User talk:Melwood19

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Disambiguation link notification for March 9
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Quranism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Abdur Rab (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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unsure
I'm unsure whether u are trying to incorporate your sandbox into the aricle as the two are different. Pass a Method  talk  16:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No. I just use it to try out my edits before I edit an actual article. Melwood19 (talk) 02:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would be useful to flex them up. Pass a Method   talk  08:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Make them reflect each other? Melwood19 (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Heading
Should i make a new heading called "hadith skeptics" for people like Taha Husein? Pass a Method  talk  19:35, 23 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't create another section (it would be too long since there are a lot of Muslims who are skeptical of some hadith but still think it should be an important part of the religion). If you think he belongs in the Notable Quranists section, put him there. I had thought about putting Mahmud Abu Rayya there, but I decided against it for the same reason I'm hesitant about putting Taha Hussein there. Melwood19 (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Webb
Are you sure Alexander Russell Webb is a Quranist? I havent seen anything indicating that. Pass a Method  talk  05:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Initially he was influenced by the Muslims he came across the Philippines. Then he came under the influence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Then he came under the influence of Chiragh Ali. He's one of those difficult to categorize cases like Taha Hussein and Mahmud Abu Rayya. Do you think he and other difficult to categorize people should be removed from the list? Melwood19 (talk) 03:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Quranism talk page
Sir, I would like to apologize for the tone of my last reply to your message on Talk:Quranism. It was testy which is inappropriate in any situation, especially when you were perfectly civil. I can assure you that my irritation was not Wikipedia related as I was distracted by something while writing it. I'm letting you know as I kind of feel bad now. Let's just work on improving articles. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It's cool. No need to apologize. Melwood19 (talk) 00:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you use Quranism as "Quran only" or "Islam based on Quran"? Some of the so-called quranists don't share "quran-only" view. Kavas (talk) 21:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Do you use Quranism as 'Quran only' or 'Islam based on Quran'?"


 * Both. I'd say it's a "distinction without a difference". The confusion seems to come from what is meant by "Quran only". For over a millennium, so-called Quranists have written numerous books on science, philosophy, theology, history, linguistics, etc. They read, study and get information from these books. They even read, study, and get information from hadiths. Some are/were experts in the field of hadith studies like Ibrahim an-Nazzam, Aslam Jairajpuri, and Aisha Musa. Concerning hadith, Edip Yuksel wrote:


 * "As for pure historical events that are isolated from their moral and religious implications, they are not part of the religion, and we don’t need them for our salvation. I never said 'we should not read hadith.' In fact, we can study hadith books to get an approximate idea about the people and events of those times. We can even construct a 'conjecture' about the history, without attributing them to God or his prophet. Please don’t forget that 'history' is not immune to filtration, censorship and distortion by the ruling class. You can see many different versions of histories (!) regarding the era of early Islam. Just read Sunni and Shiite histories."


 * http://19.org/2332/trash-hadith/


 * "Quran-only," as evidenced by the examples above, entails rejecting the authority of hadith in matters of theology and ritual. And it entails believing in the sufficiency of the Quran in matters of theology and ritual. It does not entail not studying or getting information from other books. "Islam based on the Quran" is self-explanatory. It entails basing your theology and ritual on the Quran.


 * "Some of the so-called quranists don't share "quran-only" view."


 * Which ones, and why? In your opinion, what does the"Quran-only" view entail? Melwood19 (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Quran-only" means using Quran as the only source of religion and people who hold this view categorically reject all hadith. Citing the same author you cited, I think Yaşar Nuri Öztürk (whose name appears on the article text) isn't holding the "quran-only" view (source:):


 * "'Ancak Yaşar Nuri hadisleri ve sünnetleri kategorik olarak reddetmek yerine onlardan Kuran’a uygun gördüklerini seçmeyi tercih etti. Bu dolaylı metodu hep yanlış buldum.' ('Yaşar Nuri isn't categorically rejecting all hadith and Sunna but he's selecting hadith that doesn't contradict Quran according to him. I always think that this indirect method is wrong')"


 * Kavas (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Quran-only" means using Quran as the only source of religion and people who hold this view categorically reject all hadith.


 * I still think this is a distinction without a difference. As I pointed out in my previous post, none of the people on the list categorically reject all hadith (for example, Shabbir Ahmed wrote a book titled "A Collection of Authentic Ahadith"). They reject the authority of hadith in matters of theology and ritual. It's a matter of authority, not authenticity. Even Sunni and Shia (the progressive/liberal/modernist type) question the authenticity of many hadith and reject them. But they still think some hadith are indispensable in matters of theology and ritual. "Quran-only" Muslims accept the authenticity of some hadith (or at least the possibility of some hadith being historically authentic), but reject the authority of hadith in matters of theology and ritual (see my previous post above).


 * Citing the same author you cited, I think Yaşar Nuri Öztürk (whose name appears on the article text) isn't holding the "quran-only" view (source):


 * "Ancak Yaşar Nuri hadisleri ve sünnetleri kategorik olarak reddetmek yerine onlardan Kuran’a uygun gördüklerini seçmeyi tercih etti. Bu dolaylı metodu hep yanlış buldum." ("Yaşar Nuri isn't categorically rejecting all hadith and Sunna but he's selecting hadith that doesn't contradict Quran according to him. I always think that this indirect method is wrong")


 * I can't read Turkish, but I think Yuksel sees Ozturk's theological views as similar to his. Isn't that the impression that you get when you read this quote from the article:


 * Ama, izlediğim kadarıyla Yaşar eleştiri ve tartışmalarını Kuran ve akıl yoluyla yaptı, yapmaya gayret etti. Yaşar’ın tartışmalarını takdir edenler hiçbir vakit onu bir melek gibi masum kabul etmediler… Aksine onun hatalarını ve zaaflarını gördüler… Ama Yaşar’ın savunduğu akılcı tevhid mesajını takdir edenler onun dile getirdiği evrensel doğruların Yaşar’ın şahsından bağımsız olduğunu akledecek olgunluğa ve yeteneğe sahiptiler… Yaşar Nuri büyük bir cesaretle ve dirayetle Sünnilik ve Şiilik adına insanlara yutturulan mezheplerin ve tarikatların uydurma olduğunu, ve bu uydurma dinlerin Allah’ın bizim için seçtiği İslam (barış içinde Allah’a ve yasalarına teslim olmak) ile alakası olmadığını defalarca isbat ederek bir islami reform (okuma özürlülere: islam’da reform değil!) hareketine önemli bir katkıda bulundu. Yaşar, değeri zamanla takdir edilecek önderlerden biridir.


 * You can establish who is a "Quran-only" Muslim in two different ways: by what they believe, or what they don't believe (through a process of elimination). After trying the first approach, let's try the second approach. Concerning Ozturk, ask yourself, if not a "Quran-only" Muslim then what? He's not a Shia (Alevi) because he accepts the authority of the Quran, and the Shia (Alevi) reject the authority of the Quran. He's not a Sunni because he rejects the authority of hadith, and the Sunni accept the authority of hadith. Even "selecting hadith that doesn't contradict Quran" gets you kicked out of the Sunni category, as Mahmud Abu Rayyah and others found out the hard way. So, if Ozturk isn't a "Quran-only" Muslim, what is he? No descriptor is a perfect fit, but I think "Quran-only" comes closest to describing what he is. Melwood19 (talk) 16:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

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