User talk:MarshallBagramyan/Archive 2

Re: Translating the Azeri SSR anthem
Hey, thanks Marshall! I asked Baku87 to do it awhile back but he seems to have ignored my request. Is there any possibility that you could also translate the Tajik SSR anthem? -- Clevelander 20:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, any luck finding information regarding the Azeri massacres of Armenians in Nakhichevan? Thanks! -- Clevelander 20:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Tajik is a dialect of Farsi and it's written in modified Cyrillic so it might be a bit different. Anyway, if you can't translate it, that's okay.  The Azerbaijan SSR anthem would be just fine. -- Clevelander 21:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Saying that Tajik is a dialect of Farsi is wrong. You might say that Tajik is a variety of Persian, but not of Farsi. And it isn't even really a dialect, as there is a standard, normative form. It would be like saying that Macedonian is a "dialect" of Bulgarian, or Afrikaans is a "dialect" of Dutch. Incidentally, if you want Tajik translations, ask tg:User:Ibrahim, he's pretty personable. - FrancisTyers · 18:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Walker
Just curious, Marshall, are you familiar with Walker's work? -- Clevelander 01:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, well, I have an idea to resolve our disputes on the Nakhichevan page. I thought that we could have GM explain a bit about Cornell and have you explain about Walker. Then we would have users ask you questions regarding Walker, and GM regarding Cornell.  After this, we could evaluate both men and see if either is credible enough to be referenced on Wikipedia.  Maybe this idea won't work, but it's just something I was thinking about.  Tell me what you think.  -- Clevelander 02:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That and he supports Genocide deniers as well as unification between Karabakh and Azerbaijan. My point, anyway, was to essentially prove this (Cornell's bias). Between you and I, I think that Walker isn't as one-sided as some make him out to be, but I need more proof supporting this claim.  -- Clevelander 23:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggested reading?
I plan I'm doing a complete, more neutral, and well-referenced Nakhichevan history (instead of going through my complicated mediation process as discussed above). But I need you're help. Aside from The Caucasian Knot are there any other books regarding Nakhichevan or its history? I will do as much research as I can to ensure a neutral article, but again, I'd like you to help me too. If you come up with any interesting piece of information regarding Nakhichevan, shoot me a message on my talk page immediately. Thanks! -- Clevelander 00:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are there any books on the region by non-Armenians? Although I respect the work of Richard H., I'm cautious about using him because by his name alone, I could be accused of bias. I want to play it safe (though I will not turn my back to Hovannisian's work - I have volume III here and that seems to have extensive knowledge on Nakhichevan).  -- Clevelander 01:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, so he would make a decent secondary source? I mean, would I run into problems if I added his stuff to the Nakhichevan page? -- Clevelander 01:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Armenian SSR
Hey Marshall, I wouldn't recommend using Walker as a source for the Armenian SSR page. Don't you have another source for that information? -- Clevelander 13:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm beginning to think that Walker is not a solid source, because in some parts of his book: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation," he seems to show some bias. What concerned me the most was that when I looked up one person in the book, Haskell, I found this entry in the index: "Haskell, Col. W.H. 278, 307; a crook 287" Is calling somebody a crook credible?  No true historian should be judgemental when writing a book like this.  Anyway, this is my concern.  -- Clevelander 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know that it can be found online. I'm still cautious about using him (additionally, including him would also flare up further tensions with Azeri editors and we'll be back to square one).  -- Clevelander 19:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Assistance needed
Marshall, in regards to Nakhichevan, I need your help in helping me prove something to GM, mainly the fact that Azerbaijan's Karki exclave came under Armenian occupation after Azerbaijan began shelling targets from Nakhichevan. -- Clevelander 17:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * May 1992. -- Clevelander 18:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell me what you think of this so far: User:Clevelander/Nakhichevan. -- Clevelander 19:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback and thanks for helping me out in regards to the Nakhichevan page. -- Clevelander 19:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan article - how's it looking so far?
I've fixed it up and added some images: User:Clevelander/Nakhichevan. Tell me what you think so far. -- Clevelander 23:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the information. The numbers seem close to those of the 1914 Russian census as cited in the New States, New Politics book. Is this from a census conducted in 1917 or is this an estimate from 1917? I'm inclined to believe that it was the latter. -- Clevelander 20:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So does mean that this information is nothing new? -- Clevelander 20:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. This also confirms what I stated on the Nakhichevan page [for the 1914 statistics], so I was just wondering. -- Clevelander 21:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The face of war
Hey Marshall, Luis Dingley recently sent me a lot of great photographs of the Karabakh war from his collection. See if you can use these. -- Clevelander 22:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sumgait Massacre
Golly, I somehow missed that message on my talk. I'm heading over there right now, again, I'm sorry! Yank sox  20:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Hey! Sure, I'll try my best. I've left a comment at the talk page. &mdash; Khoikhoi 04:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Tell me what you think of this. -- Clevelander 18:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Genocide userbox
Hey Marshall, I made this template awhile back and I thought you might want to add it to your user page (like I have):

-- Clevelander 23:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, I revised the wording of the template. What do you think of it now? -- Clevelander 15:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Suny
Where does Grigor Suny say that he supports the unification of Azerbaijan and calls the Armenian Genocide something that was not planned in its stead? Just curious. -- Clevelander 01:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Drugs
Thanks :)

About the symptoms, Stupor would tend to rule out stimulants, however that still leaves quite a wide range of drugs to choose from. It says oral poisoning, but that doesn't really help much -- as many drugs could be administered orally.

If we look at the diagram on Psychoactive drug, we can also probably rule out anti-psychotics, as they would most likely not have had access to them. Probably also rule out hallucinogens. Unfortunately from the description, it is describing his symptoms after treatment not before, "Stupor was alleviated, cries in response to noxious stimulus. Pupils equally round and reactive to light and accommodation..." etc.

I'd say you're looking at a drug in the red or yellow sections of that diagram. You could probably narrow it down further by working out what they would have access to. Its a shame they don't give the times involved, as that could narrow it down too. Of course another problem is that the child was 3, the effects of a drug on a three year old will be much more pronounced than on an adult. - FrancisTyers · 15:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but the colour of the tablets doesn't really help. The fact that it is a tablet rules out Nitrous Oxide and Chloroform though, along with Alcohol and Ether. If we were to take a pure "probability" &mdash; e.g. most likely approach, its probably Barbituates, Benzodiazepines or Ketamine, definitely not PCP or DXM. Incidentally, it is a shame we don't have an article on Drug use in the Soviet Union. It would make an interesting exploration. - FrancisTyers · 18:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

NK War
Yes, there's a database error. Don't edit the page for now. &mdash; Khoikhoi 18:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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Did you...
See this?: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/08/07E46CF7-FD9C-4920-BEC2-D7937DDFE3ED.html

Interesting stuff! -- Clevelander 01:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually agree. The Soviet anthems, in my opinion, of (for instance) Armenia, Ukraine, Georgia, and even Azerbaijan had more rousing tunes than the current ones.  Out of all those I especially enjoy Ukraine which has this really great patriotic tune to it (Georgia too in some respects).  The Azerbaijani one is almost like setting music to a Kurdish sword fight.  It's fast and energetic (the one they have now is way too militaristic - but I suppose that's fitting given their enormous military spending).  I like the Armenian one a lot better than the present "Mer Hayrenik" (which I call the "Dashnak anthem") as it seems to manifest the struggle of the Armenian people.  I also love Khachaturian's work so that's a plus.  I can also see the lyrics being changed for this too.  For instance, one could replace "New times came to us with Lenin" with "Salvation came to us with Christ."  I could also see "Our Party, reliable and strong" turned into "Our nation, reliable and strong" or the line that follows it, "Is leading us steadily to Communism" changed to "Is leading us steadily to freedom!"


 * However, as Armenia looks towards selecting a new anthem, I think that the tune should be something more European, like the Ukrainian SSR, Georgian SSR, Russian, Czech, Polish or German anthems. Something rousing and awe-inspiring, something that represents the Armenian nation, something that represents liberty, justice, purity, strength, and unity.  The proposed Charents anthem sounds like it has good lyrics but the tune is too somber - it's almost like the Israeli national anthem (which is even more depressing). -- Clevelander 11:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Greco-Armenian relations
Hi, if you speak Armenian, could you please check the Armenian names at Greco-Armenian relations. Thanks. --Telex 17:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh
The Second Chechen War article (which is basically one messy timeline) isn't featured, now is it? ;-) Not sure if you want to make NK War a FA, but some models you might want to look at are Toledo War, Italian War of 1521, Corinthian War, and War of the League of Cambrai. Cheers. &mdash; Khoikhoi 03:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Shushi tank
I'll upload it soon... --RaffiKojian 11:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've uploaded it. I will mention I have already stopped putting Armeniapedia.org on pics I upload here, but the one that was on the tank most certainly did not reduce the clarity.  --RaffiKojian 02:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

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Happy independence day!
Today Armenia celebrates 15 years of independence! Kenats't! -- Clevelander 00:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Your DYK
Hi MarshallBagramyan, the DYK you have submitted is from an article that is wrongly placed in today's section. It was created on 18th and it needs to be put under the date on which it was created. I am doing so for you. This is to inform you of the same -- Lost (talk) 17:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not liking this...
See here: and  -- Clevelander 20:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I never saw the military parade in hraparak, but I did read about it as well as Kocharian's speech. He placed considerable emphasis on the military as well as the achievements of Armenia. It was actually pretty good.


 * BTW, I also stumbled accross something of a rarity the other day - an old video tape of mine from the 1980s. Included are ABC news reports about the events surrounding the falling of the Berlin Wall and looking through the tape, I found a lengthy report on the NK conflict (it even includes a statement by an "Armenian activist" - who is actually Robert Kocharian before anybody knew who he was).  One Armenian man from NK made an interesting comment that "Karabakh [was] like a child, taken away from its mother."  Pretty neat stuff.  I'm going to capture frames from it and upload them to Wikipedia next weekend.  -- Clevelander 10:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

RfC
Hi, I'm informing editors who have recently contributed to similar articles that there's an RfC at: Talk:Turkey#Request_for_Comment:_Sanitization_of_Turkish_history concerning the Armenian Genocide. Feel free to add your say, and pass the message on. Yandman 08:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't misunderstand what has been said.. nobody was trying to discuss the meaning of the word denial.. it was not the Afd for the denial article :)).. The discussion was about how to put it in context, there have been some edits that made so that half the turkish-eu section got imbroiled with this.. The contoversy surrounding this issue needs to be addressed, but it also needs to be balanced.. There is no conspiracy, the articles about the turkish history and republican history are still not complete.. I had recently copy-edited Armenian-Turkish relations, there I added that the emotions surrounding the Armenian Genocide are the biggest stumbling-block to a true peace in the caucasus - so I am not trying to push an agenda :)) Certain things take time, when the corresponding articles become uptodate and interlinked, this issue will definitely be addressed, until recently that article had a link to the article of turkish scouts!! there is still work to be done.. cheers! Baristarim 18:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

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Ararat or Van
Just curious, Marshall, but if Armenia were ever to stretch into any territory of Turkey, which area do you think would be more significant for Armenia? Mount Ararat or Lake Van? -- Clevelander 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why specifically? -- Clevelander 23:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand. Specifically, I believe that the provinces in Turkey are hold greater significance to the Armenians rather than the Turks are Iğdır, Kars, Ardahan, Artvin, Rize (simply for the fact that there are already Armenians living there - the Hamshenis), Van, Erzurum, Muş, and Bitlis.  Of course, I also believe that Nagorno-Karabakh should become part of this new Armenia as well as a few areas on the Ararat plain in the northwestern most point of Iran.  If they ever gets this large territory, though, I would think that they should lend some rights to the Kurds who are scattered about it, so as to prevent rebellions like those that we see in present-day Turkey.  They are no longer the villians that were portrayed in 19th century Armenian literature.  They can now be our allies in any potential struggle against Turkey.  Same goes for the Laz people who live along the Black Sea.  There should also be a population exchange between all the Turks living in the area and any remaining Armenians in Turkey (particularly from Istanbul) and between the Georgians of Artvin and Ardahan with the Armenians from Samtskhe-Javakheti. The rest of the Armenians should be settlers from the diaspora. -- Clevelander 09:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * By pseudo-Christians, do you mean the Hamshenis? Actually, they are just as Armenian as you or I.  The ones living in Turkey now are Islamified, but the vast majority prior to the genocide were Christian and most of these moved to Sochi or Abkhazia.  I have spoken to a few of these Hamshenis and they follow the Armenian Apostolic Church and even refer to their dialect of Armenian as Armenian.  Some missionary work and Christian Armenian settlement could reverse the Islamification of the Hamshenis in Turkey.  Forgive me, I have a very basic understanding of Armenian, so I'm not sure I followed everything you said in your last message. -- Clevelander 02:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I understand...the Վրացիs...I don't think they're too bad, but their has always been something of a rivalry between them and us stemming back to antiquity. Their relations with Russia could be bad news for us.  I also don't believe that it's impossible to convert a Muslim to Christian, provided the proper surroundings. Of course, conversion to another faith would violate Islamic law, but if they're not Muslims anymore (due to conversion), then why should they need to worry about it?  And why should the Armenians attempting to re-convert their compatriots worry as well?  I have also read that both the Hamshenis and the Laz (who are not Georgians, by the way) are also not very strong followers of their Sunni Islamic faith.  -- Clevelander 02:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but those were American missionaries. There will of course be a barrier (both linguistic and cultural) between them and the foreign ethnic groups they encouter.  However, I believe that Armenian missionaries can successfully convert the Hamshenis because both share a common language. -- Clevelander 02:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a question. Did the Armenian nation begin at Van or at Mount Ararat.  According to the tradition I've been taught, it was founded when Haik settled at the foot of Mount Ararat?  I'm not sure if this is totally accurate, though. -- Clevelander 02:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Armenian rebellions?
Have you seen this? -- Clevelander 23:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:
Absolutely. I noticed that too.--Eupator 02:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * IE; however, I just checked in Firefox and seems normal in Firefox.--Eupator 02:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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-
I hope something can be done on this. What do you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Van#April.2C_19[[Category:]]

Response
Not sure—try asking at Village pump (technical). &mdash; Khoikhoi 19:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey
What's the correct spelling of "Hovhannes Baghramian" in Armenian--is it Հովհանես Բաղրամյան or Հովհաննես Բաղրամյան? Thanks. &mdash; Khoikhoi 15:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, that's happened to me as well. &mdash; Khoikhoi 06:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

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History of NK
Marshall, would you be interested in helping rewriote the History of Nagorno-Karabakh article? -- Clevelander 08:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Van article
Hey, I am trying to rewrite the Van resistance article, and fix it in general. I am wondering if you can help me in doing htis and countering the Turkish user OttomanReference. (Hetoum)(149.68.138.245 16:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC))

Turkey going overboard?
Turkey is really going nuts over France's Armenian Genocide recognition bill:


 * Turkish MFA: French Parliament “Wounded Souls of Turkish People”
 * Ankara Decided to Freeze Political and Military Relations with Paris
 * Turkey Compiled “Shame List” of Massacres Committed by European Countries in Past
 * L'Oréal – Recurrent Victim of Turkish Boycott
 * Turkish Nationalists to Protest French Bill on Armenian Genocide
 * Turkish Parliament May Discuss Algerian Genocide Law
 * Turkish Speaker Doubts “Chirac's Apology Genuine”

What I find most extraordinary about this is that we're not even talking about a law, but a bill. It hasn't even decided if it will be ratified or not. The next thing you know, they'll be burning effigies of Chirac or even worse they'll be orangizing a pogrom to "completely eliminate the Armenians from Istanbul" and to "solve the Armenian question in Turkey once and for all." -- Clevelander 01:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This has got to be important enough to mention in "foreign relations" of the Turkey page. yandman  16:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Genocide template
Sure! I just need to get some work done first, then I'll do it. -- Clevelander 20:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * How's this?: Template:Armenian Genocide -- Clevelander 21:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Books instead of newspapers
Maybe this could be of use to you:--Eupator 19:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Btw, can you scan and upload when you have time one of the Zoravar Andranik photos that you mentioned you have once?--Eupator 00:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Armenian Genocide
I'm not sure if there's enough vandalism to semi-protect. I'll ask someone else and get back to you, ok? Khoikhoi 23:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, but don't forget that semi-protection discourages newcomers from being bold and contributing... Tell ya what, I have the page on my watchlist, so if the vandalism increases at some point (I'm sure it will) I'll semi-protect it. However, right now things seem to have calmed down. Khoikhoi 01:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Question
Hey Marshall, just wondering (and I asked this to some of our Armenian colleagues) but do you think that Armenia will ever reclaim any of its territory from Turkey? -- Clevelander 20:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Mercs
Hey Marshall, weren't a good number of the mercs on both sides actually Ukrainian? --Eupator 18:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)