User talk:Max Naylor/Archive3

Much against my will
I couldn't resist the temptation of tampering with your truly excellent start on Icelandic grammar. I don't have the time for this, but an urge is an urge. If you have any objections, don't hesitate to voice them. I will be araound, perhaps not actively participating, but at least observing. A question: Do you have a vision in your mind about providing a complete grammar? That would be an enormous task, but then again, Wikipedia is also about patience.

Cheers Io 18:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL, thanks for your “urge”. I’m not sure about providing a complete grammar—obviously that would be ideal—but I’ll surely be contributing to the article as I learn more about the language. As a non-Icelander and novice speaker of the language, I am limited by my basic knowledge. It is nice to see some input from a native Icelander—please, keep up the good work! Max Naylor 18:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Max. But as I said, much against my will. But if "we" (and hopefully others) do something, we have to be aware of all the declension classes (you know them), weak conjugation classes (4 + exceptions), strong verbs (6 + exceptions), reduplication verbs (6-7 classes with exceptions of their own), adjectives, a couple of dozen (+ exceptions) and then a listing of pronouns and numerals. Not to forget the article, how it is used. Then the prepositions which are traditionally one of the most difflicult aspect of any language. And the syntax, how are cases governed, etc?


 * Are you shaking in your boots? I am. Cheers Io 20:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW, I admire your first conjugation table. Since you're good at it, could you come up with a template for a complete conjugation, including person, number, mood and tense? The rest of us might then fill in. Cheers Io 20:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If I have a minute, I’ll see what I can do. I’ve got to finish reading by Colloquial Icelandic book yet! Max Naylor 20:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * How about a limited cooperation? I have my hands full with work, but this article is dear to my heart. In fact, I recognise passages of my own, though years have passed. In a way that is, perhaps, not the way to become immortal, but at least some of my work stands unaltered. :-) Cheers Io 21:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * See also the article about Old Norse. The text example there is mine (after quite a bit of research), and no one has seen a reason to mess it up. I may be an idiot, but such are the things that make one - well, if not proud - then at least it gives them the feeling, that they have not lived in vain. :-) Cheers and all the best Io 21:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking at it again, I think the opening paragraph in Morphology is mostly mine too. We have been cooperating. Let's keep it up. In this one instance I'll be a Marxist: To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities. Or was it the other way around? Cheers Io 21:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

To make it easier
Since the dative and genitive plural are always (or almost) the same for all genders regarding pronouns and adjectives, shouldn't there be a template to show that,i.e., one line across 3 columns? It would help dispell some myths and make the language more transparent. God knows there are worse languages than Icelandic, but since I have studied the subject in some detail, Icelandic does have it peculiarities, and although I wrote someplace, that the grammatical systems of Icelandic and German are virtually identical (I stand by that), Icelandic has so many more inflections and conjugations (all with exceptions and exceptions to exceptions, everything explained by the word unless (a useful word)) that every little bit of simplification might help. I think that you might want cooperation (probably), but on what terms? I suggest you create templates and do your bit, but you should tell me, where I'm useful. Cheers Io 15:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Iceland - writing the June Newsletter
I have started the June Newsletter of the project. Please fill free to change and contribute to it. I am sure there can be more and better placed things there. --Michkalas 23:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good, I can’t see anything that you’ve missed out. Perhaps we could find a way to automatically place this on member’s userpages, do other WikiProjects have a way of doing this do you think? Max Naylor 09:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, as Icelandic language is still up for ACID, I have added that in also. Max Naylor 09:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As you can see here, in WikiProject Greece it is seems to be done manually by Yannismarou -and this project has double WikiProject's Iceland membership. --Michkalas 18:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but this would be a more efficient way to do it, IMO. I have already made a bot request. Max Naylor 20:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you like this sent out? I can send it out approximately now or at around 08:00 UTC? E  talk 20:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if you would like. Max Naylor 20:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Newsletters are being distributed as we speak. E  talk 20:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, the bot appears to be up and running, erm, it's redistributing May’s newsletters for some reason, but it will do June’s on the 1st. Max Naylor 21:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, next one is June on 1st June. E  talk 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is it redistibuting May’s newsletter? Max Naylor 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because I have inputted the variable in and it is still May. I have stopped the bot and will run on your next command.  E  talk 21:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I‘m sorry I thought you meant it to distribute the June newsletter. I’m sorry for any confusion. You’re OK to go ahead and run it on the 1st. Max Naylor
 * No thats fine. I'll run it again on the 1st at 8:00 UTC. E  talk 21:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate. Max Naylor 21:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that such a bot existed! Very good idea (the double distribution of the May issue is not a major problem). --Michkalas 10:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Newsletter for June has been delivered. E  talk 06:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Iceland Newsletter
// ENewsBot (talk) on behalf of Max Naylor 21:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

M40 article
Your excellent M40 icon seems to have disappeared from the infobox at the top of the M40 article. Are you able to restore it? Dormskirk 10:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I’m not sure why it’s doing this; there seems to be a problem with some of the other ones, too. I’ll have to look into it. Max Naylor 14:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * They should be fixed... I asked at commons, and I got a reply telling me to "change the width to 151px", and it worked, at least for M62 (which, incidentally, is now a good article!). Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 16:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

History Icelandic language
Hello max,

Im the geez who translated that page for you. Any more? My italian is pretty good and my french is alright. I like the bit at the end with the young people's language in particular.
 * Thanks very much for the translation; if anything else shows up I’ll be sure to let you know. Have you created an account yet? This would be a good idea. Keep up the good work!

A call for templates
Hi! I know have your hands full, but let me reiterate my request for templates to fill in. You're good at it, I'm not. You might store them, wherever you please, for instance right here. I took the liberty of correcting your verb classification. If you read your book, you'll see that it is the third person that dominates. Being a conservative regarding languages, I would also like to classify the declension and conjugation classes historically. I'd like to hear your opinion of that. All the best Io 19:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * PS If you have time and money to spare, you might search for Íslenzk málfræði (or Íslensk málfræði depending on the edition) by Halldór Halldórsson, which is the best historical grammar of Icelandic I've yet to see. You might also search for Isländische Grammatik by Bruno Kress. The latter one is probably the most thorough work on modern Icelandic in existence, and it does cover the syntax extensively. Cheers Io 19:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Language proficiency
Would you do me the favour and look at my user page and tell me, whether I've overestimated my language skills? I'm not quite sure what is required for each level, but an unbiased eye would be appreciated. You can start with my estimation of English and extrapolate from there. Thanks in advance Io 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the criticism. I am arrogant - it's one of the flaws I'm all too aware of, so I'm not swearing under my breath in any language. :-) The sentence about other 'philes was written tongue-in-cheek, but I wasn't aware of its being non-standard. So you're right. I might follow your recommendation or downgrade myself to 4, if I'm feeling humble the next time I do something with my user page. Anyway, thanks. I asked for a constructive criticism and I got it. All the best Io 14:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * PS Since I rate my German at about the same level as my English, I'll let the 5 stand there as well. I have had a look at the German article you pointed out to me. The main obstacle is its length, but I could certainly translate it, time permitting. Then somebody would have to polish it. I did downgrade my Norwegian, since my knowledge of that language and Swedish is limited to reading and listening comprehension. When talking to Norwegians and Swedes, I answer in Danish, and it works quite well. Cheers Io 14:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the interest in the German article. I’d be more than happy to polish it once you’ve finished, to make the prose flow and so forth. Max Naylor 15:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Do we have a deadline or is it just at the earliest convenience? I'm not feeling up to it just now, for example, rough day at work and all that. Cheers Io 18:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I foresee being hung over and bored with life next Sunday, so I might ease the pain of living by taking a serious look at the German article. No promises, but if I do translate it, and it is certainly less than a day's work, where do I put the translation? About coming across as arrogant (no, I'm not complaining, I'm relatively thick-skinned), the thought occurred to me that it might be a part of the national character. Icelanders are noted for most things other than humility, as your experience with Wikipedia will probably have shown you. But part of it is certainly just me. I also have a somewhat dubious temper and other flaws too numerous to mention. I try to keep them in check, but those in total control of themselves are few and far between. And what's sauce for the goose isn't necessarily so for the gander (since you mentioned a British outlook). :-) All the best Io 19:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Bless you, Io. LOL. Thanks for the offer of translation, and really, there’s no need to apologise so much. Max Naylor 22:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Double identity
I have asked another user, but not got an answer, how you go about establishing an alter ego to your already existing alter ego on Wikipedia, i.e., how you set about having two accounts at the same time. This practise is ususally frowned upon, but I remember reading something about an exception, which would be acceptable, for instance if you have something to contribute in fields so dissimilar, that your contributions in both fields would give you away. An example would be someone who is an expert in Peruvian tapestry but also in Sumerian. He or she would be immediately recognizable to her/his environment. So, how do you set up a second account, and operate as one or the other depending on the subject? Or is this now forbidden? Cheers Io 20:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: As an example, I would like to be able to write something like


 * $$\int_{0}^{1} x^{-x}\, dx=\sum_{n=1}^\infty n^{-n}$$


 * without being recognized. This particular formula, by the way, goes by the name of The Sophomore's Dream, and by looking at it, you'll see why. It is truly beautiful. And, since I've been bombarding you this evening, I'll make this the last entry for tonight. Sorry, no harrassment or persecution intended. :-) Cheers Io 21:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Iceland Newsletter
Delivered by ENewsBot (talk) 06:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Enginn
I would appreciate your thoughts about my latest contribution to Icelandic. The policy I had in mind was:
 * Let the dative and genitive plural span across the table, if it helps making things clearer (as in the case of adjectives and some pronouns).
 * Using the top-left cell (often empty) for didactic purposes, if possible, as you have already done.
 * Be as complete as possible - hence the proliferation of forms.

But I think I'm beginning to remember the details of templates, so from now on things should get easier for me. (Don't worry, the experts have forgotten more about the intricacies of Wikipedia than I'll ever learn. :-) Cheerio Io 15:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you can see a more logical way of structuring the tables, I have no objections. Max Naylor 19:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no really superior way of structuring the tables, but I would follow the policy of condensing where you can. See weak adjectives for an example. Cheers Io 19:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Icelandic keyboard
What is there is correct. What you lack are certain combinations (marked on my key board, for instance), like AltGR+7 gives you {.

All in all, it is correct, but some information which is usually marked on the keyboard is lacking.
 * PS Take a look at the Icelandic article. Are we in agreement where it is headed? Cheers Io 19:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. :D Max Naylor 19:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Brittle Brit
Never take anything I say personally or otherwise antagonistically. At the keyboard I am mostly in control, not the other me. I'm trying to establish a cooperation, which is a goal I know you heartily agree with. But I do have tendency to, well, let's quote a friend of mine, who has lived in America for years, you says it as you sees it. There is seldom any insult meant, and when there is, it is put in terms that leave no doubt. BTW, I think the heading for this was rather well worded. (Now I'm thumping my chest.) :-) Cheers Io 19:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * PS You're allowed to poke fun at me much as you like. Cheers Io
 * LOL, I’m not offended or anything. Don’t worry about it. I was just making an observation, now I’m thinking maybe it was inaccurate. It’s all good in the ’hood. Max Naylor 20:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Need help?
I hope you're doing okay mate. Remember, if there is anything you need translated just let me know. --S.Örvarr.S 02:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Does this include Wikipedia pages, because if so, I have a proposal. Max Naylor 08:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

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 * Oh, thank you. I have integrated this into the non-free image use rationale template. Max Naylor 09:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Dropping a line
I do own a microphone but it's crap so I'll just buy one sometime this week. Icelandic, a hard language? pffff. --S.Örvarr.S 02:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, what's an .ogg file format and how do you make/play them. I've been trying to listen to audio files on some Wikipedias and they never play. I've tried Windows Media Player, RealPlayer and iTunes but the little buggers just won't play. --S.Örvarr.S 03:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay I downloaded a plug-in that I needed to play .oggs and I also listened to your pronunciation of the Icelandic words. You weren't "really" that far off.. just a bit. I'll show you:

So all in all, not perfect but practise makes perfect eh? I'm sure you can find some material on the www with examples and so on, to get it. That is to say if you're interested. Do you need a special programme to record .oggs? How did you do it? --S.Örvarr.S 06:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The way I corrected your pronunciation was according to Northern Icelandic pronunciation (my pronunciaction). The Southern is a bit different but I think it's crap... just like president Bush and Apple computers... lol. c ya around. --S.Örvarr.S 06:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL, OK. There’s a free recording programme called Audacity that you can download from here. It lets you save in OGG format. Unfortunately, about the only language it doesn’t come in is Icelandic, so you’ll have to use the English version. Max Naylor 09:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Do I "have" to use the English version? --S.Örvarr.S 02:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course not, LOL. Max Naylor 12:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've bought the microphone and installed the programme so either today or sometime tomorrow I'll make records of the words. Should it be, English word first then the Icelandic, like you did it? --S.Örvarr.S 12:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that would be fine. Now I get to hear your English! LOL. Max Naylor 13:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was thinking about doing some Cockney. Blimey! And if yew don't like i' yew can just bombay duck yaaahrself! Nuff said, yeah? --S.Örvarr.S 17:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Carmit armit. Max Naylor 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Good job, but ...
I agree with you, that we are moving in the right direction. However, to present a proper grammar, a bit of surgery is required. For instance, we mention adjectives, throw in an example and that's it. It ideally should begin with an account of which classes there are, and then move on to giving examples from each of them and explaining (if possible) how they are to be recognized. The same goes, of course, for the other word classes. So, my friend, I think we have a long way ahead. But in any case, I have almost mastered the templates, so that should at least help me. The bit I'm worried about is the syntax. You can give inflection tables and be done with it, but syntax requires some serious writing.:-) Io 14:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, however I’m not sure how able I will be to contribute to the article any further; I don’t think I have sufficient knowledge of the language, e.g. of classes, complex grammar and so forth. Of course, I will stick around the article, update formatting, spelling and grammar of the actual text itself, and help out where I can. I feel, however, that the article has come to a crossroads where it would be better of with a series of native Icelanders—or at least more experienced speakers—to take the article further. Going forward, I feel that this is the best plan of action. I will request a peer review for the article and take it from there. Max Naylor 14:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Icelandic Keyboard Layout
I'm adding a short list of handy combinations:

AltGr+5: €

AltGr+7: {

AltGr+8: [

AltGr+9: ]

AltGr+0: }

AltGr++ SPACE: ` (Backtick)

AltGr+?: ~

AltGr+´: ^

AltGr+<: |

For Umlauts you can always use:

SHIFT+¨+vowel. For instance

SHIFT+¨y gives ÿ. The same key gives access to the ° over vowel, at least the Danish å. Simply

°+a becomes å.

I'm not sure this works for all vowels, but the umlaut apparently does. Cheers Io 15:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If you (for what reason I can't imagine) you should want the acute accent on its own, then

´+SPACE gives: ´ (Well, I probably provided an example, but only for demonstrative purposes.)

For the grave accent you type:

AltGr++vowel and get: è (in this instance). (Press AltGr and + at the same time, then the vowel.)

The circumflex (^) is absent from the picture you sent me, but on Icelandic keyboards it is to be found on the next key to the right of Æ, i.e. the one in the picture marked with ´ (accute accent).

I'll let that suffice for nov (or, if we want English to have a conjunctive, suffice it to say :-)) but I shall explore the keyboard possibilities and send you the results - all in good time, of course. :-) Cheers Io 13:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Werever two plus sign coincide, it means that the first and second key are to be pressed simultaniously, the second plus means what follows. I hope this helps Io 13:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

PS: If anybody says anything negative about the English alphabet, I shall scold the culprit. The English alphabet consists of 22 letters, all of which are present on any latinate keyboard, leaving other languages with a wide choice of opportunities for their special needs. :-) Io 13:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are 26 letters. :) Max Naylor 13:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Neutral nouns
I changed it to a more correct statement. I sat for a few minutes and the only examples I could think of (i,e. ending in a broad vowel) were feminine. Also, the ending -ur applies to very many words. I counted them once, and came up with about 200 neuters ending in -ur. We have to clarify that bit. Cheers Io 17:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Pronuciation
As I saw from a previous discussion with Örvar (accusative, hence the single r :-)), one can listen to your pronunciation. I've installed Audacity, but how do I go about listening to your voice files? Cheers Io 13:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

PS: Can one contact you per mail? There is much to this discussion, and in fact every discussion I've had with you, that I've wished not to be anonymous anymore, but still keeping it out of the common reach. All the best Io 13:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be fine. My address is on my userpage. Max Naylor 13:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Being an idiot ...
where, on your user page, is the address to be found? All the best Io 15:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL, in my userboxes. I’ll give it to you here for your convenience: [mailto:macinbot@yahoo.co.uk macinbot@yahoo.co.uk]. There you go! Max Naylor 15:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

North Sea
Good call on the translation request! See ya. Samsara (talk • contribs) 20:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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Article discussion
I made another killer-comment on that article talk page.

You might be interested in this. I wrote all the (little there is) material about the Icelandic langague. Cheers. --S.Örvarr.S 05:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Eats, Shoots and Leaves
That, apparently, is the behaviour of the panda. On closer inspection, the panda eats shoots and leaves. This gentle creatue is evidently not a gunslinger. I'm reading it now, and it has been a long time, since I've had so much fun with the English language. You probably know about the book, but if you have not read it, do so. It's a, shall we say, "blast". Cheers Io 15:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have my own copy. :D. Makes great toilet reading. Max Naylor 16:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

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