User talk:Mgracee

Welcome
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Grace family
I reverted you edit to the Richard Grace article and put in a link to the man who the original text mentioned. You will see that in the article Raymond le Gros links to (Raymond FitzGerald), there is another reliable source supporting the statement that Raymond FitzGerald was the "ancestor of the Grace family".

As the text was a cut an past from a reliable source with copyright expired, you will need to provide a reliable source for the change. But what would probably be of more use would be to put in the relationship between Raymond FitzGerald] (Raymond le Gros) and Odo IV, Count of Troyes, with a citation to a reliable source. For the same reason I have also removed your addition of similar information from to the Odo IV, Count of Troyes article. Please do not put it back without citing a reliable source.

If adding a citation seems complicated then providing you provide the source, leave me a message on my talk page and I will add it for you. -- PBS (talk) 23:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your posting to my talk page. Sorry I have not got back to you before, I have started to make some adjustments, See Raymond FitzGerald, but have more to say about Odo IV, Count of Troyes and will try to do so here on your talk page within the next 24 hours. -- PBS (talk) 10:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Better late than never (a lot more than 24 hours late!): I have moved Odo IV, Count of Troyes to Odo, Count of Champagne and added in a paragraph on the Grace family please take a look and make any changes you think appropriate. -- PBS (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Your recent edits
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NZ Sculling, Sullivan etc
All the newspaper reports of that time state that Stephenson was Champion of New Zealand. I have no absolutely positive proof that he put his title up when he rowed Sullivan in May 1891 but think this was fairly likely. None of these titles (eg Champion of NZ, Australia, NSW, and the rest,) were never ‘official’ in the sense of being awarded by a body charged with running a competition to find out who was the best. They were only ‘official’ in the sense of being accepted by sporting newspapers of the day and by implication, by the general public. This was true of most professional sport of the times. You can’t really apply 21st century concepts to 19th century events so we just have to take the information available that we find at face value

You must remember that in those days all the professional rowing was fairly lassie-faire. It was all by the challenge system and money spoke. If someone beat the Champion then the challenger could say that he was Champion and who was to disagree with him? If the public believed him that was enough. If a past Champion retired or went overseas (as did Sullivan) without defending his title, somebody else (or even the defeated person) could come along later and claim to be Champion. Generally they would support their claim by accepting challenges from other persons.

What I wrote about Sullivan and the NZ Sculling Championship was the best I could come up with from the resources available to me, such as ‘Papers Past’. Somebody else may be able to do better but I suspect much of it has been lost in the mists of time. The whole process was fairly murky anyway. You can’t find many ‘official’ lists of Professional Rowing Champions as you can with say the amateurs. Those amateur championships were run by an organisation with proper processes, and they kept proper records etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flags33 (talk • contribs) 08:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC) Sullivan etc Ps. Side bets were fairly common between contestants in rowing contests. The stake (a hundred quid a side) was usually put up by backers, i.e. contestants did not usually put up their own money. A side bet encouraged a bit more competiveness as their own cash was at stake. The high stake would also indicate that the title was ‘up for grabs’ as this was a normal amount for such a race. Ordinary cash races just for money were usually for a smaller sum. Another indication that Sullivan took the NZ Title was the fact that he challenged Stanbury for the World Title. Nearly every challenger in the World Title matches had earlier been a national champion. A website about Jim Stanbury and the Grafton rowing club credits Sullivan as “the New Zealand Champion.” There was an article about Sullivan on “Hear the Boat Sing.” Cheers, Flags33 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flags33 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Sullivan Again
Well, you may be right. I think evidence either way is somewhat debateable. I accept that Stephenson was still being called "Champion of NZ" in Sept 1893. See Evening Post 3/9/1892. What is not stated as how this came about. Cheers Flags33 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flags33 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Richard Grace
with this edit you added a YOB for Richard Grace please could you add an in-line citation as the current references do not have that information. -- PBS (talk) 21:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I moved the note quote down into the body of the article and added a template for Burke. You don't have to use the template, but do need to add something so that a person can work out which of the long references in the the reference list is being citied (as you did with the note "Langrishe, 1902, p.64-67") -- PBS (talk) 23:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of William Crassus


The article William Crassus has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Unsourced biography. Noting reliable in google search."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)