User talk:Medbh

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Jazz (word)
Please refrain from massive, repetitive cut-and-paste additions to the Jazz (word) article, which entirely disregard the existing format of the article and its attempt to balance opposing views and existing research. There is already a paragraph in the article about Daniel Cassidy's etymological claims.

If you continue to do this I & other contributors will likely start treating your edits as vandalism or spam. --ND 04:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

You do not own the word "jazz" (teas) on Wikipedia or anywhere else. You are not balancing anything. Your article is replete with inaccuaracies and distortions. It is an embarassemnt. The attempt to marginalize Daniel Cassidy's pioneering work on the word "jazz" and hundreds of other American vernacular words and phrases in his new book How the Irish Invented Slang: the Secret language of the Crossroads  is pathetic. Cassidy's book has been hailed by scores of respected academics, journalists, writers, and Irish language scholars, since its publication 3 months ago. See the Irish Times, The Irish Independent, The Belfast Telegraph, Irish News, The Derry Journal, RTE, Ireland's national broadcaster, and Irish language publications like La Nua, Beo, and Foinse, as well as American media, including ABC radio, KPFA, WBAI, the SF Chronicle, and NY Observer,and this is just in the first weeks after publication. I shall continue to put up the Irish sanas of jazz. These last feeble attempts to censor Cassidy's work are laughably pathetic. Let's put it to mediation. I will provide 20 PUBLISHED articles supporting Cassidy's thesis. All you have are the same old white boy cronies and Anglophile dictionary dudes.

Faugh a ballagh!

Mr Baker, a chara...permit me to cite your criticism and my rejoinders.


 * The article is not my work (aside from some minor edits); I don't have a vested interest in it besides not wanting to see it badly damaged. Setting aside issues of content, you do not even adhere to proper formatting, citations, &c., & disregard the structure of the existing article--just cut & pasting a huge chunk of text into the middle of the article & deleting everything except Cassidy's book from the bibliography is not acceptable. --ND 18:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * While no one owns jazz, either the word or the Wikipedia article, I am the principal contributor to the article. I do not question that the article could be improved, but I do ask that you take into account the concerns that I expressed on the article's Talk page:


 * 1. Medbh has made long and substantially similar edits repeatedly, with no revisions to meet other editors' concerns or to discuss the edits on the Talk page.

I will be happy to discuss these revisions, but many of your statements on Cassidy's work are inaccurate.


 * 2. Medbh's edits are not properly formatted, making the article difficult to read and follow.

I agree and accept this criticism.


 * 3. The edits are not integrated with the remainder of the article. For example, the edits include some previously provided information in variant form.

I agree and accept this criticism.


 * 4. Medbh's source, Daniel Cassidy, How the Irish Invented Slang: The Secret Language of the Crossroads (2007), is not a reliable source, see WP:RS. Cassidy is an academic administrator at the New College of California, but he has no apparent training in linguistics; the college's website describes him as a "film maker, musician, and writer."  His book was not peer-reviewed and has not been well-received by professionals working in the field.  One professional lexicographer has called him a "known crank" with "rickety logic and dubious scholarship" and described his work as "rubbish" and "junk etymology."

This is utter nonsense. Cassidy is a tenured faculty member at New College of California, where he teaches media studies and Irish Studies. Prior to that he was on the graduate faculty of the Film Department at SF State. He is NOT an administrator at New College. Another example of either a lawyerly disregard for inconvenient facts or just plain poor research.

His book was peer-reviewed, and chapters from the book presented at academic conferences at New York University, Ontario University, UC Berkeley, New College of California, and numerous other Irish Studies conferences in Canada, the US, and Ireland. I attended two of them in person! Again your facts are just plain wrong, a chara (my friend).

HOW THE IRISH INVENTED SLANG has received stellar reviews from respected academics including Professor J. Joseph Lee of NYU and University College Cork, a fluent Irish speaker and arguably one of the most respected Irish Studies scholars in the world, Professor Robert Scally, former Director of NYU Glucksman's Ireland House, a highly distinguisehd author and academic, and Professors Peter Linebaugh, and Esther O'Hara (University of California, Berkeley), to name just a few I am personally aware of. I can check for more. So this criticism is in Cassidy's parlance baloney (beal onna, silly, foolish speech).

One professional lexicographer has called him a "known crank" with "rickety logic and dubious scholarship" and described his work as "rubbish" and "junk etymology."

Grant Barret has no academic position at a college or university that I am aware of and he does not read or speak Irish. His childish attack on Cassidy is not worthy of comment. Its tone speaks for itself. I am surprised you would cite it instead of these easily searchable (on Google) reviews from academics, authors, Irish-language experts, and journalists. I also find it interesting that you ignore Irish langauge experts' opinion on Cassidy's work. Are you just a wee bit Anglophile, a chara (my friend)?

The Irish language editor of the Irish Times, Pól Ó Muirí, had this to say about Cassidy's work. Perhaps Mt. Barret or one of the Irish language experts at your law office or at ADS can translate. I guess the Irish language editor of the Irish Times is a crank?

Leabharmheas Le Pól Ó Muirí Beo, Aug 20, 2007 Déantar léirmheas sa cholún seo ar leabhair Ghaeilge agus Bhéarla, ag baint le réimsí éagsúla. An mhí seo: How the Ir ish Invented Slang: the secret language of the crossroads le Daniel Cassidy (CounterPunch). Léirmheas le Pól Ó Muirí.

Údar Gael-Mheiriceánach é Daniel Cassidy, mar a d’aithneofá ar a ainm baiste agus ar a shloinne, agus comhlacht Meiriceánach é CounterPunch. Is leabhar i mBéarla é seo faoin Ghaeilge agus leabhar ina gcíorann Cassidy lorg na Gaeilge ar Bhéarla na Stát Aontaithe. Is i Nua-Eabhrac a tháinig Cassidy ar an saol agus is de thaisme a chuir sé spéis san ábhar seo. Cara dá chuid a fuair bás go hóg agus a d’fhág foclóir Gaeilge le huacht aige ba chúis le tús a chuid taighde ar fhocail Ghaeilge a mhaireann faoi chruth an Bhéarla Phoncánaigh.

Agus bí ag caint ar liosta focal. Scríobhann Cassidy go bhfuil bunús Gaeilge le focail ar nós “slum”. Tháinig sé sin ó “is lom” agus teifigh Éireannacha ag cur fúthu i gceantair bhochta Nua-Eabhrac agus Bhostúin. Is as an Ghaeilge a thagann an focal “jazz”; teas is fréamh leis; tagann “snazzy” as snas; is ionann “dingbat” agus duine bocht; “gink” agus geanc; “croak” agus croch; “clout” agus clabht; “so long” agus slán.

Tugann Cassidy mórán samplaí d’fhocail Bhéarla atá i mbéarlagair na Stát Aontaithe agus is fíor go bhfuil na leaganacha Gaeilge a aimsíonn sé iontach cosúil leis an Bhéarla ó thaobh fuaime agus brí de. Go fiú is go n-aimsíonn sé corrbhriathar a mhaireann faoi chruth amhráin. Ag scríobh ar amhrán amháin de chuid na sclábhaithe traenach, cuireann Cassidy ina luí ar an léitheoir gurb ionann curfá an amhráin: Fil-i-me-oo-re-i-re-ay agus “Fillfidh mé uair éirithe” a chiallaíonn, dar leis, “time to get up, I’ll go back.”

Is deacair gan aontú leis an chur síos sin agus cuireann sé téis de chuid an scoláire Breandán Ó Buachalla i gcuimhne dúinn. Thug sé caint i mBéal Feirste blianta fada ó shin inar léirigh sé go raibh Gaeilge in amhrán de chuid na bhFear Buí, Lilly Bolero: “lilí, ba léir ó, b’againn an lá.”

I measc nithe spéisiúla eile, scríobhann Cassidy go dtagann an focal “buckaroo” ó bocaí rua. Buachaill bó a bhí ann mar buckaroo agus arís, tagann ciall agus fuaim chur síos Cassidy le chéile. Cén fáth nach mbeadh tionchar ag an Ghaeilge ar chaint na mbuachaillí bó? I ndeireadh thiar thall, ba iad na hÉireannaigh teifigh eacnamaíochta a linne. B’éigean dóibh glacadh leis na poist ab isle céim agus is beag post ab ísle céim ná tiomáint eallaigh thar mhachairí Mheiriceá.

Samhlaigh seo fosta: Bhí clú ar John Wayne – nó Marion Michael Morrison! – mar dhuine de na haisteoirí ba chumasaí dá ré. Is minic a ghlac sé páirt i scannáin buachaillí bó agus bhain sé Oscar as a pháirt mar Rooster Cogburn sa scannán True Grit. Labhrann Rooster aon fhocal amháin Gaeilge le linn an scannáin sin. Agus é ag déanamh tagairt mhaslach d’inchinn mná, labhrann sé faoi “clábar”. (Amharc ar an scannán, mura gcreideann tú mé.) Is ar thailte na nIndiach i lár an 19ú haois atá an scannán suite agus ba spéisiúil fáil amach cá bhfuair lucht an scannáin an focal. An amhlaidh – agus níl anseo ach buille faoi thuairim – gur cuireadh an focal isteach mar aitheantas don chanúint áitiúil? Ní focal é a shamhlaíonn tú le cathracha na Stát, áit ar chuir formhór na nÉireannach fúthu.

Is é rud atá déanta ag Cassidy go bhfuil tús curtha aige le díospóireacht faoin Ghaeilge sna Stáit Aontaithe. Tá cainteoirí dúchais ag dul anonn chun an Oileáin Úir ó aimsir an Ghorta Mhóir. Bhain siad leis an aicme is lú pribhléid ar feadh Mad Dog Coll: cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge agus coirpeach mór le rá tamaill mhóir fhada. Is minic a chuirtear síos ar a n-imeacht as Éirinn i dtéarmaí talaimh amháin, is é sin, d’fhág siad an t-oileán ocrach ina ndiaidh agus sin go bunúsach a raibh i gceist lena gcaill. Is annamh a chuireann staraithe nó scríbhneoirí síos ar an rud a thug siad leo – mar atá teanga.

Ó luaigh mé Breandán Ó Buachalla uair amháin, luafaidh mé arís é. Scríobh Ó Buachalla ceann de na leabhair ba thábhachtaí riamh 40 éigin bliain ó shin, I mBéal Feirste Cois Cuain. Tá an t-am ag duine éigin a mhacasamhail – I mBostún Cois Cuain – a scríobh, leabhar a chuirfeadh síos ar an teanga thall agus ar na daoine – ó Rooster Cogburn go Mad Dog Coll – a labhair Gaeilge. Tá an chéad chaibidil scríofa cheana féin ag Daniel Cassidy.

Tháinig Pól Ó Muirí ar an saol i mBéal Feirste Lá Nollag, 1965. Is Eagarthóir Gaeilge de chuid an Irish Times é; colúnaí spóirt le Foinse agus scríobhann sé colún ar an Belfast Telegraph. Le cois bheith ina iriseoir, is file agus scríbhneoir é.

Nocht do chuid tuairimí maidir leis an alt seo i gClár Plé Beo! Give your opinions on this article in Beo!'s Forum.

++

Mr. Baker, how about these Irish and American academics, journalists, and award winning authors? Professor Joe Lee is no Grant Barret, of course. He has a PhD. and speaks Irish.

HOW THE IRISH INVENTED SLANG, by Professor J. Joseph Lee, NYU, University College Cork.

"THIS IS A LANDMARK BOOK!"

In this courageous, crusading manifesto, Daniel Cassidy flings down the gauntlet to all those compilers of dictionaries who fled to the safe haven of  ‘origin unknown’ when confronted with the challenge of  American slang. He claims instead that much of it, from the ‘Dead Rabbits’ of ‘The Gangs of New York’ to ‘jazz’ itself,  had its origin in words from the Irish language brought by the floods of  Irish immigrants. The originality and importance of the argument makes this an exciting contribution to both American and Irish Studies. This is a landmark book, at once learned and lively, and quite enthralling as to how American English acquired so vibrant a popular vocabulary. As Peter Quinn puts it in his Introduction, a gem in its own right,  Cassidy  ‘has brought back to life that which was considered dead and settled’. The corpse he has resurrected is bound to spark intense interest and debate.

Prof. J. Joseph Lee, Professor of Irish Studies                                                        Director, Glucksman Ireland House, New York University; Professor of History, University College Cork.

Or how about one of the most respected journalists in Ireland, who also speaks irish, Frank Mc Nally? The Irish Times devoted two long articles to Cassidy's book this summer. See Kate Holmquist's lengthy feature on Cassidy's book. It took up a whole page of the Irish Times. But then again, she is no Grant Barret. Here's just a peiece of the Frank McNally review from August. It was on the Op-ed page of the Irish Times, which is not edited by Grant Barret so it is must be a crank newspaper.

“It's not every dictionary you can describe as a thrilling read. But when I picked up Daniel Cassidy's How the Irish Invented Slang the other day, I soon found myself reluctant to put it down... this is a page-turner. Cassidy makes a powerful case for the Irish langauge influence on American slang."                      Frank McNally, Irish Times

In Ireland this summer, Cassidy's work was featured in every newspaper in Ireland, in both the Irish and English languages. RTE, Ireland's national broadcaster, devoted a whole hour to an interview with him. It is easily searchable on google. The BBC, BBC Ulster, Foyle Radio (Derry), Donegal FM, Highland Radio, Cork FM, Waterford FM, and a number of other radio stations, including Irish language stations devoted literally hours of air time to favorably reviewing Cassidy's work.

But of course to Anglophiles this means nothing. Again, Grant Barret was not invited on these shows, so they must all be cranks.

In San Francisco, the Chronicle devoted 3/4 of a page to a glowing review of Cassidy's book. The Chronicle is a crank newspaper. It did not quote Grant Barret. “Professor and author Daniel Cassidy can say this for sure: He's huge in Ireland…By plucking words such as "scam" and "snazzy" out of old English dictionaries and comparing them with phonetic twins in Irish dictionaries, Cassidy shows how Irish words were absorbed into American English while the Irish themselves were assimilating.” Reyhan Harmanci, San Francisco Chronicle

Eamonn McCann is a renowned author and columnist, who is also fluent in Irish. He is a revered Civil Rights scholar with family in the Donegal Gaeltacht. None of them are named Grant Barret, so McCann and his family are all cranks. Unlike the dúid Barret.

"Save the Irish dúid from the Oxford English dictionary! Daniel Cassidy has shaken the study of linguistics in the U.S. with a startlingly new theory – that much of American slang has been borrowed from Irish... Cassidy’s ideas have rapidly gained academic respectability since the publication of his book early this summer. This book is truly amazing!”                                                   Eamonn McCann, Belfast Telegraph

Alex Cockburn is from Cork, Ireland, and studied the Irish language for the first six years of his schooling. He reads Irish and speaks it. He is a crank too, since he does not know who Grant Barret is.

“Imagine old sunken roads, re-surfaced on our maps, imagine an x-ray of the American language, its sinews and its muscles. This is what Dan Cassidy gives us in his thrilling investigation... He lays out what the Irish in their revels, their loves and hates, their exuberant, often desperate battle with the New World, have given America in the way we all speak and read and write." “                     Nation columnist Alexander Cockburn, CounterPunch

Peter Quinn is a highly respected novelist and essayist. His grandparents were Irish speakers. Quinn also does not know who Grant barret is. Quinn is another crank.

“Roll over, Webster and Murray…what Cassidy has done is nothing short of miraculous.” Peter Quinn, author Looking for Jimmy: A Search for IrishAmerica.

Maureen Dezell is former drama critic for the Boston Globe and a respected critic and author. Dezell is a crank too in Grant barret's world.

“Among artists, scribes and scholars who have probed the Irish American past, only Daniel Cassidy has delved into the essence of Irish American culture and character: our inherited gift of language. Cassidy has explored and explained the origins and endurance of the blunt, evocative, sordid and exquisite Irish words and phrases that gave verve to the American vernacular.” Maureen Dezell, author Irish America: Coming Into Clover

Professor Bob Scally was the founding director of NYU's Ireland House. He is one of the most respected academics and authors in the field of Irish Studies.

Of course only English speakers are experts on the Irish language in Grant Barret's world. So Professor Scally is a crank too, I suppose?

“Irish Americans especially will be delighted to know they have been speaking Irish all along in their slang and American English... With imagination and scholarship, Cassidy has restored this hidden treasure to us in a book that is filled with wit and imagination.” Prof. Robert Scally, Professor Emeritus, New York University. Author, The End of Hidden Ireland.

On Nov. 6th in NYC, the Irish Arts Center, the Irish-American Cultural Institute, The Irish Consul General, New York University's Ireland House, and CUNY's Irish-American Studies Program, three of them instituiions which provide instruction in the Irish language at all levels from beginner to graduate level, will honor Daniel Cassidy and his new book: How the Irish Invneted Slang: the Secret Lnaguage of the Crossroads. Cassidy will be introduced by the New York journalist and author Pete Hamill.

Of course, how can these cranks compare to experts like Professor Grant Barret? "This book is essential to reading James Farrell, Eugene O'Neill, and Pete Hamill, and belongs on every writer's reference desk. The whole jargon of the city-desk, the arena, the wharf, the street-corner, detention hall, not to mention the joint, is here." Prof. Peter Linebaugh, author of The London Hanged


 * 5. Medbh's edits give undue emphasis to Cassidy's theory that jazz derives from Irish teas. Unlike many of Cassidy's other etymological claims, this theory has some degree of plausibility; another prominent lexicographer has called it "not obviously

YOU HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK.

Mr. Baker, I have limited time. I cede this space to the Anglophile dictionary dudes and the cronies of the Great Crank Grant Barret.

But I will bet you an unlawyerly 5 bucks that you have not even read Cassidy's book.

That is crankdom personified. Within a year or two, all of this baloney from the Grant Barret's of the world will be sliced and diced in English and Irish.

You win for now. I am too busy to argue with someone who hasn't read the book and wouldn't know an Irish word if it bit them on the puss (pus, lip, mouth).

Beir Beannacht, Medhb
 * Thank you for the response. I have responded at Talk:Jazz (word).  John M Baker 02:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)