User talk:Mareino/Archive 5

''The Editor Mareino is currently dormant -- editing, but infrequently. You may still leave a message, and I will respond promptly.''

Jay Mariotti
In fairness to Jay Mariotti, I would recommend adding that he has won awards for previous commentary. He has won the Lisagor award for sports commentary in 1999 and 2001. This can be confirmed at the following websites: http://www.headlineclub.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=22957 and http://www.headlineclub.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=22954. The headline club is a Chicago affiliate of the Society of Professional Journalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.35.224.64 (talk • contribs)

Image copyright problem with Image:Muranov.jpg
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You helped choose Pluto as this week's WP:AID winner
Davodd 20:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:Jason Bay Bobblehead.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Jason Bay Bobblehead.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:
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Representative Terry Everett, AL, Wikipedia
Dear Sir,

I have repeatedly tried to enter correct information regarding Terry Everett's place in Jeff Stein's story about DC politicians who do not have a basic grasp of the core differences between Sunni and Shia Muslems. I write that Everett was asked by Stein if he knew the difference between a Sunni and a Shia, and Everett did not. Yet each time I have tried to include this exchange, it has been re-edited by someone, and rephrased to make it look like Stein is asking a much more difficult question about locations and political affiliations. That is not the case, as a re-reading of the article easily shows. (I have included the relevant portion of the article below.)

I do not know if you are the one doing this re-editing, but looking as the "history" tab of the article, it seems as if you may be. May I ask why? If you can provide an explanation for you interpretation of the article that rings true, I'll stop making these corrections.

Here is the relevant portion of the article (below); I fail to see how one can read this, and write that Everett is saying he does not know the geographic location and/or political affiliation of Sunnis and Shia Muslems:

QUOTE: Take Representative Terry Everett, a seven-term Alabama Republican who is vice chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence.

“Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?” I asked him a few weeks ago.

Mr. Everett responded with a low chuckle. He thought for a moment: “One’s in one location, another’s in another location. No, to be honest with you, I don’t know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different families or something.”

To his credit, he asked me to explain the differences. I told him briefly about the schism that developed after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and how Iraq and Iran are majority Shiite nations while the rest of the Muslim world is mostly Sunni. “Now that you’ve explained it to me,” he replied, “what occurs to me is that it makes what we’re doing over there extremely difficult, not only in Iraq but that whole area.”

END QUOTE.

Where exactly am I wrong? It seems clear as a bell that Everett is admitting he doesn't know the basic differences.

If you are not the one making these re-edits, I do apologize for contacting you in this manner.

sincerely, David K.

Category:Eyepatch wearers
this is the ref you were looking for. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 23:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Fortune 1000
Saw your insightful comments at Talk:Fortune 1000. Question: how would you apply the same logic to articles like List of S&P 500 companies, where S&P's decision to include/exclude a company is purely subjective: aren't those articles a violation of S&P's copyrights on the index? I welcome your continued insight. 68.160.221.170 05:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Pauly Shore.jpg
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Image:Lee-Chin.jpg
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Image:Temple Coach Leibovitz.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Temple Coach Leibovitz.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:


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Olmec head photo not from source named. Copyright issue with Image:Olmec1.jpg}}}
Hello. Concerning your contribution,, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from either web sites or printed material. This article appears to be a direct copy from. As a copyright violation, appears to qualify for speedy deletion under the speedy deletion criteria. has been tagged for deletion, and may have been deleted by the time you see this message. If the source is a credible one, please consider rewriting the content and citing the source.

If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under the GFDL, you can comment to that effect on Talk:. If the article has already been deleted, but you have a proper release, you can reenter the content at, after describing the release on the talk page. However, you may want to consider rewriting the content in your own words. Thank you, and please feel free to continue contributing to Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blanchette (talk • contribs)
 * Blanchette -- you are almost certainly incorrect. The image is not a copy from the AOL site; rather, the AOL site copied the image either from us, or from the entity that I originally listed as the source of the image (Michigan State University).  MSU conducts research on Pre-Colombian cultures, not AOL.  --M @ r ē ino 19:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Tracing the Source of the Olmec Head Photo
Hello Mareino, thanks for your explanation of how you came to see this photo as being in the public domain, having, as you see it, originated at MSU. Unfortunately, even if you were correct about its having originated as a scientific photograph at MSU, that would not automatically place it in the public domain as you seem to have claimed on the image page. As I understand it, scientific photographs, like all photographs, are protected by copyright at the moment of creation, irrespective of the out-of-copyright status of the subject of the photograph, with the exception of two-dimensional works, like public-domain drawings and paintings. Since the Olmec head is three-dimensional, it is irrelevant that it is over 500 years old. So even if the photo in question were taken as a scientific photograph at MSU (and the setting and lighting of the sculpture make this conjecture somewhat doubtful anyway) you would still have to provide a release from the original copyright holder, whether an individual or the University, stating that the photo is released into the public domain or licensed to Wikipedia in some fashion. If you can provide copy of, or a URL to, such a release or license then I am quite wrong in all my objections, of course.

However, my original objection was that the Olmec head photo did not in fact originate at MSU and your reply takes issue with this. I mentioned on the talk page [] that the photo could be traced via the Internet Archive Wayback Machine) from the source cited (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg) back to the AOL personal website. (That was a dead link and since I wrote on Dec. 30, '06 the source URL on the Wikipedia image page has been changed to http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/students/curriculum/m15/activity1.php, which has a link to the Olmec1 photo, but the working version of the original link should actually be http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/olmec1.jpg) Unfortunately, I did not take the time to show you how the trace-back was done, because if I had I think you would better see why I quickly came to the conclusion that I did.  Here is an outline of the process:


 * Wayback Machine: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
 * Search for the URL of the missing image (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg) and arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/20030507185253/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg
 * Search for parent page (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/) of the missing image and arrive at: no match
 * Move up to the next parent page (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/) and arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/
 * Look at the most recent version of that URL (Sep 09, 2005) and arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/20050909022740/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/
 * Find something relating to Mexico? Yes - Module Fifteen Africa and the World, click and arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/20050406051217/exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/intro.html
 * Not too helpful but try "Go to Module Fifteen Overview". Arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/20040831112413/exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/overview.html
 * There, item 1 - "Africans in Mexico". arrive at: http://web.archive.org/web/20040903090714/exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/actone.html
 * There, "Olmec head", is that it? Try it and get: http://web.archive.org/web/20040810150250/exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg
 * That page is not available so let's go back again. Next to the Olmec head reference was a "Visit this site for more information" reference: http://web.archive.org/web/20040903090714/http://members.aol.com/fsln/gallery/olmec1.htm
 * No source information there, but we find the same Olmec head photo and an historical note. Seems like an MSU acknowledgement of a source doesn't it? Which site does Wayback Machine show having the image first? We need to go back and find the earliest reference to the photo on the MSU and AOL websites.
 * I won't bore you with how to go back to http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/ and from there find the earliest reference but it is May 12, 2003 at: http://web.archive.org/web/20030512002837/exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/actone.html
 * Then find the earliest archive of the photo itself (http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg) at: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg
 * Which yields this (May 7, 2003) page: http://web.archive.org/web/20030507185253/http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm15/olmec1.jpg
 * What about the referenced AOL pages? You will locate them here for the main image: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://members.aol.com/fsln/gallery/olmec1.htm
 * Which finds this earliest (October 29, 2002) version: http://web.archive.org/web/20021029143650/http://members.aol.com/fsln/gallery/olmec1.htm
 * And here for the gallery thumbnail: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://members.aol.com/fsln/gallery.htm
 * Which finds this earliest (Aug 1, 2001) version: http://web.archive.org/web/20010801232853/http://members.aol.com/fsln/gallery.htm

The original search was a lot faster than documenting the process!

To sum up, as far as we can tell from the archived record (which is not necessarily complete), your cited MSU source itself cites only the AOL page in reference to the Olmec1 photo, makes no reference to its status as a scientific photo and no mention of its copyright status. The speculation that the AOL photo (first full version archived October 29, 2002) was derived from either MSU (first use archived May 7, 2003) or Wikipedia (Feb. 3, 2006) is not supported by the evidence. And even if MSU were the original source, Wikipedia must still have good evidence that it is available to copy, evidence that is not yet forthcoming.

Of course I could be wrong and if I am I hope you will set me right. —Blanchette 10:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Blanchette -- I appreciate all that work on the archives, so I am disappointed to say that my research came up dry. I cannot find the legal case that I was thinking of, where the court ruled that some photos of public domain objects are done without creativity and therefore do not create a new copyright.  There is no citation in my notes, and I can't find it in the hornbook.  So it looks like I have to concede that, even if MSU did take the photograph (and I based that conclusion more on the knowledge that MSU would not violate the law by concealing authorship than on any archive search) I can't prove that under US law the photo is public domain.  So the photo can be removed, and I will obviously refrain from posting any similar photos. --M @ r ē ino 15:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Mareino, the only relevant case I'm familiar with is the one I alluded to regarding photos of two-dimensional PD works. It's covered here in Wikipedia:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp.

I might add that I concur with the court's decision — copyrights are intended to protect creative work. —Blanchette 05:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I just received a message, yet I don't even have an account

Category of "women writers" under review for reinstatement
Hi! I hope you will pardon this notice, but the category "women writers" was recently deleted and is now up for deletion review. I noticed that you commented on an earlier discussion about "women" as a qualifier in categories and thought that you might like to know about the current discussion. scribblingwoman 16:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)