User talk:Mhkoepf

Synthesis
Please could you self-revert this edit at the Israeli settlement article as there are a number of problems.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 16:28, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It constitutes a "synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research". That is not permitted in Wikipedia (see WP:SYNTHESIS). You would need to find secondary sources that discuss whether there is a connection between settlement expansion and net migration for the West Bank.
 * The link you provided is for the Gaza Strip rather than the West Bank although the CIA's net migration data for the West Bank is the same.
 * The World Bank's net migration data for the West Bank and Gaza Strip is available via this link for interest.
 * Also, this Migration Profile for Palestine by the Consortium for Applied Research on International Migration may be of interest.

Dear Sean.hoyland,

thank you for the quick feedback regarding my edit. In particular, thank you very much for bringing the wrong link to my notice, it should of course be corrected. However, I disagree, that to set the number "net migration" in relation to the statement that "increasing settlements will force many Palestinians to flee to other countries" constitutes original research. It simply gives an answer to the question how many people actually leave the country - at least according to one source. It was natural for me, to look that numbers up, while I was reading the paragraph on the "Impact on demographics", as this impact was unfortunately not quantified at all, except in the very last part of the paragraph.

Would it be admissable to replace my edit with another sentence, taking into account your additional sources and leaving out the interpretation: "The actual number of Palestinians leaving the country varies depending on the sources. According to the CIA factbook, the net migration is ..., according to ... it is ..." and so on? These quantitative sources will help future readers much more than "seem" and "feel" statements, which are the last thing needed in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Best regards

Mhkoepf (talk) 17:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sean.hoyland,

after rereading the Wikipedia page on OR, I see that the formulation I use does not comply with Wikipedia rules and I will thus of course revert it. Nonetheless, I am looking forward to reading your opinion on the proposed reformulation in my previous answer.

Best regards

Mhkoepf (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The problematic part is "showing that this forced migration does not take place" because it's your conclusion based on the CIA data rather than a conclusion published by a reliable secondary source. Simply stating that according to the CIA factbook, net migration = 0 or providing other estimates would be okay, but I don't think it's the best approach. I agree that it's natural to want to refute statements that appear to be inconsistent with evidence, but we aren't allowed to do that here ourselves. The analysis and the conclusions have to come from reliable sources. The CARIM report seems like a much better source to me if the objective is to provide actual reliably sourced information about net migration and it's possible causes written by people who know what they are talking about. See page 5 for example. But frankly, I'm not sure why Sushil P. Seth's editorial is there or why Seth's opinion about the "overwhelming view" in a nation state matters. The URL is dead by the way but it was captured by archive.org here. If Seth's view stays it probably needs to be rewritten to get rid of the "seem to feel" vagueness. What he actually wrote was "The overwhelming view in Israel seems to be that the creeping process of settlements and annexation will force — with draconian laws and effective apartheid — many Palestinians into leaving their country for neighbouring Arab states. And those left will have no choice but to live on Israeli terms, which will essentially ‘solve’ the Palestinian problem", without providing evidence to support that statement. But as I said, I don't really see the value of the Seth piece for an encyclopedia. I think the WP:ARBPIA topic area has far too much opinion based content and not enough high quality information from sources like CARIM.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 17:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sean.hoyland,

Yes, I figured out what the problematic part was, when I reread the OR rules of Wikipedia. So, thanks for the feedback! I would be very happy, if _any_ report giving quantitative data would be included or linked in the article instead of my last edit. I just chose the CIA factbook, because it was the first source I came across and because I found the seeming contradiction to Seth's statement noteworthy. I fully agree that the quote by Seth does not contribute much and its worth for an encyclopedia is questionable.

From page 5 of the Carim report, I would like to use the conclusion in a future edit:

"The CARIM (Consortium for Applied Research on International Migration) report states that the reasons for individuals to leave the country are similar to those of other countries in the region and attributes less importance to the specific political situation of the occupied Palestinian territory."

with a reference to

"[...] the reasons which trigger individuals to leave the country are similar to those of other countries in the region (studying, unemployment, etc.) so that less importance is attributed to the specific political situation of the oPt."

From my perspective, this would contribute to a balanced view, as long as the quote remains in the text. Your opinion on this is most welcome, as are your literature references!

Best wishes

Mhkoepf (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)