User talk:Martha H. Jones

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Plural verbs with Elohim as God
See Talk:Plural verbs with Elohim as God... AnonMoos (talk) 22:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Aleim???
Where the heck did you get "Aleim" from? It certainly isn't an adequate representation of the Hebrew letters אלהים!! Furthermore, there is no such thing as capital letters in the Hebrew Alphabet... AnonMoos (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You are correct as to always using small case in Hebrew, thanks for noticing that typo, changing it to small case. As for the spelling it is the transliterated spelling used throughout the online interlinear Bible at  (available for the general public and having no association with myself) which is referenced so as to be easily accessible to the general public. The Hebrew letter aleph, which begins אֱלוֹהִים, אלהים, the name often translated as Elohim, is equivalent to alpha and "A", so it IS a recognized spelling and is used in many transliterations of the Hebrew Bible. Martha H. Jones (talk) 14:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but that's unfortunately not the case. In some particular Hebrew font you use, Aleph may be placed under ASCII "A", He may be placed under ASCII "E" and so on, but what results from this font mapping is most definitely NOT a standard scholarly Hebrew transliteration.  Hebrew "Elohim" is not correctly transliterated or transcribed as "Aleim"[sic] in any language known to me (certainly not in English...). AnonMoos (talk) 21:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Apparently you have not studied widely or you would know that there are many scholars who use the spelling aleim. Try reading outside your own views and scope, you might learn something new. Martha H. Jones (talk) 22:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever, lady; I can go to the original Hebrew language text written in the Hebrew alphabet, and deal with it directly (without bothering with intermediaries intended for people who don't really know Hebrew) -- while all available evidence is that you can't. Furthermore, it's a violation of Wikipedia rules to remove other people's comments from an AFD discussion; do not do so again. AnonMoos (talk) 07:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I did not remove anyone's comments, I don't even know what you are talking about. Martha H. Jones (talk) 00:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You most certainly did; look right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FYHWH_aleim%2C_YHWH%27s_Council_of_Elohim&diff=223622724&oldid=223622163
 * It may be advisable for you to scale back your participation in Wikipedia until you know a litttle bit more about what it is you're actually doing here... AnonMoos (talk) 09:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

(section following was removed in error) ":::Why would I want to use interlinears, when I can directly use the BHS -- without a need for such crutches intended for people who don't really know Hebrew? AnonMoos (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)" (accidentally included in the following notes of my own, when attempting to cut and paste reference material covering the subject under discussion Martha H. Jones (talk) 12:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)) "The Early History of Heaven by J. Edward Wright...The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith...Among the Host of Heaven: The Syro-Palestinian Pantheon As Bureaucracy. Handy, Lowell K."

And further more the interpretations of Hebrew that you support to are only those subscribed to by orthodoxy. Elohim is also an English transliteration of the Hebrew word and one which contains more letters than the Hebrew word, making it also just someone's inaccurate translation, adopted by ignorant followers. You are apparently unable to read Hebrew very well or you would have observed that the first Hebrew letter of אֱלוֹהִים, אלהים, aleph does not correspond to the English letter "E". It has been falsely corrupted by modern Jews (trying to revive a dead language since 1881 when Elizer Ben-Yehuda reintroduced it as a spoken language) to the name Elohim. They had lost the ability to speak their own language so their authority is questionable and the Hebrew language is still constantly under revision, consequently what you think is correct is not written in stone. This spelling of אֱלוֹהִים, אלהים is just one of the many mistakes they have made in the present translation of this and many other Hebrew words. They in their ignorance have established these translations as correct and ignorant people follow blindly accept whatever they are told without bothering to study conflicting evidence. I quoted Higgins as an respected authority who presents conflicting evidence not because I cannot read it for myself. Martha H. Jones (talk) 00:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Godfrey Higgins in his classic book Anacalypsis (V. 1; p. 64-65, 67) gives the etymology of Elohim, originally spelled aleim. He states the following: "Perhaps there is no word in any language about which more has been written than the word Aleim; or, AS MODERN JEWS CORRUPTLY CALL IT, ELOHIM. The root … al, the root of the word Aleim, as a verb or it its verbal form, means to mediate, to interpose for protection, to perserve; and a noun, a mediator, an interposer. In its feminine its has two forms …ale, and … alue. In its plural masculine it makes … alim, in is plural feminine … aleim."

"In the old language God was called Al, Ale, Alue, and Aleim, more frequently Aleim than any other name." Gamble, Eliza Burt. God Idea of the Ancients, See also

MOODY, JAMES. THE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY CONTAINED IN THE HEBREW WORDS ALEIM AND BERIT, stated and defended, against the repeated rabbinical attempts to invalidate and destroy it. And

Higgins, Godfrey. On the Word Aleim or Jewish Trinity (ISBN: 9781428691919)

Higgins was a master of multiple ancient languages and comparative religion, I have more confidence in his erudition than in those brainwashed by dogma from those who teach only one approach to the interpretation (based on religious oppression and censorship) of Hebrew writings. So if you want to forward that religious oppression and censor of those who don't agree with your limited view, that is your choice, but not one that can be respected by those who choose to look deeper into our past. Martha H. Jones (talk) 06:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the article YHWH Aleim to include a wiki link to Higgins Anacalypsis and have partially quoted his position on the corruption of aleim into Elohim.

I have also edited the article on YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim to include published works on the Divine Council in a section titled "Notes"

E. Theodore Mullen, The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early Hebrew Literature, Harvard Semitic Monographs, no. 24 (Missoula, Montana: Scholars Press, 1980).

Lowell K. Handy, Among the Host of Heaven: The Syro–Palestinian Pantheon as Bureaucracy (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1994)

And there is another link on the Divine Council in the link section. I do not know how many reference you want or how much substantiation is expected to demonstrate that numerous scholars have written about and discussed this subject for ages, so I am still hesitant to include authors whose work only touches on the subject under question. Martha H. Jones (talk) 06:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have decided to withdraw from this discussion. I am not interested in further argument with anyone unable understand evidence outside of their own field of inquiry (even when it is substantiated by respected and accredited scholars) If you choose to censor this information now you can always catch up on it in a couple decades when it becomes common knowledge. Martha H. Jones (talk) 01:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 16:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim
I have nominated YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 16:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Plural verbs with Elohim as God
I have nominated Plural verbs with Elohim as God, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Plural verbs with Elohim as God. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of The Levite Scribes the Sopherim
I have nominated The Levite Scribes the Sopherim, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/The Levite Scribes the Sopherim. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of YHWH Aleim
I have nominated YHWH Aleim, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/YHWH Aleim. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

What is going on?
Hi Martha H. Jones: Welcome to Wikipedia. It seems that lately you have been creating articles that quite a few editors feel should be deleted. Why are you creating these rather strange articles? If you wish to see if there is room to start the kind of subjects you have been doing, then perhaps you may want to first get some input and feedback from experienced Judaic editors at WP:TALKJUDAISM. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have some questions. Sincerely, IZAK (talk) 06:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi IZAK; As you respectfully inquired as to why I have written my rather strange articles, the answer is somewhat as follows. First my purpose is always to serve YHWH Al Emeth; Ps. 31:5, “YHWH, God of truth.” Ps. 31:5. Secondly, however, my purpose is also to be of service to YHWH's holy gods (see Dan. 4:8; 5:11 & Ps. 82:1-7), by presenting information on them not usually covered in traditional articles; obscure information indicating that before some of the interpretations by Ezra and the Sopherim, ancient Israelites knew of and paid homage to YHWH's holy council of Elohim.

Even if it is deleted these subjects cannot help but influence any truth-seekers to try and answer for themselves (and perhaps write about for others) as to the meanings of some of the admittedly strange, obscure and little known verses mentioning 'holy gods' in the Bible. I focused on this information especially, as is not usually covered elsewhere in more orthodox articles; also since it is covered elsewhere I did not fill in all the usual background, thank you and blessings for your efforts in doing so.

“There is a master (gbr) in thy kingdom, in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods and in the days of thy father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him;” Dan. 5:11

“I have said Ye are gods* and all of you are children of the most High. Ps. 82:6 *(quoted in John 10:34 by Jesus/Yeschu "Is it not written in your law, I say ye are gods?" Genesis 6:1-2 also refers to our descent from the sons of the Elohim, who took wives from amongst the daughters of 'the adam', e-adm, I.e., humans SHD 120)

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them (tzba-m, plural)." Gen. 2:1

I fully understand that for humanity to begin embracing information on YHWH's holy gods* it would concurrently require a deeper understanding of the work YHWH ordained (Job 38:1-7; Ps. 8:3) for of “all the host of them” in the creation story, and that this is why so many are apposed to discussing it, preferring to believe He was alone. *(Dan. 5:11 alein qdishin @ the spelling used @; cited because someone else virtually accused me of using unacceptable terminology when spelling אלהים with an “a”; it is, however, clearly well recognized by the accomplished Hebrew authors of various interlinear Bibles, see also ieue aleim in Gen. 2:4 and my quote from Higgins.)

In spite of efforts to preserve only the point of view of mainstream theology, the participation of “all the host of them” in our spiritual history could prove to be a necessary part of our understanding; especially if scientifically minded individuals are ever to understand the story of the creation of the 'heavenly placement' (SHD SHD 7760 & 8034), of the sun the earth and the moon, in the light of the original Hebrew version of Genesis. (Gen. 1:16 not actually saying that the stars were created concurrently with the heavenly place of the earth, sun, moon, etc., only that the moon was to rule {shine brighter} over them at night.) So whether my efforts are deleted or elaborated upon, let the whole truth prevail and lead us to greater oneness in our understanding. “YHWH He is becoming (UEIE IEUE) king over all the earth, in that day, YHWH, He shall become One (achd-echad) and His name One.” Zech. 14:9 Martha H. Jones (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If your aim is to describe a previously little-understood theological approach, Wikipedia's no original research and reliable sources policies may make it less than an ideal place to start. These policies have the effect, for better or for worse, of limiting the kind of material that can be published here to only established views which have garnered some sort of previous acceptance. Perhaps another web site might provide a better outlet for what you are attempting to do. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For future reference both Heiser and Higgins are published scholars and all the citations mentioned previously demonstrated that information on a Divine Council of Elohim in the Bible, is not original research. For the admittedly powerful fundamentalists to limit discussion to only their own research and interpretations does not provide the reading public with a neutral point of view. A neutral point of view would allow the public to consider conflicting research that has been published (countering the religious establishment). Michael Heiser's work entitled "נקעי תיננ ןךיעהן ןעמש: Invoking the Council as Witnesses in Amos 3: 13" (it was published in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 2008) is to be found in Google Scholar and Godfrey Higgins "Anacalypsis" is a classic, He even has his own page in Wikipedia. Martha H. Jones (talk) 14:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Oahspe: A New Bible
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