User talk:Max Naylor/Archive4

Learning materials
Just out of curiosity, which books are you using? I have feeling you're reading Daisy Neimann, which is apparently highly recommended, but you probably need a proper grammar - preferably historical as well as modern- to satisfy your needs. If you wish, I can investigate what's out there on your behalf. All the best Io 12:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I’m using Colloquial Icelandic by Daisy Neijmann. I would appreciate you finding some more materials for me to use; I’m starting to find the book rather limiting in some areas and just utterly confusing in others. Thank you! Oh, erm... I mean... þakka þér fyrir. :D Max Naylor
 * PS: The best books are in Icelandic, Danish and German. If you have no knowledge of these languages, then you have no use for them, but there is an old book, still usable, in English, namely Icelandic: Grammar, Text and Glossary by Stefan Einarsson (Paperback - Dec 31, 2000), which is to be found in the American Amazon. The British Amazon also has the book, but only used. The American version is pristine and costs 30 USD. If you have that much to spare, I recommend it. I just ordered a copy for myself. Another book, which might incite your interest is Early Germanic Grammar: Pre-, Proto- and Post-Germanic Languages by Joseph B. Voyles.I own a copy and it is magnificent except for the typography. And we landed in an edit conflict, but that is what I wanted to say: All the best Io 12:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I’ve bookmarked the page, and when the required cash arrives, I’ll definitely consider getting a copy (though I’m not sure how I’ll pay for it, I don’t know if my card will be accepted on the US site). Max Naylor 15:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking on the UK site now, new copies are available. Here’s the link. Max Naylor 15:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * My copy arrived today. Just having a glance at it, I'd say it is not for the faint of heart. Just summarizing the nouns, we have 79 tabularized paradigms in all plus a compact account of exceptions to those 79. (And Stefán apparently did not believe in wasting words.) Plus, since the book was written in 1942, well, let's say I had forgotten what has changed. Not a great deal, really, but still very noticable. If you were to learn Icelandic from this book only, you'd sound quaintly old-fashioned, although, I think, not in a bad way. Also, the spelling has changed. But as a grammatical reference it is probably still the best in English. (Bruno Kress is better, I think, but he wrote in German, and I doubt he's available anymore.) The chapter on syntax is of the "old school", where you actually know, what the author is saying, and that part hasn't changed that much. The book might even be worth the price just because of the syntax. The readings are extensive and the word lists following are detailed (meantioning, e.g., things like to which inflection class a word belongs, which case a preposition governs and the like). The glossary at the end is about 200 pages, but is of course not a substitute for a proper dictionary. But it does give the characteristic forms of each word, and is, all in all, pretty good for its limited size. The phonetic spelling conforms to the IPA of 1942. It is easily understandable, if you understand IPA today. And thus concludes the review. All in all, recommended. Cheers Io 16:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * PS Actually two things. Why should I want this book? Answer: Collector's compulsion. Another thing is that Stefán considers English to possess a subjunctive (which it does, but rather rarely, at in "suffice it to say" etc.) and three cases, which it actually does, but only in a few pronouns. But still, he uses it to draw quite useful parallels, and stresses the similarities, where they exist. (I'm skimming the syntax now.) Another thing is, however, that he could have been more careful in his choice of examples. By that I mean, that he invariably uses the masculine third pronoun, so when he says "this is the accusative" you'll have to take it on faith. He's right, of course, but using the feminine pronoun would have been a happier choice, since it actually differs in the nominative and accusative, but the masculine form does not. OK, you're tired of my ramblings, but, make it me a freak if it must (now there's an English subjunctive for you :-), I enjoy reading this stuff. Cheers Io 18:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought that English subjunctives are “if it were different” and things like that. Anyway... is the book of any use to us in our article? Max Naylor 18:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a subjunctive, but in phrases like I wrote above the verb should be analyzed as subjunctive (reference to the third person without an -s denoting possibility, hope and several other things). It is of use (for you, I have the same information in other books) as a fountain of inflection and syntax (perhaps the most difficult part, but there it is, and someday someone will have to write about it). Should you decide to aquire the book (recommended), be aware, as already said that some of it is dated. I noticed just now that he uses the honorific pronouns as if they were in daily use. Now it is only seen in poetry and the occasional elevated speech. But there is an enourmous amount of (condensed) information there which you don't see in the Colloquial series. You get, if I may borrow an inappropriate phrase, "The Full Monty". And the declensions have not altered a bit (or hardly), and there they are, 79 noun paradigms, I don't know how many paradigms of other word classes, but his treatment of conjugation is at least very concise and complete. And, as I mentioned, the syntax still remains unaltered. (OK, there may be some archaic constructions in there, but none that I could not use in my speech, given the circumstances.) Anyway, recommended again. Cheers Io 19:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * PS The phrase "make it me a freak" may be a bit unusual in English, but (correct me if I'm wrong), it should be grammatically correct, and if I were (another subjunctive:-) to say this in Icelandic, I would be compelled to use the subjunctive - there is no way to translate this literally without it. All the best Io 19:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of compiling a list of useful and expensive books, if you're serious about learning the language. Perhaps I should have made separate entry of this entitled, Do You Want to Be a Scholar?. Anyway here goes. As of yesterday the exchange ratio was 123-124 krónur to the pound. I'll use 124 in what follows.

1) Sören Sörenson: Ensk-íslensk orðabók með alfræðilegu ívafi. Full price: 17.790 ISK, about £144. (Very thourough, large vocabulary, the very best as of now.) The price is horrendous, but there is nothing comparable to it anywhere.

2) Ásgeir Blöndal Magnússon: Íslensk orðsifjabók. Probably about 8.000-10.000 ISK, about £81, using the 10.000 ISK. (Etymology - the current bible in its field, very thorough, but in Icelandic only.)

3) Sverrir Hólmarsson: Íslensk-ensk orðabók. Price: 5.155 ISK, about £42. I don't know how large the vocabulary is, but it is 536 pages, according to a web-search.

4) Stefán Einarsson: Icelandic - Grammar, text, glossary. (Recommended, £30 from Amazon.)

These are probably the best books the field. Actually, I'm certain about Sören Sörensson and Ásgeir Blöndal. The other two are very educated guesses.

Save up for them - if you're serious, they'll pay for themselves. (I know your'e a hard-up student, but still, those are the best.)

Cheerio Io 21:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. To qualify things a bit, I own Ásgeir Blöndal and Stefán Einarsson. I happen to know, that Ásgeir has no competitor, since the last serious Icelandic etymological dictionary was Alexander Jóhannesson's Isländisches etymologisches Wörterbuch from 1956. But still, even if it is the only one (at least in Icelandic), it is deserving of its "bible" status. I like Stefán Einarsson's book a lot, although he is describing the language anno 1942. But that recommendation is an educated guess, since I don't have a complete overview of what is available in English. Sören Sörensson's English-Icelandic dictionary is definitely the best of its kind. Although I don't own it, and there are other dictionaries out there, I have seen and leafed through the book many a times and oft, and there is no competition, except the price. The "iffiest" recommendation is Sverrir Hólmarsson. I've never seen that book, but heard good things about it. That part, an Icelandic-English dictionary, could possibly stand a little bit of more research - I don't know exactly how many there are, but his is probably the most thorough, and the price seems reasonable. Let's face it: Good books (excluding things like the Colloquial or Teach Yourself series, which are invariably very limited) in such a specialized field are bound to be on the expensive side. Cheerio Io 16:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The order of things
Should we, perhaps, concentrate on speficic wordclasses? Meaning, we finish, for instance, the pronouns, and the turn to the more difficult ones? Input would be welcome. Cheers 13:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes; this would seem a logical progression. I think we need to finish laying the metaphorical groundwork and then we can flesh out the article with the intricacies and peculiarities. Max Naylor

This the first time I've left a message in this context. Anyway, always try somethin new!

I'll keep on looking for materials for you, but I believe I have found what there is. What you don't have is Joseph Voyles, and for the rest I'd be happy to go to the University Bookshop and find appropriate books. All the best Io 15:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

formal?
I noticed your changes on the "Icelandic language" article. You wrote FORMAL to "How are you." Why is that? It is not formal nor informal, just normal. I think you should consult with me or some other native before you make changes like that to the article. --S.Örvarr.S 18:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn’t make that change, it was there already. I added “what is your name?”. Max Naylor 19:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * oh okay.. I must have skipped a line on the page's history thingy. --S.Örvarr.S 19:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Your RfA
I have added an optional question, as has Black Harry. You may wish to answer them. - G  1  ggy  Talk/Contribs 22:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry about not notifying you, didn't realize I should have.  BH  (T|C) (Go Red Sox!) 00:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Max Naylor 07:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Annoying bug
Fuck! Look at my user page... there are like 20 links in the language bar... but there should only be one... íslenska.... there's a bug I think in the template "user blank". I am too lazy to sort it out myself but if you wanna proof that you'll make a good admin then you sort it out. --S.Örvarr.S 02:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Takk
You deserve it, my friend. I have a project of my own going on now, regarding my further education (statistics), but what do you say about the - perhaps - rusty translation I sent you. Shall I continue? All the best Io 18:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Verbs - and other things
I think the best you could do right now would be to come up with a conjgation template. Come on, you're good at it, and it can't be that hard. As for templates for nouns, pronouns etc., they are already in place. What I am curious about is what you think about the continuation. A few examples:


 * Which classification system should we use for nouns and adjectives?
 * It does no good spreading effort all over the place, so, which do you think should come first? Finish nouns? Pronouns? Etc.
 * Shouldn't the verbs come last in the morphology section, since they are the hardest by a long shot?
 * If we finish a word class, how many paradigms do you think would be appropriate? For instance, how do you treat words which can have different inflections, both equally valid?


 * Just some matter for thought. And yes, I am alive again, but I don't know how long that will last.

Cheers Io 18:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Norse history and culture
Given your edit history and your interest in Nordic linguistics, I thought you might be interested in joining this WikiProject. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ta for the invite. I thought I’d start off by making you a nice map. Max Naylor 20:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Here You Go
Thanks for the star. It's my first, and there probably won't be many, since I drop out of sight occasionally, and can't possibly compete with the really dedicated Wikipedians. But now - I'm close to tears. :-)

Which leaves, if we are to continue, as far as I am able, your answers to the list I left behind, i.e. what do you think is the best strategy? As I've said before, I'll be keeping an eye on things, but contributions are dependent on time and fatigue. I just finished a rather tricky report today, which was in a field new to me, so I'm pretty worn out. (As it happens, it was new to everybody else in my department, so I really can't be blamed for being a bit tired.) But I'm boasting again, a bad habit of mine on occasion - but why not give yourself a slap on the back, if you've done your best? In most other respects, I have the same regard for myself as the rest of humanity - practically zero. :-) (That was an example of an attempt at Icelandic humour - it probably wouldn't work in the UK.) But thanks again, and let's resume work at each other's convenience. Cheers Io 19:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A Managable Project
According to my old grammar, the complete list of Icelandic pronouns goes thus.

Personal: Ég, þú, hann/hún/það and for the obsolete honorific, vér, þér.

Reflexive: Sig.

Possessive: Minn, þinn, sinn, vor (the last one also almost obsolete).

Demonstrative: Sá, þessi, hinn.

Relative: Sem, er (both indeclinable).

Interrogative: Hver, hvor, hvaða, hvílíkur.

Indefinite: Einn, neinn, annar, nokkur, enginn, hver, einhver, sérhver, hvor, ýmis, allur, hvorugur, sumur, báðir (plural only), fáeinir.

Then there are a few "pronouns in two words", namely annar hvor, annar hver, annar tveggja, hvor tveggja.

We might have a discussion about how to classify that. To me, a pronoun is one word. Also, some of the above-mentioned pronouns might just as well be classified as adjectives. Discussion later. But here, at least, we have a managable word class. Why not finish that one? The beginnings are already there. Cheers Io 19:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Having just come home from a wedding, I'm not quite sober, but your ideas about the above would be most welcome. After all, one has to finish one (in this case, fairly easy) chapter before moving on to the next. What do you say? I'm serious about cooperating, if ever there was any doubt, but we both have other schedules to meet as well, so it might take some time. But this might be done quicker than most of the rest of the grammar. Then, perhaps the numerals (also naturally limited), adverbs and their comparison (equally so) and then we might take on the open classes. A chapter on the article would also have to be written - there is, of course, only one, but how it connects to nouns takes some writing. As probably said before, which paradigms and explanations to include requires some thinking. You are probably the most active participant in the project, so your input is essential. Are you still interested? All the best Io 00:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for adminship
On this occasion, your request for adminship was not successful. I hope that you will continue your valuable contributions to Wikipedia and may consider standing for adminship again in future. Remember, almost all those editors objecting are simply keen to see you gain some more experience in admin-related areas. Best wishes, Warofdreams talk 22:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about your nomination Max Naylor; I also hope you run again in the future. Good luck. Acalamari 00:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about your RFA. I was a strong support of you, and I can't wait to your nominated again. Good Luck, and don't take this hard. Not everyone gets adminship there first time! Politics rule 01:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support, guys. I really thought it was going to succeed this time. Third time lucky… eh? Max Naylor 06:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Third time's the charm. I hope that doesn't go for Nazi Germany. --Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson 23:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In an effort to solicit ideas
Happy solstice. :-) I can't continue without your input, and I suspect it is mutual. Let me hear your ideas. Cheerio Io 03:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I’m confused as to what exactly you’re asking me to do, there is much about pronouns already in the article and I don’t really understand the grammar enough to go any more in-depth. Max Naylor 16:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As I was a bit sozzled (is that a word, I seem to have heard it somewhere?) I left out that I meant continuing with the whole lot. Since my Wikipedia-grammar is more than a little rusty, that would include on your part coming up with a decent conjugation template. As for the pronouns, I take it that we agree on being as comprehensive as can be, and they tend to have inflections of their own in each case, so that would have to be filled in. The nouns and adjectives would also have to be classified. I'm sure Neijmann has separate paradigms for lítill and mikill, a list of adjectives and adverbs with irregular comparison etc. In any case, we can be comprehensive (all-embracing is probably too much to ask), and if you have a paradigm in front of you, you can fill in the blanks just as well as I. All the best Io 17:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sozzled is a word LOL, though sloshed is my drunken euphemism of choice. I’ll have a look over some of the declension paradigms in the book later, I was trying to avoid copying them directly; I don’t know if that counts as a copyright violation or whatever. I’ll do it anyway and see what comes of it. I’ll look inot making a conjugation template, but the one already in the article is relatively similar to the one in my book. Max Naylor 18:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Paradigms are free of copyright, that much I can tell you. The conjugation table I had in mind is more of the kind you'll probably find, if you consult your French grammar, i.e., a table with persons, numbers and so forth, all in a neat package. Those table will be larger than what there already is, but anyway, look into any serious grammar (regrettably not Neijmann), and you'll see what I mean. If you have a Latin grammar somewhere, you'll see it very clearly. Cheers Io 18:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

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An Idea
Just a question. If the Icelandic Grammar ever becomes something like publishable, do you think it would be a good idea to process the contents with LaTeX and deposit the result somewhere as a pdf-file for people to read, keep and - perchance - print out? I know LaTeX so that part would not be a problem. Or am I perhaps dreaming wildly about the project ever being finished for, well at least, pre-publication purposes? Anyway, the grammar team seems to consist of you and me, so I think we should take up a closer collaboration. Cheers Io 19:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Iceland
Hello there Max! This month's edition of the WikiProject Iceland newsletter must be created by July 1st to be delivered by ENewsBot. Please notify me if there will be no newsletter this month to stop the delivery. Kind regards, E  talk 10:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅: I’ve now made this month’s newsletter; it’s ready to go. Make sure you don’t forget our three new members, Nidator, Husond and Afalbrig. Thanks! Max Naylor 13:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a question. Do you have to subscribe or something, or is it enough to Be a proud member ... to get the newsletter? All the best Io 16:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Another question or, rather, request for speculation. I've littered your page with suggestions and ideas, some good, some awful, but could you find it in your heart to summarise, what you think is practicable and where the border should be drawn? You're a student with other occupations, I'm probably old enough to be your father, but I do have a good feeling about my suggested coöperation in this single field. Otherwise my interests are split pretty evenly between the humanities and the sciences. When I look at my desk beside me, I see a fair mix of everything except sociology and related fields. In short: You, as I see it, have the drive, I have the resources :-) Cheers Io 16:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have just implemented a new system, the spamlist. If you're on the list, you'll get the newsletter and if you aren't, you won't. If someone isn't there, feel free to add them and also if you aren't a member of WP:ICE, you can simply add yourself to the guests section. E  talk 20:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am a member, but the question was mostly directed at Max. But thanks anyway. Cheers Io 14:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * PS If my reply was a little cold, I apologise. But we are using another user's page here. Cheers Io 14:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

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WikiProject Iceland Newsletter
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A directional joke, but still true, to lighten your spirit
One of the peculiarities of Icelandic language usage is, that if you're travelling to Reykjavík, you're always going south, no matter where in the country you happen to be. A friend of mine, brought up in Keflavík, assures me (and he was not joking), that when somebody from there is going to Reykjavík, he says ég er að fara suður (I',m going south [to Reykjavík]), although the actual direction is east-north-east. If someone from Reykjavík decides to visit Keflavík, he also says that he's going south, although the direction in this case is the opposite, i.e., west-south-west. (Check it out on a map.) Linguistic peculiarities abound, and languages are illogical. Anyway, that was the joke (or conundrum, if you will, take your pick) of the day. :-) Cheers Io 19:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the randomness :) Max Naylor 19:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

A favour ...
It means:


 * Hi, Max, wouldn't you relax a bit in creating new stubs? It would be better, if you yourself were to add to those stubs you've already created.

Cheers Io 20:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Plant
You asked me what the -um meant in the dative of "jurt" so I decided to decline it. You'd better use "planta" for "plant". "Jurt" is used for "herb":

singular
jurt - planta (nom) jurt - plöntu (acc) jurt - plöntu (dat) jurtar - plöntu (gen)

plural
jurtir - plöntur (nom) jurtir - plöntur (acc) jurtum - plöntum (dat) jurta - planta (gen)

Notice how -ir and -ar turn into -um in the dative case. --Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson 17:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe I've misunderstood the word herb, but jurt is any plant, which is not a tree or tree-like (e.g., shrubs). The potato is a jurt, for example. Cheers Io 22:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't ask me. I don't use it myself, since I never do any plant-talking. But I looked it up in my dictionary and it said "herb". To me, a herb is just plant stuff. I don't bother learn what they really are nor what they look like. It's enough for me to know what they are called in other languages... Herbology sucks. --Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson 21:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In any case, planta is a good example of the freedom you can have in Icelandic. I wouldn't be caught dead using planta in the genitive plural. For me it is plantna and for once, I believe I belong to the majority. Cheers Io (talk) 23:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 05:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Historical linguistics
I was wondering whether historical linguistics belong to your interests or not. If they do, we may have much to talk about. For instance, I just came across an Indo-European reconstruction for "mountain", namely, *bhergh- (there should be a circumflex over the g). Now look up one of the Icelandic words for mountain, or just recall the English word berg. The terminus post quem for the Indo-European word is around 2000 BC (the appearance of written evidence of differentiated languages) and for the terminus ante quem, we'll, nobody knows, but let's be generous and say 5000 BC. It's as good a guess as any. So the word has survived almost unaltered for about 7000 years. A verifiable example of longevity is the Latin for mouse, namely mus. (In scholarly editions there should be a macron over the u.) The Icelandic is mús, and as far as we know, pronounced exactly the same. I've always had fondness for the little rodent, since I found this out. Well, this was just a bit of Sunday cheering up. Hope it worked. Cheers Io 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, historical linguistics is one of my interests which I particularly enjoy reading about. In fact, I am considering doing a linguistics degree at Cambridge, and this is part of the syllabus. I think its amazing that all of these cognate words have evolved over years and are still traceable back to a common ancestor. Do you have MSN, per chance? Max Naylor 18:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We ended up in an edit conflict, so my PS about the laryngeal theory went poof. But look up laryngeal theory and the external links. They're a good read. Demonstrating my ignorance, what exactly does MSN stand for? Have fun. Io 19:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you are talking about literature, I have in the reconstructive field of Indo-European, Beekes, Meier-Brügger, Mallory & Adams, Szemerényi and Schmitt-Brandt. (Hope I haven't forgotten anything, but I collect books in two fields, linguistics and the physical sciences, maths, physics and chemistry.) I have a couple of dictionaries as well. Voyles and Krause deserve mention, although the former writer about Proto-Germanic and the latter about Proto-Norse. All the best.

Bloody faulty signout. Cheers Io 19:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * PS I looked up MNS in Wikipedia, and the closest candidates for that acronym are motor_neurone disease and MNS_antigen_system. I assure you, I have neither. :-) So what did you mean by MNS? Cheers. Io 19:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * PS Got the letters wrong and looked up MSN. There I found Master of Science in Nursing which I am also definitely not. :-) Cheers Io 19:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL, MSN (a.k.a Windows Live) Messenger is what I meant. Here’s the article. It’s an instant messaging client. Max Naylor 21:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

More historical linguistics
I'm reading the recently aquired Mallory & Adams. There is a list of Indo-European cognates, found, as they say in every major IE language group. Now, reconstructed words run in the thousands. So how many are attested everywhere. 15 in all, and one of those is even in doubt (Albanian for cow). Remarkably enough, only four basic numerals belong to that group. It reads like Agatha Christie. Cheers Io 20:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)