls for another drink! Mamadancer, I've started to work on King Charles Troupe, so if you have any good pics of those, or know any great WP:RS, or want to edit, dig in. Not stuff like "Their greatest member ever was Skeeter Reece" etc, but you get that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Another drink, yes! Merry Christmas!  I just saw this.  I will look into it.  :) Mamadancer (talk) 01:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

God Jul!
Happy Holidays text.png Hello Mamadancer: Enjoy the holiday season&#32;and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC) Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings}} to send this message Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * What a very beautiful "card" you made! Such talent.  And Happy New Year to you!!  I do not know how to make such a beautiful card, so I will just send the sentiment. Mamadancer (talk) 01:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It's more a case of knowing where to look:Category:Happy holidays and seasonal greetings WikiLove templates Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool!! I like it! Mamadancer (talk) 01:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Out of curiosity
And if you're still around of course. I just noticed a spike in article-views about a week ago, and a certain hospital clown had a similar spike. I've been googling, this sometimes means the subject has been on TV or something, but I didn't see any clues. Do you have any idea why? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok, it seems Reddit had a thread about Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Clown College, and some curiosity spilled over to the Notable alumni. Mystery solved, I think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi! Sorry I was so slow in noticing this. Dealing with some medical stuff.
 * I know there are some clowns who are really interested and involved in clown history I am on a couple of Facebook groups where people post information and reminisce.  I know Skeeter was highlighted one of those times, but I don’t know if it was connected
 * Nice to hear from you! 😊 Mamadancer (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Started a new article
Hi, hope you are well! Started a new article: Draft:Reggie Montgomery. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures you feel like sharing with the audience..? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 9 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I do not think we have any although my husband knows who he is/was. I will keep looking and see if any of our friends might have some.  :) Mamadancer (talk) 01:50, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Since Reggie Montgomery is no longer with us, WP-rules allows the use of one "fair use" lead-image (if no "free use" is available), so I will pick one I find online and add that at some point. If someone "donates" one or more pic later, we'll throw the "fair use" out and replace it.
 * I'm wondering what kind of lead-image would be "best", clown or not-clown ? Let me know if you have an opinion/suggestion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Off topic, I saw A Man Called Otto, it was fun to see Tom Hanks get into a fight with a hospital clown. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi! I hope you are well! It’s been a while.
 * Remember that picture of Skeeter with Muhammad Ali we wanted to use? The other clown in that picture is a man called Charlie Frye and he has published a book called  “Slightly Absurd”, published by Squash Publishing, Chicago 2023.
 * That picture of the 3 of them is in that book on page 269! Do you think we can use it now?
 * Thank you so much!
 * mamadancer Mamadancer (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello! I'm well, hoping you are too, despite people getting shot in the ear etc.
 * I'm skeptical, but I'm lacking some info. As I remember, the photographer is Shelley R. Bonus, who, afaict, is alive and well.
 * My default assumption is that she is the copyright holder, and that Charlie Frye used the picture in his book with her permission. If you have the book, this might be indicated on the page with the picture, or there may be a page near the end for picture credits or something like that. It doesn't follow from that that it's fine for WP/Commons to use it.
 * However, US copyright rules are not necessarily that simple. Since we last spoke, I've learned that there's something called a Hirtle chart. So, if you look at that, where would you say that leave us?
 * Btw, one of your earlier pictures is now also a kind of a teaching aid, see A picture of you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh! That’s very cool. 😊😊 Mamadancer (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see it's Sleightly Absurd, there's a pun in there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oops yes! Sorry I spelled it wrong. 😆
 * I just flipped through it, it appears he wrote it as though he were at home, showing you his collection of photos, as well as his magic. It is kind of done like a teaching tool for young performers, mixed in with biographical stories.
 * There is a copyright by Charlie Frye for the whole book and only one drawing on page  302 that was done by someone other than Charlie. Mamadancer (talk) 14:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You said earlier "Yes. There is a picture of Skeeter with Mohammed Ali that I wanted to upload but it has a photographer’s name on it, so I am tracking down that person so that we can possibly upload that." Was this a clipping from somewhere, a picture given by Bonus to you/Skeeter or something else? Do you know the approximate date and/or Date of Publication? I've googled a bit, but I can not find this pic online. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. I’m not sure she ever worked as a professional photographer. She was fascinated by the circus, was working on learning some circus arts and travelled a bit with the show. She gave Skeeter a number of pictures that she took.
 * As a matter of fact, I think the picture Charlie used is a copy of our picture Which we have posted several times, in various parts of Facebook I believe Mamadancer (talk) 14:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * PS-I am guessing around 1980? Muhammad Ali also loved coming to Ringling and bringing his children.  Skeeter loved him, so of course he was going to meet him personally! Mamadancer (talk) 15:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Who wouldn't have!? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes!! Mamadancer (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 😄😄 We are staying safe Thank you for asking. 😄
 * I have tried to contact Shelley in all the sources I found, as well as trying to contact Rain (her daughter).
 * I also wonder if she is not really proficient with modern technology. Perhaps she has never received any of my messages.  I know my husband does not read his very often.  I do it.  He doesn’t even check text messages!
 * I will read the links you sent. Thank you. Mamadancer (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I noticed you included the UCLA professorship in your link. I may try calling there 😊😊
 * Thanks Mamadancer (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So, if I get you correctly, Shelley may never have published this picture herself, just given copies to people. I can't speak for Frye, but perhaps he thought it didn't matter and that no one would mind if he used it (and so didn't bother seeking permission).
 * To me it seems that we are almost certainly in the same situation as with the Owen Carey pics, you have to ask Shelley Bonus if she is willing to license it as he did. Her using COM:VRT/CONSENT to write a mail to Commons is probably the easiest method.
 * @Anachronist, hello. I'm pinging you to ask if you have any advice to add to this discussion (the 2024 part of this thread). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you may be right.
 * I have called UCLA and had to leave a message. I also sent an email to "Support".  So, once again, I am waiting...
 * Thank you for your help. Mamadancer (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, if you wonder "Does it have be this hard to add a damn picture?" Take a look at Files_for_discussion/2024_July_14. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 😱 Mamadancer (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Great news! I just talked to Shelley!!  UCLA gave her my number and she called me from Maryland!
 * She said YES!
 * I don’t think she has her original copy which would probably be in better shape than ours
 * I am going to try to send that commons link by text message Do you think that will work? Mamadancer (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * WOW! You're amazing!
 * As I understand it, the blue button at
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Volunteer_Response_Team#Declaration_of_consent_for_all_enquiries
 * helps her write a mail and tells her where to send it. I THINK she can/should attach a version of the pic to the mail. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do I need to upload the picture before she sends the email? Mamadancer (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that can work too, that's how you managed the Owen-pics, right? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Of the 2 of us, you're the one who have actually used VRT, I've just tried to make other people use it :P Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Shelley and I are struggling with it. She wants a printed photographer’s release form and I told her you guys do not do that.
 * Also, when I sent her the link to the photo, it looked like 3 of them posted! But on my side, it was only 1    Can you help with this?
 * One more thing- I needed to put “awaiting permissions” next to the photo but could not find where that statement was I will continue to look
 * Thank you for your help As always! Mamadancer (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Anachronist
 * I have been working with the author of the picture of Skeeter with Muhammad Ali and having a little trouble I guess I should have pinged you as I was writing to Grabergs Graa Sang but I thought you would get the responses as well  can you read our conversation?  Thank you! Mamadancer (talk) 18:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Anachronist hasn't been editing for a few days, maybe they'll turn up. I can see at File:The Champ and The Clown.jpg that you have uploaded a version, that's excellent. If there are more versions uploaded now, I don't know where they are.
 * Is this what you're after? Template:Permission pending
 * If so, I think you just add to the filepage on Commons.
 * As far as I know Commons is mail only. If it helps the asked for mailtext can be read at Commons:Email templates. I'm not sure if you mean that Shelley has mailed VRT already.
 * @Jmabel, hi. I'm trying to help Mamadancer (married to the clown on the right), who is in contact with the photographer (who was married to Richard Pryor, just sayin) to make this image stick. Any help you can give is appreciated. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * After about 90 seconds of skimming, this seems to be a long thread about several different (albeit related) things. What exactly do you want help with? Could you ask me a more specific question? And do remember, I'm not part of the VRT. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 20:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jmabel, sorry. If you can help us with File:The Champ and The Clown.jpg, please do. As I understand it, we're waiting for the VRT-bit, but as you say, you're not involved in that anyway. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yann left me a message on Commons but I am hoping Shelley will figure it out soon. 😊 Mamadancer (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I did not know where to insert the Mamadancer (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I guess I didn’t even type it correctly because it did not show up! 😐 Mamadancer (talk) 01:24, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I added it to the Licensing section, like you did on your Commons talkpage. Hopefully you guys will be able to follow what it says, I'll copy it here:
 * An email containing details of the permission for this file has been sent to the Volunteer Response Team.
 * Note to uploaders:
 * Please include the URL of this file (the url is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Champ_and_The_Clown.jpg) in the email to help VRT agents associate the email with this file.
 * Please have the copyright holder email permission in the format given here.
 * Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi again!
 * Shelley did it but I think she’s getting frustrated by the process
 * She is in the middle of teaching and it’s taking a lot of time She got back this:
 * Dear Shelley Bonus,
 * Thank you for your permission to use media file(s) on Wikimedia Commons.
 * For us to process your contribution(s), we need to know the specific name or link to the page(s) on Wikimedia Commons to which you have uploaded them.
 * If you have not yet uploaded, please continue to upload the file(s) and let us know when done.
 * If the file(s) were deleted, please do not attempt to re-upload them; they will be automatically restored by an administrator upon successful confirmation of permission.
 * Sincerely,
 * Andrew Martin
 * Can you help sort this out?
 * Thank you so much! Mamadancer (talk) 21:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds to me they want
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Champ_and_The_Clown.jpg (link)
 * OR
 * File:The Champ and The Clown.jpg (specific name)
 * from her. Either should be fine. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I did send her another text message. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
 * It sounded earlier like she was done fussing with it As far as she was concerned she had given her permission
 * Thanks for all your help on this It will be so cool if it actually gets on the page
 * It’s one of Skeeter ‘s favorite pictures (for obvious reasons) Mamadancer (talk) 16:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm still traveling for the next 3 weeks but checking in now and then. I located the VRT ticket and thanked Shelley for the donation of the image, and applied the appropriate permission and license templates to File:The_Champ_and_The_Clown.jpg. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yay! Wonderful! Thank you so very much!@ Mamadancer (talk) 04:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've added it to Skeeter Reece, Muhammad_Ali, Muhammad_Ali_in_media_and_popular_culture, Ringling_Bros._and_Barnum_%26_Bailey_Circus and List_of_clowns. There is no guarantee other editors will think all of these are good additions, we'll see what happens. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is wonderful! Sorry about the condition of the photo. We were so young and did not think about preservation. I glued it into his scrapbook!  And now it appears that is the only copy.
 * But we are both very happy it is now in Wikipedia!!
 * Thank you so very much!  And also for your patience with me.
 * I love learning. Even so VRT is frustrating, and complicated.
 * i am also so thankful for all the help from others. Wikipedia is truly a community. Mamadancer (talk) 13:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You, your scrapbook and me has done some pretty good things together, and WP is better for it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And I'm looking into making an article about Charlie Frye. If I manage it, I'll add it there too. If you have contact with him, you can tell him how Commons works ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes we see Charlie often. He will be thrilled 😊😊 Mamadancer (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Can I have your opinion on something? Charlie Frye is taken. Which is better?
 * Charlie Frye (clown)
 * Charlie Frye (magician)
 * Charlie Frye (entertainer)
 * Something else? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you do magician/juggler/clown? Mamadancer (talk) 14:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Or possibly -Variety Artist Mamadancer (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * PS- see charliefrye.com. 😊 Mamadancer (talk) 14:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you want to converse with them on here like you do me?
 * For years he and his wife have travelled and performed as a duo “Charlie Frye and Company”. Sherry is his wife.  They met on Ringling as well, when Charlie was a clown and Sherry a dancer (showgirl).  Just like Skeeter and I.  Sherry and I were both dancers in NYC but we didn’t know each other then!  We met through our husbands.  Funny enough. Mamadancer (talk) 14:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What you said is pretty much what I've got so far: Draft:Charlie Frye (magician) (title can be changed). I'm still digging through the archives, I will get more on Charlie Frye and Company in there.
 * If they want to comment, they are welcome to do so at Draft talk:Charlie Frye (magician). As are you, of course. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was wrong. They are not thrilled. They don’t want want it. I am so sorry. Sherry asked me to ask you to stop. 😞 Mamadancer (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll stop. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m so sorry. I really liked it. 😥 Mamadancer (talk) 15:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank YOU!
 * I sent Sherry the info She had a lot of questions! 😊
 * Now she can ask you instead Mamadancer (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 😊😊 Mamadancer (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it looks great Mamadancer (talk) 15:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I guess Sherry wants something all about them as the duo. I told her that this is Wikipedia, not marketing. But they feel it is not representative of who they are. Mamadancer (talk) 15:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's the thing about WP, the people written about can't control it, though, as you know, they can certainly have influence. I'm reminded of the discussion I had here: Talk:Wally_Green_(table_tennis).
 * Not too long ago I helped a newcomer with an article and I warned them "If there are news-articles about him being the meth-kingpin of Nova Scotia, that will be mentioned. I don't think there are, but you never know." and that they should read WP:OWN. I didn't find any reports on Earl Bailly being a meth-kingpin, so the article is rather nice. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)