User talk:Marshelec/Archive 3

Proposed new article for Arch Jelley
I would like to create a new article for Arch Jelley, the New Zealand athletics coach, but I have never written (or contributed to) a biographical article before. Arch was awarded a Companion of the NZ Order of Merit in the 2021 New Years Honours list published today. While he is mentioned in other articles, there is no article for him. I have found a few good references, but the article really needs a photo. How do authors normally go about getting hold of a photo for biographical articles that is not copyright ?

I have found this Wikpedia policy that I will read through before getting underway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

Here is my initial list of references:
 * https://athletics.org.nz/legends/arch-jelley/
 * http://www.russianconvoyclub.org.nz/MyStoryArchJelley.html
 * https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/300189490/super-coach-arch-jelley-who-would-nominate-a-98yearold-for-new-years-honour
 * https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/new-year-honours-2021-sportspeople-recognised-in-honours-list/OEQA5MJFN62NKMYQUTDFBZ6ISM/
 * https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/big-read-the-oldest-olympic-coach-in-the-world/5U2PPZBFOCC3SPZG6BXSELBLPY/

Marshelec (talk) 01:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Marshelec, that looks like an excellent choice for a bio. I wrote one just the other day for a coach just one year younger (and there's more to do on that one). As you write good articles, here's what I reckon you should do:
 * reading the BLP policy is a great start
 * write it in draft space (you do that anyway, don't you?) and I'll look over your shoulder when you want
 * write the article first and only once it's done, write the lead
 * don't use categories whilst the article is in draft space
 * when done, give me a shout and I can advise on potential improvements


 * Regarding photos, well, that's a tough one. I have a Flickr account that I use for the sole purpose of asking others to change licenses to something compatible. Other tricks involve asking people via social media. I've tasked a Dunedinite with hunting down my coach and taking a photo. But the good news is that the governor-general's office takes photos at investiture ceremonies and they do publish those with a free license. So in a few months' time, there should be a photo forthcoming. Meanwhile, here's a Wikidata entry:  Schwede  66  02:45, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I will get this new article about Arch Jelley underway in draft namespace. With regards to Wikidata, I have had no engagement to date. I am familiar with structured databases (such as those used for athletics event entry management), but I do not understand the connection between Wikipedia articles and Wikidata (or indeed the fundamental rationale for Wikidata).  Is there a good reference/tutorial you can recommend ?  If there is some way of linking from the new article to Wikidata content that would either save me time, or lead to higher quality long term, then I am happy to attempt this.  You will hopefully understand that with regards to Wikidata, my first question as a Wikipedia editor is: "why should I be interested ?" Marshelec (talk) 05:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If you write the occasional article, Wikidata really is of no consequence to you. Happy to elaborate how and when it’s useful if/when we catch up in person at some point. are you aware of a tutorial?  Schwede  66  09:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , great questions! You do not need to care about Wikidata at all, many Wikipedia editors ignore it entirely and that's fine. Others like me love it for its own sake, and as a tool to create lists of articles to work on, store references, and so forth. If you do want to know more, there are a bunch of resources under the Wikidata heading here.


 * Wikidata began as a way of linking the different language versions of Wikipedia pages together. So every Wikipedia page that is published gets a corresponding Wikidata item. That means if you create a Wikipedia page and don't link it to an existing item in Wikidata, someone else (or a bot) will likely come along and link it to a new item, thus creating a duplicate. Duplicates can hang around for a long time before being spotted and merged. For that reason, the one Wikidata skill it is really nice to have is linking your newly published article to an existing Wikidata item. I made a 2 min screencapture to show how to do this.


 * Is Albert Jelly related to Archibald Jelley https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16004046? DrThneed (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No, Albert Archibald Jelly (Arch Jelley) is the well known athletics coach who coached John Walker. Plus, Arch Jelley is still alive :). A separate Wikidata entry has been created for Arch Jelley by User:Schwede66 - see:  .  Thanks for your help. I will ensure that the article I am writing about Arch Jelley gets linked correctly. Marshelec (talk) 23:21, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , I meant are they related as in family members, NZ being a small place and Jelley being an unusual name. :) DrThneed (talk) 23:23, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * . It seems highly likely that the Albert Edward Jelley who is listed as a cricket umpire was the father of Albert Archibald Jelley. The references about Arch Jelley say he was born into a cricket-mad household, plus Albert Edward Jelley would have been aged around 28 when Arch Jelley was born.  I will see if I can find any reliable evidence. Marshelec (talk) 23:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is a reference stating that Arch Jelley's father was Albie Jelley, a first class cricket umpire. Marshelec (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , nice! They have quite the dynasty going on! DrThneed (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've expanded his father's bio. Yes, I also found some sources., if you are interested in the family history, I can tell you what was going on; there is a very well-referenced family tree on Ancestry.com; I have an account there courtesy of the Wikimedia Foundation. It was James Jelley (1831–1914), Arch Jelley's great-grandfather, he came out with his family from London in 1874. They have always lived in Dunedin, it seems. Let me know if that's of interest and I can see what I can find out.  Schwede 66  01:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the many great improvements you made to the draft article about Arch Jelley. I have learned a lot by looking at your edits. I have moved the article into the main space using the moves you suggested, and added some categories - please have a look to see if these are sensible. On another point, how do you add the Wikidata reference number to the Page Information ??

I am finding some difficulty in getting sufficient details about Rachel and Jean to make a useful addition about his Personal Life. Here is all I have got so far, and I am not sure this is worth adding because it lacks important detail: and I haven't attempted a biography before, so I don't know what other sources of information are accessible to provide (for instance) the previous surnames of Rachel and Jean, and perhaps their dates of birth (and death in the case of Rachel). Also, if I could find a reference to the names of the children of Arch and Rachel I would include them. Any suggestions, or shall I leave the article in its current state for other editors to develop further in future ? Marshelec (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Arch Jelley married Rachel in 1953, and she was his partner until her death in 2000.
 * Rachel knew he was a keen card player and encouraged him to attend the Mt Albert Bridge Club.[ https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/433843/arch-jelley-who-would-nominate-a-98-year-old]
 * In 2002, Arch married Jean, who he had met through playing bridge. Arch and Jean between them have eight children, 16 grandchildren and seven great-grandchildren.
 * She has five children; he has three.
 * Nice wee article. Not too shabby for the first bio! What you've got about the wives is just fine; please add it to the article. Through Wikimedia, I have an account on Ancestry.com and I shall have a look whether I can find anything about Rachel. Mostly, that would be the starting point for looking elsewhere, as Ancestry isn't regarded as a reliable source (however, I would certainly trust them on a maiden name). If children's names aren't in newspapers, they don't belong into a bio. To say that "he had five children" or "he had three boys and two girls" is plenty detailed enough.
 * The other thing that's worth adding is his own athletics career as documented in the RNZ piece.
 * Oh, and just out of interest, I've asked Hamish Carson as to when Arch stopped coaching him. The answer was 2017. Not that we can do anything with the info but it confirms that he didn't just stop at the 2016 Olympics.  Schwede 66  07:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)