User talk:Mebuttlewiki

Question for administrator
Please could one undo the move of the page ""South African Irish Regiment"" to ""Andrew Mlangeni Regiment"". The reason is that this change has not been gazetted in by the South African Government and is therefore not yet official even though it has been signed off by the Minister of Defence. --Mebuttlewiki (talk) 06:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Do you have a reliable source that makes this claim? Also, we don't really care if the change has been gazetted, what we care (in part) is what is the WP:COMMONNAME that folks are most likely to recognize and associate it with? CaptainEek  Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 07:46, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as a reliable source, I am a Warrant Officer in the Regiment. All orders from the South African Army Formations still reference the South African Irish Regiment (SAIR) and not Andrew Mlangeni Regiment (AMR). In terms of a source for the South African Government Gazettes, all Gazettes are published on the Government Website www.gov.za/documents. The unit is still referred to as the South African Irish Regiment in most circles. I understand that you "we" mostly care about what the common name is, and whilst I appreciate the want of many parties to forget the old and bring in the new as soon as possible as a military unit we must follow correct procedure and I therefore request that this be observed on the Worlds information portal as well.

Mebuttlewiki (talk) 08:20, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am not an administrator but naming conventions are not necessarily ones which require admin attention and I believe I can help. When  says "we don't really care" I'm certain it was not meant dismissively.  It is merely that we are not a military unit that must follow correct procedure as you are and this project has arrived at certain agreed-upon naming conventions that are not directly tied to the official procedures of any external authority. Gazetting, for example, is a technical step that is required in your context but not really recognized here.  Our procedure can be found at the Article titles policy and the most relevant part of that is the Common names piece: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). Looking into the references, it seems that the new name has already been accepted without gazetting. For example, the new names were announced a year ago and even specialist press is treating the rename as finalized. South African press also reported the rename as a finalized thing at Mlangeni's funeral and in tributes to Mlangeni. I note the latter even says: As an officer in the people’s National Defence Force, I count myself blessed ...to walk in the shadow cast by giants like Andrew Mokete Mlangeni ...last year, one of our historic regiments, the South African Irish, was renamed the Andrew Mlangeni Regiment in his honour. This makes it clear that the "majority of independent, reliable sources" are using the new name and so that complies with out policies, even if it is not officially correct. I hope this helps explain things. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:24, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate that Wikipedia is not an official organization and information is posted in a collaborative effort, but I would assume that the goal is to have the best and most correct information up in the site. I am stating that your information is incorrect. To quote a media article from the Funeral of Andrew Mlangeni without proper research is just as irresponsible as the politised media who made those incorrect statements! No other Regiment you underwent the same renaming process has had their names changed. I will cite the Cape Town Highlanders and Durban Light Infantry as examples. If the administrations on Wikipedia refuse to correct a simple mistake which has been brought to their attention, so be it! But I make it clear that Regiments name in not Andrew Mlangeni Regiment yet! Mebuttlewiki (talk) 15:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , you have entirely misunderstood and misrepresented what has been offered to you as good-faith explanations of our policies. To your point of view, the "correct" name can only be the "official" one you have been instructed to use by your command authority.  We don't follow your command authority. From our point of view (see the Neutral Point of View policy for a fuller explanation) the "correct" name is the one that most users are likely to come here looking for.  We define that as the one that is used by independent sources, no matter how much you personally feel those sources are politicized.  I will look into the other regiments if I have time but I don't guarantee you'll be satisfied by the response. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:07, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to update: I have looked at all the announced renamings for SADF infantry formations and none of them qualify for article renaming under the policies linked above. The obvious fact that none of the other new names honor a respected individual who recently had a prominently covered funeral is the likely reason no other new name has started being accepted as a WP:COMMONNAME. I didn't look at the armored, artillery, etc. formations because the sample of the infantry units was so one-sided. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:04, 8 October 2020 (UTC)