User talk:Mathsci/Archive 15

footnote 38
Hi, I am not sure what you want with your footnote 38 at differential geometry of surfaces. the formula in question is the standard relation between the second fundamental form and the Weingarten map (shape operator), see for example page 24 of my book. Katzmik (talk) 13:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello. Some more recent authors define the second fundamental form differently unfortunately and this can be confusing. The older texts are fine and agree (Eisenhart, Struik, etc), but the definition is different in O'Neill for example.


 * BTW I very briefly toyed with the idea of adding a picture of a bearded mathematician to this article. I settled on adding Greul's picture of Gromov to his BLP. The nicest pictures I've seen so far are in the lavishly illustrated IHES handbook (a misidentified wikipedian is also in there playing duets with Zagier).


 * I'll be off tomorrow to ESI for about 2 weeks. Mathsci (talk) 14:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What is different in O'Neill? Are you talking about a sign convention?  Katzmik (talk) 09:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I'm in a Viennese café. I have all these texts at home in France. Why not look in your university library? Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

M. P. Appell
Do you happen to know if the M. P. Appell who invented Appell-Lerch sums is  Monsieur Paul Appell, or is this a different guy? R.e.b. (talk) 04:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * According to this collaborator of Don Zagier, they are the same person. (Incidentally U. might like to know that ESI in Vienna comes with a baroque chapel and organ. I tried the 2 last Bach violin sonatas + 4 Purcell pavans - highly recommended - with a Hungarian postdoc. There was no sign of a cat.) Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Reversion
I have asked a question about a your recent reversion at Talk:European ethnic groups the reasoning behind which I didn't understand completely. I hope you wont mind helping me to understand it. Happy editing.·Maunus· ƛ · 15:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Hugues des Baux
If you have it to hand, could you recheck the Cambridge Medieval History to confirm that Hugues (a leader of the revolt in Marseille in 1262) was a brother of Barral des Baux? I've tried for some time to pin him down in the des Baux genealogies; I can't seem to find him at the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, nor this page, I believe taken from Europäische Stammtafeln. Choess (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The most precise account is on pages 75-76 of "The Sicilian Vespers: A History of the Mediterranean World in the Later Thirteenth Century" by Steven Runciman, Cambridge University Press, 1992 ISBN 0521437741. He writes that Boniface de Castellane led the 1262 revolt, aided by Hugues des Baux, whose brother Baral des Baux remained faithful to Charles d'Anjou. I will add this citation to Marseille. Mathsci (talk) 23:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The skein is slightly more tangled than that. Unfortunately, that's where I first read about Hugh. Runciman refers to Hugh's revolt on p. 76; he says "But Barral of Baux remained loyal, although his cousin Hugh had joined the revolt". What had really confused me was that on p. 82, Runciman seems to say that Hugh was beheaded in 1264. I found Runciman's cited source, Sternfeld, on Google Books this evening. Here he identifies Hugh of Baux as the son of Bertrand de Baux, for which see also this source. This throws up a discrepancy, because Hugues de Baux, seigneur de Meyrargues et de Puyricard did not die until 1304. Now, my German's rusting out to an alarming degree, but if I read this part of Sternfeld correctly, Charles executed a lot of little fish, but Hugh and the leaders of the 1264 revolt got away. He eventually sold his seigneurie to Charles II in 1291, so it seems there was a reconciliation at some point. I'm going to make the changes to Charles I of Naples; I'll let you change Marseille as you see fit. Choess (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Oops, you're right, Hugues des Baux was Baral's cousin. Many thanks for your fascinating input. (Puyricard and Meyrargues are very close to where I live.) Mathsci (talk) 00:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Puyricard
Why isn't it a village? Am I right to believe that agglomeration denotes politics (the mayor from Aix and so forth) while village denotes the cultural place?Zigzig20s (talk) 00:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It is a straggling suburb to the north of Aix, on the 21 bus line (1,10 €). It is also correctly described as an agglomeration on the French wikipedia page. Villages near Aix that are not part of Aix include Eguilles, Le Tholonet and Vauvenargues. They form part of the Pays d'Aix. Mathsci (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But if you go there (and I have, many times), it looks like a village, doesn't it? There is square, a church, a small castle... It doesn't look like a suburb as Corsy or the Jas de Bouffan does...Zigzig20s (talk) 00:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Rebonsoir. You're quite right, but it has lots of newer bits added on. Like Palette. I actually want to add bits about the old centre and its monuments that appear on the French page (the original village around which agglomeration grew up). I have not yet been able to source these - I have not so far found them in my guides. I'm still looking at the moment. I have no objection at all to the word "village" being used to describe the historic centre - isn't there even a ruined chateau? (I've only been through the centre once by proxibus on the way back from Lignane.)


 * BTW I happened to take the # 1 bus today, not realising that it now goes beyond the Porte Cezanne to a new suburb (Hautes de Brunet). I was pleasantly surprised, but will not trade it in for rue Cardinale. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Quartier Mazarin is very nice, yes. I have been hoping to find out who Fernand Dol was for a long time BTW - one street close to the rue d'Italie is named after him. (Evocations du vieil Aix does not help.) I think he wrote an introduction to a book which is in the 'magasin' at the Mejanes library. Anyway...
 * I see your point about the newer bits but that could also apply to Saint-Cannat, which is a village. Why don't you think the newer bits are part of the village? In other words, why do you think that when new areas were added, it went from village to agglomeration? I think the answer is political. (BTW, was there ever a mayor for the village before it became a suburb/agglomeration of Aix?) Zigzig20s (talk) 01:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think there's a way of including both points of view, even in the lede. Puyricard is mentioned many times in medieval history and hopefully more details will be added to the article. The lede should probably describe Puricard as a village dating back to medieval times, around which a suburb has grown. (The same sort of thing would apply to Mazargues in Marseille.)


 * The Musée Granet received Dol's art collection in 1942. He seems to have been an art critic/collector in the 19th century. Mathsci (talk) 01:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(noindent) There's a lot of information at :

Mathsci (talk) 02:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I was hoping to create a page on Fernand Dol, do you think there would be enough info out there? Most street names have a page.
 * Re: Puyricard. That's all very interesting and I wish I wasn't so busy with postgrad things.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think the Musée Granet can probably help, since he was a donor. I did notice going through the sculpture section that reading the captions wa like reading a street map of Aix. There was even a gigantic marquis de Vauvenargues. When things are less busy I can ask there: the new conservateur seems quite helpful. Mathsci (talk) 19:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh. I didn't know we could just ask the curator...Zigzig20s (talk) 21:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:ANB
As you continue to attack me after having been warned multiple times for doing so, I've reported you at the WP:ANB. Even though I disapprove of your behaviour, I thought it fair to notify you about it. JdeJ (talk) 07:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Minor correction. The relevant topic can be found Here. Hope this helps.  Gazi moff  11:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Mathsci, would you please scour your recent contributions and refactor any potentially uncivil or ad hominem comments or insinuations you may have made about JdeJ. Surely you are able to discuss disagreements about encyclopedia content on the merits, and use dispute resolution for any matters you cannot resolve yourselves.  Jehochman Talk 13:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for refactoring some of your comments. I came by to add my voice to Jehochman's. You do good work here; in this particular case, though, I'd encourage you to keep doing what you've started doing since Jehochman's note; step back, disengage, and make an extra effort to interact civilly. Best wishes. MastCell Talk 16:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks MastCell. As I indicated to Dbachmann on his talk page, I stopped editing the article after the first edit. JdeJ's first edits and edit summaries, later described by him as "silly", were over the top. He blanked a third of the article. In retrospect I think both of us were over-reacting and it became clear fairly early on that his two edits were uncharacteristic. He is a good editor and, as I said in my second comment, he quickly identified the underlying problems with this article. I have no reason to be in conflict with him and think it's just unfortunate that the way we both expressed ourselves gave rise to these regrettable misunderstandings. I am surprised that one edit to European ethnic groups can have such consequences. I wholeheartedly apologize to JdeJ for these misunderstandings and wish to make it clear that I was describing particular edits of his, and certainly not him as a person or a wikipedia editor. I am sorry if he was upset: this was not at all my intention.


 * As for wikistalking, I was asked out of the blue on September 27th by User:Choess on my talk page to discuss Hugues des Baux, fief of Meyragues and Puyricard, in connection with a sentence I modified some time back in the history section of Marseille. . On the 28th we got onto Puyricard and Meyragues, in a very interesting and helpful chat. (This was just before and above JdeJ's first edit to my talk page.) I then went out and bought two books in Aix: one as a result of his questions and so that in due course the history of Aix could be improved; the other because people are frequently tagging the immigration section of Marseille and - lo and behold - there was a thick book on just this (I've searched in vain before on the web - I didn't think of the word Migrance). I regularly watch both Aix-en-Provence and Marseille and have helped write a fair number of related articles (La Vieille Charité, Great Plague of Marseille, Porte d'Aix, La Couronne, Bouches-du-Rhône, Old Port of Marseille, Victor d'Hupay, etc). I slightly corrected JdeJ's description of the University of Aix-Marseille, and why not if that is where I work? It was normal and even fun (yes!) to add material toPuyricard related to Choess's questions. The additions to Aix-en-Provence about Picasso and Vauvenargues also are topical since I know people who work at the Musée Granet, which is preparing for a special Picasso year in 2009.


 * I would like to thank MastCell, Jehochman and Dbachmann for their friendly guidance and support. It is really appreciated! Apologies again for any misunderstandings to JdeJ: happy editing! Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I have read Mathsci's comment and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity, it seems indeed to be true that it was a strange coincidence that we met at so different pages, so I hope Mathsci understand why I honestly thought he followed me, but I'm withdrawing that accusation. I accept Mathsci's apology, and apologise in turn for the heated situation. I believe we're both happy to put it behind us and I look forward to further co-operation with Mathsci. JdeJ (talk) 20:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, JdeJ. This was a storm in a teacup. Mathsci (talk) 22:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)