User talk:Mauriziok/Miss and Mister Supranational

Subject, title, and formatting of the page?
These are three somewhat related questions. First, subject: how do we handle Mister Supranational? This is a separate contest, but clearly related - run by the same organization, winners appear together all the time, judge each others contests, crown each others winners, etc. However it gets an order of magnitude less WP:RS press than Miss Supranational, and since a few experienced editors just might be skeptical of the Notability of Miss Supranational, I don't want Mister Supranational to stand alone, since it's much more vulnerable to a well placed WP:AFD. So I think it should just be a section of this page. But this should be discussed. Among other things, do we want one infobox for Miss Supranational and another for Mister Supranational? There isn't a lot of info in either, though there'll probably be a logo when this goes to main space (can't use fair use images outside main space). Just one for World Beauty Associates?

Second, title: if we do keep Mister Suprananational here, should we title this page Miss and Mister Supranational? (Miss first because it precedes in three ways: alphabetically, chronologically, and in order of notability as above.) Or should we keep it Miss Supranational since that is the main subject, and to parallel the other beauty pageant articles, Miss World, Miss Universe, Miss International and Miss Earth?

Finally, formatting: those four international beauty pageant articles are full of tables - they've got more tables than a woodworking shop. So did the two previous versions of this page, actually. Most of the content of the current "pageants" sections will fit in tables, but not all, there is noticeable information that doesn't fit and that I don't want to leave out, such as that Monika Lewczuk won the prize in the city of her birth, or that Jenny Kim got congratulated for bringing South Korea its first major international beauty pageant victory, or, relatedly, that Valeria Vázquez Latorre got feted by the Puerto Rican government for completing the set of 5 major international beauty pageant victories. I guess there could be a "Notes" column in the table for that, though.

What do people think? --GRuban (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Berchanhimez at Template:Did you know nominations/Miss and Mister Supranational prefers the table. So be it! --GRuban (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I do - I think that the current two tables are probably all that's needed. Keep in mind that there's no harm in separating "notes" and "references" if it gets too unwieldy - have the notes such as "this year, the winner was born in the city the contest was held in" or something, then have the references in a separate column if you so desire. The current notes is fine though if you want to leave it that way. I also don't know that the mens' competition has enough for an article on its own, so I think the title is fine as is. If it were a "sister competition" or like "additional feature" to the womens', I could see naming it Miss Supranational, but it appears at least to me that it's a completely separate competition that just so happens to be ran by the same people, same dates, etc. One question you could ask (or look for in reliable sources) - does each competition have separate press credentialing, separate ticketing, etc, or is one ticket/credential (or similar) sufficient to get into both. If one ticket gets both, then it suggests they may be part of the same event, but that doesn't guarantee that they should be named under "Miss Supranational" only with a subsection. Hopefully this helps. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Ready for review
Hi folks.
 * User:RoySmith is an experienced administrator who deleted Miss Supranational some years ago, and was kind enough to restore it to my user space when I said I would be interested in fixing it. User talk:RoySmith I'm afraid I haven't taken much advantage of the restoration, since, well, it was pretty horrible, both previous versions, only one or two references each, and not very good ones. So I've been working in this space instead, with (I hope!) better results. Certainly more refs! Anyway, Roy said he would be willing to take a look if pinged. This is that.
 * User:WilliamJE is also an experienced user, though not an administrator, who warned me against recreating the article in that discussion on Roy's page. I offered him a friendly wager on whether it would survive AfD after I recreated it with some work, which ... I'm afraid he ducked. OK, no wager. I'd still be interested to hear William's opinions, though.
 * User:I Nyoman Gede Anila is an inexperienced user, but one with a great deal of interest in our articles about beauty pageants. Pretty much all I know about beauty pageants I learned from working on this article just now. (I think I've written one much shorter article about a beauty pageant winner - that one also a rescue from deletion, oddly enough!) So maybe he'll be able to give me some useful advice.

Comments from any of you on any part of this draft article, but especially on the three questions I ask in the section immediately above, are very welcome. Thank you! --GRuban (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't know much about beauty pageants, so I'll just make some general comments. The first thing that caught my eye was the large number of redlinks.  Please see WP:RED, where it says, In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a title that could plausibly sustain an article.  My other comment is that much of this seems like trivia, but that may just be that this isn't a topic I'm interested in.  It certainly has plenty of references.  I spot-checked a couple and didn't see any that raised any obvious red flags about not being WP:RS.  I hope this was of some value. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was, thank you! Honestly, I could probably have squeezed out a Notability-meeting article on maybe half of the red links, but I don't know which ones until I start. But following your comments I decided to reduce them a lot, leaving in the ones for the winners and the contests, which seem most likely to qualify for articles, removing the ones for the runners-up. It's a very rough cull, of course, since most of the potential notability will come from what they do after the contest, and maybe half of them will have become notable television reporters, actresses, or models, but that doesn't correlate very closely with winning or not. I haven't written any other pageant articles either, so I'm looking at this as an article about a sport, maybe something like U.S. Figure Skating Championships, where 90% of the content is going to be pretty formulaic, and who won, when, and from where is usually the only important thing. It's pretty rare that someone gets kneecapped. Sources: well there are a few from the organization itself, but I was surprised how many completely unconnected newspapers there are that will regularly write not very long, but non trivial articles, several paragraphs, and of course lots and lots of pictures, about their national pageant contestants. Between the mass of them, I hope they will be enough to have the subject pass WP:N. You agree? I'm waiting to read what William writes, of course. --GRuban (talk) 20:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * After more searching, removed more red links unlikely to become articles. Diego Garcy and Nate Crnkovich are possibilities that just might make WP:N, so leaving them red. Stephi Stegman definitely can (leaving it a cross-wiki redirect until ready). Valeria Vázquez and Anntonia Porsild are more debatable, so might stay cross-wiki articles for a while. --GRuban (talk) 13:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, folks. After deciding that I wasn't going to get any more comments on this article as a draft in my user space, and moving this article to main space, I only now notice that you have all been working on Draft:Miss Supranational, so might have useful comments here! Please do give any comments, or feel free to improve the article in main space, it's a wiki. Gene93k rejected the draft as so ... I hope you like this one better? If not, I guess you might join WilliamJE in mounting an AfD. My defense will be as below. --GRuban (talk) 14:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Notability argument
User:WilliamJE hasn't responded yet, but back in User talk:RoySmith, he wrote "This topic and all its progeny have been deemed not notable on more than one occasion at AFD. The SALT should stand and if it is ever removed and the article re-created, I will send it back to AFD again if not nominate it for speedy deletion." So until he says he's changed his mind, it's probably safest to assume he's going to do that. I'm going to marshal my arguments for the Notability of this topic here. --GRuban (talk) 19:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Miss Supranational (2nd nomination) was back in August 2014. At that time, the contest had only been run 4 times. It has gone on for 6 more contests, more than double that, and has since grown to include Mister Supranational.
 * At the time of that AfD, the article looked like this: 3 references (two forums and one primary source), and 5 external links from 3 sources, 4 about the 2011 contest, all pretty short, from Europe and Asia. And all the last were mostly about 3 individual contestants rather than about the pageant as a whole. The current version has 78 references, evenly distributed among the contests, from ... probably 50 different sources ... no forums, minimal primary sources, easily 20 countries and six continents, and most are substantial, multi-paragraph articles, from independent mainstream newspapers, about different contestants, and contests and franchises. That easily meets WP:GNG: "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".


 * I remain unconvinced. I note that neither the French nor German nor Spanish WPs have an article, now the Dutch or any the scandiavians. I'd be concerned if  our standards  for promotional  articles on popular culture articles like these have become lower than our peers. DGG ( talk ) 10:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We are the largest Wikipedia, so by definition we are going to have articles that our peers do not. And it does exist in 8 of them. The most important part is that this topic clearly meets WP:GNG. I know you don't believe in the GNG, so that's not going to convince you. I guess I'll have to convince your audience. --GRuban (talk) 22:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I see a parallel to NFILM and NCORP here. We don't always judge films with notable actors or filmmakers to be notable. We don't always judge business ventures by notable businesspeople to be notable. Pageants should be held to the same standard. So the problem I see with these sources is that they are a smorgasbord of short items about individual contestants, not a bunch of in-depth coverage about the purported subject that we'd apply to the other entities I mentioned. in your opinion, what are the best three sources about Supranational here? I'm struggling to identify even one good one. ☆ Bri (talk) 02:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. If these winners were already notable for reasons unconnected with this contest, I could agree with that - if all the articles were about "Jane Jones, the great beauty, also adds Miss Supranational to her long list of prizes", then I could see the argument that the sources were about Jane Jones, not about Miss Supranational; the source would not have been written if it weren't about Jane Jones. But they're actually all about the title, Miss Supranational, and Jane Jones is just this year's winner. If Sally Smith had won it, the source would still have been written, just with her details. And if Jane Jones didn't win it, then the sources would not have been written about her, and we wouldn't have an article about her. It's more like an elected office, where the articles are written about the person in the office, but the reason for that is that they're the person in the office. Compare it to List of United States senators from New Hampshire for example - all the sources are about the individual senators, not about Senator from New Hampshire, but most of those people are mainly notable for being the Senator from New Hampshire; if a different person had been the senator in their place, the notability would have gone to that person. Here are some of the sources that make that quite clear that they're about the contest, not about the person:
 * "Crowned in time of 'corona': Miss Supranational Ecuador picked via online pageant" Yes, in theory it's about one specific contestant, but in practice it's about how the contest picked that contestant, the name of the winner is not in the title, and if it had been a different name, the article would have been much the same. Also note that this is an article from the Philippines, about the contestant from Ecuador. They're rather far apart. This is not a "local boy (er, girl) makes good" story.
 * "Nowa Miss Supranational 2009" - the winner is mentioned once. The article is about the contest. This is from Poland.
 * "Venezuela ganó el Miss Supranational 2014" - likewise, winner mentioned once, article about contest. This is from Venezuela.
 * "Miss Supranational had feeling she’d go home with the crown" - From the Philippines; this one does have a fair bit about the person, not just the contest, but emphasizes the contest, in my opinion - you'll see the contest is in the title, she isn't, it writes about how she's the first Asian to win the contest, presumably it would similarly write about another person who would have been that.
 * That said, here are sources that are coverage of the contest without being at all about individual contestants in it.
 * "Here's everything we know about the Miss Supranational pageant"
 * "Gerhard Parzutka Von Lipinski speaks about his visit to India" - hopefully you'll accept that he's only being interviewed due to being the head of the contest? Not about how interesting he is as a person, how well he raises his kids, and how snappy he is at dressing?
 * "Mr and Miss Supranational 2020 pageants postponed"
 * "Miss World PH organization acquires Miss Supranational franchise"
 * "Fil-Am modeling director is new Miss Supranational U.S. franchise owner"
 * Again, note how far apart these sources are: South Africa, India, and the Philippines, and Venezuela in the section above that. This is while the contest itself is in Poland. This isn't just notability, but world wide notability. It's going to be hard to find articles from South Africa and India and the Philippines and Venezuela about the senatorial election in New Hampshire, and yet we have 17 real articles in Category:United States Senate elections in New Hampshire and a whole bunch of section links. --GRuban (talk) 14:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... see above in great detail. Most of the talk page is concerned with the details. Did I say great? Amazing, enormous. Bigly! - to coin a phrase. It's got 94 references, almost all of which are since the AFD in question. The concept of nominating it for speedy is ludicrous. It's a completely new article, and clearly meets WP:GNG. --GRuban (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)