User talk:Michael D. Turnbull/Archives/2023

Question from KamleshArora on Help:User contributions (05:57, 5 January 2023)
Hi,

I have published a page on Wikipedia and it's still under review. Please provide your guidance so that the page can be approved.

Regards Kamlesh --KamleshArora (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @KamleshArora Is this about Draft:Junglee Games? That was declined on 21 December and again on 24 December. I am not a reviewer of new articles but I know what reviewers are looking for. That is evidence that the company is notable in the specific meaning of that word used by Wikipedia. Evidence is needed in the form of citations which are all three of: from reliable sources, independent of the company and with significant coverage, not just a mention. That rules out anything mostly based on an interview (current refs #1, #2) or a press release (#5): I didn't check the other refs. Your draft says "recognized as one of India's great mid-size workplaces 2022 by Great Place to Work". That sounds very promising, since I assume that Great Place to Work is some sort of organisation independent of Junglee games. However, you don't cite your source for that statement, so readers can't verify it, a core principle here on Wikipedia. You need much more on what third-parties are saying about Junglee Games (for good or bad) and much less about what they are saying about themselves. The world is full of people and companies going about routine business. Wikipedia only wants articles on those clearly making an impact that others are writing about. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:36, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Vipul.sushiljain (17:51, 6 January 2023)
Hi I have started writing blogs, on Jainism, All the knowledge which I have to the best I am articulating it and writing it so people know and read about it. This is by blog URL - https://jainidologythirth.blogspot.com Kindly visit it, and help me in adding a backlink of my blog to wikipedia so people visit and read. Thank you. --Vipul.sushiljain (talk) 17:51, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @Vipul.sushiljain No! Wikipedia must not be used for promotion of any sort and spam links to external websites will be deleted on sight, as one you added already has been. In addition, blogs are not considered reliable sources (see WP:BLOGS) and have very limited use within Wikipedia. Please restrict your contributions to material that will improve the encyclopaedia. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not using wikipedia, for promotion, the content which I have written is logical and valid, which will help people to know more on thirthankar god. Vipul.sushiljain (talk) 06:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Vipul.sushiljain Adding links to your blogs is promotion, irrespective of how accurate the material is. If you have published in a peer-reviewed journal then you could cite the information. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Void if removed (11:14, 5 February 2023)
Hi, you've been assigned as my experienced mentor and I have a question about sources, verifiability and original research.

I've found myself mostly trying to engage constructively in a highly contentious topic area so I'm trying to approach edits with caution and build consensus, and work towards a neutral POV as much as possible.

When it comes to preferring secondary sources over primary ones, what should we do when there is clear disagreement? A primary source says x, a supposedly reliable source says y, yet anyone can read the primary source and verify that it is indeed x - should we still defer to the secondary source? That is, does a reliable secondary source override a primary one, or does verifiable disagreement put the reliability of the secondary source in question?

Thank you for your time! --Void if removed (talk) 11:14, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @Void if removed That's a tough question! I mainly edit in areas of science, so there tend to be multiple sources for most facts and a decent primary source will usually have been peer-reviewed, which gives it extra weight. I gather that your "highly contentious" topic area is for example the LGB Alliance. For these sorts of topics, much of the heat is generated because people express their strong opinions surrounding a limited number of objective facts and get into tangles over definitions. The role of a Wikipedia editor, I think, is to disregard all that and recast the information in a strictly WP:NPOV way for our readers. So it is quite reasonable that an article here should point out that primary source x and secondary source y differ and that yet another source z exists. Maybe we shouldn't comment at all until the dust settles: how will tertiary sources in 10 years' time view the issue?
 * I could perhaps give a better answer for a specific case but meanwhile my advice is that you WP:AGF with those who disagree with you. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:23, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I tried to be vague because I don't want to bother you with specifics, especially as it is so contentious and I'm well aware I'm in the minority here, but perhaps vagueness isn't terribly helpful!
 * If you really want to go down the rabbit hole (though I very much advise you don't), I think this discussion about "founders" is probably the area where I first really ran off the rails trying to pick apart how to reconcile primary and secondary sources. I'm in the minority in caring about it so I don't expect to make any headway with it and have dropped the whole issue - I only picked it in the first place because I thought it would be simple!
 * Here is a problem where an organisation says one straightforwardly factual thing about themselves, very clearly, in multiple primary sources, something backed up by *some* secondary sources and *some other* secondary sources disagree, *some of which* have been corrected or disputed directly by the individuals in question (on eg. Twitter). It isn't a subject that's easily deferred to "some people say x, others say y", nor is it a subject where summing together all possible options produces a useful result either.
 * It may seem a minor point, but from digging through the page history I believe that a specific list of names has been synthesised from multiple sources and then subsequently started to appear in secondary sources, which then has been used as citations to reinforce that original list, in a circular fashion. Obviously I can't prove that someone copy+pasted the list from wikipedia (or google) into an article, but I'm personally convinced that's happened.
 * So yes, anyway, I guess I'm a bit lost as to where the maxim of preferring secondary sources turns into a disregard for when they contradict primary ones, and how to navigate policy in this area. Void if removed (talk) 15:01, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Void if removed If I had been engaged in that discussion (and I'm glad I wasn't) I would simply have quoted this webpage as being fully in compliance with a Wikipedia policy, namely WP:ABOUTSELF. Other editors might have been able to find earlier versions of that page on the Wayback machine that said something different but by WP:ONUS (another policy) it is for those who wish to include potentially controversial material to come to a WP:CONSENSUS to do so. All that said, I think you were right to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Life is too short to fight these sorts of debate. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:51, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your guidance, it is appreciated. Hopefully I'll manage to branch out into less heated areas before I ask another question! Void if removed (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Question from CinemaScholar on Docufiction (15:16, 7 February 2023)
I need help adding a citation to an entry. --CinemaScholar (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @CinemaScholar I'm guessing here but I think you need something like this:
 * The neologism docufiction was introduced by Rhodes and Singer.


 * The page number can be specified using the rp template (I've checked on Google books and that's the correct page). You could include the Google books URL but that's unnecessary. If I've got the wrong end of the stick, please give more details.... and incidentally that article displays examples of WP:OVERCITE. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:32, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Question from CinemaScholar (22:15, 7 February 2023)
Thanks very much. I made the change exactly as you suggested, with the wording and ISBN number. Someone called Mr.Ollie not only deleted the change, but keeps posting rude stuff about me. Why is this happening? Why would Wikipedia do this to a volunteer attempting to help, someone who reached out for help (to you) and then followed the suggestion precisely? --CinemaScholar (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2023 (UTC)


 * This change is blatantly incorrect, and badly sourced. See Talk:Docufiction. -MrOllie (talk) 22:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Question from CinemaScholar (22:44, 7 February 2023)
I've now added a secondary source, peer-reviewed, and this person is still "warring" against me. Is there anything that can be done? --CinemaScholar (talk) 22:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @CinemaScholar Having discussions in multiple places makes it difficult for editors to follow them. Please now restrict comments about the article content to Talk:Docufiction and behavioural conduct to WP:ANI, if you decide to go down that route, which I note you have not yet done and I would not recommend. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Question from User:Johnsagent
I queried the Wikipedia Help Desk about a Deprecated Sources notice I got when I tried to submit an article on my sandbox because on my edit page, none of the deprecated references were marked. You were nice enough to locate two of them for me which I removed. However, I just tried to resubmit and got the same notice though I have no red marks on my draft. Could you help again?Johnsagent (talk) 08:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @Johnsagent I still see a deprecated source at #1233, which is the website nndb.com. Ideally, your draft could do with a lot of other tidying-up of sources. For example (using this one as its easy to locate in the text): you have #1787 That's got a direct link to a URL that's the top level of a website, which should really be the |website= parameter of a cite web AND a URL for the actual material you are citing. The whole thing would be much better if transformed to this. There may be additional parameters to add, such as the author information but I can't actually reach the website from my European location, so I can't check.
 * Some of your bare URL's can probably be improved just by running the "Expand citations" menu option at the side of the sandbox page but I'm hesitant to let that bot loose on such a huge number of citations in one go as it will be near-impossible to compare the before and after versions! Nevertheless I would encourage you to try these sort of fixes as you have clearly already put immense amounts of time into the draft and it would be a pity not to finish the job. Let me know if I can help with parts of what needs to be done.
 * I've been working hard. So, do you see any other deprecated sources that need attention?  Any way to get them all?Johnsagent (talk) 18:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Johnsagent I don't see any more deprecated sources now. Why not install the gadget at User:Headbomb/unreliable into your own account and then you'll be able to see them yourself in future? That gadget also highlights less reliable (but usable) sources, so you might look for alternatives for marginal sources or remove them if you have multiple sources already. I noticed a couple of places where you have DAB-page links rather than links to the correct article. These appear in orange and are Robert Bentley, Shawn Harrison, William Scarborough, Nelson Castro, Sandra Williams, Peter Beck (politician), Dan Kirby, Harold Mitchell and Chittenden County. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:59, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Hessische Staatskanzlei
Dear Michael D. Turnbull, the whole thing started when i came across the English article on the Staatskanzlei, which had only one sentence in it and an info above on the site that one should add additional info by translating the German article and that is, what i have done. I added the external link to the Duties of the Staatskanzlei as i myself thought it was a bit thin on this. I guess, the info on the former Hotel Rose has been given to show its huge history - i could leave out the stuff about JÜrgen Schneider - then it would perhaps be clearer? Or do you think one should erase the history of the Hotel completely? Kind regards, Naomi Hennig (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Naomi Hennig I think that the building itself is interesting and that its history as the hotel is relevant. There should be enough sources to expand the current English article based on what you have already added in your sandbox. My assumption is that the role of State Chancellery for each German state will be somewhat similar across them all, although I'm not familiar with where there are articles for these (or a summary article) in English. My suggestion would be that you move material from your sandbox, leaving out most of the "Tasks" and all of the "Head of..." section but keeping the bit on Schneider as that's certainly relevant to the history of the building. Meanwhile, I'll add an infobox for the building. Then we can review where we've got to and think about where to put the material on the Hesse Chancellery as a political institution. Is that OK? Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I just found a German wikipedia-article on the subject of "Staatskanzlei" in general:


 * In most of the German states, the State Chancellery (also known as the Senate Chancellery or State Ministry) is the official residence of the Minister President. The officials and employees of the State Chancellery assist the Prime Minister in the performance of his official duties. The State Chancellery has the status of a supreme state authority.[1][2] The Head of Office of the State Chancellery is usually called the Chief of the State Chancellery (CdS). Central tasks are the comprehensive information, the preparation of problems, the preparation of decisions for the respective head of government, the enforcement of the guideline competence of the head of government as well as planning, coordination, management and control of the government work. The authority's responsibilities also include preparing decisions on the awarding of decorations and state prizes, organizing protocol matters, and press and public relations work.

Perhaps we could use this to fill up the article on the "Hessische Staatskanzlei" and put all the text on the former hotel Rose in an extra article, like a stub? Kind regards, --Naomi Hennig (talk) 11:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Naomi Hennig Wouldn't it make more sense to do it the other way round? The existing Hessische Staatskanzlei is about the building: I've just added it to Wiesbaden-Mitte as a building of interest. It is very relevant that the wikidata item for the article calls it a national heritage site, nothing to do with government as such. "State Chancellery" is Wikidata Q1415691 and it would probably be as State Chancellery that you would create a new article on the more general topic, with text including what you have translated above. Then the historic list of heads of the individual states would be sub-sections of that article and of course there would be a wikilink to the Hesse building as an example. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This sounds very reasonable... now we would call the article ²Former Hotel Rose"? And then this article would only be on the building... and the other thing with the state chancellery would have some time for me to collect info? Kind regards and thank you very much that you help me on this subject, i really appreaciate this! Kind regards, Naomi Hennig (talk) 14:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Naomi Hennig I don't think that there is any need to alter the name of the article, as that corresponds to the current name of the building and Wikipedia typically renames articles to their current form or the WP:COMMONNAME. Obviously, the enhanced article should include material already in your sandbox about the former hotel. I've already added the infobox.
 * As to the wider issue, I'm on a steep learning curve! Just looking at en:Wikipedia, we have States of Germany and Composition of the German state parliaments, which cover the whole country. Then for each Landtag there are articles like Landtag of Hesse and List of presidents of the Landtag of Hesse, with another article explaining what a Minister president (Germany) is. As far as I can tell so far, there is no article on State Chancellery or any List of State Chancellors but if there were to be such articles, I'd expect them to cover all the German states, with tables as at States of Germany. Whether there should then be individual article for each state (e.g. State Chancellery of Hess etc) I'm not sure: is there such a thing comprehensively on the German Wikipedia? We do have German Chancellery for the federal level. So, the main issue for you is how much new writing you want to do and at what level: the whole in one article and/or each Chancellery at State level. You could be very busy for a long time but WP:NOHURRY! What do you think? Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * First of all, this is a learning curve for me too... I never knew our political system is so complicated. When i started with the translation i really had to look up the tasks they are performing at the Hessische Staatskanzlei... :-) - i would never pass an immigration-test for Germany, i fear. As i'm pretty busy at the moment preparing a weekend in Hesse (haha, yes, my sister lives there and our whole family is spread over Hesse), i would prefer to leave this tangled wool of all the Chancelleries to someone more enthusiastic about this than me... do you go accord? :-) - Kind regards and thank you so much for your insight and help. It means a lot to not be left completely alone with such complicated matters, --Naomi Hennig (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Naomi Hennig That's absolutely fine. No-one here has to do anything they don't want to do. You have already completed most of the difficult bits that will help expand Hessische Staatskanzlei and I hope you'll complete that by moving the relevant parts to the live article, as we have discussed. Enjoy your time in Hesse! Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:59, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Michael, would you be so kind to have a look on what i added to the site? I also added the template "translated page" and the info-box looks great. Gives the whole article more power, i find! --Naomi Hennig (talk) 17:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Naomi Hennig OK, I'll do a light bit of copy-editing later this evening. For example, the way you did used ill wasn't quite right. Incidentally, you have expanded the text more than fivefold, so in its current state the article would be a candidate for a WP:DYK on the Mainpage. That would be another milestone in your life as a WP editor: let me know if you need help in making a nomination (see the link for the basics). Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, Michael, you did a lot of editing, finding this wonderful old picture of the building and finding good reference-links for the text. The article really looks great now! I never did nominate an English article on the Did you know, for the German "Schon gewusst" i already had 7 articles there. But do you believe that really many people are interested to know more about the Hessische Staatskanzlei? Kind regards, --Naomi Hennig (talk) 11:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Nomination an article for DYK?
Hi, yesterday you mentioned I could nominate the article for a DYK? I would like to do so, but I'm not sure I can phrase it perfectly on my own. Personally I was thinking something along the lines of "Did you know Thrasybulus of Miletus tricked the Lydian king Alyattes into believing his city was thriving with a party, and so ended the siege of Miletus and a twelve year war?" Alternatively, a less detailed version: "Did you know tyrant Thrasybulus ended the twelve-year Lydian-Milesian War with a fake party?" My phrasing isn't fantastic, but I believe this anecdote is the most interesting from the article. How can I improve the DYK? Many thanks GeneralCraft65 (talk) 09:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @GeneralCraft65 Your second, shorter, version is the sort of "hook" that's perfect for DYK, as it is likely to make readers want to know more. There is a nomination wizard at Template:DYK nomination header. Read the instructions on that page and try it out. Post back into this thread if you need any assistance. The text for the hook will be (with links) ...that tyrant Thrasybulus ended the twelve-year Lydian-Milesian War with a fake party? You can copy/paste that bit out of here in the source editor. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:09, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Hessische Staatskanzlei
BorgQueen (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Precious
You are recipient no. 2840 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Your change on Societat Civil Catalana
You removed a sentence in agreement with Crystallizedcarbon on this page. I think that, por exactly the same reasons as explained by the latter in the Talk page, and because the same wrong source is quoted, the following sentence appearing at the end of the chapter 'Activism' should also be deleted: 'This belief is aligned with the rhetoric used by Spanish nationalism'. Thanks for your attention Mariano211 (talk) 17:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Mariano211 For the sake of openness and to keep all discussion in one place, please make your comments on Talk:Societat Civil Catalana rather than here. It would be sensible to start a new section for each edit request, even though your current suggestion will be similar to the one already actioned. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have got this message again. Do you suggest that I start a new section with my proposal? In order to avoid another lengthy discussion, perhaps it would be sensible to just delete the sentence I point at, because consistent with your previous deletion of 24 March. I wait for your comments before going ahead. Mariano211 (talk) 19:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mariano211 The discussion on the article seems to have calmed down, with the latest comment on the Talk Page being yours of March 31. Now might be the time to proceed cautiously to make a small change to the article itself and see what comment that gets. If you are reverted, don't edit war but immediately engage in a discussion in a new section. Remember WP:ONUS says that people adding article content have to justify doing so and gain consensus, whereas removing content is less controversial. If you do delete the sentence, consider leaving the citation if it is relevant elsewhere: I'm thinking of the Alia Wong article, which is in English and makes some reasonable points. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your sensible advice, I will proceed as suggested Mariano211 (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Following 95.17.250.138's reaction I created i new section under 'Talk'. Thanks for your attention Mariano211 (talk) 14:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Lee Youn Chin - translation to Chinese draft done
Dear Mike,I

Hope you are doing great! Its good here too.

If I may trouble you again, the article of Lee Youn Chin, was successfully translated to Chinese. I submitted it, and I can see that it is now a draft in Chinese, as confirmed by Wiki-Chinese message to me. However, when I go to my translation-> it displays Lee's draft in Chinese under Published. When I click on the draft, I now cannot see my translation any more. ?? Instead, it says "Wikipedia does not have a draft: Lee Youn Chin. ???

This msg comes up-


 * 开始编辑Draft“Draft:李雲珍 Lee Youn Chin”.

But the below link I saved does display it in Chinese.

Sorry, I'm all muddy again and not sure as to why - Now I see, Now I don't syndrome! :((

Please help and advice me to whom should I contact. The Chinese wiki translation group, I did open a talk page when I moved it to publish. But I'm not sure of things. Maybe, its a phrase to wait till the wiki patrol, wiki editors and others see and approved and move it?

https://en.wiki%E9%9B%B2%E7%8F%8D_Lee_Youn_Chin&oldid=1151097826pedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:%E6%9D%8E

Thank you very much, Mike!

Setwikirec0 (talk) 00:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Setwikirec0 As far as I can tell, the problem is that you drafted the Chinese version of the article here on the English Wikipedia, so its URL currently is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:%E6%9D%8E%E9%9B%B2%E7%8F%8D_Lee_Youn_Chin . Note the "//en." at the beginning. Each language on Wikipedia has its own rules and submission procedures. No-one here within the English Project can accept an article into Chinese Wikipedia. Instead, you need to find out what their submission process is and follow it. You can copy/paste out your Chinese draft as wikitext into that language's equivalent of the articles for creation page, which I think is at this URL and read any instructions there for submitting it. Later, you can get an administrator here on English Wikipedia to delete the redundant draft by adding the template db-author to the very top: that is how to request what we call "speedy deletion", leaving no trace here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Just one more thing. For copyright reasons, you need to say where you got the original (English) version of the article you translated when you copy/paste it into the Chinese area. Do that by an edit summary. There is more information at WP:TRANSLATEUS. Incidentally, you can see your global contributions at this URL, which currently has no relevant Chinese entries. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Always so thankful for your promptness! You are very helpful and the best, Mike! Setwikirec0 (talk) 16:52, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Question from Definitelynotlane (03:21, 26 April 2023)
How can I start a new historical page about a person of the American society that's unheard of --Definitelynotlane (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)


 * That's a tough question, @Definitelynotlane! If you mean that there is no reliably-published information about the person, then the answer is simple: you can't, because wikipedia only covers topics that are notable in a specific sense. If you mean that there is information about them that exists only in obscure historical records and books that few people have access to but you do have access, then it might be possible but I warn that it is tricky for new editors like yourself to draft an article (we prefer that word to "page", since we are not social media). You have a steep learning curve and should start by reading this basic overview of what we need. The process of creating a draft for review by experienced editors is explained here. Good luck.... if you have addiitional questions, just add them here in this section of my Userpage and I'll try to assist. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Question from Diana Agron00 (15:12, 14 May 2023)
Hi... How do I verify my account in Wikipedia. --Diana Agron00 (talk) 15:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Diana Agron00. I don't really understand your question. Accounts here are not required to use real-life names and most editors use a pseudonym. I happen to use my full name but have never "verified" it to anyone on Wikipedia. It is actually against policy to impersonate some well-known living person by using their name as your account name (see WP:UN). Are you claiming to be Dianna Agron? It is also against policy to reveal the real-life identity of anyone using a pseudonym (see WP:OUTING).
 * By the way, I note from your Userpage that you work at IMDb. Please note that Wikipedia does not consider that it is a reliable source and you will get into trouble if you add information based only on IMDb citations. See WP:IMDB for the details. It is, however, standard practice to link to that website in the external links sections of articles on films, TV shows and actors and there are templates to do just that at IMDb name and IMDb title. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:42, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Question from Md. Atiq- Ur- Rahmann on User:Md. Atiq- Ur- Rahmann (20:59, 20 May 2023)
Please could you tell me how can I established in this page? --Md. Atiq- Ur- Rahmann (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not Facebook: you don't get to have a page. Please read WP:AUTO and WP:FIRST as those should answer all your questions. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 22:39, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Md. Atiq- Ur- Rahmann Editors on Wikipedia are given a personal area, not part of the main encyclopaedia where we have articles. To create it, click on your username here (currently in red) and then type what you wish to tell other editors about what you will contribute. Before doing that, read the advice at WP:UPYES, which describes what may be placed there. In a moment, I will add some relevant further information on your Talk Page. Mike Turnbull (talk) 23:02, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Minor thing
The User_talk:Michael_D._Turnbull/Archives/2022 is partly messed up, see last named thread and downward. I'm guessing a stray symbol or half-tag somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, . Somehow a nowiki end-tag had become "nowiki/" instead of "/nowiki". Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * For the benefit of future WP-archeologists. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

JcwDenno (talk) 04:31, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Question from Iljhgtn (14:05, 12 June 2023)
There is a welcome or "home page" for me, and it says "Most viewed (since your edit)", will my user page or talk page ever appear on there if I happen to spend more time on those than on some other random pages? Or are those pages excluded from the algorithm?? --Iljhgtn (talk) 14:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * No, as it says on the page I linked in my original reply, the new-user homepage view count only refers to views of articles in mainspace that you have edited. You can see how many pageviews there are on any general page by clicking on the "Page information" link which on my PC using the default Vector 22 skin is located to the right of the page content. You can get a very full summary of your editing by navigating to a URL like this: I've used my own edit history in that link since there's more to see than currently would be in yours. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Question from Iljhgtn (02:28, 12 June 2023)
It says you are my mentor, what does that entail? --Iljhgtn (talk) 02:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Iljhgtn and welcome to Wikipedia as a editor. The basic objectives of the mentoring program are discussed at this link. The idea is that by putting new editors in touch with a named individual, they are more likely to manage what can be a steep learning curve here. You are under no obligation to use me as your mentor: you could for example just ask questions at the Teahouse, as I see you have already done. I regularly contribute to the Teahouse and Help Desk, as well as making article edits on topics I'm interested in (see my UserPage). If there is anything you want me to help with, just continue to place requests in this thread. (P.S. I am in the UK time zone, so mainly active 10-18 hours GMT) Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for your time. i am in virginia, so eastern time zone. So we are a bit off. I can continue to ask questions in the tea house if that is better? Iljhgtn (talk) 13:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iljhgtn You'll get broader and faster answers at the Teahouse but the whole point of the mentoring system is to encourage questions that new editors might worry may make them look stupid if posted in that rather public forum. Also, Teahouse threads get archived after just a few days, making it harder to find your old question again if you need to remind yourself of the answer/links. Talk Pages tend to be archived much more slowly and to have less content in the first place. For asking me questions that you want to keep close at hand, just ping me to a new thread on your own Talk Page, where everything will be under your full control. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:06, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * ping you? Iljhgtn (talk) 14:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * can i only "ping" you on my own talk page??
 * Also, I want to update my signature, do you know how i do that too?
 * Cheers Mike Iljhgtn (talk) 14:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iljhgtn The ping mechanism works to alert people to any Talk Page, provided you make sure you sign your posts (as you have been doing). See WP:PING for the full details. You don't, for example, need to ping me when you reply within my Talk Page, as the system already alerts me to new content here. It is good practice to ping people in other threads, however, since they may otherwise not notice you have replied, even if the person you are replying to has the Talk Page on their watchlist. That's particularly important in threads within the Teahouse, and similar, where content comes so quickly that it is easy to forget you were in the midst of a conversation! The "reply" mechanism (as distinct from the "edit source" mechanism) for editing Talk pages is very helpful since it gives an edit window with an icon on the right which can be used to add the names of people you wish to alert who have already contributed to that thread.
 * You'll often find that you can get self-help by searching within the main search bar with a likely search term prefixed by WP: Hence "WP:SIGNATURE" finds WP:SIGNATURE, where you'll find the instructions, including how to customise your own. The so-called "WP" namespace (see WP:NAMESPACE) is where loads of help exists. There is also a specific Help namespace but I find that less comprehensive. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * sign my posts? Iljhgtn (talk) 14:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * i just click on "reply", is that "signing"? Iljhgtn (talk) 14:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The reply tool adds signatures automatically and seems to be what you have used consistently so far. See WP:SIGNATURE for the alternative method that involves adding four tilde characters ~ ~ ~ ~ (without gaps) which the Wiki software converts to a signature + timestamp. You need to use that method if you are editing directly not usng the reply tool. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks mike, im going to click the wp:signature thing next and look into that. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Imdb-links, again
Did you ever find out where on WP the use of these (the sneaky ones) are recommended/taught? Is it perhaps even done automatically with visual editor? Perhaps whatever it is can be sought out and de... changed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The only place I ever found was in a Help page: we both commented on Help_talk:Interwiki_linking but nothing happened! Actually, I don't think that's the answer. I suspect it is something to do with new editors who are familiar with IMDb where, maybe, they use that sort of link. I've asked on such editor's Talk Pages to tell me where they got the idea but no-one has said anything useful. I warned a couple of editors recently here and here but got no responses. If they do reply, I'll try to get them to open up.... and I suggest you take the same approach when you next run into the issue (I don't bother trying to reach out to IP editors, who are the main culprits). Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should probably have made that edit last year! It will be interesting to see if it makes a scrap of difference. My bet is "no". (P.S. I removed all the latest baddies yesterday and just now, so currently we have a clean slate). Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not likely to be a place the newbies read, is it? I actually got an edit conflict with you on that yesterday. I just tried to insert imdb as EL with VE, but it seemed to use the template correctly. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll go back and ask the specific question of the two people from yesterday, in the hope they can throw some light on this. I'm glad you've shown it ain't a problem in the VE, as that would have been a b..... to get someone to fix. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Quite a bother, yes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång Ah! Maybe some progress: see User talk:UWJSISA414TWA%26C. Perhaps you could add some advice there about the correct use of VE, as I'm not familiar with it? Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And you think I am!? I've concluded it doesn't actually give you std:s, though. I wrote something. I keep thinking I should get better at it, for Teahouse understanding if nothing else. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, that makes an amount of sense, many of the "afflicted" articles seems to have non-eng origin, so to speak. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm, VE may be our enemy after all:. Don't ask me how they did it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That diff's been redacted for copyvio, so I can't see what you meant. I'll start to play with VE today and see what I come up with. Meanwhile, I thought we could add a "Technical considerations" section to WP:CITEIMDB explaining how to use the imdb name and imdb title templates (or cite web) and not the interwiki links: that might assist anyone who actually went to look for help to do things correctly. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've tried the VE editor, where I find there's a pretty steep learning curve for adding templates: and you have to know they exist! I've made some tweaks to the wording at WP:CITEIMDB and WP:IMDBTEMPLATE which I hope may help. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * What happened was that the editor changed my EL-section imdb (template) to the kind we don't like, with a VE (tagged) edit. In other news, . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that revert. I think from their edit summary Mathglot was objecting to the text being in the "Disadvantages" section, not that it shouldn't be somewhere more relevant. They also seemed to be worried that if there was specific advice against the IMDb link in articles then the Help page arguably needs other advice about when/where to use interwiki links that would make the page unwieldy. Maybe needs to be discussed with them either on that Talk Page or on their UserTalk page. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Question from Cookie dough dingus (03:50, 21 June 2023)
Hi, I was wondering how to write about a rural high school in Kentucky (Rockcastle County High School, it's a draft into resubmission at the moment) without it being declined? I've marked the school's district and did US Dept. of Education research and cited sources, supplied a well-organized infobox template and supplied the location and coordinates! What am I doing wrong? --J.A. (talk) 03:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Cookie dough dingus The issue is not what you are doing "wrong" but the fact that the draft does not show that the school is notable in the sense that Wikipedia defines this. The world has hundreds of thousands of schools so Wikipedia wants to focus on those which have already been commented on in sources meeting these criteria. Your draft merely shows that the school exists but does nothing to show that it stands out from the crowd. In the early days of the encyclopaedia, stub articles like that often got published but now with over 6 million articles in English, the standards have, correctly in my opinion, been raised (see WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES). Incidentally, the reviewers won't be impressed by the fact that you have re-submitted it, after Sungodtemple moved it to draft, without making any substantive change to address the lack of notability. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Question from Iljhgtn (15:14, 17 June 2023)
How am i doing? anything you might change? --Iljhgtn (talk) 15:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Iljhgtn Your contributions seem mostly fine. The ones reverted by other editors all relate to over-use of Wikilinks, I guess because of MOS:OVERLINK. Now may be the time to try to make more substantial contributions by researching topics you are interested in (using these types of sources) and update articles accordingly. As your UserPage doesn't tell me anything about your interests/knowledge, I can't really give more specific advice. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * ok thnkas Iljhgtn (talk) 17:44, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * i like writing about ships, both USA naval warships and UK warships mostly, but ships of other nations would interest me as well. Anything naval ship themed. Iljhgtn (talk) 21:03, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iljhgtn It sounds as though you should explore the Projects related to that at WP:WikiProject Transport/Maritime transport task force and maybe join its membership list. I don't know exactly how active they are but you could certainly ask on their Talk page or via an existing member. There is also an active Project on  maritime warfare. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * cool i will do that Iljhgtn (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

DYK Patricia Davies
Thanks for your help Michael and sincere apologies for causing extra work. I went to Template:Did you know nominations/Patricia Davies... but cannot see how to change /edit things there. For example how to add a better source if the current one is not good. There is no edit button. I've tried clicking here or there but to no avail? Someone else has already improved things luckily but I have no idea how they did it. Balance person (talk) 11:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Balance person The page is Template:Did you know nominations/Patricia Davies (cryptographer) as already mentioned. You can't use the visual editor there, only the source editor works and there is an "Edit source" tab as usual. Someone has already commented and seems to think the hook is fine with minor update to the correct Act (1911, 1920 or 1939?). I was the one who tweaked the hook to include both sisters: see the "View history" tab as on all Wikipedia pages. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. I don't actually know which date of the act they signed but will endeavour to find out. Balance person (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * OK I think it is done. Many thanks.Balance person (talk) 14:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Mike. You kindly suggested that I keep in touch as the DYK for Patricia Davies progresses. And I notice that the person reviewing it for DYK has asked for help as it is the first one they have done. I don't know if they have done enough for the DYK to progress or if the DYK is now in limbo? I am sure I cannot do anything about it myself. But is this something you would be able to help with? I am not sure if there is a time limit on these things or not? There will be some protocol about it I am sure!  Balance person (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Balance person No need to worry. The DYK has passed its review and progressed to a queue from which I guess it will be about 2 weeks to reach the Mainpage. The reviewer was a relative newcomer to approving DYK, so mentioned that when OKaying it. There will be plenty of other eyes on it (including an admin) who will intervene if they think there is a problem but the chances of that are very low in my opinion. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mike. I knew you would know! Balance person (talk) 13:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from SaeedBama (09:03, 6 July 2023)
Hello, How can I protect a page from editing? What is the documents or requirements for doing that?

Thank you SAEED --SaeedBama (talk) 09:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @SaeedBama Please read WP:PROTECT carefully and come back with further questions in this thread if necessary. It is difficult for me to give better advice unless you mention the article where you think page protection may be needed. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from Iamshield on WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk (11:53, 17 July 2023)
How can I submit my draft --Iamshield (talk) 11:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Iamshield. I don't see any draft in your contributions, only a couple of minor edits prior to this question. Where did you save/publish it? There are very full instructions for writing articles at this link but beware: writing a complete article is quite difficult for a newcomer. See also this essay. If you have further questions, just add them here in this thread. Best wishes. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Viriditoxin
Aoidh (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from Principaltill2014 (19:07, 29 July 2023)
Hello Michael,

How can we go about correcting misinformation on the West Ranch High School Page?

I tried to correct it myself and did not do it correctly. I now understand why I was banned from editing on Wikipedia and I apologize. Can you make this change, or direct my how to request that it be made?

West Ranch High School Stevenson Ranch California

This information is incorrect: Since the high school did not have a mascot at the time, the class of 2008 chose the wildcat to represent the school and because the movie High School Musical, which had come out 2 years prior to West Ranch’s first graduating class.

How can we change it to this? The school mascot and colors were selected by a steering committee of student leaders in the spring of 2004, prior to the opening of the school.

Thank you so much,

Robert Vincent --Principaltill2014 (talk) 19:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Robert Most of the relevant details are now on your own Talk Page. Let me try to explain, as an uninvolved editor here. First, it would help you to change your mindset from "West Ranch High School's Page" (implying ownership, as if a school's website) to "a Wikipedia article about the school, written entirely based on sources like these".: please read the linked items. Once you've read those, you should understand why your edits to West Ranch High School were reverted by experienced editors: they came across too much like promoting the school rather than neutrally stating some facts, with references. To many people's surprise, Wikipedia isn't interested just in truth but gives more weight to its core policy of verifiability. Hence what you "know", or I "know" is irrelevant - articles here are based on what's been published in reliable sources.
 * So, what can you do to add to the article? As someone with a conflict of interest, you should not edit it directly but instead make any suggestions you have at Talk:West Ranch High School, stating in a simple way what you think should be added/removed or reworded. To draw attention to your suggestion(s) there is a template you can use to be found at the link edit COI. If you click on that link, you'll see how exactly to structure the request. Make sure you provide references for any new material: the school's own website is fine for some types of information (see this guidance). You should find that your request is handled within a few days. By all means come back to me in this thread if you have more questions. I would also advise that you place a COI template on your own User Page - currently the redlink User:Principaltill2014, which you create by clicking on that redlink and adding something. I suggest, at minimum, placing  there. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:09, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Michael D. Turnbull. Thank you for your work on 3-(Difluoromethyl)-1-methyl-1H-pyrazole-4-carboxylic acid. User:SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;   (contact)   21:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, @SunDawn. DYK is the next step, along the lines of "DYK ....that six agricultural fungicides are amides of a specific pyrazole carboxylic acid (shown)? Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Question from KeshiaYarvell (17:27, 5 August 2023)
Hi Yarvell Acquanetta Cheatum I 'm star artist actor with my voice my mic on both side of my face area and stomach one on my upper tigth on right side of the leg; I need to add my information to my page Companies is looking for my information with my net worth KESHIA is my nickname and it's spelled all kind of ways need help with finishing  my page Yarvell is my real name. My marriage show up on some of my information Yarvell Scott I'm DIVORCED 12/09/2014 Kimberly Michelle Pate is on my information need to looking this one ASAP --KeshiaYarvell (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @KeshiaYarvell If you are this person you can forget about having an article about you in Wikipedia. There simply are not enough sources meeting these criteria that are published about you. Wikipedia is not to be used for promotion. Stick to social media for that. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Tea House - Show me the way
send you the talk : @Theroadislong Thanks. As Turnbull commented, really speaking, actually I want to update my Article:Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education. But I have some doubts and so I ask him few questions at the Teahouse Platform. Supriyomj16022008 (talk) 17:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @Supriyomj16022008 Please don't continue in this section of my Talk Page. I've made another comment in the Teahouse thread and you can ask more questions there if necessary. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Question from EleniXDD (10:31, 30 August 2023)
Dear mentor,

I just translated a page from English to Chinese. When I tried to link my translated page

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%80%8C%E6%A6%AE%E8%80%80%E8%97%9D%E8%A1%93%E3%80%8D%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E5%8B%B3%E7%AB%A0%E7%8D%8E%E7%AB%A0

to its original page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_for_Merit_to_Culture_%E2%80%93_Gloria_Artis

, the page says I have no authority to do so, or the page has limit edit. I am looking for help or advice. Thank you so much.

Yours sincerely, Eleni --EleniXDD (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @EleniXDD Nice to have a question at the limits of my competence! I'm not sure how much of this stuff you know already, so I'll work through it slowly. Links between the multiple language versions of Wikipedia are handled in Wikidata, so the page you need to edit is this one for Q1702885. That page is protected to prevent vandalism and can only be edited by accounts with >10 edits and over 4 days old. You may not have passed that threshold when you tried to do the edit but as far as I can tell, you should be fine now. But there is an oddity in Wikidata I don't understand. When I navigate to a Wikidata page such as this one for a list article I created recently I see "edit" icons all over the place, including top right where I could add another language link if a foreign-language version of my list was available. On Q1702885 I can see no such "edit" options, despite the fact I can readily edit other standard semi-protected pages and I already have 31 edits to Wikidata! My conclusion is that semi-protection in Wikidata limits editing much more than it does elsewhere. I think that your best bet is to contact Wikidata editors at Wikidata:Wikidata:Project_chat, summarising what we've said here. I'll be interested to know what they say.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Mike,
 * Thank you so much for your detailed explanation and advice XD. I have concluded the scenario and submitted it as a bug in the Project_chat. Hopefully, there will be a solution to the problem, and I will update you on that. Have a nice day!
 * Regards,
 * Eleni EleniXDD (talk) 15:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, they have replied and edited the source for me. The reply is as follows, "That item was is protected and you are not autoconfirmed at wikidata. I've done that for you." I have double checked the criteria for autoconfirmed users --- at least 4 days of age and at least 50 edits (90 days and 100 edits if editing through a Tor node) EleniXDD (talk) 15:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @EleniXDD That's interesting. Semi-protected locks here on Wikipedia (see my link above) allow people with 10+ edits and 4+ day-old accounts to edit. Wikidata seems not only to require 50+ edits but these must be edits at Wikidata itself: which even I don't have and I've been editing Wikipedia for 5+ years! Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have further added a comment, asking for the edit requirement for that specific page. Looking forward to the reply. I am also curious about the exact requirement as well. I will update you when they reply me XD EleniXDD (talk) 15:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The reply is as follows "Wikidata has a 50 edits requirement to be autoconfirmed, not 10. Each site calculate edit counts and account age separately, not added. You can check your account age and edit count on each site at here"
 * I guess they mean the requirement is 50 edit, which I didn't meet. EleniXDD (talk) 03:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 50 edits in wikidata*
 * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth?target
 * This is the website they gave me to check all my edits in each site. EleniXDD (talk) 06:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You can also check this one: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång The bit that's still mystifying me is where Eleni actually asked and was answered at Wikidata: their contribution history shows nothing and I can't find any relevant stuff on the chat page.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * ...logged out edits? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You might suppose so but I still can't see any relevant discussion at Wikidata:Wikidata:Project chat nor in the edit history of the editor there who made the link to zh wikipedia on Q1702885, assuming that they were the same person. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * hahahaha, actually I asked in the bug report page of the project_chat. Here it goes.
 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T345264
 * It is just now I realised in the link you sent me earlier, down below there is a discussion section. I kind of ignored it at first, and went to the bug report. EleniXDD (talk) 03:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång Interesting! Phabricator edits are not shown in the global contributions at the xtools link. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hah! I have 70, but then again, I'm at 10+ years, so my account is older than, for example, Wikidata. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Question from EleniXDD (07:57, 1 September 2023)
Dear Mike, There is another problem that I want to seek advice from you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Duan_Duan This is an article page I created yesterday, usually when article has been created, if you search key word + wiki in google, it can be shown. However, when I try to search this article in google or other browser, it never shows up. It can only be shown if I search it internally in Wiki. I wonder if it is because I accidentally made it as "Draft" in the beginning.

I am looking forward to your advice. Thanks

Regards, Eleni --EleniXDD (talk) 07:57, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @EleniXDD This is entirely normal on the English Wikipedia. Editors like you (or me) can directly create articles in the main encyclopaedia without going through the review that drafts get if the WP:AfC process is used. However, such articles are marked as "no-index" to search engines until they have been reviewed and approved by a group of experienced editors called the new pages patrol. Articles will by default be indexed 6 months after their creation in the unlikely event the NPP miss them. Some editors (not me or you yet) ask to have the "autopatrolled" right: if granted, that means the articles they create get indexed immediately. Looking at Liu Duan Duan, I'm afraid that you may find that the NPP have a harsh opinion and may WP:DRAFTIFY it. As it stands currently, it is poorly sourced: normally articles need at least three separate citations that meet these criteria. So I suggest you quickly try to improved it to that standard. Mike Turnbull (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Mike,
 * Thank you for your insightful feedback, I will definitely go and modify the page.
 * There leads to another problem --- I rename the page, so now there's two. Although before the action, it is stated that when pressed the old one, it will be redirected to the new one, unfortunately this doesn't work all the time. Sometimes article involve the name Liu Duan Duan directs to the old page, Do you think I should work on both pages or I just leave the old one alone. Or should  I propose to delete the old page? Thanks a lot XD
 * old one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Duanduan
 * new one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Duan_Duan EleniXDD (talk) 11:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @EleniXDD I see that you have tagged Liu Duanduan for speedy deletion, which is fine. The alternative would have been to convert that page to a WP:Redirect, which would have been reasonable if this was a likely search term that readers might accidentally or deliberately type. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all the constructive advice XDD I have really learnt a lot. I am so lucky to have a mentor like you :)) EleniXDD (talk) 14:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

You've got mail!
TheLonelyPather (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Possibly helpful information about IPv6 addresses
Hi! I came across your reply at the Teahouse where you mention that the contribution history of the IP editor has no draft associated with it - you can often find contributions that appear missing for an editor contributing from an IPv6 address by adding /64 to the end of the URL to their contributions page. For this particular editor, that would be Special:Contributions/2601:5C0:C380:4980:BD25:9843:27D3:B53C/64, which does list a draft. The /64 IP range is the typical size assigned to a single network, and because ISPs typically assign IP addresses dynamically, a single user is likely to contribute from many IPs in the range over time. Tollens (talk) 01:06, 9 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @Tollens Thanks, I was vaguely aware of that but I'll now put a reminder on my UserPage. The draft in question Draft:Carol A. Mullen has a rather chequered history and I've commented on it several times before. It is currently being made worse, not better! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Waxworker Said I Haven't Bring Any Reliable Sources
Waxworker said I haven't bring any reliable sources when I "Dollface" in "The Tom and Jerry Show (2014 TV series)" page and probably won't allows me to undo her removal. Dollface is actual character in "The Tom and Jerry Show (2014)" voiced by Julie Wittner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Tom_and_Jerry_Show_(2014_TV_series)#c-Waxworker-20230908222200-ElectricStormFire86-20230908221800 Can you talk to her? Because Dollface is an actual character in the Tom and Jerry franchise, not some kind of a fan made character. ElectricStormFire86 (talk) 22:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @ElectricStormFire86 It is pointless going to the Talk Pages of editors at the Teahouse who have been trying to help you. We are generalists, giving advice based on our knowledge of Wikipedia's procedures, not the specifics. As Colin has said, we advised you how to take this forward. We have no knowledge or interest in Tom and Jerry characters. If you can't achieve consensus with Waxworker, then dispute resolution tells you how to pursue this. The relevant Wikipedia policy is this one: you cannot add information you personally know to be true unless you can back that up with a published, reliable source you cite. If you can't find such a source, then regrettably the information cannot be included. It may surprise you to know that Wikipedia focuses on verifiability, not truth. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Did you got my message last night?
Did you got my message last night about Waxworker's unruly and seemingly unfair behavior saying that I had provided unreliable sources? ElectricStormFire86 (talk) 23:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes. However, no editor here is obliged to reply within a given time period, or even at all. We are in the main volunteers with lives outside of Wikipedia. On Talk Pages, reply times of up to a week are common, even for active editors like myself. That's why the best venues for seeking assistance are those like the Teahouse, which many experienced editors watch, so that general and accurate advice can be given quickly in almost all cases. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:13, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Nonmetal
Hi Mike

I have relisted Nonmetal at WP:FAC, if you have time to comment. Thank you, Sandbh (talk) 06:49, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Question from Imtiaz Hendrix (20:21, 30 September 2023)
How do I up load images --Imtiaz Hendrix (talk) 20:21, 30 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @Imtiaz Hendrix Most of the images used in Wikipedia are hosted at the sister Project, Wikimedia Commons, which has an upload wizard at this link: commons:Special:UploadWizard. The main mistake which new users make is to claim that they are uploading their "own work", when in fact they don't own the copyright to the image: copyright is usually owned by the person who took the photograph or drew the diagram, etc. You may not under any circumstances upload to Commons some random picture you found on the Internet. There are some very limited circumstances where images or logos are uploaded to the English Wikipedia for use only here: see WP:NONFREE for the (complicated!) rules. Do you want to upload something you took with your own camera? That's the simplest case. You might like also to tell me what you intend to do with your image, so I can give further advice. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

New message from Jo-Jo Eumerus
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Province of Canada map
Hi, thanks for the suggestion about the map of the Province of Canada that you gave me earlier this month. It's better than the existing one I found on the Commons. Have now uploaded it: File:Province of Canada.JamesWyld.ca1842.jpg  Appreciate your help! Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 18:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)


 * @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz Happy to have helped! Was there any reason you uploaded such a low-resolution version? The file at the archive source here can be expanded to full-screen (via green arrow) and then zoomed to show incredible detail and it would be nice to have one of the high-resolution versions on Commons. Mike Turnbull (talk) 20:44, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The reason is that I'm a techno-peasant! I'm barely able to upload stuff. What did I do wrong?  Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus, the uploaded version now has a grey bar along the bottom of it. I have no idea why, or how to crop it? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz I can upload a higher-resolution version in about 10 days: at present I'm on holiday with limited internet access! There is a good crop tool in Commons but I suggest you don't worry about that at present. If you go ahead and incorporate your current map in whichever article you had in mind, it will automatically update when I upload the better version. Mike Turnbull (talk) 07:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be great, thanks. No rush. I’m working on a draft article, which is the only place I’m using the map so far. Not sure when I’ll upload the draft to article space. Have a good vacation! Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 10:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Michael, the other editor that I asked about it has already fixed it: User:WikiPedant, who has been helpful in the past as well.  Thanks for pointing me to the Wyly map;  it's now uploaded without the bars.  Hope your holiday goes well. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 21:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Roger Starr has been accepted
 Roger Starr, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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Thanks again, and happy editing! 🇺🇦 Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Question from Spiritualsoul1969 (11:55, 8 November 2023)
Hello Michael, I am absolutely new to Wikipedia, I would highly appreciate if you could help me get started on posting my article related to spirituality. I am unable to load the images as well?

Thanks, Peace & Blessings --Spiritualsoul1969 (talk) 11:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Spiritualsoul1969 and welcome to Wikipedia. Your edit here is the only one I can see in your account's history. As a new editor I would recommend you use the articles for creation process to create a draft article (click that link for details). However wholly new editors who jump straight in to create articles often regret doing so. It is much more difficult than it may appear and my strong advice would be to start by helping to improve existing articles on topics that interest you e.g. spirituality or one of the articles in the Category:Spirituality: there are lots to choose from! In a moment, I'll add some useful links to your Talk Page but if you have further questions please post them here. Uploading images is for a later time: it won't influence whether or not any draft article is accepted, as that entirely depends on the notability of the subject as defined by Wikipedia. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * .... I see that someone else has added a number of links to your Talk Page, so there's no need for me to do so. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:25, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Question from Chloe Ashley Butac (12:17, 16 November 2023)
hello 👋

I'm Chloe Ashley Butac ❤️

Student and MAY I ask if how I can put an picture in this wikipedia --Chloe Ashley Butac (talk) 12:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Chloe and welcome to Wikipedia. There are two parts to adding pictures to articles. The first is to find a suitable image in the extensive collection held in Wikimedia Commons. You can use your Wikipedia account to upload your own pictures there if you can't find something suitable but it must be something you have taken with your own camera or drawn yourself because of copyright: most images you might find on the internet are not suitably licensed. Commons has lots of Help Pages about this. My own contributions are at this link to Commons. The second step is to edit the article to include the code that specifies which existing picture is to be used. There are very full instructions for this at Help:Pictures. As you have not made any other edits from your account yet, I suggest you start getting used to how things work in general by beginning the tutorial at Help:Introduction. I'll also place some introductory links on your Talk Page. By all means come back here to ask me about anty details you are unsure of. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:41, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

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Editor experience invitation
Hi Michael :) I'm looking to interview people here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Question from Mrhutch83 (00:01, 3 December 2023)
Just signed up and saw that I get you as a mentor! Such a cool way of doing that! No specific quesitons rn but I love that Wiki did this! :) --Mrhutch83 (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Can you reverse Sukavich Rangsitpol ?
User:RJFF/Thita Manitkul The user who reverse his biography is the same person who had hidden his daughter biography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1188421338

This should be the version that collect ? His education reform brought many awards to Thailand .How could UNESCO sources is unreliable? ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 14:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @ทีมกฎหมาย You should take up the issue on the article's Talk Page: Talk:Sukavich Rangsitpol to reach a WP:CONSENSUS about content. User:RJFF has been following our normal bold, revert, discuss process. I think that their concern was that your large addition of details about the Golden Triangle has little to do with the biography, and is WP:UNDUE in this context. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Then he should delete only my edit but This politician was our education reformer .He delete everything.ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 14:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @ทีมกฎหมาย The edit summary was "Revert back to NPOV, reliably sourced, concise, well-formated version in intelligible English" so RJFF clearly thought that the article as it then stood was deficient in many ways. The way forward is still to use its Talk Page. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you think the following is not reliable sources? If is not well formatted version in intelligible,he could correct the formatted but he deleted the information and reverse to deformation version.
 * == Awards and recognition ==
 * 1995 Thailand Education Reform
 * 1996 "During his trip to the Philippines, H.E. Mr. Sukavich Rangsitpol was conferred an Honorary Degree of Doctor of Education by the Philippine Normal University. His will to reform education and strong leadership in educational management were highly commended."
 * 1997 ACEID awards for excellence in education
 * 1998 Educational innovation and information ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Golden Triangle (Southeast Asia)
The United Nations (VIENNA) announced that “South East Asian and Chinese Ministers Step up Joint Efforts To Fight Drug Production, Trafficking, Abuse Cambodia, China, Lao PDR, Myanmar, Thailand, Viet Nam Endorse UN Initiatives “ The Golden Triangle was one of the world's two largest opium producing areas in 1995. Line 117: Because of his education reform for all Thai children,he have journeyed tens of thousands of kilometers, visited thousands of schools and talked to tens of  thousands of students teachers and school administrators. While he was in the northern Thailand he learned that the UNDCP, the subregion has been experiencing a recent upsurge in abuse of heroin and synthetic stimulants. After he help Them updated their drug control action plan to better reflect the current abuse, production and trafficking patterns in the region as well as recent developments in national and regional drug control policies mandated by the earlier plan.The earlier plan was adopted at a ministerial meeting held in Beijing in 1995. The UNDCP ‘s 11 projects in the areas of demand reduction, crop reduction and law enforcement. Was cooperating by the six countries since 1995. The delegation also suggested that investments in infrastructure and hotels would be better choice in the globalization world. There had been reported that the Golden Triangle (Southeast Asia) ‘s poppy cultivation decreased more than 80 percent from 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1188421338 ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 15:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC) ทีมกฎหมาย (talk) 15:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @ทีมกฎหมาย Please do not post article content on my Talk Page. I can read the contents of your edit perfectly well in the history of Sukavich Rangsitpol. I have added talkref templates to your edits here so that the references will stay with the content they refer to. I have no knowledge of, or interest in, the subject of the article and you must discuss that solely on its Talk Page, not here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Question from MissCollegeFootball (16:58, 7 December 2023)
Hello Michael, Wiki shows the Nov 7, 1916 football score between Mississippi Normal College (now Southern Miss) and Mississippi College (MC) as MC 75, Southern Miss 0. However, MC records show MC 90, MS Normal (USM) 0. I'm highly certain MC's record is the correct one. Further, the game was stopped at the end of the 3rd quarter with MC leading 90-0. --MissCollegeFootball (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @MissCollegeFootball and welcome to Wikipedia. The edit here is the only one you have made, so I can't tell which article where you saw that information which you believe is incorrect. We discuss such issues on the Talk Page of the article in question, or alternatively you can edit the article to change the information to what you think is correct: provided you also add a reliable source for it (a process described here). Note that your own knowledge isn't enough, as sources we cite have to be published. In a moment, I'll add some links to your Talk Page which will help as an introduction to Wikipedia. Mike Turnbull (talk) 18:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @MissCollegeFootball I've now tracked down the source for the score in our article 1916 Mississippi Normal Normalites football team. I'm afraid it confirms the 75-0 score. If that's wrong, you need to take that up with the website. Wikipedia relies on verifiabity, not truth. Mike Turnbull (talk) 22:03, 8 December 2023 (UTC)