User talk:Matt Lewis/Archive 2

Not so grand
You mentioned here that you think you could put forwards a case. Well, I'm all ears if you need an admin. I'll ask a couple of other neutral ones to take a look at the case before any action was taken mind. --Jza84 | Talk  21:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * At the moment he's helped get British Isles locked again (well one editor started it, backed up by him and an IP). It was settling so I'm incensed about it, as I'm convinced it's Wikipeire. The locking admin would have just seen a second editor - but it could be Gold Heart as the IP (for example) along with Wikipeire. It can't go on. The article was so close to progressing for the first time in months.


 * Basically, It's his language and the way he phrases things - not just his edit history. But his edit history would convince me even if he could hide the language. There is also this comment about me here (he couln't resist it, and he trolled me in the same style as 78.16/Wikipeiere). I think he's expecting the block to happen - the more he appeals the longer it takes.


 * The editing links are: Andy Murray, UK nationality, flags, ROI-piped-Ireland, British Isles, Olympics (via Ovlem). It's way too much of a coincidence for a new editor to get into all of that at once. The odds must be millions against. The only thing missing is Canada (which is how I think he has an odd IP every now and again).


 * I will find examples of his commenting 'syle' if it would help. And provide diffs of Pureditor editing on Murray etc too if you want the case done properly. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The evidence is compelling - I haven't followed the "Irish/British" closely (merely dipping my toes in once in a while), but even I can see an overwhelming correlation. I'm happy to block him as a sock, but I'd just like a little more input/evidence to ensure there's no mistake here, infact I'm trying to strike a balance between WP:AGF and WP:DUCK. Indeed, regardless of socking, I'm not entirely happy with the way this gentleman has approached WP anyway. --Jza84 | Talk  01:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm putting something together as we speak (I don't think the checkuser will work on 78.16, as you'll see..) - I've got the telly on though so am getting distracted! I've just turned 38 so I'm trying not to just be on Wikipedia for a change (it takes over your life this place). Having said that, I'm out tomorrow night.. I think the only why to get this ID is via a case, so I'm making it as strong as I can. If I get it right we've got his new ISP I reckon. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to finish this in the morning I'm afraid - I can't believe the time. The case will be fine - I think he's basically cancelled his ISP, moved around a bit as Ovlem (etc), and came back on a new IP as User:213.202.189.10 (check out the edit history!), which he had to rename as User:ThatsGrand. I wouldn't say it if i wasn't 100% certain it was him. I'll have the full 'diff' thing with language simliarities etc for you tomorrow. I expect 213.202.189.10 is actually his IP, and he hasn't edited on it before. Bit of a flying start, eh? Straight onto Ireland as the name of the country.--Matt Lewis (talk) 04:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Case for User:ThatsGrand being a sockpuppet of User:Ovlem and User:Pureditor
I've split these into three groups:


 * Group 1: User:ThatsGrand
 * Group 2: User:Pureditor and 78.16.xx.xx (shown to be User:Wikipéire and Pureditor)
 * Group 3: User:Ovlem and the 'Ovlem accounts' accounts (per this SSP - User:Berby, User:MiddleEastlands, User:Dinari, User:NotUlsterScots)

1) ACCOUNT CREATION:
2nd September: Not long after Pureditor was exposed as Wikipeire (26th August here) - an active period for the puppetmaster, who stopped editing as Pureditor, and created a number of accounts (I believe between changing ISP's).

Combined interests:

UK nationality ("sovereignty" of Wales and Scotland etc, Northern Ireland), Ireland (specifically using “Ireland ”pipe-linking to Republic of Ireland), but also Irish issues like Dublin, British Isles and Home Nations. Also there is tennis (specifically Andy Murray and his brother, and a UK-only nationality for him - Pureditor doesn't like Wales or Scotland being non-UK countries), and the Olympics (specifically Ireland piping - the dislike of ROI is another 'obsession').

User:ThatsGrand started editing with this ip, 213.202.189.10, and after 4 hours of accomplished editing, registered an account called “User:IP213.202.189.10” (based on his IP number). He was blocked for doing this and was forced to change his account name – he chose User:ThatsGrand). The edits of user User:IP213.202.189.10 are the early edits of ThatsGrand. The early User:213.202.189.10 IP edits are are a group in themselves.

He wrote on his IP page: “I started editing with this ip and since registered an account. Any use of this account is accidental and the alternative account is where I aim to do my editing “. (a link leads to User:ThatsGrand).


 * Q): Why would a new and genuine user want to start an account by effectively proving his IP address (ie using it for the new account name)?
 * A?: The person has had a previously identified IP address, and is at a new location/ISP.


 * Q): How could someone “accidentally” use the IP account behind it?
 * A?: It may easily happen if a person signs out a lot to use multiple accounts. It could be even be done purposely when a caveat like the above has been made.

Note: There was one edit on this IP in May 2007 to Mick Hucknall – but I can assume this is a one off by a genuine user. It may be also be why he is fixed on this account, as this can be called a “first and only edit”

2) EARLY EDITS:
User:ThatsGrand started editing like a long-time user, with all the combined interests of the ‘Ovlem accounts’, and User:Wikipéire/User:pureditor. I believe that the sockmaster was moving from 78.16/78.19 and on to the new 213.202.189.10. The ‘Ovlem accounts’ were made at various places in between ISPs/residences, primarily to avoid the attention of user:Mooretwin, who edits on all the articles of interest here. According to User:Alison at a checkuser here they are from "all over the place" (although are clearly a group according to me, and User:Thatcher here.)

As User:213.202.189.10 (the IP address):

A major connecting factor here is User:Ovlem. Part of my case is that the puppetmaster has been using the 'Ovlem' socks from different locations (between ISP's), to edit on the Olympics (and avoid Mooretwin), but has not used Pureditor (his last major account) during or since. All of the Ovlem socks were created just after Pureditor was 'outed' here. His thinking, IMO, is that technically, with his new IP, he is now 'unconnectable' with Preditor/Wikipeire. User:ThatsGrand has been asking for the checkuser, saying that it will prove him innocent. It is worth also noting that Ovlem has also tried a SSP case on Mooretwin.


 * His first two edits was at Talk:Great Britain at the Olympics here and was about “Ireland” being the official name of the country.


 * His third edit was a comment about the Good Friday Agreement ( here, correction, here). As Pureditor here the conversation he was in found the Good Friday Agreement to be a form of proof that Ireland was the official name of the country. He also brings this up when piping Ireland while editing as MiddleEastlands here.


 * His fourth edit here mentions “sovereign states” - not a common term when describing a country, but an obsession of his.


 * His fifth edit (onwards) here correction here attacks counters user: Mooretwin (who Pureditor has accused of having sock puppets – this is also where Pureditor left off) and typipcally uses repeats the intitials ”POV” to do it with.

It seems that in 3.5 hours of editing Wikipedia he has learnt how to pipe-link 'VERIFY' into conversation here. First thing in the morining he was dating ‘fact’ tags etc. Not the stuff of a 'newbie'.

As User:ThatsGrand (which started as User:IP213.202.189.10):


 * His first edit: He used the edit note "rv. Not accurate. POV phrasing, team is called GB". here.


 * His second edit: was to distance Northern Ireland from the UK here correction here.

Soon he is on the flag interest here (and piping ROI too) – and is editing against Mooretwin too. here. Mooretwin is a key, as the Ovlem accounts were partly created to avoid his notice, IMO.

He then goes through the Olympics (piping Ireland), Ireland itself, the UK, and 'filling out' a tennis interest (although I would argue that Andy Murray not being called 'Scottish' is the principle factor here).

3) COMBINED HISTORY:
These are from a useful tool:


 * Pureditor’s interests
 * Ovlem’s interests
 * ThatsGrands interests

Groups of 3:
1) User talk:Mooretwin


 * ThatsGrand
 * Ovlem
 * Pureditor


 * Sock case - Pureditor accused Mooretwin of being a sock of 212.250.165.11.
 * Sock case - Ovlem later started an SSP on Mooretwin.
 * Piping Ireland & flag - ThatsGrand

2) Home Nations - 


 * ThatsGrand
 * Ovlem
 * 78.16.227.225


 * Comment: 78.16.227.225 edited also on Great Britain at the Olympics and Northern Ireland
 * Piping Ireland - Ovlem (x2)
 * Piping Ireland - 78.16.227.225 (x3)
 * Piping Ireland - ThatsGrand (x1)

3) Dublin


 * ThatsGrand
 * Ovlem
 * Pureditor


 * Piping Ireland - Pureditor (x1 +)
 * minor c/e - Ovlem (x1)
 * minor c/e - ThatsGrand (x1)

4) Northern Ireland


 * ThatsGrand
 * Ovlem
 * Pureditor


 * Comment: 78.16.227.225 also edited on Great Britain at the Olympics and Home Nations
 * Comment: Around July there are several occasions of Puredior battling Mooretwin on the piping of Ireland, as Ovlem does later.
 * Comment: Changing "Londonderry" to "Derry" is a Pureditor pursuit on Derry. Pureditor comments to Mooretwin over piping Ireland in Derry Talk here. He made the Londonderry-Derry edits as as 78.16.xx.xx eg here.
 * Piping Ireland - Pureditor (x many times)
 * Piping Ireland in flag - Pureditor x (x1 +)
 * Piping Ireland - Ovlem (x5)
 * Piping Ireland - 78.16.227.225 (x2)
 * Piping Ireland in flag - Ovlem (x1 +)
 * Piping Ireland in flag - ThatsGrand (x2)
 * Londonderry - Derry - ThatsGrand (x1)

Groups of 2:
1) Andy Murray


 * ThatsGrand
 * Pureditor


 * Comment: ThatsGrand tried to add "" showing his old obsession of nationality with UK nations. Pureditor has done exactly the same in the past "". His preference is UK-first, then Scotland if he has to, but never British.
 * Ireland piping flag - ThatsGrand (x3)
 * UK for "Scotland" - ThatsGrand (x3)
 * Pureditor (x6)

2) Olympic Council of Ireland


 * Ovlem
 * 78.16/Pureditor


 * Comment: The above history shows Ovlem, 78.16 and Pureditor reverting Mooretwin throughout August in line - ie with almost no other editors inbetween!


 * Piping Ireland - Pureditor (x2)
 * defining Ireland - 78.16.140.140
 * removing "for the state" Pureditor
 * removing "for the state" - 78.16.140.140
 * removing "for the state" - Ovlem (x5)

3) Tourism


 * Ovlem
 * Pureditor


 * picture align edit - Ovlem (x1)
 * picture align edit - Pureditor (x2)

4) Great Britain at the Olympics


 * Ovlem/Berby/MiddleEastlands
 * 78.16.227.225


 * Comment: This sock case starts with 78.16.227.225, and moves onto the Ovlem socks. 78.16.227.225 also edited Northern Ireland and Home Nations (see above). Again Mooretwin is reverting and vice versa.


 * Ireland piping - 78.16.227.225 (x1)
 * Ireland piping - Ovlem (x4)
 * Ireland piping - Berby (x4)
 * Ireland piping - MiddleEastlands (x1)

5) Republic of Ireland


 * ThatsGrand
 * Pureditor
 * Berby


 * Irish first - ThatsGrand (x1)
 * Ireland name - Pureditor (x3)
 * edit war on British link - Berby (x3)

6) British Isles


 * Pureditor
 * ThatsGrand


 * Comment: Wikipeire/Pureditor/78.19 and ThatsGrand share the same propensity to troll.


 * Wikipeire/Pureditor (as 17.19) has trolled User:Matt Lewis' talk page here and - here (where he reverted me almost into trouble), and has commented in a similiar 'familiar' vein on the BI talk here: "Has Matt been drinking?" was his first comment on the page, just after a mainpage undo of me that helped to get the article locked. How did he even find this page? It's hardly a Featured Article. He jumped in to correct me with his main page edit, so he was clearly watching me edit, though as ThatsGrand I had had no previous direct contact with him whatsoever. I had plenty as Pureditor though (I made the SSP on him), and even more as Wikipeire (I made the SSP on him too).


 * Since I started this sockpuppetry case on ThatsGrand, he has started being positive with me, even though I have directly accused him of being Wikipeire.

7) Dublin GAA


 * ThatsGrand
 * 78.16.190.100 (not Dublin IP)


 * minor c/e - 78.16.190.100
 * minor c/e - ThatsGrand

8) Éire


 * ThatsGrand
 * Wikipéire


 * Piping Ireland - Wikipeire (x3 on Ireland name)
 * Piping Ireland - ThatsGrand (x3 on Ireland name)

9) Republic of Ireland national football team


 * ThatsGrand
 * Wikipéire


 * Piping Ireland - Wikipeire (x1)
 * minor c/e - 78.16 (x3)
 * image c/e - ThatsGrand (x3)

Note 1: User:Wikipéire appears further back on a few of the above articles - I haven't checked them all as he has been shown to be Pureditor.

Note 2: Please bear in mind that when you remove these combined interests there is almost no editing left. There is some football, which always was a passing interest of this editor.

4) LANGUAGE STYLE:
I was going to try something here as the editor has a certain style, but I won’t bother having seen all the above, which is conclusive to me. Contact me if you want me to look a shared language etc. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

5) SUMMARY:
The combined effects of the following lead my to belive all 3 of these 'groups' are the same eitor.


 * Time of account creation (1st Sept, a few days after Pureditor was accused and stopped, and during the Ovlem accounts)
 * The suspicious nature of him detailing his IP detailing, using it as a username, and suggesting he may use the IP accidentally.
 * Immediate skill in editing
 * Immediate interest in piping Ireland
 * 95% of thatsGrand's interests are Pureditors
 * The diversity of the above articles, and the lack of any other articles to dilute the coincidence with - they all can be connected with each other.
 * User:78.16.227.225 connecting Great Britain at the Olympics with Home Nations (where Ovlem and ThatsGrand have edited) and Northern Ireland (where Ovlem, Pureditor and ThatsGrand have edited).
 * The use of the term "sovereign states"
 * The pickup of the 'Good Friday Agreement' argument from Pureditors last attended discussion
 * The connection on User:Mooretwin's Talk page with Ovlem and Pureditor (both accusing him of socking and edit warring with him over piping Ireland), and ThatsGrand editing on it too.
 * Only Wikipeire/Pureditor (and perhaps another editor on occasions) has gone around actively piping ROI to Ireland. Only Wikipeire/Pureditor edit wars on it.
 * Piping 'Ireland' in flags (Ovlem, Pureditor, ThatsGrand)
 * Changing Londonderry to Derry (ThatsGrand on Dublin, and 78.16 with a Pureditor comment on Derry).
 * Pureditor and ThatsGrand at British Isles (esp ThatsGrand's fist edits regarding myself, and his history with myself)
 * Pureditor and ThatsGrand at Andy Murray (esp in using hidden code on the nationality issue)
 * Ovlem and Pureditor both doing similar 'align' edits to the picture group at Tourism.

It is the easiest to prove that ThatsGrand is Ovlem, IMO (esp removing "for the state" at Olympic Council of Ireland, and piping Ireland in flags). It more-than-easy to prove Puredior it Ovlem (see the 'align' edits at Tourism for the most singular example). And ThatsGrand (who I believe has tried hard not to leave a trail at all) has all of Pureditors interests, and a huge editing crossover (most tellingly at British Isles and Andy Murray). He also combined-edits with Pureditor on User talk:Mooretwin, Home Nations, Dublin, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Dublin GAA, Eire and Republic of Ireland national football team (the last two connected by Wikipeire). ThatsGrand actually has no interests that cannot be linked to the other editing accounts - the others interest, nationality at Olympics, connect with Ovlem.

6) DISCUSSION:
I'll keep all this here for the moment. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've noticed this and will continue to defend myself even if you ignore the facts regarding the checkuser. Please don't edit my proof, if you want to discuss something, open a section on my talk page or yours not on my own personal side page.ThatsGrand (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've corrected three mistakes above, per ThatsGrand's defence. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

7) DECISION:
I've blocked this sockpuppet. The evidence is/was overwhelming and another admin agrees (see here). I'm sure Wikipeire/Pureditor/Ovlem/ThatsGrand troll is reading this, and so then can be sure that going forwards, I will block any suspicious accounts without checkuser who think they can circumvent rules and consensus on British Isles/Republic of Ireland issues. --Jza84 | Talk  20:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the first time I'm seeing this on your talk page (and the other stuff, but we won't talk about that :/). Point is, I've just completed the checkuser case and I think you might be interested in the results. Just to let you know! - A l is o n  ❤ 09:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just read this after replying to Jza below. I didn't push it at checkuser as I think both Wikipeire and myself thought he would pass one as ThatsGrand! I expect you have some niftily combining tools up there. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)