User talk:Master Scott Hall/Homeschooling project

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In an effort to keep all conversations from getting confusing, please direct all questions, comments, suggestions, concerns to this page.

Let me start by saying that I am not stuck on the term homeschooling, it just seems to be the most widespread, recognizable term used to describe this general field of education. Home education, autodidacticism, unschooling, deschooling, alternative education, etc. are all terms synonymous or related to with homeschooling. The final name to be used, I'm certain, will come in due time. --Master Scott Hall 21:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Articles to include
Biblical courtship--This is somewhat tangential to homeschooling. It is certainly prominent in the religious homeschooling community (and probably nigh-infeasible for anyone not homeschooling), but it's not going to be of general interest to everyone interested in homeschooling. (And having it lumped in with homeschooling tends to scare even religious homeschoolers off.) Might be part of a larger subject area, "Christian family emphasis/patriarchy," something like that. I have no idea what you call it. It is interesting to me to see there's an article on that. One of these days I'd like to see an article on the Quiverfull movement. Jdavidb (talk &bull; contribs) 15:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I'm trying to include as much related information as possible in the beginning so that it can be discussed fully. I'm sure the focus will eventually be narrowed somewhat, but I'd like to get some more input before that happens. I imagine that this project will somehow be broken into components, including areas that are of interest mainly to Christians. I hope to not scare off anyone, but I'm not that interested in having timid participation anyway. Thank you for your input, and plase know that your further input would be very welcome.--Master Scott Hall 16:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Just creating Category:Homeschooling and putting these articles in it would be a lot less intimidating. Oh, I see someone already created it, although it only has one entry right now. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Obviously, there is now an article on the Quiverfull movment. Feel free to join in the editing process. CyberAnth 23:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Sign up
If you are interested in participating in this project, please add your name:

On board
 * TangentIdea 03:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC). I'm not particularly skilled in wikification, but my skills generally lie more in the realms of copyediting. A homeschooler myself, having worked for various homeschool organizations and causes (, for one), I also have a significant amount of knowledge and experience in the subject area personally.
 * Master Scott Hall 19:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC). Although a newbie as editor, my strengths are in research, focus, design, copyedit, and (hopefully) NPOV.
 * Sam Spade 09:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC) I am good at mediation, advocation, article clean-up and NPOV enforcement.

Uncommitted
 * Wahoofive
 * Jdavidb
 * Alan Nicoll 05:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC) I want to be a part of this, I think, but don't have much time to devote to it and cannot commit to anything significant.  Will contribute advice and perhaps resources as seems appropriate.
 * Lolly
 * Frecklefoot - No guarantees, but will try to contribute.
 * Carnildo - No time, but I might be able to drop in now and then.

Scope and goals

 * I think the ultimate goal is to create a Portal through which to access all homeschool related articles, resources, Wikibooks, projects, etc. The current Portal:Education is completely devoid of information in this area (unless you dig). After considerable development of this Project, but before trying to launch an independent Portal of our own, we should discuss assimilating our work into their Portal.

&mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) There's no reason not to include a link somewhere on the Portal:Education page to the Homeschooling page right away, and I see you've already requested this there.
 * 2) How many WP articles are there on HS? How many should there be? Maybe you should start by creating a category? One problem is that HS has pretty flexible boundaries. Articles on almost any topic relate somehow to HS.
 * 3) I'd advise focusing on Evaluation and Content Development for now, and leaving the portal idea for later (WP:PORTAL suggests only having portals for "broad subject areas" which will attract a lot of editors). I don't think the Portals are used much anyway. What would the Portal be for? Do you want it to be easy to find all HS-related articles? (The Homeschooling article would serve as well.) Do you want homeschoolers to have access to educational materials? (The whole of Wikipedia serves that purpose.) Do you want to be a web directory for homeschooling resources? (That violates WP:NOT.) Who's the target audience of this Portal?
 * 4) A WikiProject assumes that the scope would be too large to include on Talk:Homeschooling. Is that true? We could archive some of that and thereby leave room for a list of suggested new articles (which seems like the top priority at this point). We've had trouble attracting serious editors to the HS article, though (not counting drive-by shootings).
 * 5) This isn't really related, but what would be fun is to try to attract homeschoolers themselves (by which I mean high-school-age students) to be WP editors. It's a perfect project for them: they can interact with the adult world, learn at their own pace from home, work on whatever topics interested them, and if they make significant contributions it would look great on their college application portfolios.


 * Indeed. I agree with most everything you point out. On your points:
 * I see no reason why this project can't serve as a logical extension/addition to the Portal:Education. I don't have enough time under my belt to know how the organizers of that project would feel about it. Homeschool advocates are not always taken seriously.
 * Agree. Note: I am by no means stuck on a Portal. Whatever direction that best suits this project is where I want to go. Educational materials, yes. Directory, not necessarily. If it is legal to work a directory into a WikiBook, great--but not until everything else is complete. If it is not acceptible in that arena, I won't lose sleep.
 * WikiProject. I am using homeschooling very loosely here. I see a project scope that encompasses many forms of "alternate education". Homeschooling is simply the most recognizable term that I could muster. My intension is to include everything that is outside the realm of "traditional education".
 * Homeschoolees. I have toyed with the idea, but wanted to get a little more input. I don't want to scare off those who think youngsters would be anti-productive. That said, I support their inclusion. One of things that appears to be lacking in the Portal:Education is meaningful material from the students' perspective.


 * You sound like you are interested in this project. Are you in? --Master Scott Hall 18:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Thanks for the invite, BTW. Considering how (loudly) opinionated many homeschoolers tend to be, it might not be a bad idea to develop some plan for dealing with POV situations ahead of time -- something that we abide by for the project. I personally like the Pro/Con style that the current Homeschooling article follows, since it gives people on both sides the space to speak freely. Although I would venture to say that the majority of parents that homeschool do it because of their Christian beliefs, there is a significant minority of Wiccan and atheist homeschoolers, who do not wish to be identified with the former group, and vice versa. I'm not saying that it's an obstacle, but it is something to be considered. --TangentIdea 03:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I couldn't agree more. I have noticed some of the bantering that can happen on topics related to homeschooling (among others). There are a handful of Users who already seem to have established a method of dealing with POV issues. I have tried to invite most of the Users who already participate heavily in this topic. I would only assume that, if they choose to participate, they will bring with them the dispute-solving protocol that they have already been using. I, personally, am not seasoned enough with WikiEtiquette to "lay down the law", so to speak, but I can only assume that I am in for a crash course. I like the Pro/Con approach, but don't know if it is considered the norm on WP. If you know any of the established homeschooling editors, please encourage them to participate. Concerning beliefs, I actually hope that this project will encompass the whole of information that has by-and-large been overlooked by the editors who put together most of the Portal:Education. This would include non-traditional practices of many faiths and backgrounds. Hopefully, we can steer participation toward specific areas of the project, so maybe parties of opposing beliefs will only have to deal with each other on a limited basis. --Master Scott Hall 22:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The official procedure for dealing with controversial topics is given at WP:NPOV. We're supposed to cite sources for arguments for each side, on the theory that stating "X says Y" is indisputable. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find published arguments against homeschooling, either on the web or in print. Many such arguments (even those in the Homeschooling article) are really straw men set up by pro-HSers who wish to refute them. There's no real organized opposition to homeschooling, which is maybe why it's succeeding so well despite the inability of homeschoolers to agree on anything. What this means for that article, or this project, I can't say. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 07:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I am learning fast, I don't have the benefit of experience when it comes to a WikiProject. I can't read about past successes and failures. I (as well as other less experienced members of our group) am counting on the seasoned contributors to make sure that we follow guidelines. TangentIdea brought up a good question. Are WikiProjects allowed any latitude in policy to establish stronger or weaker methods to deal with contributors who prove challenging, or do we simply follow the established guidelines to the letter?


 * WikiProjects aren't allowed any special privileges. They're just a way for a group of editors to coordinate their work. Wahoofive 18:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Opposition. I understand what you are saying. The only real, current opposition I can see is just a general ignorance of the concept—"What's wrong with regular school?". I guess that we could go back to the differences in education theory to find real, historical debate. Most modern schooling methods, conventional and non-, are decendants of sometimes millinia-old theories. Sounds like a lot of work. Another approach: should we refer to the Undue weight portion of the NPOV policy? The way I understand it, majority means majority of those who have an opinion on the subject, as opposed to majority of practitioners. If that is correct then we shouldn't have a problem with an absence of substantial opposition. Master Scott Hall 08:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems to me there have been Supreme Court cases ruling on, essentially, a right to home school. There should be some associated opposition arguments and dissenting opinions available.  Alan Nicoll 16:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. If not the Supreme Court, I know educational issues are usually fought on the state level. I have never researched law. Anyone know where to start on this? Thanks, Master Scott Hall 17:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Participation
Great news. Initial turnout is going faster than I anticipated. So far we have two "yes"s and five definite "maybe"s. We are quickly approaching a good number to begin. Limited-basis participation is a near given since we all probably have commitments inside and outside of WP. So, with part-time participation being the standard, if you are committed to contributing what you can, when you can, please move your name to the "On board" list. If all of the "maybe"s will commit (part-time, understood), we will have seven. I have invited several more, and have recieved responses from a handful. We also need to decide on the size of our team so that can plan a move to a real WikiProject page. WP recommends a team of 5-10. My inclination would be toward the high end of that range. Does anyone have any recommendations based on past experience in WikiProjects? Thanks, Master Scott Hall 15:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't get hung up on the technicalities. Either boldly create the project or just leave it here, but let's focus our attention on improving the encyclopedia. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 18:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Categorization
As Wahoofive mentioned, a category has been created for homeschooling. But it is currently burried in the category structure, and the structure does not make sense to me. It has been pointed out on Category:Education that the entire structure needs an overhaul. I would agree 100%. Homeschooling has no chance of being found now. The straightest, most logical path to it is: Category:Education/Academia/Academic institutions/Schools/Schools/Homeschooling - neither straight or logical in my opinion. I am working on a suggestion, but we need your suggestions as well. Although I don't think we should tackle the entire Category:Education structure right now, I think we should try to think of how it should logically look, so that we know where our subject matter should fit in. Also, I have been trying to think of the overall category that would encompass the scope of our project--the category immediately above Category:Homeschooling. Alternative education is usually used for remedial students, non-traditional is for adults returning to school. If anyone can think of a suitable parent category, please make suggestions. Perhaps this problem has already been solved and I am simply overlooking it. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 15:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seldom used the category structure to find anything. If you type homeschooling into the search box and hit GO, doesn't it take you to right what you need?  Then links within the article provide a kind of structure that seems more readily accessible than the category structure.  Alan Nicoll 16:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I rarely use them either, but mainly because their accuracy and usefulness is not dependable. I would suspect that most readers begin with a Search, but once you find what you are looking for, if it is done right, the categories listed at the bottom are helpful in finding related articles. You may be right, but I think (I don't want to speak for anyone else) that, until a consensus of editors convince WP to do away with the category system, it would be prudent for us to make it a part of our project as well. If you are not interested in that part of the project, article development needs serious work, as do several other aspects. Let me know what you think. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 17:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd put category structure on the back burner. It's easy to fix that later. Add things to the category and create a "see also" to it from the Homeschooling article. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 18:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Project sample
Our project needs a project sample. Since the heart of the project so far seems to be the Homeschooling article. This article has already been worked over pretty well, so it may not need much. The biggest thing is probably that it is edited and approved by concensus. If anyone has suggestions for improving this article, speak up so that we can discuss. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 19:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Project launch
We have five editors contributing significantly to the discussion, a couple more with a little less involvement, and a few more still asking questions. I believe that we have enough participation to get the WikiProject off the ground. In order to avoid this project stagnating before it really gets started, I think we should go ahead with an official WikiProject. I've never gone throught the process before and don't know how compicated it is. If it is like everything else here, it can't be too rough. Just keep using these pages for discussion until we get the other off the ground. Unless anyone objects, I will start the process.

Oh yeah, what are we calling it? Even though we have started with Homeschooling, I don't think it truly represents the overall goal. Perhaps "Alternative education"? Input here would be appreciated so we can get the ball rolling. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 19:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm unclear on what is to be included. "Free Schools" has a pretty good wiki page. Community-Based Learning is another slant but I haven't checked it out. Storefront Schools? Sunday School? Military Academies? Great Books-based programs like St. Johns? I'm brainstorming here, naturally, and most of this is just a name to me. Has anybody taken a look to see what the Open Directory Project has on this? Alan Nicoll 21:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of the subjects you mentioned are examples of components to the overall focus of this project. Education that falls outside the realm of what is normally considered "traditional school", i.e., public, private, parochial, military, etc. Certain types fall into a kind of grey area, i.e., Sunday, charter, correspondence, etc. Many of these follow non-traditional philosophies of teaching/learning, while still being institutionally based, or vice versa.


 * I am just trying to establish a name for the whole of what today's traditional education community doesn't claim. Or, more simply, education which has little-to-no representation in the existing Category:Education. Sounds like a lot, but I am sure we will focus on the more popular methods first, i.e., Homeschooling, Unschooling, Free schools, etc. Then we will see how much energy we all have left for the less popular and grey areas.


 * So, for a name, I am drawn to "Alternative education". "Non-traditional" seems a little more appropriate, but is already widely used to describe adults going back to school. If there are no other suggestions, "Alternative education" is what we will use for the project name. We can always change it later if we need to. Thanks, Master Scott Hall 22:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC) P.S. Does it seem strange to anyone else that the structure of Category:Education seems so random. I haven't looked, but I bet the Category:Mathematics is in much better shape.

Okay, it's official. We are a WikiProject. Everyone should make their way to WikiProject Alternative education at their earliest convenience. Let's get started. Master Scott Hall 00:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)