User talk:Mathglot/Archive 22

My editing tips.

LLM examples, I think
I suspect the small Volcán Telica Rota Natural Reserve article was LLM-generated and would be interested to hear what you think; I'm sure you've got a keener eye for it. Perhaps more unusual was today's attempt to win an argument by posting four versions of a "Discussion on Demography and Demographics" that I strongly suspect was LLM-generated on Talk:Rochdale plus a couple more copies on another editor's talk. It's in a very formal style for that editor, and has a reference to an encyclopedia that I can't locate. I'm not asking for you to get involved – there are several editors there – but maybe you'll find it interesting and/or worthy of Wikipedia talk:Using neural network language models on Wikipedia/List of uses of ChatGPT at Wikipedia. NebY (talk) 15:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
mathgrok might be better :)

Theheezy (talk) 08:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC) 
 * Lol, I like it! If I ever change my username, I will seriously consider that. Mathglot (talk) 08:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
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 * ✅. Mathglot (talk) 16:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment
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 * Expired. Mathglot (talk) 19:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:French code of criminal procedure
Hello, Mathglot. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:French code of criminal procedure, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again&#32;or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 09:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * db-g7. Mathglot (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Garde a vue
As I recall we've talked about this before, so I assume you have the term in the criminal law glossary, but -[6179528 this] popped up in my news feed and I thought you might be interested. Apparently it isn't just for terrorism suspects any more. Elinruby (talk) 03:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks; yes, of course, see Garde a vue. Mathglot (talk) 03:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Fundamental laws of the Kingdom of France


Hello, Mathglot. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Fundamental laws of the Kingdom of France".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 22:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I read the comment that you soon after deleted
Hello, I read the comment that you soon after deleted. I am banned from editing wikipedia articles in English for a month, not just from responding on the Romani people talk page. However, I'm not banned from editing articles in other languages, as long as they're not in English.

Good day. Ninhursag3 (talk) 22:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , yeah, sorry about that; I momentarily misinterpreted the block log. You are correct that your block (not WP:BAN) covers English Wikipedia articles, and the one Talk page, but it doesn't cover other Talk pages, and you are welcome to comment or make WP:Edit requests at the Talk page of other articles, if you notice an improvement that should be made there. And I don't believe you are blocked from Simple English Wikipedia either, so you could try at Simple. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 23:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The ban will end in 3 weeks, one week already passed. Thank you for the advice though. Ninhursag3 (talk) 23:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello there, @Mathglot, just found the result of the voting, it's weird that it should have lasted only 1 week but it lasted 11 days and the last votes were only "oppose", as if they waited for a few more "oppose votes". I will try to Assume good faith though. Do you think it's possible to try again after a few months? Also you crossed out "strong" and only left "oppose". So maybe in time I can change your mind for a future vote? Sorry for taking your time. Have a good day! Ninhursag3 (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment
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It appears my talkpage contributions are about to be limited...
... according to early !voting here. –  . Raven  .talk 00:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * .Raven, I'm sorry to hear about this. I haven't read the ANI yet, but often in these situations the best thing is to not become defensive, answer any questions with equanimity, avoid getting annoyed or argumentative or pushing back, and if it comes to it, accept sanctions humbly, with a resolve to do better in the future. Demonstrating an understanding of what it is that other editors are complaining about (especially admins, if they have commented) is key, because if they don't think you understand what the problem is, they'll be unlikely to believe that you can modify your behavior going forward. I'm saying all of this without a clue if you've done something sanctionable or not, but if so, just ride it out, respond calmly at ANI, resolve to do better in the future, and show your willingness to play by the rules.  That will get you out of trouble. Hope this helps, Mathglot (talk) 00:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There's the odd thing: I totted up my daily comment-count to the two discussions at issue since the P-BAN's end, divided (as one person there suggested) between replies to comments directed at me, vs. other comments/replies: low numbers. The only reply to that was another complaint to the effect that I'm too argumentative. (Obviously I didn't reply to that.) –  . Raven  .talk 00:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment
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Disruptive editing
I believe you are acting in a disruptive way by trying to push your own idea about the actuaria-related terminology. The main problem is you don't appear to read any of the sources provided to you, either in the article or on the talkpage. Rather, you constantly add new sources and interpret them as you see fit, even when it's obvious that they don't agree with you. You also seem to simply ignore already-provided arguments, in other words WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

I have requested a third opinion. Peter Isotalo 00:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment. I am not editing disruptively, as any disinterested party will see when reading Talk:Actuaria. I'm only trying to improve the article, and determine what it should be called. I have already pointed out more than once where I agree with your points; however when I disagree with you, it has nothing to do with you, and only with content and the way I interpret policy and guidelines with respect to the sources. As I am editing strictly to improve the article, and in accordance with WP:TALK and other policies, I don't plan to make any changes to the way I am approaching the discussion at Talk:Actuaria. If you don't agree with that, and still think I am editing disruptively, I suggest you raise your complaint at WP:ANI.
 * On the other hand, the same cannot be said for your behavior at the article. I've rarely seen anyone rename an article twice within a few hours, when there is ongoing opposition on the Talk page about the title of the article. Your title-warring, in violation of article title policy and of WP:CONSENSUS, actually is disruptive. My attempts to point this out to you on your Talk page (here) have apparently fallen on deaf ears. In principle, we are both trying to get to the same goal: what is best for the article, and what it should be called, and in so doing, I'd worry about your own adherence to guidelines if I were you, and not cast aspersions that are utterly without merit, just because I happen to disagree with you on content. Your linking WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is especially hilarious, given that when I added sources to the article to support what I was saying, they were removed by you as "unreliable", and when I asked about that on the article Talk page, you didn't respond. When I added a third source with details (Günther-2007; here), you didn't respond to that, either. Pot calling the kettle black! The "disruption" you see, appears to be defined as, "whenever I am in content disagreement with you"; but that's not how it works, here.
 * Probably the one thing we agree on, is that of seeking a third opinion. Beyond that, you seem to be passionate about this topic, and I really am not. I'm only there in passing, and I don't have a lot more time to devote to it, nor do I really care how it comes out (other than I'd like to see it match what policies call for). But if other editors don't show up and call out your untoward behavior with respect to your (two) unilateral page moves in the face of opposition on the talk page, you may just end up getting your way anyway; this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. If there are cogent, third-party comments that say something new at the Talk page I probably will respond; otherwise, I probably won't. Best of luck, Mathglot (talk) 00:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The definition of the article as of 4 July 2023 was based primarily on selective reading of sources and a mislabeled photo. Both Luebeck and Viereck said something completely different than what was in the article.
 * When I came along and inserted sourced content you immediately reverted everything and plainly mislabel the content as "unsourced". You violated WP:V and ignored one procedural policy in favor of another one where you manufactured a controversy out of thin air. And you immediately gave me a condescending lecture about how you "had to undo" me.
 * You've gotten yourself stuck to a tarbaby here by expecting obsequiousness from me. In this particular case, you're just a small step removed from Randy in Boise in terms of intransigence. I hope you don't treat newcomers this way, because that's the kind of shit that scares people off. Peter Isotalo 13:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice derail. I don't expect anything more or less from you than anyone else here, which is to follow all guidelines and policies. Happy editing, Mathglot (talk) 16:58, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I stand by my comments regarding your approach to the article content at actuaria. I sincerely believe you need to be a lot more careful in your use of sources and I was genuinely frustrated. My experience from galley is that the topic is lacking in quality, easily-available coverage both on Wikipedia and off. Many of the best sources are difficult to access and quite often completely unobtainable online.
 * With that said, I think that Draft:Ships of the Roman Empire is a very good and constructive idea. If you're interested, I'd very much like to help out. Peter Isotalo 01:49, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course; you don't need to ask me first about the Draft as anyone is welcome to join in, but I appreciate the courtesy call nevertheless. By all means help out; I basically threw it together as scaffolding, hoping that someone would take it over and develop it into an article. Some of the stuff you will have probably already noted is just raw ideas, and would never pass muster in a live article, but that's one of the things I really like about Drafts, is you can just drop off notes or ideas like seedlings, and eventually they'll either sprout into something, or get culled. Maybe I'll pop in from time to time if I think of something, but basically it's all yours (and anybody else's) if you want it. I hope someone does do something with it, because I won't have too much time for it and it sure feels like a "gap topic" to me; I love discovering them and filling the gap. Even with 6.7M articles here, there are still important topics that aren't covered; I recall my astonishment when I discovered that we didn't have an article on the Liberation of France, so of course, I created a draft for it. It just had its 3rd birthday, and has matured into a nice article. You're more than welcome at the Draft; I look forward to watching it grow into a nice article, too. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Per your request here I'm commenting on your behavior.
 * Of course; you don't need to ask me first about the Draft as anyone is welcome to join in, but I appreciate the courtesy call nevertheless. By all means help out; I basically threw it together as scaffolding, hoping that someone would take it over and develop it into an article. Some of the stuff you will have probably already noted is just raw ideas, and would never pass muster in a live article, but that's one of the things I really like about Drafts, is you can just drop off notes or ideas like seedlings, and eventually they'll either sprout into something, or get culled. Maybe I'll pop in from time to time if I think of something, but basically it's all yours (and anybody else's) if you want it. I hope someone does do something with it, because I won't have too much time for it and it sure feels like a "gap topic" to me; I love discovering them and filling the gap. Even with 6.7M articles here, there are still important topics that aren't covered; I recall my astonishment when I discovered that we didn't have an article on the Liberation of France, so of course, I created a draft for it. It just had its 3rd birthday, and has matured into a nice article. You're more than welcome at the Draft; I look forward to watching it grow into a nice article, too. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Per your request here I'm commenting on your behavior.


 * Your contributions are full of obvious and easily spotted factual errors. Like how on earth could you mistake this for an ancient Roman ship? Are you seriously not capable of telling the difference between an ancient transport ship and a three-masted 17th century sailing ship with clearly visible gunports? Peter Isotalo 00:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting that. A lot of that information was copied from other sources, such as de:s:Orbis sensualium pictus/LXXXIX. Navis oneraria – Das Lastschiff, which labels it as navis oneraria; should've known better than to trust Wikisource. Removed now. Anything else like that you spotted? Mathglot (talk) 00:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * My question was not rhetorical. You actively looked for an image of a ship type and added it, but you didn't notice that the source had nothing to do with the topic you're writing about and you mistook a 17th galleon armed with cannon for an ancient Roman cargo ship. You cited a second source (Friedman 2004) for the same type of vessel that discusses what they ought to look like including contemporary ancient depictions.


 * How did you manage to not spot such an extremely obvious error? Peter Isotalo 07:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What does it matter? It's been fixed already, very quickly after you pointed it out. Who cares about finding out how some past error occurred? If you want to improve the article, this is a wiki; just improve it. You don't need to come here and kvetch about every problem you find; just fix it. Mathglot (talk) 08:24, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * You have expressed strong opinions about how ancient ships should be covered on Wikipedia and responded quite aggressively towards me when I started engaging with actuaria. You have argued persistently about how highly technical Latin nautical terms should be interpreted, sometimes even in article space. I've pointed out errors in your approach, both procedural and factual. I don't think you're in a position to invoke WP:SOFIXIT in this case.


 * This isn't your first really obvious mistake. In this case, you actively sought out an image from a source that our own article describes as "a textbook for children". The image looked absolutely nothing like the images in a source you cited. You mistook what is obviously a galleon with a Roman transport vessel. If you were completely new to Wikipedia, I'd be much more understanding, but you're a veteran with almost 70k edit under your belt. And you've engaged in this topic before.
 * Do you not see a problem in combining a very bold and highly argumentative approach with an apparent lack of basic contextual knowledge? If you can't immediately identify a galleon as a 17th century ship, is it really appropriate for your to throw your weight around the way you have so far? Peter Isotalo 10:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Your claims are utterly without merit. By "responding quite aggressively", you mean the comment of mine on your Talk page that starts out, "thanks for all your contributions to improve articles about ships and related topics" and ends up with "Thanks again for all you do in improving the encyclopedia!" (diff)&mdash; that&apos;s the one you refer to as ""? What a laugh!
 * In the meat of that comment, I pointed out to you that you cannot simply unilaterally rename an article twice to your preferred choice of title, in the face of ongoing opposition on the Talk page. I get it that you didn't like that, but it wasn't personal, it's policy, and it needed to be said. Calling that comment of mine "aggressive" is absurd and no reasonable person reading it would come to the same conclusion that you did. The other three links of yours above are two perfectly fine examples of talk page discussion, and one perfectly fine example of addition of new content to an article, all very much in line with what we do here in building the encyclopedia, so it's bizarre that you link them as problematic.
 * I've responded several times to you now, but I'm sorry, I'm not required to satisfy you with a response to your continual complaints about nothing, and now I've said all I'm going to say about this subject. If you still believe there is some serious behavioral issue on my part that needs discussion, your next option is raise a discussion at WP:ANI. As a friendly tip in parting, I suggest you read WP:BOOMERANG first before you do, because at that point your own behavior will come under increased scrutiny. Otherwise, please just go in peace, and build the encyclopedia instead; that's why we're here. Mathglot (talk) 18:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You ducked the core issue here: you thought that a 17th century pic of a galleon was a Roman ship from around the 3rd century. Before that, you edited actuaria without noticing it was a trade ship, or that the photo that illustrated it had no source attestation. The article you rushed into mainspace, despite being offered assistance from me, is a confusing coatrack. It's okay to make basic mistakes, and it's okay to engage passionately in highly technical discussions. But you can't do both those things within the same field and expect to be taken seriously.
 * For this particular topic, you show signs of lacking competence. Reconsider your approach. Peter Isotalo 20:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I tire of your endless carping, and see no need to respond to you anymore. Find another pastime. Mathglot (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback requests from the Feedback Request Service
Your feedback is requested &#32;at Talk:Angela Lansbury and &#32; Template talk:Marvel Cinematic Universe on "All RFCs" request for comments. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of Feedback Request Service subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by removing your name. Message delivered to you with love by Yapperbot :) &#124; Is this wrong? Contact my bot operator. &#124; Sent at 20:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Notification
Hey, I saw you listing Talk:Political opening of Brazil to WP:BRAZIL and I was wondering how you do that? Is there a template that you used? I'm asking so I'll be able to do it myself on other requested moves. Thanks in advance! : 3 F4U (they/it) 07:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Yes, it's a template. I was really happy to see your question; please allow me to explain. The timing of your question is really, really good: I wanted to list the requested move at WT:BRAZIL yesterday, but then I discovered that the template that used to be used for it, RM notice, had recently (June) been merged with another, similar template, that was aimed at users instead of WikiProjects. This left us with no way to notify WikiProjects via a template anymore. The easy out would've been just to do it manually, but as I dabble in template writing from time to time, I decided to have a go at it.
 * In the end, I spent a day or more fixing the template, and now it can handle both user-oriented, and WikiProject-oriented notifications. In fact, the example you found at WT:BRAZIL is the very first one that uses the new version of the template, and I'm pretty sure that you were the very first one to notice! (This is very gratifying to me personally; because sometimes one wonders whether template updates are worth anything to anybody, so this was very validating.)
 * Anyway, long story short: you can now use Template:RM notice to notify editors, or to notify WikiProjects. This version is brand new, so I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at the (updated) documentation for it (here) and if there is anything that isn't clear, you can either comment on the Template talk page, or if you feel like, just go ahead and update the documentation directly yourself, which is at Template:RM notice/doc. If you notice any bugs, or if you have suggestions on how to improve the wording of the template, please don't hesitate to add a comment to Template talk:RM notice. Thanks so much for this comment; you made my day! Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 08:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this comprehensive explanation! I'll be sure to ask if I have any questions. Once I add the RM notice, how do I add the "listed" comment at the original move request? Or was that done manually? : 3 F4U (they/it) 17:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Freedom4U, That part I did manually. I used to see more experienced editors doing that a long time ago (not sure how they did it then) and I just copied that style, and still do. I use the wikicode editor, and type:
 * I'm much less familiar with the Visual Editor, but I'm sure you can style a statement like that as well, and I think it's probably pretty easy. It would be possible to create a template for it, if you think it would help. Mathglot (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm much less familiar with the Visual Editor, but I'm sure you can style a statement like that as well, and I think it's probably pretty easy. It would be possible to create a template for it, if you think it would help. Mathglot (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Society, sports, and culture request for comment
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 * Mathglot (talk) 07:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment
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 * ✅ proc close. Mathglot (talk) 23:37, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Request for a third opinion
Third opinion

Since it's just the two of us going back and forth, this may be more helpful. Warrenmck (talk) 02:16, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it. Mathglot (talk) 02:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * At the end of the day, we're both trying to improve the article and I don't actually think either of us is trying to push a POV, we just have a content dispute. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Warrenmck (talk) 02:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Warrenmck, I saee that someone responded for the 3O, but then they got almost immediately blocked as a sock, and your request was aged off of 3O here. Do you want to try again, or what's next? Mathglot (talk) 09:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot Not really sure, not going to lie that that third opinion we got didn't fill me with confidence that we'll ever be able to overcome the issue of fringe-presented-credibly, with "Ruhlen's group" presented as a credible source (though I do appreciate the perspective!) and since you and are still have a standing disagreement I just felt it best to leave as is and hope someone else weighs in. I do think that perhaps changing the section header to "Continuing Fringe Research" or something which makes it clear that it's not viewed as a legitimate avenue of research, which does seem to be confusing lay people. Warrenmck (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Lusatian Serbs in the early Middle Ages
Hey!

New topic (just so we are not mixing with the others) :)

So, I want to start article on Lusatian Serbs (or Sorbs) in the early Middle Ages however, I see that on this article, there is a part that talks about this time particularly with the main article that has nothing to do with what I am about to write which is connected to this article.

Now, I need some assistance in regards to how to sort this and which way will be proper way of linking these historic articles.

Maybe @Sadko can help as well.

Боки  ✉  23:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, the two topics are very much connected but not the same. I suggest that you ask sr.wiki admin. historian Marko Stanojević for more info. and literature. —  Sadko  (words are wind)  23:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Боки, I am looking into this now. In the meantime, please don't translate anything; I'll get back to you. What you can be doing in the meantime, is to think about how you would organize an article about your topic. By that I mean, design just the section headers of a proposed article, including top-level and next-level section headers, like perhaps ,   ,   ,  ,    and so on at the top level; with no text, *just* the headers. In each H2 (top-level) section, start to break it down with some H3 subsection headers; this will define your thinking about how to organize the article. Check if there are any WP:TERTIARY sources that cover this topic, like Encyclopedia Britannica, or whatever the major Serbian encyclopedia is (see this list); if you find a good article on the topic, you can imitate their section organization if it seems like a good one, or you can get an idea how subtopics might be arranged in your draft, just based on how much space the encyclopedia devotes to each subtopic, even if they don't use subheaders at all. I will get back to you later today, but I advise you not to translate anything just yet (especially not the lead). Please add your proposed section organization to your sandbox.
 * Before we go even that far, though, we need to be very clear on what the *topic* is that you wish to write about; especially as Sadko mentioned something about the two concepts you named above not being identical, and this is important to resolve at the very beginning. The topic of an article is defined by the title of the article, which defines the scope, and what subtopics are includable as part of your new article, and what are not and must be excluded. So, can you please reply below with the proposed English title of the topic you wish to write about? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot On Serbian Wikipedia there are few different, well-written, articles about Sorbs and history behind them. One of those articles refers specifically to the period in the middle ages. This article does not exist in English so what I was thinking was when and if draft gets approved to switch that paragraph in "bigger" article where I can just link the "main article" to the one I am thinking of writing about Sorbs in the middle age.
 * I hope that clears it up.
 * Боки  ✉  11:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Partly. There is something called WP:Summary style which you can read about, which will help connect the articles later, after they are written. But for starters, a title is needed. When you refer to "This article (does not exist in English)"&mdash;we need the title of that non-existent article before proceeding, in order to establish the topic. Can you please name the exact title that you wish to write about? Is it the same as the section heading of this discussion? Mathglot (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot Title of the article would be Sorbs in the early Middle Ages
 * Боки  ✉  22:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Боки, Thanks, that gives us a starting point. As you will probably get better feedback about this question elsewhere, I've replied to you at the WikiProject. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Nebojša Glogovac
Hi,

Another question (sorry to bother you but we seem to have a really good "help sections" on here so I figured I will ask you)

So, I've been working on expanding English version of (yet another) acting legend that has passed away, Nebojša Glogovac. I have been working on it whenever I have a chance basically translating Serbian article (that has been voted as featured article) and I have received some feedback back in October 2022 but I have never received clear response on my questions after initially I was advised what I need to do.

Can you, please, look into this article (and talk page) whenever you have a chance and let me know if this was just one of those "cops that caught me passing through red light" examples that you and I talked earlier or is this something that I need to fix for real?

I am thinking of finishing this article and see if English community is going to vote it as good article since it is pretty good in Serbian with lots of references and lots of info about Nebojša Glogovac.

Thanks(again) for your assistance.

Боки  ✉  17:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Investigating judge (France)
Hi, in Investigating judge (France) you use multiple instances of however nowhere do you define the source. This places the article into Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors. If you could fix this that would be great. There is guidance at Category:Harv and Sfn template errors. DuncanHill (talk) 09:44, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks for the tip! Mathglot (talk) 07:49, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 13:50, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

For your enjoyment
User:Elinruby/sandbox contains two of many section of a translated article on the black market in France in World War II. Amazingly, the original has a LOT of references, although because of the intricate way they are set up I will need to either move them one by one or translate the entire article. Which I am not against, but will take time. Elinruby (talk) 16:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything that looks like a translated section, just a bunch of individual notes-to-self you left about various things. Do you have another sandbox someplace? Mathglot (talk) 16:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, you meant this, I think: User:Elinruby/italy, right? Mathglot (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * yes sorry Elinruby (talk) 18:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Mais qui?
The page was tagged for copyediting and no one had touched it since last month, so I've been copyediting it. I edit-conflicted with you in the middle of the "Spread" section; I replaced Antisemitism, but hope I didn't lose any of your other edits. I'll pause my copyedit if you want to continue working on it; please let me know when you're done. Thanks and all the best,  Mini  apolis  00:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Miniapolis, thanks for the message. Actually, when you went ahead through the edit conflict it wiped out some previous edits I had made that are quite tedious to put together, including adjusting all of the italic markup that used ticks but should have used the lang template, and replacing all of the Visual Editor numeric ref names with standard ref names. So, I had no choice but to undo your edits. When you get an edit conflict like that, you have a few choices, including just backing out and redoing it from scratch if it's simple, or following the procedure described at Help:Edit conflict if it's not. One way to avoid these in the first place, is to do a series of smaller edits, section by section, instead of everything at once. Another is to place an In use template at the top of the article, which advises other users not to edit it (although it's a request and not an outright prohibition, but it may help). Sorry this happened, and thanks for the heads-up above, and for your work on the article. Mathglot (talk) 01:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. I do edit section-by-section to minimize edit conflicts, but this section is long. Are you going to continue working on the page? All the best,  Mini  apolis  02:09, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Miniapolis I'll hold off for a while, but if you're not familiar with ec resolution, you need to read up a bit. Meanwhile maybe using the in use template would be a good idea; if I see it there, I won't edit. The way to use it, is to add the template quickly and save right away, without doing anything else on the page, then go back in and do the edit you wanted to do in the first place, or series of edits. Don't forget to remove the template with your last edit, or right after the last one. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 02:58, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks; in my (considerable) experience, edit-conflict resolution isn't easy. I'll use In use when I'm editing, and will let you know when I'm done with the page.  Mini  apolis  11:58, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And I'm done.  Mini  apolis  13:52, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * great, thanks! And a special thanks for reinstating the mnemonic ref names with RefRenamer, after someone came in right after me and undid everything I had done, including the ref names, but also the lang template for marking French text. Ironically, I'm now in the exact same situation you were in before, because there's no way to undo their edit because of your later improvements to the article, so I'll have to go in and restore that edit the long way again, just like you had to. Sigh... Anyway, nice to "meet" you at the article, and feel free to call on me anytime, if you need to. If it helps any, I speak French, so if you have any tricky translation issues, I might be able to help. Thanks again, and happy editing! Mathglot (talk) 18:56, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Note to self, with links for context: finally finished the tedious, manual recovery of the stuff blown away in Mais qui? by user Edwardx in this edit. See the not very satisfying interchange at this discussion on their talk page, where they seemed too busy to really respond in more than fairly simple and uninformative one-liners, without really responding to the substance. Mathglot (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

A pup for you!
Cute Lil' Puppy For You! Odin&#38;Sleipnir (talk) 15:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It definitely brightened my day. Thank you! Mathglot (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! Odin&#38;Sleipnir (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Long-deserved many times over

 * Thanks you! Mathglot (talk) 21:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

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Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses
Given your username I thought you might find certain numbers interesting like I do – you were the 1,000th person to edit that page. If you don't care, fair enough, I just figured I'd let you know in case you do. Clovermoss 🍀 (talk) 00:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , Thanks for your message. Not so much, because it's kind of random, and connected to the fact that we have ten fingers. But here's an article you might find interesting: On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences; website link at the bottom. You can kind of get lost browsing around over there, and waste way more time on stuff you hadn't planned to look at, just as you can at Wikipedia. Don't say I didn't warn you, and have fun! Mathglot (talk) 01:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * But you did remind me of the famous story of the interaction between G. H. Hardy and Ramanujan about Hardy's taxi, don't you? Mathglot (talk) 01:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd never heard of that story before, it was an interesting read. What different humans find interesting is always intriguing. I don't normally care about the number 1,000 but when it comes to talk pages you don't usually see one that has that many unique editors. So I thought it was an interesting milestone. As for the more complicated math stuff, I wish I understood it better, but my abilities are limited to what I remember from my high school math classes. I remember being really happy that I did well on an advanced functions test using the Tetris theme to memorize something about irrational numbers. I appreciate you showing me a new rabbit hole to get into, though. :) Something else I find interesting are words/phrases/numbers that are palindromes. I was born in 2002, which is a palindromic number. I think that's cool. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 15:52, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you ever heard of Time Between Edits? A lot of people haven't but they usually say it's interesting when I mention it to them. You could say it's also connected to the fact we have 10 fingers. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 21:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you...
... for correcting my mistake at Template:Uw-coi. 👍 JBW (talk) 09:43, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , you're more than welcome. I do understand, I think, what motivated it, as the current name is not very satisfactory, and is probably confusing to newbies. What did you think about my edit summary idea of adding a redirect (or even moving it) to Template:Request edit coi, or similar? That probably would be a better name. Mathglot (talk) 02:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The first time I made the change, the one page was just a redirect to the other, so it made no difference to where the link led to, only to the text displayed for the link. When I repeated the change I didn't know that the template "request edit", which had existed at that title for almost 17 years, had a few weeks ago been moved and its content replaced by something completely different; I assumed I was still dealing with the same redirect. I am highly dubious about the practice of making such significant changes to such prominent and widely used templates on the basis of a discussion among half a dozen editors on a talk page, without calling attention to it somewhere where it will be more widely seen. I certainly do think your suggested title would be better than the present one. JBW (talk) 14:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Interconnected templates


A tag has been placed on Category:Interconnected templates indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗ plicit  11:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed. Mathglot (talk) 23:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

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Concern regarding Draft:Interpolated comment/doc
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Cite AV media
I saw what you did, but does that work with named references? In any event, I will check out how to do this... The timestamps are correct and from today; is the best thing to do just to repeat the citation with the appropriate timestamp? Elinruby (talk) 04:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , Yes. If you're referring to the Lafont documentary, what I would do if you have multiples, is use sfn with param loc, and then tie them all to the full citation in the section. So, let's say you had one ref at 20:50, and one at 1:30, then I'd do it like this:


 * He was born.. Much later, he was executed.

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 * ✅. Mathglot (talk) 19:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

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 * Mathglot (talk) 20:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

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 * Rfc hdr removed. Mathglot (talk) 20:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Your comment at Trump
This is problematic in two ways. First, that thread was never an RfC. Perhaps you meant to comment in the Carroll thread. And your comment will cause the thread to be retained quite a bit longer that it would be otherwise. Suggest you remove. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  20:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry; thanks for the tip. Once the header gets removed, the link doesn't work anymore, and it's hard to figure out where it was. I'll fix that up right away. Mathglot (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Edward Forman
Hi! I was sad to add the UPE tag to Edward Forman, but it came from an Upwork job that was very clearly to edit that article. I was actually a bit upset to see it, given the work that people like you did to help with the article and how it was quite negative about that help. But the only editor involed was Sabih omar - it had nothing to do with your work on the article, which not only involved good edits, but was very supportive of a new editor. - Bilby (talk) 12:36, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Requesting help with Edward Forman
Hi Mathglot, me and Lynn both appreciate your work on the article. Lynn had a draft created, but she misunderstood the process of creating a Wikipedia article and was confused as to how to communicate that to you. When she asked for my help in Upwork, I agreed to modify her draft to make it suitable for Wikipedia. But I also misunderstood the etiquette, rules and consequences of paid edit in Wikipedia and just started replacing the article with my version. Now that we have full disclosure, I have started adding suggestions to improve/enhance the article in the talk page. Since you invested a lot of time and effort on this article, it would be only appropriate that you review my suggestions and update the article as you see fit. I would appreciate that a lot. Sabih omar 07:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sabih, Thank you for your message. This is a kind overture on your part, and speaks well of your attempt to play by the rules as much as possible while engaging in paid editing at Edward Forman for Lynn. While I haven't examined your edits in detail at that article, I have browsed them, and at first glance I see no problems with your editing that would require my, or anyone's attention so far. They all seem to have improved the article, afaict. I will certainly have a look at the talk page, and try to help as best I can when I get a chance.
 * That said, nobody WP:OWNs an article—and that includes me—and so I'm not a "gatekeeper" that has to approve your edits, although I'm happy to check or review anything upon request, if I have the time. Right now, I don't have a ton of time, and I hope to get to it eventually, but in the meantime, I would recommend you place a brief message at a few related WikiProjects asking for reviewers. (There are four listed on the talk page; you could pick some or all of those.) You could add a section on the project Talk page(s) called something like, "Feedback requested at Edward Forman", then in a sentence or two, just say that you're a paid editor having updated that article, and that in the spirt of openness and collaboration, that you'd like any interested editors to review your edits and offer TP feedback, and/or to update the article as they saw fit. And you're welcome to link this discussion as well, if you think that will help. Best of luck, and please keep me informed how it's going. Please ping me in around a month, if you haven't heard anything from me before that. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 08:10, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Umm, spurious?
Re: this edit, what spurious script warnings are you seeing at Special:ExpandTemplates?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:51, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Trappist. I'm seeing the following sfn "no target" errors in, and only in, Special:ExpandTemplates:

Tomlinson 1999, p. 89. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999 (help) Tomlinson 1999a, p. 1. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999a (help) Tomlinson 1999b, p. 1. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999b (help) Tomlinson 1999c, p. 89. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999c (help) Tomlinson 1999d, p. 161. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999d (help) Tomlinson 1999e, p. 197. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999e (help) Tomlinson 1999f, p. 269. sfn error: no target: CITEREFTomlinson1999f (help)


 * You can reproduce this by pasting the content of User:Mathglot/sandbox/citec into Special:ExpandTemplates. If the script is enabled, you should see the seven errors above. If you paste the same code into your sandbox, or any other non-Special page, you won't see any errors. (I tested in main, Talk, User talk, Template, and Wikipedia spaces, and no errors were generated in any of them. Afaict, the errors show up *only* in Special:ExpandTemplates.)
 * If the wikitext variable you mentioned in your explanation (diff) is 'nil' when used with Special:ExpandTemplates and that is responsible for the errors being visualized, then a nice enhancement to the script might be to detect the 'nil' condition, realize that something is awry because you can't have an article with no text, and then just refuse to issue any warnings or errors in that circumstance. (Even better, would be to dump one, big, bold, red, message: "") Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ping ; not sure if you're subscribed. Mathglot (talk) 20:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Or, are those coming direct from Module:Footnotes, and not the script? In that case, maybe it's the Module that needs to do an additional check for that variable. Mathglot (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The error messages related to User:Trappist_the_monk/HarvErrors.js are dark orange; warnings are some-sort-of brown; duplicate errors messages are some-sort-of purple.  Error messages from Module:Footnotes are the en.wiki standard error message color.  I pasted your sandbox into Special:ExpandTemplates.  The messages that I see are not from User:Trappist_the_monk/HarvErrors.js but are from Module:Footnotes.  Are you seeing dark orange / some-sort-of brown / some-sort-of purple messages in the Special:ExpandTemplates rendering?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Trappist. No; just red; looks like they are straight out of Module:Footnotes. It seems clear now, that the locus of the problem is there, and not the script. Someone interested in that module should fix that. I'll elevate the one-sentence discussion I previously created there, into a Module Edit request. Thank you so much for your investigation into this, and your responses; it has been very illuminating. Mathglot (talk) 21:18, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've deleted the spurious script warnings issue from User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors as not-an-issue.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 21:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia proposals request for comment
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 * ✅. Mathglot (talk) 22:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

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number format template?
Does English have one and does Anomie convert to it from whatever the French uses? The French number template used to break, and I have been manually removing them, but our eye-opening conversation about references has made me wonder whether I mihgt not there too be fighting a fight that needs to be fought Elinruby (talk) 01:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

number format template?
Does English have one and does Anomie convert to it from whatever the French uses? The French number template used to break, and I have been manually removing them, but our eye-opening conversation about references has made me wonder whether I mihgt not there too be fighting a fight that doesn't need to be fought Elinruby (talk) 00:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Elin, I noticed it, too, and unfortunately our number template number does something completely different from theirs, so you can't just leave it in place. And AnomieBOT cannot convert it, because it doesn't know your intention: whether you meant the English one, French one (or some other language Wikipedia one). If you don't have an offline text editor that allows you to do global replace, you should really get one. Then, if you change all occurrences of French '' to ' ' (note the colon, and *not* vertical bar), and then it will do the right thing, namely to insert commas every three digits if you have North American preferences, and dots if you have European prefs (and inversely, for decimal point or comma). Mathglot (talk) 01:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer. As I mentioned before I am working on a variety of devices and that isn't always practical. Usually not as a rule, but that is another set of problems. I am reasonably content to do this manually; but if I was making life harder for myself than it had to be I was willing to discover that ;) Speaking of life being harder, the evacuation alert in my area has been lifted now. We still have heavy ground-level smoke until a wind comes along. But I can unpack my go bag now.


 * Actually though, come to think of it, I could manually make the replacement you describe, since I'd be right there doing manual stuff anyway. Shakescene drew my attention to a discussion about using thin spaces instead of commas, is what set off this train of thought. Just checking to see if there was a better way to do things. Elinruby (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Elin; I wouldn't; thinspace corresponds to neither side of the Atlantic, and would be non-standard. Most flexible is to just use the formatnum magic word. 02:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment
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Your InternetArchiveBot run appears to be stuck
Hai! InternetArchiveBot run #14571 (submitted by you) seems to be going very wonky - it says it's run through the single page in the batch job, but apparently hasn't realized that it needs to finish the job and release its bot worker for other use. Could you maybe try manually killing the job and see if that clears up the issue? Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 18:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)


 * , killed; thanks for the ping. What do I do now? As I recall, that was for only one page; do I need to do something and resubmit it? Or file a bug? Mathglot (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thx! You shouldn't need to resubmit it; the bug appears to be with the bot worker failing to release itself at the end of the job once it's already finished running through all the pages in the job. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 19:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like IAbot did what it was asked to, in this edit on 15 August, so I wonder why it was stuck? Mathglot (talk) 19:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No clue; the bot's maintainers've been trying to figure out the problem for months now. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 19:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

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Anomie: You know what would be cool?
I let it do its reference translation thing on something I have going in a sandbox where I am valiantly trying to master the grouped sfn stuff that seems to be in vogue on French wikipedia these days. It did indeed save me from manually fixing dozens of reference errors I had going on at the time, but I have suggestions in the french->english area for how to make it cooler:


 * I don't know what that "plume" parameter is (icon?) but afaik it corresponds to nothing on en-wikipedia: delete it.
 * auteur-> author is true and is what was doing myself for a long time until I realized that this was the reason I wasn't getting Harvard references to work. If it could somehow learn to split these into last1 and first1, etc... I realize this would require it to distinguish last names from first, and sometimes it would be wrong, but it would also sometimes be right, reducing the amount of tedious cruft-culling involved in translating this syntax, and what could possibly go wrong? Sure asking that question un-ironically is asking for trouble, but the occasional Grenard Fabrice is fixable.

Since I know you like links: User:Elinruby/National pastime: it's for the Maquis Lecoz redlink in the black market article, but bonus, is also itself a good article over there, plus a good case study for my project to reduce the oversimplification of World War II narratives. Possibly more than DUE for English, but there is a lot of that going on in my life right now. A couple of questions while we are here -- if you don't know the answers or can't easily find them, no worries, I can always try the help desk or dig/experiment some more.


 * Legend template: got that to work for boxes of color on the black market article, but for this one I need several lines of (textbox containing a number, text explaining what that number is on the map), with a reference thrown in to make life interesting. The reference doesn't seem to be a problem but getting text that is not in the text box to appear right after the textbox might be. I had just the textboxed number, then everything in the textbox... There was an outage last night just as I thought I had solved this, and I haven't looked in on its current state. Plan B would be to simply forget the textbox flourish, so this isn't real important.
 * I got this to something I consider at least somewhat satisfactory but if/when you look, if you have feedback on a better or more elegant way to do this, please do share. Elinruby (talk) 00:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The article has notes plus references (sometimes nested} and also a bibliography for the sfn -- is there a requirement that these sections be in a particular order? I had the sfn stuff working but now the ref groups are only appearing as lists of citation numbers. Which do work (for the most part so far), but this is not what I want. To ask this more technically: can an sfn in a reference group match itself up to its corresponding item in the Bibliography? Do they all need to be in the same section or can there be a notes section in addition to a reference section in addition to a grouped reference section? Maybe too many headers is the problem?

As always, for all you do, thank you. I keep finding your name reassuringly in the history of various French civil law article. Elinruby (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi,.
 * oui affixes the pen icon, and it's to distinguish between a general source and a "Further reading"-type source. Fr-wiki's verifiability and sourcing is much weaker than ours, and not only do they not insist on inline citations with page numbers and let you just dump the name of a book source in the "Bibliographie", they also don't generally support a "Further reading" section, so that sources that would go in "Further reading" in en-wiki, just get dumped into the "Bibliographie", along with all the sources they actually *did* use to write the article with. So, how do you tell which ones are actual sources that back the content (supposedly), and which ones are just random, other cool stuff to read for viwers? Voilà—the plume icon identifies the books that are sources. So, we don't have to keep them in our articles, but you can use them to push off all the books that *don't* have a plume to our "Further reading" section. For an example of this in use, see fr:Épave_de_Mahdia.
 * auteur ⟶ author: I have some regular expressions to split authors into last= first=, but I'm guessing you don't do regexes? I could probably assemble it into a template, which could process a citation, and output the split version. I have similar ones that reverse the order, so that they end up last first, and not the other way around. If you have a list of stuff like that, I can probably create a template for it.
 * Legend/text/ref – will have to look at this later; getting late here. Mathglot (talk) 07:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have done regex; it's not in my current repertoire but... late here too and I am trying to close a bunch of open tabs with half-finished work. As I recall one of the problems I had at the time was that there were multiple versions, but that's another story. Is there a WP page I could look at? (when you have time. The Legend issue is circumvented to my satisfaction but there was probably a better way to handle it and if so please do tell. I may have had a lightbulb moment on the notes vs references thing but I haven't implement it yet and it too is kind of a kludge. So no rush on these questions.
 * Thanks for the plume explanation -- that probably explains an error I didn't understand Elinruby (talk) 07:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , some of it is at User talk:Mathglot/Tips. Mathglot (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

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Did you ping me?
Hi. I'd swear I remember receiving a ping from you recently, and I'd thought it was at Wikipedia talk:Pages needing translation into English. I was about to reply belatedly just now but I can't find your message there and don't know where it is. Am I making this up or did you contact me? Largoplazo (talk) 12:25, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Largoplazo. My memory is swiss cheese, but I'll look around to see if I did. The most I can say for sure, is that I've been looking at the duflu/needtrans merge, and I only remember that because it was today. Otoh, if you did get a ping, it should still be there in your notifs; try clicking the 🔔 icon at the top (after your username) and if I did, it should be in the dropdown. Mathglot (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you considered the possibility that you are clairvoyant, and you got the ping from this edit before I made it? Mathglot (talk) 19:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

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Message
Mathglot, please for the love of god, leave me alone! I do not have to source everything! Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 13:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you do, if it's an assertion of fact you added. I'll follow up at your Talk page, like it or not. Mathglot (talk) 18:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, Jesus. Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Need for reassurance
May you please check my recent edits? I added in sources just like you told me to. I want to make sure I'm doing this right. Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I absolutely will, but I'm out of time. Will try to get to it later today, if possible. Mathglot (talk) 19:57, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixing broken ping: User:Autisticeditor 20. — Mathglot (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

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One last thing
Can you please let me know when you've seen my new edits and sources I've placed? Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Autisticeditor 20 I will; I'm just busy with some stuff I've been putting off for a while, and I need to catch up, because the books are library books that will come due. Is it okay if I get back to you in a few days? If you can't wait that long, let me know, and I'll make it sooner. Mathglot (talk) 23:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fine take your time. Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello
Mathglot, thank you so much for your advice yesterday and respecting my feelings. I'm sorry if I was in any way harsh to you in my replies. Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to help, and no worries—I have a thick skin, and I understand the frustrations you've been feeling in reaction to some of the posts on your Talk page. Just carry on with sourcing your edits (I've seen them, just haven't had time to respond to them) and you should be fine. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 23:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I really hope I sourced everything right. I tried to find the most reliable sources on Google Books. Have you checked any of them yet? Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 19:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Autisticeditor 20, Not yet; I'm very backed up. I can see from History that you've done a whole bunch of sourcing, and you must have also noticed my request on your UTP to add page numbers to citations where feasible, because I see a bunch of page numbers being added, too, and that really helps WP:Verifiability, so thanks very much for that. From 40,000 feet, it looks like a big improvement recently and that you're on the right track, but I haven't checked them in detail.
 * If you need more detailed feedback about your recent sourcing sooner than I'm able to get to it, you could ask any trusted editor for help, or ask at the Help desk. I'm not sure who might have time right now and would be willing to get involved checking your most recent sourcing, but I'll try and if they don't have time, maybe they could suggest someone (or I'll try again). In the meantime, no news is good news, so if no one is complaining on your Talk page, probably all is well. But I'll either find someone to help check your most recent edits for sourcing and verifiability, or I'll get to it myself eventually. Thanks for checking in again with me about this; I know you want to do the right thing, and I know it hasn't been easy, lately, but I definitely see the progress, so carry on! Mathglot (talk) 20:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

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 * ✅. Mathglot (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Jurisdictional dualism in France


Hello, Mathglot. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Jurisdictional dualism in France".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. ✗ plicit  14:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Undeleted, here. Mathglot (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This draft is now being used to source content at Jurisdictional dualism in France, after which it can be deleted again. Mathglot (talk) 09:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Cheese
Hello Mathglot. May i suggest you revisit your reversion. You say Undid revision 1176837055 by LindsayH (talk) Unexplained removal of sourced content, but i removed no information merely, as my summary clearly stated, moved some to a better location in the article. We now have, again, an article with two sentences about the variety of cheeses in the middle of a section about its history instead of in the section about the variety of cheeses. Please undo your edit, thanks. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 09:05, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. On second look, you are correct. The Diff program results are sometimes hard to interpret. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 09:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha! Came here to quote your summary and agree, they can be difficult sometimes.  Thanks for reverting :) Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 09:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

thanks
Thank you for your feedback on my question about the use of 'Semantic Web Tags' in Wikipedia articles. Yes, I will be stripping them all out and going exclusively with 'Wiki tags'. Th74 (talk) 23:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Th74, (referring to this) You're welcome! Mathglot (talk) 00:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Hulk576 comments
Based on your comments at Hulk576's Talk page, I decided to take a look at the Jehovah's Witnesses article on the Simple English Wikipedia. Somewhat neglected, the article had fallen victim to a fairly non-neutral treatment. I've attempted a copyedit of that article. I suspect a backlash. Are there different admins on the other Wiki if necessary?-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Jeffro77, Simple: is a completely different environment, with its own rules, and its own set of (active) users and admins. Since a global userid project was completed a few years ago, if you have an account on any wikimedia project, you now have an account (with the same password) on all of them, even if you've never used another one. It's possible that there's an overlap in user activity, and that some admins seen a lot here are active there as well, but that's entirely up to them, and indeed, to any user to decide what project(s) they wish to contribute to. As you get started over there, if you have any questions, probably the first port of call is simple:Wikipedia:Simple talk. Admins hang out at simple:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, and simple:Template:Helpme works the same way over there as here, so you can ask a question on your own Talk page (or anywhere), add the Helpme template to your message, and someone will drop by to answer your question at whatever venue you asked it. Thanks for volunteering over there, and good luck! Mathglot (talk) 09:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Your protégé
I think it's great that you are taking the time to coach them. Thanks -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated. Mathglot (talk) 09:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure if we are talking about User talk:Hulk576 here. If we are, I'm truly impressed with the detailed and helpful suggestions you left that user. That must have taken you quite some time to write up and really should prove valuable. Nicely done. --Yamla (talk) 10:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Glossary of French criminal law and reflib
Hi Mathglot. There a bug with reflib in Glossary of French criminal law, and I can't work out what's wrong. If you look in the Works cited section one of the entries is "Template:Reflib/French criminal law". It comes between "Elliott, Catherine (2001)" and "Garé, Thierry; Ginestet, Catherine (September 2022)", so it's should be the output from "Elliott-Jeanpierre-Vernon-2006". I've checked Template:Reflib/French criminal law and the setup in the article and can't see anything wrong, but the cite won't display correctly. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 14:18, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Checking... Mathglot (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The only thing I see so far, is no in-link warning for Tomlinson-1999; will fix that later. The page doesn't appear to be in Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors, and I don't see visible warnings from Trappist's script on the page, so I wonder what you're seeing? Also, you fixed one issue here (thanks for that!) but that was prior to your message here. Still checking.... Mathglot (talk) 18:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

ActivelyDisinterested, Okay, I found something: a duplicate sfn whitelist param (dropped here). That seems to be in the same area you pinpointed above; so did that fix it? The problem for me is, I don't know what symptom you noticed, so I can't tell if it's gone away now. Also, what the heck is a flaff? M-W thinks it's "a flutter" or "gust", but if so, I still don't get it in the context of the edit summary. Curious minds want to know... Mathglot (talk) 18:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Definitely still there for me, from your browser search the page for "Template:Reflib/French criminal law". Sorry I'm being colloquial, flaff could probably be described as "bothersome". If I didn't already know how reflib works, I doubt I would have been able to work out where to find "Dickson-Hübner-1994" or known how to set it up. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh! Didn't notice that before!! Wait a minute, I just saw it, and now I've refreshed the page and it's gone. What the heck was *that*?! I also refreshed *before* seeing it just now, so something very strange is going on. I think it must somehow be related to the duplicate item I removed, although why there should be a time lag mystifies me. Can you reload or purge the page, and see if it's gone for you, too? If if is, do you have a clue what's going on here? Mathglot (talk) 18:56, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Fix broken ping. ActivelyDisinterested. Mathglot (talk) 18:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Very strange I still see it, so I tried purging the page and no change. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI - I've subscribed to this thread, so you don't need to ping me as well. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, no; that's the worst kind of problem, when behavior is different per user. Might have to check if Wikipedia has a "safe mode", so it doesn't load my common.css or js, to see if there's some strange interference. Or, maybe I can try it logged out, but that'll have to wait, as I've gotta run. Thanks for all your efforts pointing this out and trying things; will get back to this. Mathglot (talk) 19:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * After messing about in a test page for awhile, I found that reflib doesn't like duplicating cites. So if you have "Elliott-Jeanpierre-Vernon-2006" twice, even in different instances of the template, it behaves in unexpected ways. And sure enough "Elliott-Jeanpierre-Vernon-2006" appeared in the B-C template as well as the E-L template, now fixed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm, that's interesting. A template, as a mini-program, can only do what it's told, and the template code is quite, simple, albeit repetitive. All it does is invoke Standard section transclusion repeatedly. I wonder if there's an issue with that, so my next avenue of research might be some simple tests invoking section transclusion twice, and see if I can reproduce the error with a minimal amount of code. If so, maybe there's a Phab ticket already for it, and if not, we can write one. Alternatively, if the locus of the problem is template code (though I don't see how) then it should be fixed.
 * One thing the template does not currently check for, is identical param values for two different params, ie., passing the same section name twice. That should be possible to fix in the template, although ironically, it's non-trivial, and I'd probably write a another template just to handle it. Of course, that would not have helped us here, where the same section name was passed in two separate invocations; that's essentially impossible to detect. In the meantime, I think some updates to the Reflib /doc page are warranted (maybe in "Technical issues") to warn about this case, regardless what the locus of the problem happens to be.
 * Thank you for your work in clearing these harv errors, and pausing on the tough ones to point them out, and going above and beyond in order to diagnose and even fix them. Much appreciated. Mathglot (talk) 01:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I logged out and it's still there for me, I thought to try and purge it while logged out but my IP address range is blocked. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

As a result of this discussion, I've made a change to Template:Reflib, which now detects duplicate parameters, and generates an error message instead of passing them through to the article. This will stop future problems in the case where a user inadvertently includes the same section name twice in one transclusion of the template. Of course, this wouldn't have stopped the case you discovered with two separate transclusions, but it's a start.

I've also upgraded the template doc to specifically address this issue; please have a look at the second paragraph at Reflib#Technical notes, and feel free to edit it if it needs further clarification. I haven't looked at reproducing the bug using duplicate section transclusion yet, and I may not get to it right away; the upgrades to the template should prevent most future problem cases, and the /doc upgrade should provide the user with an explanation of the more tricky, undetectable case, as well as the solution for it. This whole discussion and investigation has resulted in the template (and /doc) becoming more robust, and that's a win. Thanks once again. Mathglot (talk) 08:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Glad I could help. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 10:30, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"Wikipedia:ChatGPT" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:ChatGPT&redirect=no Wikipedia:ChatGPT] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. -  C HAMPION  (talk) (contributions) (logs) 10:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Invitation to Cornell study on Wikipedia discussions
Hello Mathglot,

I’m reaching out as part of a Cornell University academic study investigating the potential for user-facing tools to help improve discussion quality within Wikipedia discussion spaces (such as talk pages, noticeboards, etc.). We chose to reach out to you because you have been highly active on various discussion pages.

The study centers around a prototype tool, ConvoWizard, which is designed to warn Wikipedia editors when a discussion they are replying to is getting tense and at risk of derailing into personal attacks or incivility. More information about ConvoWizard and the study can be found at our research project page on meta-wiki.

If this sounds like it might be interesting to you, you can use this link to sign up and install ConvoWizard. Of course, if you are not interested, feel free to ignore this message.

If you have any questions or thoughts about the study, our team is happy to discuss! You may direct such comments to me or to my collaborator, Cristian_at_CornellNLP.

Thank you for your consideration.

-- Jonathan at CornellNLP (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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 * ✅ (opposed). Mathglot (talk) 22:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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Query
Hi Mathglot, a few years ago you suggested that instead of a redirect for 'gay lifestyle' and 'homosexual lifestyle', it might be preferable to create an article on this term. I was wondering about doing so as I have quite a few sources covering the topic. I'm not sure if you still agree, so wanted to consult you first.

You wrote I have no objection to its being expanded it into an article, but I'm not sure whether that would appear to be a content fork of "Homosexual agenda". One alternative would be to explain the evolution of the term "Homosexual lifestyle", and add that as a new section to the article "Homosexual agenda". The only solution that makes no sense to me, would be to leave it as it is, pointing to LGBT culture. "Homosexual lifestyle" is a pejorative term used by those opposed to LGBT rights; it should not redirect to LGBT culture. For how the term got that way from its humble beginnings as a neutral term used in academia and elsewhere, see #History of the term, below.

If you still think this is suitable, would it be better to draft name such as article 'gay lifestyle' or 'homosexual lifestyle'? Zenomonoz (talk) 03:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , Thanks for the link, and reminding me of that issue, which I had pretty much forgotten about, but it's coming back to me. Am thinking about this, and will get back to you. Mathglot (talk) 07:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , I apologize for the delay; I recall very clearly typing out a response a couple of days later, but evidently I must have gotten interrupted and never sent it. I only just noticed that now. A pity, because I think I went into a fair bit of detail, quoting and linking stuff, and now I don't remember exactly anymore, but I think I was mentioning something about having a terminology article, something like what we have at Transgender terminology (currently a redirect, but easily enough information for a stand-alone article). As I recall from glancing at the discussion you linked, the term homosexual lifestyle went through quite an evolution itself, and an alternative approach could be a new article on Evolution of LGBT terminology, with homosexual lifestyle occupying a section of it; I think that might be a more interesting, and comprehensive topic that likely will have more meat and more good sources you can use as references. I'm still trying to reconstruct the context and my thoughts about it, because I feel like I'm missing something important from my original (lost) response, but this is as much as I have for now. Sorry I can't do better at the moment. Mathglot (talk) 08:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Women's International Democratic Federation
In this version the link to Elisabeth G. Flynn was blue. After your attention, in this version, it was red. What are you playing at? Please don't trash my work / the article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It was inadvertent; please stand by while I fix it. Mathglot (talk) 01:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Blue again; sorry for the bother. Mathglot (talk) 01:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

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Ibrahim Aboubacar
Hello, Mathglot. I am reverting your reversion, not to quibble with you, but to go back and correct what needs to be corrected. I didn't understand your comment on the talk page but I'll try to figure out what's amiss. Thanks for pointing out that something needs help! Oona Wikiwalker (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:Oona Wikiwalker, thanks for posting here. Sure, no problem. And you did fix it, thanks for that. Unfortunately, that left the Talk page with duplicate translated page templates, so I removed the second template from the talk page again. There is no need to have two of them. Per the guideline, there is no need to have even one of them; they are strictly optional. What is required, per Wikipedia's licensing, is the translated content attribution in the edit summmary where translated content was published. That is a must, and cannot be omitted, but the translated page template is just a "nice-to-have", and if we do have it, just one of them, please. Mathglot (talk) 04:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I had no idea there were licensing requirements among wikis! Thank you so much for explaining this to me; I had not been doing that. I've been picking up pages marked for "cleanup after translation," but machine translation can get weird so I've just been translating them my head and then rechecking that against the AI version. Do I need to insert an attribution on pages marked for cleanup? Oona Wikiwalker (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oona, if I understood your last question, if you are fixing up English articles that contain some mangled French using your own English grammar chops without referring back to the French article, then it's just a "copy edit", and you don't need translation attribution in the edit summary. If you are translating from French Wikipedia, then you definitely need to include the attribution statement from WP:TFOLWP (the legal mumbo-jumbo is in sect. 7 of the Terms of use) in the edit summary. If you're fixing mangled French, and referring back to the French Wikipedia for clarification of certain points, then it's kind of a gray area; I would say, if you feel like you're "translating" it, then you should probably include translation attribution; if you feel like you're mostly just copyediting and could've done it without looking at the original, maybe you don't need it. If you've been translating from French Wikipedia (or copying text from one English article to another) and haven't been adding translation/copy attribution in the edit summary in the past, then you can, and must, add it retroactively. The instructions for this are at WP:RIA. Mathglot (talk) 08:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I did read the Terms of Service, and like every other "instructional" wall of text I read at Wikipedia, it explains without explaining. I do understand that this is because Wikimedia is an enormously complex project, but I still walk away without a reasonable grounding in what I was supposed to learn. I did understand that Wikidata and Wikimedia are different projects, but I thought all the -pedias not.
 * I'd been an anonymous, casual editor for a very long time. Recently I decided to give back more and registered an account that sat unused for a bit. When I came back to it, a Wikipedia bot offered me a tutorial: "Be bold!" it said. "Go forth and edit!" it said. Someone really needs to gently sit down and have a loving heart-to-heart with whoever thought that was a good idea. That tutorial is WOEFULLY inadequate. No matter how talented they are with building blocks, you cannot take a toddler out of preschool and send them to work restoring Nôtre Dame Cathedral.
 * Perhaps I'm still not making sense, but I know I'm taking up your time. I really appreciate your care so far. Thank you for that. Oona Wikiwalker (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oona, you are making sense, and, I understand what you mean; I ran into the same problem early in my wiki-career, and learning about copyright and Wikipedia's licensing requirements (and other things) is a gradual (and long) process. There's a noticeboard somewhere just for asking questions about copyright issues, and of course, there's an entire profession of copyright lawyers, so I don't beat myself up for not understanding it perfectly, and you shouldn't, either. I also ran into precisely the same issue as you described regarding the documentation at Wikipedia, namely, is something documented at all, and how do you know if it is or not, and where do you go to find it? Part of the reason for this, of course, is that Wikipedia is a volunteer project, and everybody gets to work on whatever they want, so there is no team "assigned" to making sure the documentation all makes sense, or is even consistent.
 * In fact, having clear doc and easy (or at least, "easier") access to it is a pet peeve for me, which is why I spend so much time trying to improve template and other documentation. If you run into a particular page that you think has unclear walls of text or other problems that need improvement, please go to the Talk page of that page, and start a discussion about it, and ping me from there, and I'll see what I can do to improve it. (Your Talk page "discussion" can just be one sentence or two, if you want, stating the difficulty you had understanding the page. Because all Talk pages are about improving the associated main page, please include at least one idea of how to improve the problem you raised—This page would be better if...—"just" complaining at a Talk page, without offering any suggestion how to mitigate the problem is seen as bad form, as Talk pages are supposed to be about discussing improvement to the page.)
 * Here's another idea for you: being that Wikipedia is a wiki that anyone can edit, if you find a confusing page of documentation, you can just WP:BEBOLD (ahem!) and edit it yourself to fix it the way you think it should be. Be prepared, of course, for someone to undo your edit if they think it's not an improvement, but you are totally within your rights to try to improve any page at Wikipedia by changing it. That is the Wiki way, and you're welcome to try.
 * Feel free to contact me anytime about issues you run into at Wikipedia. I guess you already know about the Help desk and WP:Tea house, and there's also the Help me template, which you can use to get answers on your own Talk page. Carry on, you're doing fine! Mathglot (talk) 19:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for your encouragement. You embody the Wikipedia ideal of kindness and civility, as do so many people I see in the Talk pages! (I give articles with Extended Protection a wide berth.) The part of Wikipedia I've been swimming in seems to be a community were people behave online at least as well as they would on a public sidewalk. This is a rarity that I enjoy very much. Is there a way to have a list of people you want to keep in mind without having to subscribe to their talk page? My phone nags me enough already, lol. Oona Wikiwalker (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Unicode chart translation request
Hello. I maintain multilingual Wikimedia charts showing roadmaps to the various planes of the Unicode Standard. I'm hoping you will provide French and Spanish translations for me. (I noticed your user name on the Translators available list.) The specifics are at User:Drmccreedy/roadmap_multilingual. Currently the Spanish Unicode articles use the English charts and the French Unicode article doesn't use them at all. Thank you for any help you can offer. DRMcCreedy (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, DRMcCreedy. I had a look, and I do a fair amount of translation from French, and wouldn't mind helping, especially for difficult points of translation. Most of these are not difficult, and machine translation can handle it adequately in most cases.
 * To lighten the load on your volunteer translators, here's what I suggest: use DeepL (free, online) to translate your French list (or any of about two dozen other languages that DeepL can handle) and just paste the values in to the table, but flag them as "needs proofreading" in some manner, and then when the table is full, ping your translator (me, for French, for example) and ask them to review it. They can fix up anything the machine translation got wrong, and ping you back, and then you can unflag everything.
 * As an example, I have added three entries to your French table using template xt, which places them in green serif font; that's my signal that these are raw, machine translations, not yet proofread. I suggest you fill out the rest of that table, using either that convention, if you like it, or anything else that separates the ones that are raw MT, from the ones that are proofread by human translator. Give me another ping when you are done, and I'll review the whole table. (Template xt! would place them in ; maybe that's a better flag.)
 * P.S., a request: please do not use  on my talk page, or any page at Wikipedia, because it is an unterminated Html tag which screws up syntax highlighting on the rest of the page on which it appears. Instead, use either: the self-closing version of the tag, , or the template version,  . Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I like the machine translation idea. I've completed that task for the French translation so it's ready for your review.  I have also updated my notes to use   in the future.  Thank you. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * DRMcCreedy, I've edited the France table, changing proofread items from red to green. I think I only changed one, which was "Surrogates"; the machine translation would've been okay in other contexts, but in the context of Unicode there's a particular term for it. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 01:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've updated the roadmaps with your help and have added the images to these articles:

I've also added machine translations to User:Drmccreedy/roadmap multilingual in preparation for Spanish translations if you're willing/able to do them. Thanks again. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_caract%C3%A8res_Unicode_(0000-FFFF)
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_caract%C3%A8res_Unicode_(10000-1FFFF)
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_caract%C3%A8res_Unicode_(20000-2FFFF)
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_caract%C3%A8res_Unicode_(30000-3FFFF)
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_des_caract%C3%A8res_Unicode_(E0000-EFFFF)

Editing
Which editing environment do you normally use? (See the list of editors if you're not sure.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Legacy Vector; why, are you taking a survey? Mathglot (talk) 06:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Vector is a skin. I'm interested in which editor you're using – 2003 (no toolbar), 2010 (default), WikEd (popular with experienced editors), etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 2010. Never tried WikiEd I don't think, but have heard of it. If it's popular, maybe I should look into it. Mathglot (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * So about your note at WT:MED, your web browser should be remembering all of your previous edit summaries. Just start typing, and anything that matches should pop up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that idea. That only works if you start with the right character, usually I do section edits wherever possible, which means it pops up the section name as the first part of the edit summary, like, say, /* World War II */, or when editing this section, /* Editing */; and so it doesn't remember the edit summariess except for the ones in articles that happened to have a section by that same name, if any even match, and those are hardly ever the ones I want. Even if I edit the whole article, so it doesn't prepopulate the summary field, you have to get the first few characters exactly the same, and if I think of the wording differently, it won't find a match if it matches the second word, or some other word; it has to match from the very beginning, letter for letter. Mathglot (talk) 00:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you switch to the 2017 wikitext editor, your browser won't be able to see the edit summaries, but the software will suggest options from your last 200 edit summaries. It does a full-string search, so if you start typing , it will pick up any edit summary that contains those two letters anywhere in it (e.g., any edit summary containing the word  ).  OTOH if you edit multiple wikis, it can only 'see' the edit summaries used on the local wiki.  The web browser approach can see across all the wikis (and non-wiki websites). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. Might be worth trying it out if for no other reason than that. Mathglot (talk) 01:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I found that it took me a day or two to get used to it. For me, it's usually a bit slower to open the page, but never slow enough to really matter.  Learning the keyboard shortcuts made a big difference to me, and I particularly like the link tool (⌘k on a Mac). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Russell Henderson (disambiguation)


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Nomination of Russell Henderson (disambiguation) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Russell Henderson (disambiguation) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Russell Henderson (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 06:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 08:08, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Maths, science, and technology request for comment
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 * ✅. Reco: withdraw. Mathglot (talk) 21:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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Possible help
Hello. Recently I've created the section Social construction of gender and would appreciate some help. Could you please tell me 1) if it can be maintained and 2) if you can help me phrase it better? Thanks!

(Also, my first language is Portuguese. Do you speak, maybe?) Gmsrubin (talk) 05:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Gmsrubin, I'd be happy to help, as long as it's not urgent, because I have a few things to take care of, and it might take a day, or several days; is that all right? I'm glad to hear about your native language; may I ask if it's BR-pt, or PT-pt? I do speak some, mais compreendo muito melhor que posso falar o escriver, partly because of interference from Spanish, which I speak much better. I've worked on some Brazilian topics along with a few other editors here, and we sometimes could use some help from a native speaker. Some of these articles are pretty mature, now, like Operation Car Wash (and the related articles Offshoots of..., Phases of..., Odebrecht–Car Wash leniency agreement, not to mention brief articles like Condução coercitiva, Caixa 2, and also this glossary to help create all the others.)  If any of that interests you, it would be great to have a native speaker involved. I'll get back to you about the article you asked about after not too long, I hope! Mathglot (talk) 05:32, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem at all! It's short in content, so hopefully won't take much of your time. (And, honestly, I'd love to see the section grow. I find it a very interesting topic and the debate is still alive.)
 * And it's BR-pt. I'll check those articles. Gmsrubin (talk) 07:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Fashion by decades articles
I really want the early and mid sections of these articles to change, for example, in the article 2000s in fashion, the sections Early 2000s (2000-2002) are changed to Early 2000s (2000-2003) and Mid 2000s (2003-2006) to Mid 2000s (2004-2006). It just does not seem right to me and other editors here. Is there a way to change or to convince the change? Thanks. Autisticeditor 20 (talk) 19:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Unused template subpage Template:Sfnlink/colon
I noticed the unused template subpage Template:Sfnlink/colon in a report. Do you know about Template:encodefirst? I always forget about it. I keep a link to Help:Template on my "hints to myself" page as a reminder. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Jonesey95, thank you so much for this. I don't know if you noticed in the template sandbox where I was banging my head against the wall trying to resolve that damn colon problem, and in the end, I never really did. I was not familiar with Template:encodefirst, so that is really handy to know. And for all the times I've visited Help:template (and Help:Advanced templates), I somehow never saw the #Problems_and_workarounds section (or if I did, it didn't register). I keep discovering new things about templates, and this notice is really welcome; thanks again, I owe you one. Have a great holiday season! (I've g7'ed the subtemplate.) Mathglot (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've done that exact head-banging dance three or four times. I maintain User:Jonesey95/Tools, a page I visit when I am stuck to remind me of solutions to problems that I have had in the past. Thanks for tidying up with the G7. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:48, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia style and naming request for comment
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Variant linking
Hi Mathglot, it's me again. I think Lipstick feminism fits enough into liberal/mainstream feminism to be linked as a variant, but I don't know how to do that myself. Could you please explain how the linking works? Gmsrubin (talk) 23:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Gmsrubin. You linked it in the second sentence above, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. Can you elaborate? Mathglot (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure! I mean putting it here, for example. Gmsrubin (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah I see, you want to add it to the Nav box. Just click the edit button at the top, find the ‘variants’ group label in the source, and add it in there. They are not in alphabetical order currently, so it might be worth trying to figure out if they are chronological, and then slip the new link in to the right place. One other thing I’d do is to try to find a source that confirms that it belongs there, i.e. a source that describes lipstick feminism as a type of liberal feminism. Hth, Mathglot (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding ping . Did you know you can WP:SUBSCRIBE to discussions, so you automatically receive a notification even if someone doesn't ping you? Mathglot (talk) 17:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, I just started using it :) Gmsrubin (talk) 20:58, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Glossary of French administrative law
Hello, Mathglot. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Glossary of French administrative law, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again&#32;or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, I got this Draft deletion warning today, Are you interested in working on this, or would you like to move it to your userspace? Or should I move it to my Userspace? I'm submerged in other stuff and probably won't be able to work on it for a good while. Mathglot (talk) 17:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Interested. My user space ok. Just barely back from wilderness
 * Thanks; ✅. Moved to: User:Elinruby/Glossary of French administrative law. Mathglot (talk) 19:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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American Civil War Bibliography
Further on American Civil War books in addition to my comments on my talk page in response to your comment. You may (or perhaps may not) be aware that there is an article Bibliography of the American Civil War, which I did not call to mind when I wrote my comments. That bibliography has many sub-categories. Some are in addition to or possibly a little different from the ones in my lists. The Wikipedia page was started by Professor User:Rjensen in 2007 and has been added to by many users, including me now that I recall, over the years. Professor Jensen, long retired apparently, is still a prolific contributor to Wikipedia, including to bibliographies. There are several "main articles" for some of the topics, such as unit histories in addition to the books listed in the generic main article. The "main articles" on additional topics are also listed at the end of the Bibliography of the American Civil War article in "Bibliography subsections." As near as I can tell, all of the entries in the main article are in Chicago Manual of Style, not Wikipedia CS1 and CS2. I also see that many entries do not have ISBNs. The following categories are listed at the end of the article as well: Historiography of the American Civil War, American Civil War books, Bibliographies of the American Civil War, and there are six other "main articles" listed under that category. I did not try to check for the styles, or duplication which would be even harder to check. I would be surprised if any of these articles are in a style other than straight Chicago Manual of Style.

I can't be sure every one of my books are listed in the main bibliography article, much less in the sub articles, but certainly the main bibliography includes many additional books so I think few if any of mine are omitted. My full list is 152,574 bytes; the Wikipedia bibliography is 207,656 bytes. The six other "main articles" would only add to that. So there are definitely quite a few citations to American Civil War books available in Wikipedia articles above the number of books in my lists.

There is also a category Category:Bibliographies of wars and conflicts which may interest you if you have not seen it. I didn't know it existed until I saw that it was removed from the Bibliography of the American Civil War article for some reason. Now that American Civil War bibliography is omitted from the wars and conflicts categories, a user must to go through a couple of other categories, including Category:Bibliographies of United States military history to get to the American Civil War books bibliography if looking at categories rather than names of articles is their method of searching. I wonder whether this change may lose some searchers since they might not get past the wars and conflicts bibliography when looking for the more specific civil war books lists. That wouldn't apply to a direct search for a bibliography on some topic, of course.

The early user whom I mentioned is User:Hlj. He has a page User:Hlj/CWbibliography. This includes citations to books that he does not own. The introduction states that the list was updated through 2010 but in fact I see additions through 2018 in the edit history. I am sure this list also contains some books that I do not own. I can't be sure, of course, whether he added all of his books to the Wikipedia bibliography but I know he made additions to that page over the years. So I would not be surprised if he added them all. I am not sure whether I added all of mine over the years but I also have made a number of additions to that article over the years. I will add some that I have picked up in the past year or so in the near future if they are not on the lists already. As with the other bibliographies, the entries on Hlj's lists are in straight Chicago Manual of Style format. Interestingly, given my comment, I see an edit summary in Hlj's edit history: "add some books, restore original format (this is a personal user page and I don't appreciate other folks editing it--thanks."

So there are a number of sources for books on the topic of American Civil War, mostly in complete citation, but some missing ISBNs in the Wikipedia general Bibliography of the American Civil War. There are also more sub-categories for the books in that article than the ones I have used in my lists. As near as I can tell, none of the entries are in Wikipedia styles for citations. There may or may not be duplication in the topics.

If you go ahead with the project, these additional Wikipedia pages may not just be useful but should include everything that you or a searcher might need. I now see the additional books would create an even more massive task to avoid any unwanted duplication in a reflib (though I think some duplication might be appropriate) and perhaps more importantly to convert the citations to one of the Wikipedia styles if that is necessary or desirable - which I assume it probably is. Perhaps with these Wikipedia bibliography articles available, all of the information in a reflib is already in Wikipedia and indeed in Wikipedia articles apart from my library and Hljs. Some note about that could be left somewhere in connection with reflibs and the existence of the citation information for these books would be more widely or easily available. There would need to be the caveat that the style used in these lists is permissible but they are in straight Chicago Manual of Style format, not in a "Wikipedia style." Also, ISBNs will need to be added for some entries. They are easily found in WorldCat without needing to look at the books themselves. Donner60 (talk) 02:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The general category, which I forgot to add to the comments above, is Category:Bibliographies of wars and conflicts. Donner60 (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi,, thanks for these comments, as well. I always imagined that the 'top-level' topic of the American Civil War' was too vast to be appropriate for a Reflib (just like say, the French Revolution is) and that likely it would end up requiring probably dozens of Reflibs on subtopics. (Unless there's some core set of sources that are used on widely unrelated subtopics, say, everything from Confederate attempts to raise funding from Britain, to particular campaigns in Pennsylvania.) It seems too vast to add right now in the current immature state of Reflib, where the main goal at this point is to get up to speed with about a dozen or so Reflibs on unrelated article domains, in order to have something with a bit of meat on it so that when I first raise it publicly for general comment, there is something to look at, and not just a bare bones framework empty of content. Attempting the Civil War in its entirety at this point would probably demand all my attention and slow the progress of Reflib in other areas, and as it's paramount to have a broad scope for the purposes of demonstration, I think I'm going to put the larger topic of the War in the large on the shelf for now, at the most general level.
 * However, I'd still like to find one bite-size chunk of it to include in Reflib now, rather than try to swallow the entire war topic, so maybe you could help me choose an article domain representing a subtopic (or sub-subtopic) of the ACW that night be amenable. An ideal choice would be a subtopic which would have several (or lots of) articles on the subtopic, and which would be likely to share some of the same sources. And ideally, of course, one which your bibliography (or that of rjensen or Hljs or anyone else you know of) already has some sources so it could help jump-start the Reflib by copying the citations instead of researching sources from scratch. Once identified, I can then proceed to converting what we have in that 'chunk' into a Reflib. Any advice on what subtopic might be appropriate for a more targeted Reflib domain on an ACW subtopic for now? Mathglot (talk) 23:36, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that an "American Civil War" library would be too large to be of much use in research. That is why I divided my much smaller but growing book list into topics. I do have in mind that a list of the general histories of the entire war might not need to be extremely large to have good coverage and be useful. These books are not likely to go into much depth on any specific event or topic, of course. But I have cited them as additional references or used them as a basis to become familiar with an event or topic. Some are well enough written and have enough key detail that they can be used in many articles.
 * A list of "general ACW reference books" also could be helpful. Eicher's Civil War High Commands and Warner's books with sketches of Union and Confederate general are often used sources. There are at least 2,500 existing articles on American Civil War events and topics but many of the articles need to be expanded or to have additional citations. The general histories and reference might be good starting points to find some basic information for new articles on narrower topics as well.
 * I will think about whether these two topics might be named differently and look back at the bibliography topic titles in doing so. I suppose one title could be histories of the entire war, general histories, overall histories or maybe something more catchy. Perhaps the other could be general reference books or more specifically, general American Civil War reference books. I will look back at the bibliographies to see if there may be better titles. I will think about whether another already defined topic along the same lines might be helpful.
 * I am reasonably sure that most or all of the books in these two categories could come from two of my specific categories. I can give a quick look to see if any other books from my lists or the other available lists might fit in those categories and list them in addition in my lists as useful but not owned or simply identified to you separately.
 * I think this identification and any related work can be done without taking a large amount of time. You have also motivated me to look at the various bibliography articles to see if some books published in the past 6 or 8 years might be included in the Wikipedia bibliographies if they are not already. Also, ISBNs need to be added. That may be a project that can be done a little at a time. After all, the bibliographies have remained as they were written without ISBNs for the most part for many years now. Donner60 (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Donner60, I appreciate this; your plan sounds really good. By the way, there's no particular urgency to any of this – I also need to go find another half dozen or so entirely unrelated topic areas for other Reflibs, and that will keep me busy for a while, so if you do want to look through your stuff and see what might make sense, that'd be great, but by all means take all the time you need. It's great brainstorming ideas with you, our strong and weak points seem nicely complementary, and I'm learning a lot, which is one of the reasons I came to Wikipedia in the first place so many moons ago, and I'm having a ball. (Hope you are, too!) Mathglot (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

The judeo brazilian portuguese and judeo venetian things you removed were sourced
this is the source for the JBP

"Not much is known about Jewish varieties of Portuguese in contemporary communities. However, we do know that contemporary Jewish communities in Brazil often incorporate Hebrew terminology into their Portuguese, which is a common feature of Jewish languages. Some Yiddish words, and even Ladino in Sephardic communities, are mixed in as well. Check out the Jewish Brazilian Lexicon below to learn more about these words. " https://www.jewishlanguages.org/judeo-portuguese

and this is the source for the judeo venetian

"•Ai hamorim non piacciono I confetti: “Donkeys (i.e., ignorant people) don’t like sugar coated almonds.” •The law of Moses, some take it by the head and some take it by the feet— refers to the flexibility of the law •Chi de goi se fida hazir magna: If you trust goyim, you’ll wind up eating pork. Ma chi se fida del giudeo non magna gnanca quello—but if you trust a Jew you won’t get even that. Adoniai sefatai tiftah—is from the Amidah, but understood in a negative way Fare sefoh: throw up. (sefoh-to bring forth) Mispetenecamod—to ruin something Restar come un Mordecai giasa. Play on words: become a frozen Mordecai, be stunned. Tananai—cacaphony, from to make a claim Cabala: lie In Livornese, thief is a version of gonif. Orsai comes from Yiddish—yartzeit" https://humwp.ucsc.edu/vja/2006/PRIVATE/media/text/responses/ResponseBassi.AK.pdf

I cited these in my edits of JBP and JV respectively. Denninithan (talk) 19:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * , I believe you are talking about my removal of this edit of yours at Judaeo-Romance languages, is that right? If so, this is a content-related disagreement related to WP:Verifiability, and as such, my Talk page is not the best venue to discuss it. If you wish, I will transfer this discussion to the Talk page of that article, where discussion may be resumed and other interested parties may take part. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be good if you transferred this to the talk page, thanks for offering. But on the topic of verifiability I don't see any reason as to why the source for JV would be considered unreliable and for the JBP source I have used the same website and the same page before in the past without issue.
 * Thanks, Denninithan Denninithan (talk) 23:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Also one thing I just noticed. I was having the same discussion with someone on the varieties of french article when i realized that person is you. But there you called my source (from the same website) "reliable" but on this article your saying the website is unreliable. So if you don't mind would you mind clarifying what you said.
 * Thanks, Denninithan Denninithan (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Denninithan, I've moved the top part of the discussion as indicated. Your last comment is about a separate article, Varieties of French, and content disagreement about that one belongs at Talk:Varieties of French. Again, I'll move this paragraph there if you wish, or since it's short, you can just start over at the Talk page. Lmk which you prefer. Mathglot (talk) 00:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

A solstice greeting
 ❄️Happy holidays!❄️

Hi Mathglot! I'd like to wish you a splendid solstice season as we wrap up the year. Here is an artwork, made individually for you, to celebrate. It's always great to collaborate with you. Take care, and thanks for all you do to make Wikipedia better!Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb }&#125;  talk

&#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 06:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

"Planking (boat building)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Planking_(boat_building)&redirect=no Planking (boat building)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 10:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Merry!


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Political party position in Dominican Republic
This link does it not prove that the PLD, a political party in my country, is not center-left? Oli (talk) 06:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, Oli. Well, that link doesn't prove anything, unfortunately, because it is a dead link, and there is nothing there. Worse, the Internet Archive has no record of it. (I&apos;ve changed the section heading above to something more evocative of the subject matter.) Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi again. There's a typographical mistake in that url; I think maybe you meant this one instead. I'll have a look at it. Mathglot (talk) 07:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've had a quick look at the web page, and there's no reason to look more deeply, because basically, you cannot use that page or anything from website vaguardiadelpueblo.do for verification of assertions about the PLD except for very basic and uncontentious information (when they were founded, where there headquarters is located, etc.) because the Vanguardia del Pueblo is the official organ of the PLD, and therefore not an WP:INDEPENDENT source. You can add the information about the position of the PLD to the article if you can find an independent source for it. I hope this helps! Mathglot (talk) 07:44, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Is this edit summary a threat?
Is this message that the user Vif12vf left me in the editing summary of the Dominican Liberation Party Article considered a threat or not?:

"If you continue to use yourself and primary sources over over reliable third-party sources to support claims you make that make no sense, it will be considered disruptive editing!"

If not, then I'm very sorry, I know I'm very impertinent bothering you for nonsense like this, but I just wanted to know. Oli (talk) 06:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Not entirely sure how me saying that your edits might be considered disruptive is supposed to be a threat, I am literally not threatening to do anything! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 06:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oli, first of all, it's not impertinent to ask, and you are always welcome to ask questions. Don't forget that I am only one editor, and you may get multiple opinions or advice if you ask a question at the WP:Tea house or the Help desk.
 * The quotation you are referring to above is the edit summary from revision 1191531896 of Dominican Liberation Party of 03:22, 24 December. While the edit summary is a bit gruff (brusco), and in principle the content of an edit summary should only address how the edit improves the article, and should not be unduly harsh towards another editor in case of a revert, there is no threat in my opinion. I hear some frustration in that edit summary, but that is understandable given that there was some history before that edit, and the preceding five edits show that you weren't hearing the objections to the edit, but simply reinserting them; this leads to something called edit-warring, which is indeed disruptive, and can require admin attention to sort out at the Edit warring noticeboard, and you don't want that to happen.
 * Making a bold edit, even one that other editors disagree with, is fine once; but once you understand either by a revert or by comments on the Talk page that some editors are in opposition to your edit, that is the time to discuss the disagreement at the article talk page and to attempt to come to some kind of agreement (WP:CONSENSUS). It's not okay to simply ignore the views of other editors if they disagree with you by repetitively reinserting your content, so please both of you go to the article Talk page, which is at Talk:Dominican Liberation Party, and see if you can come to an agreement. That is the first step; but if that doesnt work, there are other methods of dispute resolution, such as third opinion, mediation, and Rfcs. Does this answer your question? Mathglot (talk) 09:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!


User:A.S. BrownUser talk:A.S. Brown is wishing you Seasons Greetings! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's Solstice or Xmas, Eid, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus or even the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for almost everyone!

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Thank you for the welcome message, and a question
Just wanted to thank you for the welcome message! I did actually have a small question if that's okay.

I'm running into a problem with finding sources for Russian and eastern European figures. I did some work on the articles for Pavel Blonsky and Lev Kassil. They both were influential in their times and respective fields, but there's basically zero reputable sources on them in English.

I was wondering, how would you recommend finding sources? Is there a way to ask Russian speaking editors to help flesh out these articles by translating direct from the Russian? Thanks! MunsterManicotti5092 (talk) 22:17, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Mathglot (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Mathglot!


Happy New Year! Mathglot, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

Abishe (talk) 14:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

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Abishe (talk) 14:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)