User talk:Maria202/DraftOfClayAiken

Fans
Now that they have that musical parody about his fans we might be able to incorporate that. - Maria202 04:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly--I was thinking the same thing! It could even go under pop culture in general.  I think it's more of a parody of the whole Idol phenomenon--he's the face of Idol for a lot of people.  It seems like you have some ideas floating in your head already about this and the controversies section too, so go for it--please!


 * I'm through messing around for tonight. I just wanted to try some things out without deleting much of what was already there, just shift things around.  Feel free to do whatever!  I'm actually enjoying this a little.  -Jmh123 05:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking good
Strike outs from old version - if I agree may I delete these passages? -Jmh123 16:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course. I just didn't want to loose them if you did not agree. - Maria202 16:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure.  -Jmh123 16:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Idol Gives Back
All we know for certain is that he was in NYC receiving an award. Anything said about why he wasn't on IGB would be pure speculation. For that reason, I think we should not mention it at all. - Maria202 16:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point. Maybe the AI story should just end with AI5. -Jmh123 16:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems like it does anyway. - Maria202 16:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * YUP.

Author/Philosophy
That is drastic. It doesn't seem to flow right. Need to think on this a bit. - Maria202 01:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's OK if you don't like it--just trying something out. The word religion got me thinking.  I'm not sure I like it either.  -Jmh123 01:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the heading title and the idea of combining the book with his philosophy but it needs to relate to who he is and why. What's there now doesn't give any insight into why he makes the choices he does.  Maria202 01:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. That's a thought. I like it. -Jmh123 01:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

remaining rewrites
We've got a part of American Idol, plus television, and pop culture (fans) left for rewriting. Wanna divvy these up for the big rewrite part of the process? If so, do you have any preferences as to which you'd like to work on? I could finish Idol, if you like--and maybe TV? Not really attached here, honestly, just asking. -Jmh123 01:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've got no preferences either. Doesn't matter to me.  I've been looking at other bios trying to get an idea of how to tackle the fan section and so far nada.  Got to think on that a bit. Maria202 01:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a hard one, no doubt. Nobody's fans that I know of are as much a part of a current musician's identity as Clay's, but how to talk about it? I'll start with AI next, and then on to TV, but feel free to critique, advise, edit and so forth.  I'll also keep thinking about fans too.  WRAL is about to do a segment on the musical during the 10pm news tonight, introduced on the promo as being about "Claymates". If you have more ideas about author/philosophy, please go with that.  -Jmh123 02:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I searched all evening last night for anything that could be used as a source to discuss the fans and came up empty. Aside from disparaging remarks categorizing them as either all teenagers or all old women there does not seem to be any article that does an unbiased focus on the diversity of the fan base. The fans themselves know this but without a credible source it would be classified as original research.  For that reason, I think it would be better to eliminate the category entirely and instead, possibly have a mention in one of the other sections if a fan mention relevant.
 * I also think that the makeover should become part of the AI5 mention. I think that is the most appropriate place for it since it's part of why the AI5 appearance was memoriable.
 * Thoughts? Maria202 12:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. Fans--What will happen to the Holleman quote?  What about the musical?  Just ditch all that? I can certainly do without the stuff that's in "fans" now.  I can see your point.  Not sure. Makeover--I don't see the whole thing in the AI section, but I can see it as a subcategory of AI, right at the end. I'll think about this too.  Try an experiment if you want so I can see.  I do think the entry is too long.  -Jmh123 14:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have rewritten TV and Idol, and did some edits on your expansion of the lead. (I stole some of this for TV.) Feel free to edit, revise, criticize, and so forth. -Jmh123 17:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I also tried out "makeovers" as a subhead of Idol, and edited a bit to try to frame it with the photo. I didn't erase the other version.  -Jmh123 17:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I saw. Check what i did with the fan section. It's a fact that no one can prove where the name came from or that there are no third party citations confirming or disputing so I stated is as such. With that section remaining, we could probably leave the makeover in there as it is referenced by various print and magazine articles all the time. What do you think? Maria202 17:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I just saw what you did with the fan section--great stuff--and I totally agree. I'll delete the makeover experiment. -Jmh123 17:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I really like the fan section; I'm amazed at all the refs you came up with! -Jmh123 18:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Cross-outs. If there are any cross-outs you're OK with, please delete them. Otherwise, you can uncross-out them (lol). Looks like we have made amazing progress. The last big unresolved section, I think, is now Learning to Sing/religion/philosophy, which I think you have some ideas on, right? -Jmh123 18:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * See if you like my rewrite. Maria202 19:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Got to get a bus to pick up my car from the shop. I'll look afterwards.  Yay you for tackling this one.

I added the originial tour info into the paragraphs. If you don't like it just delete it. I left the original section there just in case. I'm not certain a seperate page is the way to go at this point. Yes, he tours a lot, but none are what could be considered big enough for their own page. Maria202 20:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * True--I put it back as it was, since I think the narrative version flows better without the list elements in between. -Jmh123 22:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

A radical proposal
After the JP AfD, some folks came along and deleted a whole lot of stuff that I didn't mind seeing go. And yet, there is no doubt that this crap is a part of his story for many people. I'm wondering if we should include Clay's responses to the topic. What do you think of adding a short section under pop culture--or a paragraph in the bio--like this:

title??
Aiken has been the subject of tabloid gossip and gay jokes by Conan O'Brien, Jay Leno, Kathy Griffin, and Mad TV, among others. He describes the gossip and jokes as "...like having a gnat in your nose. You just want to kill it. It becomes unfortunately a negative part of what you do, and you need to kind of live with it. But if you could get up your nose and kill it, you would do it." In September 2006 Aiken sat down for televised interviews with Diane Sawyer of Good Morning America, Lara Spencer of The Insider, Larry King (Larry King Live), and spoke to People magazine (October 2, 2006 issue) in conjunction with the promotion of his new album, A Thousand Different Ways. When Spencer asked if he was ready to set the record straight about his sexual orientation, Aiken replied, "I'm just not commenting anymore. There's no point, I've answered before." Aiken told People, "It doesn't matter what I say. People are going to believe what they want. I don't like having crap spread about me to everybody. But I've kind of unfortunately come to know that it's part of what I'm doing." Spencer asked him if reading the speculation in the tabloids upset him. Aiken replied, "At first it's a little bit painful, a little bit harmful, you know, to see that and think, 'Oh God there actually are gonna be people who see that and believe this, which is preposterous.'" Discussing the tabloid stories with Larry King, Aiken said the people who know him know the stories are not true.


 * And this affects his career how? Sorry - I'm for leaving it out.  It's gossip and tabloid fodder.  Nothing more than opinions and speculation.  Maria202 19:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I did say it was radical. I won't push it--just thought there might be value in including his comments on the topic, since most people seem fairly ignorant about his responses.  -Jmh123 19:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In September 2006, in conjunction with the promotion of his new album, A Thousand Different Ways Aiken sat down for televised interviews with Diane Sawyer of Good Morning America, Lara Spencer of The Insider and Larry King (Larry King Live). When Sawyer brought up the rumors and tabloid speculation that have plagued Aiken regarding his sexuality he told her "What I do in my private life is nobody's business anymore." Referencing the Sawyer interview Spencer asked if reading the speculation in the tabloids upset him. Aiken replied, "At first it's a little bit painful, a little bit harmful, you know, to see that and think, 'Oh God there actually are gonna be people who see that and believe this, which is preposterous.'" and said "I'm just not commenting anymore. There's no point, I've answered before." King also used clips from the Sawyer interview to bring up the rumors and question Aiken on the subject. Aiken said the people who know him know the stories are not true. In a published interview with People magazine (October 2, 2006 issue) Aiken said "It doesn't matter what I say. People are going to believe what they want. I don't like having crap spread about me to everybody. But I've kind of unfortunately come to know that it's part of what I'm doing."


 * Your title question: No title - if used it should be included with the Television section. It's part of the TV interviews he did for promotion.  Maria202 15:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * People wasn't on TV. I liked some aspects of the order I had better than your revised version, but it's moot at this point anyway, as any discussions of a proposed version to place on the page are going to have to take place there. -Jmh123 17:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Blender
All I can find in the CH archives and my own files is this -- Blender's 2007 list of "Hottest Women (and Men) of … American Idol" -Jmh123 23:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You lost me. I've no idea what you mean. Maria202 23:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm talking about "Aiken is listed on Blender's 2007 list of hottest people in music." -Jmh123 00:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we rock or what?
I can't believe we did all this in two days!! -Jmh123 23:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. We done good.  Did you see what I crossed out in the intro? Maria202 01:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good catch on that sucky sentence. Much better title for the LTS/Phil. section.  Do we dare now ask for comment on the Aiken talk page, or just be bold, and make the switch??  -Jmh123 01:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Elvis Presley article has undergone a major rewrite the past couple of weeks. The editors doing it decided to just be bold.  If we do that, we should put something about it on the talk page.
 * We're close to the recommended maximum page length so I'm going to remove the tour section and see what that buys us.

Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose. Thus the 32 KB recommendation is considered to have stylistic value in many cases; if an article is significantly longer than that, it may benefit the reader to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries (see Wikipedia:Summary style). Maria202 02:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * OK by me on being bold, mentioning on "talk" and removing the tour section. Do you think we should add any of the detail from that section that wasn't included in the narrative Tours section (I'll change the name back).  Just looked it over and there isn't anything but the names of the opening acts.  -Jmh123 02:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Changing the title back is good. We've got to re-wiki the catagories at the bottom once it's copied over. Maria202 02:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hope you know how to do that - lol - I wasn't smart enough to know to un-wiki them to begin with. -Jmh123 02:16, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's easy. But then everything is easy when you know how. :) So, which it first, warning we're doing it or copying over? Maria202 02:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Copy, then notify, IMO. Want to do the honors?  -Jmh123 02:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Gee thanks. I'll do the copy - you tell them why.  Your better at that than I am.  We did it to conform to Wiki standards on biographys blah blah blah. Maria202 02:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Deal. -Jmh123 02:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * DONE!!! Do your thing. Maria202 02:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * DONE!!! Feel free to edit or add, also to change from "Maria and I" to "we" and sign if you want. -Jmh123 02:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Here, have a virtual glass of champagne--*clinks glasses*. Here's to us. -Jmh123 02:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that was rather painless. Much easier than I thought it would be.  We do rock. Maria202 02:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

De-fanning the article
People always say that this is obviously written by fans, and as I look at it even in the new version, I tend to agree. Unfortunately, the solution that is always offered is to bring up various scandals, and we have the BAF, Ripa, PETA still integrated into the article. Interestingly, the consensus from uninterested parties who wander by these days is to delete all the tabloid stuff. So, what's a better approach to de-fanning the article? Maybe part of it is that we still have too much stuff? Do you think we should ask ArglebargleIV to come by and do the strike-out thing on a draft on the new version--see what cuts he thinks could be made? -Jmh123 03:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I asked that Jeffree person to take a look and comment if he had a chance. I kept thinking about the fan stuff while I was writing and tried to stick to facts.  It's not our fault that he's done everything we wrote.  You can ask Arglebargle if you want.  I saw that very complaint on the Elvis talk page after they got done rewriting it. The guys doing the rewrite really made every effort to be neutral. You can't please everyone.  Maria202 04:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I looked at Kelly Clarkson's entry, and it's as detailed as Clay's. I tried to stick to facts too, but it's hard to be objective.  Plus we have access to incredibly detailed archives for Clay.  I expanded slightly a few old stubs of great 20th artists now deceased, but it was so hard to find information about them.  Let's just wait and see for a few days, and see what Jeffree says.  -Jmh123 04:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

PETA
Parking this here for now as I don't know what to do with it. As you know, I think it's ridiculous to continue to mention an ad campaign that didn't happen in 2003, but you pointed that he does still sometimes say, "sorry PETA," for one reason or another, or words to the effect of "don't pick on me PETA for saying xxxx." I just don't think it fits in the Idol section, and I think it trivializes the Rolling Stone cover article by reducing it to one topic when it was about a lot of different things. Maybe you have an idea where it might better fit. -Jmh123 09:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Rolling Stone featured Aiken on the cover of their July 2003 issue. In the cover article he mentioned accidentally running over his kitten when he was sixteen, saying, "Seeing that cat die, I actually think that its spirit has haunted me. I wasn't afraid of cats before. But now they scare me to death." Later that year PETA, based on Aiken's comment, drafted an insulting ad featuring Triumph the Insult Comic Dog. Aiken's attorneys stepped in and PETA spokeswoman Ingrid Newkirk told the New York Daily News. "We got a lawyer calling and our lawyers said maybe we can work something out, make the ad evaporate, and put a leash on the insult dog." The ad campaign never launched.