User talk:MatthewVanitas/Archive 58

Article of Sambhaji the Maratha King
Hello MatthewVanitas, I have written this in talk page of the said article on Sambhaji. I have also mentioned it on your talk page so that you get to read it.

Said article about Sambhaji definitely relies on older references. Sambhaji is historical figure of much mystery, curiosity in his own state of Maharashtra, India as well as globally. This curiosity and mystery arises because his career has not been understood properly due to lack of authentic sources. A fact to support this statement is that, From 1880's to 1960's Sambhaji was the most widely portrayed historical figure in Marathi plays, having more plays based on him even than his father Shivaji. The playwright's and historians based their knowledge on whatever sources were available at that time and hence they have defamed Sambhaji blatantly. This created a false image of Sambhaji which is not backed by proper research into the topic. The sources available on Sambhaji's reign were very few before 1960's. They were based primarily on the 'Chitnis Bakhar' which was written by 'Malhar Ramrao Chitnis' who was a direct descendant of 'Balaji Chitnis' who was executed by Sambhaji in 1681 for conspiring against the empire with some of the fellow ministers. Due to this many reputed Marathi historians well as reputed British(eg - Grant Duff) and other Western historians have also based their work on Chitnis Bakhar. Hence they have portrayed Sambhaji in a bad light. This has resulted in great spread of misinformation about Sambhaji in the masses. Many modern Indian as well as Western historians such as 'J.L.Mehta' have based their work wrongly on the shoulders of these older reputed Marathi and Western historians. I am not challenging the scholarly reputations of these scholars such as JL Mehta. They are definitely reputed scholars but they have definitely based their works on several false refences. Proper research about Sambhaji's career begun in the 1960's. V.S.Bendre spent 40 years examining actual papers, and reliable contemporary references and released his book on Sambhaji in 1960. The book had caused great storm in Maharashtra as this book portrayed Sambhaji in a whole different light. This was the first book which wrote about the capabilities and character of Sambhaji in a positive manner. This book revolutionized the existing belief about Sambhaji and many historians started researching on Sambhaji seriously. Historians such as Dr.Kamal Gokhale were on the forefront along with Bendre. In fact Sambhaji's Samadhi(memorial) at Vadhu-Budruk was discovered by Bendre in 1960. Before that nobody ever knew about his Samadhi. This shows the general ignorance about the ruler before 1960's. Post 1960's progressively many new contemporary sources have been unearthed and published by Marathi Historians. Some 300 odd letters from the reign of Sambhaji are available to this date. Many books which portray Sambhaji in a positive manner have been written after 2000 based on new and proper research. These have cleared many false allegations against Sambhaji. Due to recency, still many of these works have not been translated into English yet, hence modern western historians are quite ignorant about Sambhaji and his reign. Historians such as A.D.Pisurlekar have examined contemporary British, Portuguese and Sanskrit sources which actually show the capabilities of Sambhaji. The Portuguese papers describe him as a 'war like prince'. A letter of British governor in Mumbai in 1684 states that Sambhaji is the ruling boss in the region and no one can challenge his authority. French traveller Abbey Carrey(I don't know the proper spelling) has also written about Sambhaji's intelligence in 1672. Almost nothing was known about Sambhaji's political, military capabilities and administration before 1960. These details were unearthed after the proper research began. That's why you will find that older references about Sambhaji's reign only focus on his character and never focused on his military and political and administrative achievements. Hence you will find very less data about his battles and campaigns in those older books. As if no important battle was fought during Sambhaji's reign, and Sambhaji did not have any successes apart from his heroic death. These references have blatantly ignored battles and conflicts during the reign of Sambhaji. But this cannot be true as Aurangzeb the Mughal Emperor (one of the three gunpowder empires of the medieval ages) had arrived in Deccan in 1681 to conquer the Deccan Plateau with a five lakh strong army. Deccan was geared for a showdown between Sambhaji and Aurangzeb and both wanted allies. Aurangzeb formed an anti-Sambhaji alliance with the Siddis, Portuguese and Mysore. While Sambhaji also formed an alliance with Adilshahi and Qutubshahi. Sambhaji defeated Siddis, Portuguese and Mysore in his campaigns which became known only after 1960. His victory at the Battle of Trichinopoly against Chikkadevaraya of Mysore in 1682 is a great example of military genius. Sambhaji actively supported Adilshahi and Qutubshahi militarily against Mughal invasions and sieges. Sambhaji also fought several battles with the Mughals in 1680-89. Sambhaji and his generals defeated the Mughal army, harassed them, ransacked their supply chains and reduced them to starvation multiple times. Aurangzeb's two pincer moves in 1683 and 1684 respectively with forces having strength upto 1 lakh were defeated back by Sambhaji and his generals using guirella tactics and avoiding pitched battle. Sambhaji fought along the various borders very effectively. Managing multiple warfronts simultaneously and managing his limited army and resources efficiently. Due to Sambhaji's administrative policies and military capabilities Aurangzeb was never able to break through the core of Maratha Empire In the Sahyadris in his nine-year reign. Sambhaji increased the warfronts to a wider scale to negate mughal numerical superiority. Sambhaji's field army was close to 70,000 pitted against 5,00,000 mughal troops. Sambhaji divided his army into small groups to harass mughal army and ransack supply chains using the mobility of Maratha light cavalry. He placed garrisons atop important passes in the Sahyadris to secure his control. He strengthened the chain of Maratha forts in Sahyadris. He avoided pitched battles against the mughals. However, once he along with his 30,000 men defeated a 35,000 strong Mughal army in battle of Kalyan for recapturing Kalyan in 1682. Overall the Marathas fought at least 65 battles during Sambhaji's reign which were mostly won by the Marathas. According to older references if Sambhaji was drunkard, womanizer and addict then who fought such a overwhelmingly strong enemy such as Aurangzeb with limited resources?. How did the Marathas even survive the attack of a half a million strong army for nine years? How did the Marathas manage to control the coast against Portuguese and British when all their major resources were directed to fight Aurangzeb? All these new facts about Sambhaji have been unearthed only in the past 60 years. Various authors such as Shivaji Sawant, Vishwas Patil, Sadashiv Shivde, Namdeorao Jadhav, S.A.Bahekar, Jaysingrao Pawar have further discovered new sources. A lot of research still needs to be done on the person. Sambhaji was definitely a highly capable ruler who was definitely not a drunkard, womanizer, sensual pleasure seeker. As he was constantly engaged in warfare for his nine years. Sambhaji was politically sound. Sambhaji tried to form various alliances against Aurangzeb. He even tried to modernize his navy. He supported many new generals such as Santaji Ghorpade, Dhanaji Jadhav, Kanhoji Angre were promoted by Sambhaji who went on to became distinguished military commanders In the future. Sambhaji managed the drought situation in Maharashtra in 1687-88 really well by adhering to strict disciplinary policies. He gave certain subsidies to poor people during the drought. Sambhaji definitely played a great role in the solidifying the Maratha Empire. Sambhaji continued all his father's major policies throughout his reign from 1680-89. None of these facts have been mentioned in those old sources. New reliable sources (first class contemporary sources) contain all those facts about Sambhaji. Many new historians have also written that Sambhaji was not running behind women in his youth. He was great scholar and has 7 books to his credit all of which were written from 1670-76, the time when older sources describe him to be drunken and busy with women. The older sources also don't mention anything about this 1672 campaign against the Koli Kings of Jawhar and Ramnagar. He took part in active battles since 1672. He was a busy prince who handled foreign envoys in Shivaji's abscence. If he was busy taking such responsibilities at such a young age then how can he be busy with women and drunk constantly? This is true that no conclusive evidence has been found about Sambhaji's character. But the logical interpretation of the situation definitely makes one think about the capabilities and character of Sambhaji as a ruler. The logical interpretation leads us to think that Sambhaji was not addicted, womanizer and rash infact he was an alert king with great military prowess and administrative abilities and political foresight. Sambhaji did not lose any important Maratha fort when he was alive. All these factors have come into recent consideration by modern historians. Sambhaji's portrayal is getting positive day by day in Maharashtra as new sources are being discovered with time. English is a global language and not much of this work has been translated into English. Hence English writers are still considering the older sources which have been already translated into English before. Hence English writers except Robinson have not written positively about Sambhaji. Even though these Marathi historians may not have papers presented internationally still they have definitely discovered the truth about Sambhaji. This is not a biased point of view glorifying Sambhaji because I have read both the point of views(positive and negative) about Sambhaji. Please do consider my additions to the article based on these new Maratha sources. I keep on posting them time to time on Wikipedia. Please read this @MatthewVanitas, @Bonadea Thank you so much. Charvak157 (talk) 13:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC) Charvak157 (talk) 14:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello MatthewVanitas, I have written this in the talk page of the article Sambhaji, in the discussion Sambhaji- old references vs new references. Please do read this

Hello everyone, extending my argument about validity of old references about Sambhaji, I am presenting the comments on reliability of sources on the Marathas written by reputed historians V.S.Bendre and V.K.Rajwade, from the preface of Bendrey's book 'Malojiraje and Shahaji Maharaj' (pg 31-40) These will make it clear why I have been opposing the reliance of this article on the older references. This is a great extensive commentary on the reliability of the sources on the Maratha history.

Start 'We must understand the historical truth by assessing the quality, strengths and weaknesses of the evidences used to write historical writings. These weaknesses are of two types 1) If the writer is biased, then he uses incomplete or wrong information and his writing will be weak and unreliable. 2) The accuracy of historical writings decreases with an increase in the time interval between the historical event and the time of writing. We also have to consider the human tendency of writing history from the author's own point of view.

People who are just writing the history and are not related to concerned historical figure only write about existing beliefs. Their writings cannot be considered as reliable as the writings of the people who were related to the historical figure. Hence, contemporary as well post-event 'bakhars' and 'haqeekats' are 'third class sources'. While contemporary reports and news letters are 'second class sources' In these second class sources, official newsletters, 'shakavalis', autobiographies or information deliberately acquired by other kingdoms etc. can be considered to be more reliable as compared other folklore type second class sources.

Evidences such as Official Letters of the officers, Letters of the families related to the historical event, contemporary accounts statements etc. can be considered as 'first class statements' for judging the historical truth.

By using the above principles in the case of the Maratha Empire 1) The letters of Mughals which tell the account of the Marathas are not as reliable as the letters of Shivaji-Sambhaji, as they already contain a biased point of view against their enemies. Still, it is wrong to ignore them completely.

2) The British newsletters about the Marathas were a good 'second class source' till the point when they were writing it from an impartial point of view. But, since the 18th century, when the British became the competitors of the Marathas, their letters started becoming more and more biased against the Marathas. Hence their reliability fell considerably.

The 'third class sources' such as 'Bakhars' and 'Haqeekats' are often written at the will of a person. Hence they are not backed by proper evidence, and should not be used to reconstruct history.

V.K.Rajwade in his book on 'sources of Maratha history' written around 1910, has clearly mentioned that 'You take any Bakhar in your hand and you will rarely find a bakhar having correct judgement of timeline of historical events. Imaginory Relations of mythological stories, Lack of printing etc. has resulted in creeping of many errors in those 'bakhars'. These bakhars often have exaggerated events without checking their historical validity.'

The bakhars have often given very short informations about 1) Pre-Shivaji and contemporary Muslim kingdoms. 2) Any campaign of Shivaji. 3) The family inter-relations and conditions in Bhosale or the Peshwa family. This information is completely confusing, contrasting, unrealistic, irrelevant that it can never be considered as true without the support of other sources.

If we go on trust the bakhars without the support of 'first class sources' then we are not able to differentiate between the true and false informations given in the Bakhars. Hence, if we write the history based on the Bakhars only, then due to lack of reliable sources, our attempts will mostly fail. Plus even if an event is described in the same way in multiple bakhars, still it cannot be considered true by the principle of majority. Hence, even one 'first class source' such as 'original document' is enough to negate the majority of the Bakhars. Hence, the principle of majority does not work here. A single 'original document' can be trusted more than any Maratha or foreign Bakhars or Bakhar like accounts.

V.K.Rajwade has written about the Bakhars that the Bakhars within themselves can be classified as third class, second class and first class respectively. All these Bakhars are useful in some way. 1) Sabhasad Bakhar 2) Malhar Ramrao's Bakhar 3) Shivdigvijaya Are the three most important Bakhars. Like other Bakhars, these Bakhars are also plagued in several aspects such as wrong judgement of timeline, ignorance about the capabilities of the ruler, exaggeration, lack of organized information etc. It is totally necessary to reach out till the roots of the Bakhar's writings to verify it properly before trusting them as history. Available versions of the Bakhars are often second or third versions of the original one, and hence are corrupted with addition of new information.

1) Sabhasad Bakhar is completely written on the basis of pure recall of information, hence it cannot be considered as a completely reliable source.

2) Malhar Ramrao's Bakhar also has certain shortcomings hence cannot be considered as valid.

3) Shivdigvijaya uses old letters but the author was not well trained in organising the information, hence it cannot be considered as a completely reliable source. Hence these 3 major Bakhars are not at all 'first class sources' for examining the Maratha history. The Muslim 'Tawarikhs' also seem to have similar shortcomings and hence are not a reliable source of information.

All these problems give rise to the question that, How can we verify the information in the Bakhars? The answer is Contemporary Marathi, Persian, Kannada, English, Portuguese letters are the only sources to crosscheck the information in the Bakhars. If these are not found then we will not have comprehensive results. And to date very few of such letters have been found.

Reputed historians such as Grant Duff also trusted these Bakhars. Hence information written by him or his students cannot be considered as reliable. These new sources of original letters have not been discovered yet, hence we can trust the information in the Bakhars only if it is verified with an original source.

The reader often fails to understand the historical truth after relying on the Bakhars. And every figure in the Maratha history has been affected to a level due to lack of original sources. Many Bakhar writers did not have access to multiple original sources which limited their sourcing, and led them to insert Imaginory events in the history.

In case of Chatrapati Sambhaji, I (V.S.Bendrey) have compared events and descriptions in the Bakhars and descriptions of the same events in 'original documents' to prove how the descriptions in the Bakhars are Imaginory, Unrealistic and exaggerated.

(My own personal note{charvak157} - I don't have the book written by Bendre on Sambhaji with me right now, I will mention all these comparisons by Bendrey as soon as I get the book.)

In his conclusion V.K.Rajwade has mentioned that The sources of Maratha History have been written, compiled and published in a disorganised manner. These sources should have been presented in an organized manner. These poorly verified sources can definitely fool the person who is making his assumptions about the history on the basis of these sources.'

End Chhatrapati Sambhaji's history has been written by most authors such as Grant Duff, and other reputed historians such as Jadunath Sarkar, G.S.Sardesai etc who worked well before 1960's obviously had to rely on whatever sources were available in the forms of the Bakhars. As I have mentioned in my previous talk, authentic sources about Sambhaji have been discovered only after 1960. And most of these have not been translated into English. Hence, the earlier reputed historians whose work on the Marathas is considered to be seminal were not able to judge Sambhaji properly. These old Bakhars and sources have a portrayed Sambhaji like an imaginary, fiction like character in malicious way, ignoring his capabilities and contributions as a ruler. The bakhars often unrealistic accounts about Sambhaji which bewilder the reader. There are many examples supporting this. I will state one example here. According to the Bakhars, Sambhaji executed his stepmother Soyarabai. By sealing her in a wall alive. But 'Sambhaji's letter to Bakre Shastri of Kudal' in which he expresses grief over the death of Soyarabai. If he executed Soyarabai then why would he grieve for her death? Plus evidences indicating that Soyarabai was alive much after the execution of ministers involved in the plot are available.

Such misinformations about his character have been proven wrong in the past 50-60 years. And exploits of his military, political and administrative achievements have come to the fore in these time which were completely ignored before.

I sign off for today, and complete my today's argument. @MatthewVanitas, @Bonadea, @JonathanSammy please read this. Thank you so much.

Charvak157 (talk) 11:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC) Charvak157 (talk) 11:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

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I see you're one of the editors for the Reddy talk page. First of all, I would like to say I respect your work. But you said Reddys are not kings, landlords, poets, and chieftains. Please check the below source.

https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/160582/7/07_chapter%201.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiamaster (talk • contribs) 05:15, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

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Hello
I am in one of my article improvement pushes, and need an opinion from someone else who has dealt with folk-instruments. You worked on Bladder fiddle at one point; I have been working to expand it. I can see that the Boom-ba was a descendant or cousin of the bladder fiddle and merged them. Now I probably need to split the articles apart again. It was no problem having the two in the same article until I went to describe them with Hornbostel-Sachs. Some versions of the instruments blend together 3 different categories. I dealt with the chordophone part easily, but now I need to consider the idophone and membranophone.

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Category:Executive branch of the Government of Afghanistan has been nominated for renaming
Category:Executive branch of the Government of Afghanistan has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:27, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 March 6 § File:Manqabat-e-Qari Muslehuddin.jpg
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 March 6 § File:Manqabat-e-Qari Muslehuddin.jpg. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:10, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

"Notability (artists)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Notability (artists). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 14 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Murals in Vancouver


A tag has been placed on Category:Murals in Vancouver requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz Read! Talk! 14:10, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Manxlabourparty.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Manxlabourparty.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. HapHaxion (talk / contribs) 01:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Ghouls in popular culture for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ghouls in popular culture is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Ghouls in popular culture until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. TTN (talk) 10:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Michael Stanley (author)
Hello, MatthewVanitas. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Michael Stanley (author), a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Draft space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for article space.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion under CSD G13. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it. You may request userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

If the deletion has already occured, instructions on how you may be able to retrieve it are available here.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 06:02, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sah Mal


The article Sah Mal has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "I am not sure there is enough here to warrant an article."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Slatersteven (talk) 10:15, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Articles for Creation July 2021 Backlog Elimination Drive
 Hello :

WikiProject Articles for creation is holding a  month long Backlog Drive!

The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running until 31 July 2021.

Barnstars will be given out as awards at the end of the drive.

There is currently a backlog of over articles, so start reviewing articles. We're looking forward to your help!

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of WikiProject Articles for Creation at 21:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC). If you do not wish to recieve future notification, please remove your name from the mailing list.