User talk:Marokwitz/Archives/2011/December

Jews and the slave trade
Concerning your point of discussion on the article: Jews and the slave trade, I would like to say I fiercely second that. More so, I find the topic itself objectionable and suspicious. Would you consider supporting a nomination for deletion?

J ohnHope9 1  Coffee Talk   —Preceding undated comment added 20:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC).


 * Hi, I'm not sure, there are many academic sources on this topic, so I'd say it is notable enough to have its own article, by Wikipedia standards. Our goal, I believe, should be to correct the remaining bias and tone issues. Marokwitz (talk) 10:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Lieberman at Arab citizens of Israel
It's funny. I was just wondering yesterday where you had gone. Haven't seen you around for a while and I've always thought you were one of the more sensible editors in the topic area. Anyway, about Lieberman at Arab citizens of Israel, I struggled a bit with the wording myself, toyed with simply replacing the whole thing with something like 'controversial because of the Lieberman Plan' but I'm not sure your version is much better. The plan involves de-naturalization/removal of citizenship for those who wished to remain in the same place if they happen to be in a area that is being transferred. Frankly, ethnicity/spatially based removal of citizenship is a fairly extraordinary suggestion in the 21st century hence "tensions rose". The VOA source cited explicitly describes it as "stripping Israeli Arabs of their citizenship" which is perhaps too decontextualized but I do think that if we are going to go into details it's important to somehow convey that it involved removal of Israeli citizenship from Israeli citizens. I should perhaps mention that I live in a country where very many people don't even get citizenship because, as hill tribes, they are not considered to be citizens and their movements are very restricted. I'm also almost always somewhere where, as a non-citizen, I have absolutely no rights at all, zero. So, I'm not trying to demonize anyone or misrepresent anything here. Perhaps it's a case in the Arab citizens of Israel article where less is more and we should just say something very brief and point people at the Lieberman Plan article ?  Sean.hoyland  - talk 09:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind words. I've been kind of busy lately. I wouldn't argue with you on the morality of the Lieberman plan, my personal opinion really does not matter although I admit I am far from being his greatest fan. It is clear to me that your intentions were not to misrepresent the plan, sorry if my edit summary inadvertently implied otherwise. Still, IMHO the original short description was not fully accurate, the sources I've read make it clear that Lieberman did not call for removal of citizenship based on ethnicity, rather (at least the stated) intention was to redraw the borders between Israel and the Palestinian Authority along more natural population division lines aiming to reduce friction between Arab and Jews, while allowing existing Arab citizens to relocate and retain their citizenship. Proponents of this plan say that there are international precedents for the idea of populated land exchange, and it is not illegal under international law. I support making the description shorter, but not at the cost of oversimplifying. Marokwitz (talk) 11:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem, I'm okay leaving it as it is. Actually I've only just noticed that the article has a Land and population exchange section that also covers it. The article probably needs a bit of reorganizing at some point...  Sean.hoyland  - talk 14:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Exclusion of women in Israel
If you can I would be happy if you would help me improve this article which I created that covers one of the latest most controversial issues in the Israeli society. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 02:02, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Frankly I don't like this article, which regardless of my personal opinion, is biased towards the liberal/secular/western point of view. I think that it is at least in current form a POV fork and should be merged with Women in Israel. Furthermore I think that the description is lacking coverage of non-Jewish women, as well as streams in Judaism other than Ultra-Orthodox. The majority of observant Jews in Israel do not support discrimination of women, and even the Ultra-Orthodox deny their beliefs are discrimination. Marokwitz (talk) 08:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Due to the importance of presenting this highly covered and debatable topic in an objective and balanced way to the general public AND because I know you have a lot of knowledge in this field, I ask you to please help me rewrite it (you can even do a complete re-write if you think it is necessary), expand it and balance the contents of the article as much as you can. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I still think that the content should be merged and redirected to Women in Israel for a more comprehensive and balanced view. This does not mean that we need to delete contents and lose your work; I only suggest a reorganization. Marokwitz (talk) 08:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I trust your judgment. Please go ahead and make the changes you think are necessary. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 21:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

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